SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[shady]

Spoiler: Question

Has anybody with better lip reading skills that mine been able to make out what it is Aerith mouths to Tifa just after Cloud and Tifa’s almost kiss in Gongaga and Tifa opens the door to find Yuffie, Cait Sith, and Aerith listening in?

Not in the slightest, i’m torn between it’s really important otherwise why blank it, or it’s just something meant to be understood between two women in the moment and it’s of no consequence to us. Either way considering what Aerith does later it rubs me the wrong way cause she clearly knows what happened in that room, it’s confusing as hell

 

[Maidenofwar]

I don't know for sure but someone was saying in the other thread it was "good luck" or something though they might just have been speculating.

Random musings -

You know for me part of the appeal of CA especially from original OG to me was eventually you could move on with a first love instead of being beholden to them for the rest of your life more specifically Aerith here, that in the end you are thinking of wanting to move on with another and that something different might happen there, in Aerith's case with someone different from first love even though initially she was curious about the similarities.

Something that also appealed to me was the idea as Aerith as independent living her own life that in the end she never really got to. So in the end if Cloud and Zack work together to save Aerith it should not be on a premise she will end up with either one of them.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Not in the slightest, i’m torn between it’s really important otherwise why blank it, or it’s just something meant to be understood between two women in the moment and it’s of no consequence to us. Either way considering what Aerith does later it rubs me the wrong way cause she clearly knows what happened in that room, it’s confusing as hell

Is this specifically in regard to the Sector 5 and church scene, or does Aerith do something else after Gongaga to make you think this?

I’m still very early in the game myself (the Grasslands is Final Fantasy VII’s equivalent to the Hinterlands from Dragon Age: Inquisition, and I mean that as the BIGGEST compliment also the party banter out in the field is giving me life) so will not be getting to these scenes and story beats any time soon and I’m trying to avoid out of context scene watching on YouTube but would appreciate some insights going forward

 

[thetriplerhyme]

You know for me part of the appeal of CA especially from original OG to me was eventually you could move on with a first love instead of being beholden to them for the rest of your life more specifically Aerith here, that in the end you are thinking of wanting to move on with another and that something different might happen there, in Aerith's case with someone different from first love even though initially she was curious about the similarities.

The destined encounter with Zack makes them becomes the irreplaceable existence to each other - Aerith's profile FFVII CC Ultimania.

People with similiar actions and new person may come but a Zack Fair for Aerith cannot be replaced not by anyone. This is the story written, that's why even with a new love ( even if she wanted to take it herself (although one-sided) - i guess just so she can move on ) in the end she cannot.

That last date is a proff that she cannot let go of it too ~ same way that Zack refuses to forget about Aerith even on last moment ( DMW )

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yes, but it doesn't mean I have to love it, or the idea of having two similar ships instead of two different ones, that's why I liked OG for having two different premises (childhood to lovers) and another. This was before the Crisis Core release.

 

[shady]

Is this specifically in regard to the Sector 5 and church scene, or does Aerith do something else after Gongaga to make you think this?

I’m still very early in the game myself (the Grasslands is Final Fantasy VII’s equivalent to the Hinterlands from Dragon Age: Inquisition, and I mean that as the BIGGEST compliment also the party banter out in the field is giving me life) so will not be getting to these scenes and story beats any time soon and I’m trying to avoid out of context scene watching on YouTube but would appreciate some insights going forward

Yeah specifically those scenes (and maybe after though that’s a whole different thing I think)

 

[shady]

Spoiler

The current discourse surround this LTD (obviously we know the major game progreession between C&T in the game culminating in the kiss) is about Cloud and Aerith interlocking fingers and how it means “koibito tsunagi” or “lovers tie” apparently, seemingly it’s a big thing in Japan? Like if they wanted the LTD to rumble on they certainly achieved it by giving both girls something. Would love anyone with more insight to chip in on this

 

[JaeKony]

Spoiler

The current discourse surround this LTD (obviously we know the major game progreession between C&T in the game culminating in the kiss) is about Cloud and Aerith interlocking fingers and how it means “koibito tsunagi” or “lovers tie” apparently, seemingly it’s a big thing in Japan? Like if they wanted the LTD to rumble on they certainly achieved it by giving both girls something. Would love anyone with more insight to chip in on this

