SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[AncientGrimoire]

in OG, i have always thought cloud seemed more guarded around tifa while lax with aerith because tifa, unlike aerith, could shatter his soldier illusion. Cloud was subconsciously pushing tifa away to protect the illusion he conjured and avoid facing his own ‘failure’/ relive the pain. Funnily enough, that was what pushed him more towards aerith as she never posed a threat to his soldier persona; thus becoming a ‘safe haven’ for him in a way.

This was definitely how I felt it in the OG too.
Cloud and Tifa really became closer and opened up to each other a lot more after the Lifestream, when Cloud is able to drop the soldier persona and be himself, because he realised he never needed to be that in order to be special to Tifa.

Crisis Core also kind of illustrates how much Zack is able to bring out the best in Aerith and Cloud, a small facet of which I think speaks to the easy bond Aerith and Cloud are able to form outside of just the similarities Aerith sees in Cloud, I think both connect quickly because they’ve been able to be this way before with Zack, the OG paints it in more subtler strokes where I got the impression Aerith’s conviviality with Cloud struck a chord with the lonely child that lies within him. It’s these aspects that fully convey the importance all of these four have to the other. They are all able to grow through knowing and forming connections with each other.

I think Remake and Rebirth definitely complicates things though. Aerith isn’t quite the safe haven for Cloud that she was in the OG, as Zack is a bigger focus in the story and for the characters, but this also effectively ties into Cloud’s bigger ongoing story surrounding his identity crisis and memory issues

I can appreciate and enjoy the strengths and differences both approaches have to the characters and story

 

[Empyrea]

Yeah, I saw that one. Was gonna respond to if but I didn’t want to get into an LTD argument on that thread lol, so I just let it be.

The general spoiler discussion seems to attract a lot of Cleriths, there's a post in there from an hour ago calling Tifa a "wet blanket" undeserving of a kiss lol. I think they just generally avoid this thread, which is a shame because I think folks are mostly respectful here

If I may, isn't it a bit...cowardly to say something like that in a thread where you know any LTD discussion is liable to get you a ban (or have people begging to change the topic), thereby discouraging people from arguing the claim?

 

[Nal]

If I may, isn't it a bit...cowardly to say something like that in a thread where you know any LTD discussion is liable to get you a ban (or have people begging to change the topic), thereby discouraging people from arguing the claim?

those kind of people arent here to discuss anything anyway notice how they dont say anything else apart from that

 

[Ryeleigh]

To be honest, if there is one thing I dislike about CA, it's the way that certain fans romanticise Cloud's grief and guilt over Aerith's death. Because it implies that he supposedly wasn't devastated when he lost his mum, his town, Zack and Tifa (or so he believed). On the flip side, it also implies that if someone is "that" devastated and guilty over someone's death, it must be romantic but I'm pretty sure that no one wants to start making the argument that Cloud also had romantic feelings for his mum, town and Zack. (Or maybe for Zack, lol.)

Other than that, I'm indifferent about the whole thing.

 

[null]

I like relationships that defy categorization, so I kind of like what they’re doing with Aerith and Cloud. What I dislike is the idea that they’re both waiting out the clock so they can be together in undeath, while both ignoring/tolerating/pity kissing the persons attached to their respective hips. That just makes them both assholes and turns everything about her death into a total farce.

 

[gulava]

With CC, she became more rounded for me, but apparently, that didn't gel with some people ^^;

my first ‘proper’ intro to ff7 (not counting KH or ACC) was through CC; i found her characterization in that game pretty well done and made me empathize with her more when i played the OG.
and to be completely honest here; the og was… kinda lukewarm with characterization lol dont get me wrong the character writing was good, but most of the characters were misinterpreted by fans for 27 years due to poor characterization (e.g bully tifa, spunky aerith, emo cloud)

 

[liuliuliu]

next installment is going to be creepy where we will see cloud talking to his hallucination.

 

[gulava]

What I dislike is the idea that they’re both waiting out the clock so they can be together in undeath, while both ignoring/tolerating/pity kissing the persons attached to their respective hips.

while im fond of CA; the fans have a very polarizing interpretation of cloud’s dynamic with aerith and tifa.
they claim aerith deserves to move on from her dead lover, but cloud can never move on. And aerith is supposedly cloud’s true love whom he wants to reunite with in the afterlife, so he is only passing time smooshing her replacement, aka tifa (even tho aerith is the only woman in his heart).
And on top of that; the funniest of all, cloud kissed tifa in GS cause he felt sorry for her?? but not aerith his true love

 

[liuliuliu]

I think it is hilarious when people using end credits to arguing about whether a scene is canon or not. It’s a RPg game, you can consider all scene canon, it just shows you different reaction Cloud will give to different people.
Some input after spending 70 hours doing side quests and beat the game, and planning to platinum the game: there is a trophy for Jonny’s inn, where you need to collect things in the game. Even though you brought Tifa to the date, you will also get the reward for Aerith. In a sense, Aerith’s date is the only date you don’t have to see if you want to be a completionist.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

To be honest, if there is one thing I dislike about CA, it's the way that certain fans romanticise Cloud's grief and guilt over Aerith's death. Because it implies that he supposedly wasn't devastated when he lost his mum, his town, Zack and Tifa (or so he believed). On the flip side, it also implies that if someone is "that" devastated and guilty over someone's death, it must be romantic but I'm pretty sure that no one wants to start making the argument that Cloud also had romantic feelings for his mum, town and Zack. (Or maybe for Zack, lol.)

