SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
AncientGrimoire
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Grim
None of the multiple resolution scenes from Remake got mentions in the story after they happened, but they were important for character development, and each helped move the character’s and their relationships along. They build from them, and it’s the same with the Gold Saucer dates.
None of them have much bearing on the plot going forward, like in the original, because going forward like you said things move very quickly plot wise, and the narrative is pushed to the front.
But the resolutions and gold saucer dates are essential for ALL the characters involved, and help pave the way forward for their respective developments and arc endpoints in Part 3.
starcape91
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- starcape91
Takes like that always seem to come from “non shippers”. And I think generally, they’re being dishonest about not being shippers lol
A lot of these same people are Cloud x Sephiroth shippers too. I’m sorry but what? Sephiroth murdered Cloud’s mother. That’s disgusting to me. Can someone explain the thought process behind that?
A lot of these same people are Cloud x Sephiroth shippers too. I’m sorry but what? Sephiroth murdered Cloud’s mother. That’s disgusting to me. Can someone explain the thought process behind that?
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Two hot characters who are seemingly obsessed with each other which is interpreted as homoeroticism? I honestly don't think many of them put much more thought into it than that, lol.
starcape91
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- starcape91
Ah, okay.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Seem like copium to me.
And yeah, there just isn’t enough time post-GS for the dust to settle. In fact, have a feeling that Tifa and Cloud won’t have a chance to talk about it until the Highwind scene now since Tifa isn’t gonna bring it up while Cloud is mourning Aerith and he’ll break down in the Northern Cave.
Last edited:
AncientGrimoire
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Grim
One thing I’m seeing a lot at the moment is complete and utter denial about what Zack was to Aerith prior to Remake and Rebirth.
He wasn’t just a crush, a guy she liked, or just her first boyfriend.
He was her first love.
She never got closure on their relationship ending (due to Zack literally being imprisoned in a comatose state in a Mako tank for five years)
She wrote him 89 letters over the course of those five years
Like forget Cloud for a moment, to deny Aerith is going to have complicated feelings about Zack given she never knew what happened to him, a man she loved, is to deny a big part of her character and it honestly makes me question if these people are really fans of her if they wilfully chose to select what supports their theory over what is concretely established in the text
She loved Zack. We don’t even know if she ever told Zack she loved him (outside of the letters he never received)
She did tell Cloud that Zack was her first love. And replied “maybe” as to whether she still has feelings for him.
Like they were straight up unambiguous about what Aerith felt for Zack.
They were and have since reinforced the ambiguity as to the depths of Aerith’s feelings for Cloud however. She states there is a difference between liking and liking. She knew these would be her final moments with Cloud. If there was ever a time to be unambiguous it would have been here.
Zack’s still around. He wants the worlds to unite again. They didn’t clear up Aerith being able to move on from Zack. And there’s still a third game to go.
At least those who see the Cloud and Tifa relationship as being where things will inevitably end up at the end don’t deny the connection and intimacy of both their respective relationships with Aerith. But on the opposite end there is a lot of that going on for Aerith.
TL;DR
Tifa was never a “threat” to the Cloud and Aerith relationship. If there is a spanner in the works (
) then it’s Zack. Aerith hasn’t resolved things with him, and neither has Cloud.
He wasn’t just a crush, a guy she liked, or just her first boyfriend.
He was her first love.
She never got closure on their relationship ending (due to Zack literally being imprisoned in a comatose state in a Mako tank for five years)
She wrote him 89 letters over the course of those five years
Like forget Cloud for a moment, to deny Aerith is going to have complicated feelings about Zack given she never knew what happened to him, a man she loved, is to deny a big part of her character and it honestly makes me question if these people are really fans of her if they wilfully chose to select what supports their theory over what is concretely established in the text
She loved Zack. We don’t even know if she ever told Zack she loved him (outside of the letters he never received)
She did tell Cloud that Zack was her first love. And replied “maybe” as to whether she still has feelings for him.
Like they were straight up unambiguous about what Aerith felt for Zack.
They were and have since reinforced the ambiguity as to the depths of Aerith’s feelings for Cloud however. She states there is a difference between liking and liking. She knew these would be her final moments with Cloud. If there was ever a time to be unambiguous it would have been here.
Zack’s still around. He wants the worlds to unite again. They didn’t clear up Aerith being able to move on from Zack. And there’s still a third game to go.