Yup it’s a Japanese phrase and type of handholding westerners typically see a lot in anime. I’m not saying that you’re implying that it’s ONLY a big thing in Japan, but I think anyone who plays the game, even if they’re not aware of Eastern slang or terminology,

Spoiler

can see that the “interlocking handhold” between Cloud and Aerith is meant to be really intimate. I don’t really see why there needs to be discourse over it though. I’m happy that other enthusiastic fans like me were able to make a connection between their fav scenes in Rebirth and a Japanese term. However, I personally think that comparing “koibito tsunagi“ and kissing is like comparing apples to oranges if you get what I mean.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Spoiler

The current discourse surround this LTD (obviously we know the major game progreession between C&T in the game culminating in the kiss) is about Cloud and Aerith interlocking fingers and how it means “koibito tsunagi” or “lovers tie” apparently, seemingly it’s a big thing in Japan? Like if they wanted the LTD to rumble on they certainly achieved it by giving both girls something. Would love anyone with more insight to chip in on this

Spoiler

I don’t have any knowledge on that lovers tie thing myself, but it’s clear Rebirth went to great pains to establish the close connections Cloud forges with both women. But regardless of what happens, there’s still a third game left to resolve a lot of unrevealed story beats, especially concerning Cloud’s identity crisis and Zack’s fate. It’s telling that in Rebirth Aerith and Zack don’t properly interact, yet, as they’re saving that all for the third game. Same for the Lifestream and Highwind scenes for Cloud and Tifa, scenes which have already had the groundwork laid down by a lot of what happens in Rebirth.

I ultimately think it’s fair that both women got those important moments. It means fans of both can’t say that the character was either neglected or done a disservice, either by the stuff that happens in the main narrative, and the added optional stuff.

The distinction I think to make however going forward is that, while there’s no issue with the discourse being around one moment or another, if it’s convincing people that it means the narrative is going to go in their favoured direction, then that’s when I think it’s important to remember a few important factors.

Aerith dies, and says her farewells at the end.
She is of course going to have a part to play in Part 3, but they would have to bring her back to life for her to be a full party member again, which I don’t think they’ll do, given what’s been said by the developers and the nature of her final scenes itself. If their interlocked handholding is to be their final romantic moment after defeating Sephiroth, and the church scene acting as a coda or resolution to the story of their relationship that has been developed thus far, then I say it’s a good one, and from the majority of response from fans of Cloud and Aerith, it’s been a well received one.

Aerith never had this closure in the original.

The other major factor is, of course, Zack. There’s still a lot left unanswered and unresolved. His last line about worlds uniting heavily implies that the build up to him properly reuniting with Aerith will pay off in Part 3. They wouldn’t have laid all that groundwork in Rebirth for their to be no reunion between the two of them, and in what form that takes I can’t say, all I will say is I’m confident the developers know that after having done right by the Cloud and Aerith relationship in Rebirth, it’s time for their to also be a suitable conclusion and resolution to the Zack and Aerith one as well.

Lastly, and despite Tifa getting a lot more development and screen time in Rebirth, the major important and iconic plot points of her story and the story of her and Cloud is yet to come in Part 3. I think the discourse around then will be different to how it is now, because as the middle point of the trilogy, where Aerith is the inevitable focus and driving force of the story, it’s natural for her to be discussed a lot at the moment, and that of her relationship with Cloud which also has focus.

It needed to be there otherwise her death scene would lack impact.

Discussion as to whether the intended impact of that scene was delivered or not I think varies person to person given the complicated nature of how the scene ultimately plays out, but Aerith being placed prominently in a lot of the major scenes and plot points of the game is so that when she does die, and she won’t be alongside us anymore going forward, we feel that absence as we are meant to feel what Cloud and the party feels by her being gone.

Personally I’m enjoying my time with Aerith knowing like in the original she won’t be with us in part 3. And yeah I’ll miss her.

I’ll have a lot more to talk about in regards to Aerith’s characterisation the more I play, but a lot of my initial impressions and concerns are waning simply because I’ve always liked Aerith overall, I thought her character in Remake was excellent and while I was disappointed her memories were taken away and thus a lot of what made her unique in Remake I actually think it serves Rebirth’s story better by her not being omnipotent anymore, and her dynamics with all the other party members and not just Cloud is making me really enjoy the game so far.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Can I ask (to shady) what you were expecting Aerith to do after

Spoiler

she and Cloud were cast off into the sky at the end of Temple of the Ancients?