• I'm disgusted on these claims too sorry if there's any CA here..
• Zerith fans can almost understand if Aerith moves on ( I get that ) but CA fans who wanted cloud to die or saying he's looking for promised land that never there seriously ~

Cloud's promise land is with his family in ACC

 

[r_monk]

I like relationships that defy categorization, so I kind of like what they’re doing with Aerith and Cloud. What I dislike is the idea that they’re both waiting out the clock so they can be together in undeath, while both ignoring/tolerating/pity kissing the persons attached to their respective hips. That just makes them both assholes and turns everything about her death into a total farce.

I forget the exact wording, but Aerith just very recently said something along the lines of "cherish every moment" or "every moment matters." Live in the present, rather than wallow in the past. Appreciate every moment you share with the people you love rather than squander the gift of life in the shadow of grief.

This is what made/makes her death so affecting, and it's such a simple, wise lesson. Weird how some of the more extreme CAs refuse to take Aerith at her own word.

 

[Yumelinh]

Thanks for looping me back in @Yumelinh. The differences between the EN and JP Script are definitely a source of controversy (especially for the theory crafters and/or shippers).

I can’t speak for all of the localization differences but, from the scene you are describing specifically, some would take the scene where

Spoiler

Aerith saying “Maybe…” vs そうだね “That’s right…” as an example of SENA feeding into the LTD (which they might be) but, even if it impacts the nuance of that scene, it doesn’t change the overall portrayal of Aerith throughout Rebirth as struggling over her feelings for Zack and being confused about her feelings towards Cloud imo

Thanks a lot for your input @JaeKony

Spoiler

Good point! Even though "That's right" and "Maybe" are fairly different words, within the context of the scene and the overall plot of the game, the message still comes across the same i.e she's confused. This was probably the objective the localization team wanted to get across in the end.
Regarding the localization controversy, I mean, they could be pushing an agenda just to keep the topic alive (definitely not the first time it has happened, lol), but I like to believe there's no benefit in doing that. All these very different interpretations are probably them just trying to convey the message within the context of the whole game (as they did in the example above) and failing miserably at it sometimes

 

[gulava]

I think it is hilarious when people using end credits to arguing about whether a scene is canon or not

i learned my lesson from KH
I love rokunami so when they included them in 2.8 credits i was overjoyed but then kh3 happened lol

 

[faefolk]

not really, i have seen certain clotis invalidate her relationship with (regardless of its nature) and insists he hates her and finds her annoying… both sides engage in character assassination in an attempt to prove their ship lol

Eh, I don't think saying you don't particularly like her character is an attempt to prove your ship haha. I acknowledge Aerith has a special bond with Cloud - she still irritates me as a character outside of that. I would be equally annoyed by Yuffie if she wasn't sixteen.. but I give her a pass because she acts appropriately for a sixteen year old haha.

 

[gulava]

Eh, I don't think saying you don't particularly like her character is an attempt to prove your ship haha. I acknowledge Aerith has a special bond with Cloud - she still irritates me as a character outside of that. I would be equally annoyed by Yuffie if she wasn't sixteen.. but I give her a pass because she acts appropriately for a sixteen year old haha.

character’s likeability is completely subjective and each to their own, but what i do not personally understand is fans who go out of their way to misinterpret her character and present her as a vile person, similarity to how tifa antis portray her as a manipulator liar

 

[starcape91]

Anyone run into Jenny in Costa del Sol? She’s sort of the embodiment of some of the more hardcore CA fans lol

 

[shady]

while im fond of CA; the fans have a very polarizing interpretation of cloud’s dynamic with aerith and tifa.
they claim aerith deserves to move on from her dead lover, but cloud can never move on. And aerith is supposedly cloud’s true love whom he wants to reunite with in the afterlife, so he is only passing time smooshing her replacement, aka tifa (even tho aerith is the only woman in his heart).
And on top of that; the funniest of all, cloud kissed tifa in GS cause he felt sorry for her?? but not aerith his true love

I'm not sure how anyone can argue who Cloud does or doesn't love -- it's my understanding since the OG not one piece of media related to FF7 that is official has ever stated Cloud is in love with Aerith. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong and i'm missing something here.

Aside from Maiden Who Travels the Planet (not even remotely canon i'm sorry) there may be tentative links to Aerith being in love with Cloud depending on who you ask, what's translated etc right? But again there's never been a true declaration of being in love has there?

