1. Jealousy towards Zack is not true, he just wants Tifa to tell her what happened to him since at this point, he believes Zack was killed in the river.
2. Can’t be a rebound kiss as Aerith never rejected him.
3. What exactly is Cloud pitying?
4. lmao friendly kiss haha
5. Cloud didn’t want to do it? He’s the one who initiated it.
6. Fanservice by the devs but none of the other girls got this “fanservice” despite having a lot of fans as well.
7. Optional goes for Aerith scenes too.
8. Interlacing fingers may be romantic but compared to a kiss, no contest.
9. Aerith dies at the end so unless Cloud is into having relationships with imaginary friends, it’s done.
10. The credits one is the only one I don’t have a counter for but as evidence, it’s still a bit flmsy.
The credits one isn’t even worth countering because it’s a very poor piece of evidence to even cling to in the first place.
A lot of those arguments to discredit anything that goes against their personal canons are presented by a lot of people who don’t even play the game they just watch the cutscenes on YouTube so like, everything is completely out of context. So it’s not surprising really half of the story goes over their heads and they read things completely against what was intended.
Also if you only watch the cutscenes you’re only going to watch the ones that support your argument. It’s easier to pretend characters and story elements you don’t like can’t exist.
You can’t do that if you play the game. I mean you can, and they do, but that’s when their arguments are even more loose cause you can’t avoid a lot in the game that goes against their idea of what the story and characters are saying and doing.
Ultimately, I understand how intense FF7 shipping gets. I do, CA fans are acting within their natural behaviour to react so strongly to pretty much everything. We could enjoy a kiss as CT fans but we are spending our days fighting arguments against why it doesn't count, apparently. I would advise to not do this as, who wins? But as someone who has been observing discourse since 2005, the narrative and perspective being controlled by CA only shippers is not appropriate to be the only opinions held and hence I admire and love any Cloud and Tifa fan still fighting the good fight.
Cloud and Tifa were argued as platonic for so so long, the kiss annihilated that in one scene, optional or not. Much harder to erase, dismiss and discredit than pixels and fade to black under the highwind. They have to gun for it and deconstruct it as best they can because their ideology of two decades or so, where Cloud doesn't have feelings for Tifa, is now water running through their cupped fingers.
Also I don't think it's about what Cloud and Tifa got, I think it's also projecting for what Cloud and Aerith didn't get.
I do not think it should be understated or underestimated at all that they didn't get a canonical kiss, or a declaration of feelings. Except Aerith pulls the curtain on the stage she's been trying to set the entire game by saying: "There's like, and there's liking" that is a popped balloon, deflating in -10 speed for the entire ship.
They can't even have the "You'll lose what you cherish most" line because as someone who watched AC more times than I should have, I just had instant flashbacks to Cloud losing his final bit of temper in his fight with Sephiroth in the last bit and telling him: "You don't understand anything. There's not a thing I don't cherish."
So how about we don't, for one day, listen to what Cloud and Tifa aren't, shouldn't be, doesn't count. Hilariously bad faith takes, and tell me what Cloud and Aerith got this game that is going to come out ahead of what Cloud and Tifa are set up to receive in part three?
They can't even have the "You'll lose what you cherish most" line because as someone who watched AC more times than I should have, I just had instant flashbacks to Cloud losing his final bit of temper in his fight with Sephiroth in the last bit and telling him: "You don't understand anything. There's not a thing I don't cherish."
My first reaction to knowing Cait Sith's new prediction was, "Well, it better not come true, then, 'cause Cloud will most definitely break if he loses everything."
...I also watched AC and ACC more times than I should've.
Ultimately, I understand how intense FF7 shipping gets. I do, CA fans are acting within their natural behaviour to react so strongly to pretty much everything. We could enjoy a kiss as CT fans but we are spending our days fighting arguments against why it doesn't count, apparently. I would advise to not do this as, who wins? But as someone who has been observing discourse since 2005, the narrative and perspective being controlled by CA only shippers is not appropriate to be the only opinions held and hence I admire and love any Cloud and Tifa fan still fighting the good fight.