 

[shady]

I’m not sure what you mean exactly?

Spoiler

My point was just that Aerith seems to know whats happening between C&T but from later down the line that doesn’t seem to matter at all, it was just odd writing to me is all.

Also apparently people were selectively cutting out points about the hand holding thing, namely the parts about friends and family

 

[Empyrea]

Not Japanese here, but as a fellow Asian to them, I'll point out that I've mentioned a few pages ago that siblings also do that.
My sister holds my hand like that all time when we're out shopping.

 

[faefolk]

I’m not sure what you mean exactly?

Spoiler

My point was just that Aerith seems to know whats happening between C&T but from later down the line that doesn’t seem to matter at all, it was just odd writing to me is all.

Also apparently people were selectively cutting out points about the hand holding thing, namely the parts about friends and family

Hey I looked up an article in Japanese and translated it to English. There is deadass full on articles about this

I did it under a spoiler tag cause it's a lot of text. This is the section on if you're not dating. This is in a romance article though.

Spoiler

"[If before dating]
Connecting with a lover is proof of goodwill
There are hurdles to connecting with a lover even if you are not dating. Despite this, the first thing that comes to mind when someone holds your hand is that they are trying their best to deepen the relationship. It is thought that there are feelings such as `I want to build a good relationship'' and `I want to convey that I have goodwill.''

There are also cases where you want to check if the other person likes you by their reaction when you try to hold their hands. When someone you're interested in tries to connect you with a lover, it's your chance to give them a clear sign that they're interested.

There is also the possibility of just skinship...
However, there are cases where even if there are no romantic feelings, they just hook up because they miss the human touch or want to enjoy the atmosphere of being in a relationship. Some people may think that body touching is acceptable even before dating, so it's best not to think of it as a sign of goodwill.

If you are asked to become a lover by someone you are unsure of, carefully check to see if they are doing it out of goodwill, or if it is just a flirtation or ulterior motive."

 

[Hix]

Random musings -

You know for me part of the appeal of CA especially from original OG to me was eventually you could move on with a first love instead of being beholden to them for the rest of your life more specifically Aerith here, that in the end you are thinking of wanting to move on with another and that something different might happen there, in Aerith's case with someone different from first love even though initially she was curious about the similarities.

Just a thought, but, Cleriths would have to consider that this works the other way too, vis, by Advent Children Aerith is shown with Zack and that's the final word on the matter - accentuated by Aerith's yellow flowers blooming on Zack's resting place and Zack's buster sword sitting in the Sector 5 Church, an eternity together awaits. One could argue that while she may have indeed desired a relationship with Cloud in life, that this ship has sailed (pardon the pun) and she has decided also to move on. She is not beholden to Cloud and even less so he to her.

 

[faefolk]

Not Japanese here, but as a fellow Asian to them, I'll point out that I've mentioned a few pages ago that siblings also do that.
My sister holds my hand like that all time when we're out shopping.

And on Japanese yahoo they have a question about this pertaining to friendship. The below answer echos some other answers also. A big thing in a few of the articles mention lovers, close friends or family like 'skinship' with close people based on the atmosphere and wanting to give support. But a bunch state that it can be taken as an expression of romantic interest (which no doubt explains why Aerith seems so excited by it) and that you should confirm this with words and not assume because it can mean different things to different people.

'I don't think it's weird. Actually, I do it too ^^; I don't do it with my regular friends, but I often do it with my close friends. Some guys say it's disgusting, but I don't really care lol'

 

[Empyrea]

Will confirm that it can mean differently depending on individuals.

There's my sister. But I've also held hands with my best friend whenever one's comforting the other.

...and I've definitely had a guy immediately gun for an intertwined hand hold before. No offering first or anything.

But then there's adults saying you only hold hands with your girl/boyfriend. And we even had old school rules forbidding handholding cause it falls under PDA. Asia is weird, man (or my part of Asia, if not just my country).

 

[JaeKony]

Will confirm that it can mean differently depending on individuals.