At least those who see the Cloud and Tifa relationship as being where things will inevitably end up at the end don’t deny the connection and intimacy of both their respective relationships with Aerith. But on the opposite end there is a lot of that going on for Aerith.
TL;DR
Tifa was never a “threat” to the Cloud and Aerith relationship. If there is a spanner in the works (
asides from Masamune
I mean to be fair, Aerith’s GS Date does tie-in very well with events that occur in Chapter 13 and Chapter 14 but that’s primarily because those chapters serve as a conclusion to Aerith’s character arc as far as we know. From that “non-shipper”s perspective, I can understand their opinion that Aerith’s date is important since it is arguably the most relevant to events during the final chapter.
But like @AncientGrimoire wrote, each date is important! The GS Dates are meant to build upon and add context to each character’s story and relationship with Cloud. The Temple of the Ancients and the Forgotten Capitol were the conclusion of Aerith’s storyline (at least in the OG game) so her date should provide more context to those scenes (and it did to an amazing level)
I haven’t seen any of these “takes” yet (although I’m sure I will since I have a Twitter) but what are these references afterwards? Weren’t there people just yesterday saying that Tifa’s GS Date doesn’t count because it was optional? Then how come one GS Date is canon but the others aren’t?
Unless Part 3 explicitly confirms that ”Cloud went on a date with X”, we have to just play through the rest of the game after Chapter 12 with the notion that all of the GS Dates have possibly occurred.
Seriously tho, I’d be happy to change my perspective if someone can share what these references are if anyone has them or can elaborate.
AncientGrimoire
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Grim
In respect to Aerith
There’s a lot of referring to the interlocked handholding. It happens in their Gold Saucer date, and then after the battle with Sephiroth, right before Aerith fades away into that wispy Lifestream mist. Plus Aerith’s date is the one shown playing in the credits montage. Thus why it’s being heralded as the “canon” date.
Forgetting as well the non-optional Gongaga scenes with Cloud and Tifa, and just Cloud and Tifa’s relationship in general.
Seriously, at the end of the day you just do not see the same outright denial of Cloud and Aerith’s relationship from those who favour the Cloud and Tifa relationship. But those who see Cloud and Aerith as “endgame” have to wilfully deny and ignore non-optional scenes, cherry pick lines from songs and even the names of trophies and the images used for them to back up the canon that’s in their heads about Cloud and Aerith reuniting together at the end of Part 3.
Again completely denying Tifa and Zack exist in this story as well.
This is Final Fantasy not Disney smdh
I’m just staying off Twitter from now on, the conversations taking place over there are insane.
Forgetting as well the non-optional Gongaga scenes with Cloud and Tifa, and just Cloud and Tifa’s relationship in general.
Seriously, at the end of the day you just do not see the same outright denial of Cloud and Aerith’s relationship from those who favour the Cloud and Tifa relationship. But those who see Cloud and Aerith as “endgame” have to wilfully deny and ignore non-optional scenes, cherry pick lines from songs and even the names of trophies and the images used for them to back up the canon that’s in their heads about Cloud and Aerith reuniting together at the end of Part 3.
Again completely denying Tifa and Zack exist in this story as well.
This is Final Fantasy not Disney smdh
I’m just staying off Twitter from now on, the conversations taking place over there are insane.
starcape91
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- starcape91
Saw the Gongaga scene where Cloud talks to Aerith after meeting Zack's parents. It's full of tension but Cloud does not seem jealous at all to me? Am I missing something here?
luminous03
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- Play
Wait, people state that cloud was jealous? I thought he was comforting her because she seems to miss him so much
AncientGrimoire
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Grim
The tension isn’t coming from jealousy in my opinion. It’s coming from the actual long established fact that at this point in the story, Cloud still is suffering from his crisis of identity, and his memories of Nibelheim, Zack, and what happened to him. It’s made even more tense by the fact that anytime Zack is even mentioned prior it’s triggered Cloud’s response where what happened in reality with what he thinks happened come into conflict.
Gongaga is a non-optional visit this time around so they’ve expanded on and gone into more depth the crisis Cloud has with his memories of Zack and Nibelheim, illustrated in a lot of his interactions with Tifa who this time around is trying to help Cloud figure out what happened more early on (without obviously giving the whole reveal away, as that can literally only happen when Tifa for herself is able to see in Cloud’s subconscious that he was at Nibelheim but as an infantryman)
When you also throw in Sephiroth gaslighting and manipulating Cloud about his crisis and memory problems, there’s naturally going to be immense tension and fraught conflict in these scenes and conversations, especially with Aerith, who again is naturally going to want to talk about Zack because she doesn’t know what happened to him.