 

[shady]

There are the kind of arguments that get presented by the way, like this is how far people have fallen down this hole because they've never truly addressed this LTD situation properly, and seemingly refuse to. There was discourse again yesterday that Cloud in AC is just waiting to die to be with Aerith because Tifa says that "A memory or us" line.

 

[GamerSkull]

There are the kind of arguments that get presented by the way, like this is how far people have fallen down this hole because they've never truly addressed this LTD situation properly, and seemingly refuse to. There was discourse again yesterday that Cloud in AC is just waiting to die to be with Aerith because Tifa says that "A memory or us" line.

View attachment 14739

The absolute cope.

If you’re gonna boil down Cloud’s relationship to Tifa as just lust, then I really don’t even know what to say. LOL

Like I can play this game too…. Cloud sees Aerith as a mother figure because he called her that at the end of ACC when he was on death’s door. /s

Also, let’s be real… Cloud forsaking his new family because he’s waiting to pass and be reunited with Aerith is an incredibly negative trait, There’s no way anyone on the writing team is okay with depicting that as a positive thing.

 

[gulava]

There are the kind of arguments that get presented by the way, like this is how far people have fallen down this hole because they've never truly addressed this LTD situation properly, and seemingly refuse to. There was discourse again yesterday that Cloud in AC is just waiting to die to be with Aerith because Tifa says that "A memory or us" line.

View attachment 14739

this is why i can not take LTD discussion seriously anymore, i have seen comments ranging from ones like this to “cloud sees tifa as a younger sister” or “tifa is cloud rebound”
reducing ff7 storyline to telenovela-esque soap opera is disingenuous and indicative of poor media literacy.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

There are the kind of arguments that get presented by the way, like this is how far people have fallen down this hole because they've never truly addressed this LTD situation properly, and seemingly refuse to. There was discourse again yesterday that Cloud in AC is just waiting to die to be with Aerith because Tifa says that "A memory or us" line.

- why i hate CA what kind of a person do they think CLOUD is?? This is not loving the character or the pair this is just to win the 'war' its a stretch on why devs deleted most of their moments.

 

[faefolk]

character’s likeability is completely subjective and each to their own, but what i do not personally understand is fans who go out of their way to misinterpret her character and present her as a vile person, similarity to how tifa antis portray her as a manipulator liar

Oh yeah that's fair. I've seen some extremely disturbing stuff written about both Tifa and Aerith. I definitely don't think of her as a vile person - just as someone who would irritate me if I knew her irl haha. I think she's a good person.

 

[liuliuliu]

One thing I really hope CA fans can help me understand is what is the goal you are trying to get out of the LTD. I understand the beauty of tragic romance, but for most people for the characters they love, they will wish for a happy ending for them. Aerith ‘s fate will not change at this point, so what will Cloud get after after that? He is alive after all.
Do you wish him d*e to find Aerith in the livestream? Or just leave a lonely life without loving anyone else until his days come? Or he can love someone else but just not Tifa…?
I have been wondering about this for 2 decades, and it seems unable to get an answer out of it. And I was too tired to join the LTD or ship war or whatever it is called. Rebirth just make me to start wondering about this again.

 

[Someonesbunny]

So is the war over? Are we going to be home for Christmas?

The burning question of the Love Triangle Debate was "Who does Cloud Love?" and it isn't really a shipping question so much as a question of canonicity. It feels like with everything in Rebirth, we've gotten a pretty close to definitive answer, right? Because, sure, the most romantic scene between Cloud and Tifa was the "optional date," but who Cloud chooses to kiss isn't based on player choice. He only kisses Tifa, and he almost kisses her a few times besides.

Is the kiss not enough? Does he need a press conference to explain his feelings? I thought words weren't the only way...

There isn't any reason why a person who prefers the Cloud x Aerith pairing to stop shipping it, but it doesn't seem to be fair that the proof being provided as to why Cloud x Tifa isn't canon despite this and supplemental text proof is based largely on bad faith interpretations and arbitrary hand-waving.

 

[GamerSkull]

One thing I really hope CA fans can help me understand is what is the goal you are trying to get out of the LTD. I understand the beauty of tragic romance, but for most people for the characters they love, they will wish for a happy ending for them. Aerith ‘s fate will not change at this point, so what will Cloud get after after that? He is alive after all.
Do you wish him d*e to find Aerith in the livestream? Or just leave a lonely life without loving anyone else until his days come? Or he can love someone else but just not Tifa…?
I have been wondering about this for 2 decades, and it seems unable to get an answer out of it. And I was too tired to join the LTD or ship war or whatever it is called. Rebirth just make me to start wondering about this again.

A reunion in the Lifestream may be a nice idea to cling to but the problem is, they won’t be conscious in the same capacity anyway… at least not Cloud in particular so it’s kinda moot. I’ve always taken a reunion in the Lifestream to be a spiritual one separate from anything that might be tangible.