There's my sister. But I've also held hands with my best friend whenever one's comforting the other.

...and I've definitely had a guy immediately gun for an intertwined hand hold before. No offering first or anything.

But then there's adults saying you only hold hands with your girl/boyfriend. And we even had old school rules forbidding handholding cause it falls under PDA. Asia is weird, man (or my part of Asia, if not just my country).

Sounds like we are all on the same page here. こいびとつなぎ (koibito tsunagi) is undoubtedly “intimate” but still vague enough to be open to interpretation. It’s a great ambiguous (slightly romantic-leading) representation of Cloud and Aerith’s relationship.

Also, anyone else feel like the topic of this thread has shifted from Cloud Tifa Aerith to Cloud Aerith Zack? XD

Feel free to chime in if you feel different, but there’s really no way to discuss ambiguity in Cloud/Tifa’s relationship now that he has straight up kissed her.

 

[Empyrea]

Also, anyone else feel like the topic of this thread has shifted from Cloud Tifa Aerith to Cloud Aerith Zack? XD

I definitely thought this is the case. xD

 

[faefolk]

Will confirm that it can mean differently depending on individuals.

There's my sister. But I've also held hands with my best friend whenever one's comforting the other.

...and I've definitely had a guy immediately gun for an intertwined hand hold before. No offering first or anything.

But then there's adults saying you only hold hands with your girl/boyfriend. And we even had old school rules forbidding handholding cause it falls under PDA. Asia is weird, man (or my part of Asia, if not just my country).

I don't know which part of Asia you're from but definitely it's all very culturally different from the anglosphere. Three of my closest friends are all from different parts of East Asia and say frequently that a lot of cultural subtlety that's lost on the Western audience when it comes to popular culture things that make it over here. Even just in the subbing and dubbing.

 

[faefolk]

Sounds like we are all on the same page here. こいびとつなぎ (koibito tsunagi) is undoubtedly “intimate” but still vague enough to be open to interpretation. It’s a great ambiguous (slightly romantic-leading) representation of Cloud and Aerith’s relationship.

Also, anyone else feel like the topic of this thread has shifted from Cloud Tifa Aerith to Cloud Aerith Zack? XD

Feel free to chime in if you feel different, but there’s really no way to discuss ambiguity in Cloud/Tifa’s relationship now that he has straight up kissed her.

Yeah the creators were clearly flirting with the idea of Clerith but leaving it ambiguous enough that it's nothing set in stone. Whereas they really took Tifa and Cloud and were like 'lets leave nothing up to interpretation.'

Though I keep seeing Clerith pages saying that nothing with Tifa counts because it's 'all based off of optional scenes' so we're clearly ignoring the romantic tension of them both lingering at the door, almost kissing and frequently comforting one another through touch. But you know. Shipping goggles.

Definitely at this point it's more
Tifa <-> Cloud <-?-> Aerith <-> Zack

I didn't put a question mark between Aerith and Zack just cause it's clearly stated she loved him and the past tense is only there because everyone assumes his dead. And you know, she's obviously still fond of him.

 

[Empyrea]

I don't know which part of Asia you're from but definitely it's all very culturally different from the anglosphere.

South East Asia. And yeah, definitely on the cultural differences. There are similarities, for certain, but that's about it.

a lot of cultural subtlety that's lost on the Western audience when it comes to popular culture things that make it over here. Even just in the subbing and dubbing.

Very true. I mean, as an example of a popular fandom, Persona suffers from that in some respects.

 

[faefolk]

@Empyrea yeah it's tricky to explain the differences to people too. One of my friends is Korean and said there was a lot lost in translation in Squid Game too. Lots of little subtle things that people outside of Korea would have completely missed.

I think it's kind of the same in reverse to be fair. Popular foreign shows in any country are always going to be perceived differently dependant on the the culture it's consumed by.

 

[Axiom]

Also, anyone else feel like the topic of this thread has shifted from Cloud Tifa Aerith to Cloud Aerith Zack? XD

Feel free to chime in if you feel different, but there’s really no way to discuss ambiguity in Cloud/Tifa’s relationship now that he has straight up kissed her.

A kiss is one of those things that speaks for itself. We can squabble over whether Aerith got over Zack, and whether Cloud has developed romantic feelings for Aerith, and how intimate interlocking fingers are. But a kiss is a kiss.