To view all of this in context and to just say Cloud was jealous is, again, wilful ignorance.
Gongaga is a non-optional visit this time around so they’ve expanded on and gone into more depth the crisis Cloud has with his memories of Zack and Nibelheim, illustrated in a lot of his interactions with Tifa who this time around is trying to help Cloud figure out what happened more early on (without obviously giving the whole reveal away, as that can literally only happen when Tifa for herself is able to see in Cloud’s subconscious that he was at Nibelheim but as an infantryman)
When you also throw in Sephiroth gaslighting and manipulating Cloud about his crisis and memory problems, there’s naturally going to be immense tension and fraught conflict in these scenes and conversations, especially with Aerith, who again is naturally going to want to talk about Zack because she doesn’t know what happened to him.
To view all of this in context and to just say Cloud was jealous is, again, wilful ignorance.
Correct me if I’m wrong but
aren’t the sections of the Gold Saucer date that they show in the end credits solely the parts of the Loveless Play? Technically, Aerith plays Princess Rosa in her date, Barett’s date, Nanaki’s date, and Cait Sith’s date, so does that mean those 3 GS dates are also canon? XD
AncientGrimoire
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Grim
I don’t know as I myself haven’t actually seen the credits but
From what I was seeing on Twitter the claim alone was that Aerith’s date, whether it was the play or the sky wheel, was shown in the credits so it’s canon 
But these same people are also using trophy names and the pictures of said trophies as also being evidence to support their argument
But won’t use any of the dialogue from the church scene or anything from the Sector 5 date at all, I wonder why that is?
But these same people are also using trophy names and the pictures of said trophies as also being evidence to support their argument
But won’t use any of the dialogue from the church scene or anything from the Sector 5 date at all, I wonder why that is?
shady
Pro Adventurer
The problem with the “optional vs canon” debate is that you can’t cherry pick what is considered canon and what is considered optional depending on what your ship is. You cannot have your cake and eat it. If you consider the Aerith GS date to be canon and the Tifa one to not have existed because it’s just optional then that means you have to erase all the optional moments between Cloud and Aerith as having never existed too, because they are just optional, if that is the logic we are following.
I also think both Aerith and Tifa’s dates have a case for what is the “canon” date.
I also think both Aerith and Tifa’s dates have a case for what is the “canon” date.
It’s true if you go on Aerith’s HA date it ties in nicer with the ending with the handholding and such, but if you go on Tifa’s HA date it ties in nicer with the rest of the game prior to the ending, what with C&T’s whole buildup, the nearly kiss, then the actual kiss. In this respect I can see why the ending feels a little tacked on in comparison to the rest of the game. Obviously the end had to be Aerith’s big moment so it was never going to go any other way, but it’s certainly jarring juxtaposed against the non optional relationship building between Cloud and Tifa during the game — this is of course if you consider anything that happened between Cloud and Aerith at the end to be romantic in nature, because what happens all game between Cloud and Tifa is undeniably taken from a romantic tropes 101 book
starcape91
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- starcape91
Slightly off topic but I’m at the part where
Also interesting that this time between Aerith and Tifa is referred to as a date as well. Maybe they should’ve replaced the word “date” with “outing” for all these little things. I think Aerith just calls everything a date lol
Tifa and Aerith go on a date at Costa. You can switch back and forth between who you want to control. One of the times when you switch from Aerith to Tifa, Aerith will say: “Guide me, O Tifa” and Tifa will respond “Come, my child.” And it’s hilarious and wonderful.
shady
Pro Adventurer
She does call everything a date yes, and these interactions are great, she often has them with the other party members, I think that’s where she shines most
Someonesbunny
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- Rabbit
Its strange that the people who level this constant nitpicking about canonicity within the selection in game scenes are almost always including advertising, credits slideshows, and game cameos, but conveniently leaving out the canon within the novels and supplemental materials. Shouldn't that play into how we view these characters as well?
Within the game, the universal experience so far has been that there is undeniable romantic tension between Cloud and Tifa but we know that this stems from their pasts with one another - some of this outlined in the "Traces of Two Pasts" novel and, it appears, the more recent "2000 Gil to the Hero" novel as well - and post-game lore which indicate that they actually continue in this relationship after all of the events of the game - "On the Way to a Smile."
Taking a step back from the minute details, we can already see the writing on the wall and, in my opinion, requires either an incredible level of stubbornness at best, or dishonesty at worst, to suggest otherwise.