I suppose we can argue that the gold saucer dates are optional, but that is a weak argument. Logically, Cloud's personality is the same no matter who he goes on a date with. It's not like doing a few chores or answering some questions differently is going to dramatically change who he likes.

 

[JaeKony]

Yeah the creators were clearly flirting with the idea of Clerith but leaving it ambiguous enough that it's nothing set in stone. Whereas they really took Tifa and Cloud and were like 'lets leave nothing up to interpretation.'

Though I keep seeing Clerith pages saying that nothing with Tifa counts because it's 'all based off of optional scenes' so we're clearly ignoring the romantic tension of them both lingering at the door, almost kissing and frequently comforting one another through touch. But you know. Shipping goggles.

Definitely at this point it's more
Tifa <-> Cloud <-?-> Aerith <-> Zack

I didn't put a question mark between Aerith and Zack just cause it's clearly stated she loved him and the past tense is only there because everyone assumes his dead. And you know, she's obviously still fond of him.

Yea, as of Rebirth, I think that is a pretty solid relationship chart and I hope that is the one the devs were going for.

Despite the fact that most of the Cloud and Aerith scenes in Chapter 13 and 14 are “non-optional”, none of them are as explicit and reciprocal as Cloud and Tifa’s GS date.

 

[A-to-Z]

Spoiler

As someone who loves Aerith, I personally think it’s just unsatisfying for her to romantically end up with someone who doesn’t reciprocate her (currently ambiguous) feelings. We know now that she’s not even sure if she loves Cloud. And at least in ZA she’s not chasing a man whose real self she hasn’t met yet. The point is, it was never important for her character to know the difference between real cloud and his soldier persona and that’s what’s mostly stopping me to get on board with that ship, when it’s arguably the big reveal to the whole plot of ff7 and is the crux of cloud’s entire character. Aerith developing “genuine (romantic?) feelings” for REAL cloud is irrelevant to her narrative, if that plotline even ever existed, it isn’t at the forefront of her personal story. She doesn’t interact with his real self until after she dies, and her character motivations go beyond the fact that he had a fake identity the whole time they knew each other, despite that, after her death she helps out not just him, but the entire party, she becomes a guardian watching over the planet and her friends from the afterlife, she fulfills her purpose in the story even without a specific classification of her relationship with cloud (whether platonic or romantic)

Lots of people argue that the Z/A shipper mindset is based on a bias for Zack, but those same people also severely mischaracterizes him (he’s NOT a “generic shounen protag” like they say he is but that’s completely different discussion), they insist he’s not important to the remake trilogy or is an overinflated NPC. The game also makes it a point to distinguish Zack and Cloud’s role in Aerith’s life, Zack isn’t just Aerith’s first love, he’s, quite frankly, the original. Which is why even Aerith subconsciously (?) tries to imitate what they had experienced together romantically, with another person. Zack became HER standard. He’s someone who can’t be replaced. That’s why she knows what’s liking someone and “”liking”” someone. It doesn’t matter if players aren’t convinced by ZA’s love story, if they claim it’s not well-written or if they don’t believe that ZA is more compatible than CA, fact is, cloud should already have an advantage because Z&A haven’t seen each other in 5 years, yet cloud doesn’t act on this advantage, and even up until the end of her life, even after Z&A are separated, Aerith is wavering, traces of Zack is the elephant in the room that keeps haunting CA’s ambiguously romantic situation.

Also I personally don’t find ZA and CA to be similar in dynamics at all. In CA it’s Cloud who warms up to her antics, but Zack has always been able to respond well to her energy, he even effectively comforts her about her personal fears, something I struggle to believe Cloud ever did. I’m an Aerith stan, so I want her to be loved. If you look at ff7’s plot as a whole, she just ends up being Cloud’s “what-if” while he was out there kissing other women, and I don’t want that for her. Zack called her his girlfriend, bragged about her to literally everyone he knew (to the point of even Sephiroth being aware of their relationship) and she wrote him 89 letters in the course of 5 years. So why shouldn’t she end up with Zack if they find themselves in the same place again? Clear, indisputable mutual yearning, mutual desire, is what I want for Aerith’s love story, as someone who’s a fan of hers.