Within the game, the universal experience so far has been that there is undeniable romantic tension between Cloud and Tifa but we know that this stems from their pasts with one another - some of this outlined in the "Traces of Two Pasts" novel and, it appears, the more recent "2000 Gil to the Hero" novel as well - and post-game lore which indicate that they actually continue in this relationship after all of the events of the game - "On the Way to a Smile."
Taking a step back from the minute details, we can already see the writing on the wall and, in my opinion, requires either an incredible level of stubbornness at best, or dishonesty at worst, to suggest otherwise.
Hix
Pro Adventurer
Nothing ever changes.
The argument goes like this: if we pretend Aerith didn't die, ignore the scenes were Cloud is disinterested in a romantic relationship with her, pretend like scenes where Cloud is interested in a romantic relationship with Tifa don't count, pray that Zack just goes away again and disregard any/all supplementary material for the franchise then obviously Clerith is canon (spoiler: it still isn't)
There's less people that think like this now, thankfully, but there'll always be some absolutely willing to do anything - even deconstruct Cloud, Zack, Tifa and Aerith's entire characters and the media they are contained in - to insure their ship is the truth.
This isn't coming from a place of maliciousness, but delusion. People start from a position of "CA is canon and is the singular most important part of the entire Final Fantasy VII franchise" and reinterpret (but mostly just ignore) everything else in light of that.
I think the simplest explanation is the Devs intended for the player to experience all the GS dates. There's key character development in all of them and they actually kinda compliment each other.
Indeed, that's the LTD in a microcosm. CT comes along and says fine, have all your CA moments, it doesn't bother me. CA has to systematically attack every single CT moment to validate their ship.
shady
Pro Adventurer
Pretty much, but alot of people are holding onto the
ending, the songs, and the hand holding that they will come together in P3. Ignoring that they’d have to walk back all the romantic develolment of Cloud and Tifa in P2, Aeriths uncertainty over Zack, make Cloud a complete asshole to Tifa (which is totally OOC) and completely ignore Zacks existence and Advent Children so like…
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
We really should stop calling it the Love Triangle Debate. It now includes four characters, not three.
Although I suppose Tifa and Zack have no interest in each other whatsoever and will probably never interact so maybe not…
Although I suppose Tifa and Zack have no interest in each other whatsoever and will probably never interact so maybe not…
thetriplerhyme
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- thetriplerhyme
- I somehow its sad but Aerith gettin a lot of backlash as a character instead of her death. I thought I was hearing things~ They released TOTP where Tifa tells her story about Cloud and her background and also Aerith as a child and her story. I mean the girls know each other hearts but she's constantly confessing and taking Cloud on multiple dates.
Sadly people are calling Aerti calling it as superficial friendship.
" You know your friend's heart and somehow knew Cloud's too and yet you take him on dates, wrote a letter and confess your love for him. I mean how superficial friendship" - a bit sad to hear this from a true CA fan.
billy22
Pro Adventurer
Literally, just ask them why Aerith doesn't get any "optional" kissing in this game. That is the major blow that they can't dance around.
The HA Highwind scene in the next game will 100% have some kissing in it. Whether it's still optional I couldn't say, but if Aerith doesn't get some smooching of her own? Oh boy.
What a strange message for Square to be sending. Cloud kissing Tifa in two separate games, and yet he doesn't seem to be interested in doing the same with Aerith, the girl he supposedly is actually in love with.
Empyrea
Pro Adventurer
A shame, really. Tifa/ Zack is my crack BroTP.
I can imagine Zack asking Tifa to join him for some workout (most likely squats) because he wants to talk about Aerith and maybe ask what he could get her for a special occasion. Tifa takes that chance to ask stuff about Cloud while they're at it. Then Cloud and Aerith find them a little later, and Cloud just sighs while Aerith comments on how they get along well with a wink and a giggle to Cloud before inviting them all to a double date.
Empyrea
Pro Adventurer
Sadly, I can sort of understand the backlash. I personally think Aerith is just really, really flirtatious and is just trying to gauge her feelings for Cloud. But honestly, that's kinda Remake's fault, I think. While it's possibly not the intended read, it can definitely come off as a bad thing because Remake implied she knew. Ask anyone with no context of FF7 and most of them would probably say they'd sooner drop her than try to understand why she's flirting with a guy she knows her friend is interested in.
In the social circles I've been in, that type of thing is considered underhanded.