Cloud and Tifa were argued as platonic for so so long, the kiss annihilated that in one scene, optional or not. Much harder to erase, dismiss and discredit than pixels and fade to black under the highwind. They have to gun for it and deconstruct it as best they can because their ideology of two decades or so, where Cloud doesn't have feelings for Tifa, is now water running through their cupped fingers.
Also I don't think it's about what Cloud and Tifa got, I think it's also projecting for what Cloud and Aerith didn't get.
I do not think it should be understated or underestimated at all that they didn't get a canonical kiss, or a declaration of feelings. Except Aerith pulls the curtain on the stage she's been trying to set the entire game by saying: "There's like, and there's liking" that is a popped balloon, deflating in -10 speed for the entire ship.
They can't even have the "You'll lose what you cherish most" line because as someone who watched AC more times than I should have, I just had instant flashbacks to Cloud losing his final bit of temper in his fight with Sephiroth in the last bit and telling him: "You don't understand anything. There's not a thing I don't cherish."
So how about we don't, for one day, listen to what Cloud and Tifa aren't, shouldn't be, doesn't count. Hilariously bad faith takes, and tell me what Cloud and Aerith got this game that is going to come out ahead of what Cloud and Tifa are set up to receive in part three?
Its all this really; in the whole of Rebirth they set up cloud and tifas relationship perfectly, from arguments, to comfort, to their childhood, even romantic feelings. With Cloud kissing a character for the first time ever. So much so that Tifa herself in Rebirth has more plot significance than Aerith until the final parts of the game. Tifa was never meant to be the star of Rebirth especially after what happened in the OG game. Yet they decided to develop her character arguably the most in Rebirth?. But the question is What did Cloud and Aerith relationship wise actually get in this game compared to all that buildup for Tifa and Cloud? T
he gold saucer dates between them are drastically different with the handholding and the Very romantic Tifa gondala vs the Aerith one that can interpreted as sort of romantic or comforting. The dream date is also Aerith being unsure of her feelings. The end is Aerith's death with cloud holding her in which she may or may not actually be saying anything to him and it could be clouds imagination.
But the real question is Part 3 what can Aerith and Cloud have in part 3 that will disprove the 1 Lifestream 2 Highwind 3 Zack 4 Clouds True Persona
With Tifa and Cloud already having clearly romantic scenes in Rebirth we can all guess how romantic Lifestream could be, and obviously the High Wind will be romantic. Clouds true persona and not jumbled memories in which he joined solider for Tifa. has been imprinted into people's heads now through the promise scene, clouds own novel, the water tower scene in the flashback and when Tifa waves at Cloud and Aerith from her window. Clouds face is making the exact same expressions he did in his flashback.
Zack also throws too big a wrench into Clerith; they brought him back into the story and everything is focused on him reuniting with Aerith in some way. Theres no way they dont pay that off. The problem with Clerith especially after Rebirth is that there is too many things that you have to change about the story, Change about the characters, and straight up ignore happen in the main story of the game like Gongaga for it to work. At that point, its not even the same story and forgets all the other characters.
The biggest thing though is that Cloud and Tifa have straight up kissed, or if you dont count optional then almost kissed after Gongaga Sequence, which means anything is on the table for Part 3 now.
It’s telling that there aren’t very many CA fans on this forum. A lot of them (not all) don’t like discussing things outside of Cloud and Aerith’s relationship because they have to ignore such a gigantic amount of the story to have their headcanon. They generally stick to an echo chamber on Twitter, or (shudders) 4Chan.
It’s telling that there aren’t very many CA fans on this forum. A lot of them (not all) don’t like discussing things outside of Cloud and Aerith’s relationship because they have to ignore such a gigantic amount of the story to have their headcanon. They generally stick to an echo chamber on Twitter, or (shudders) 4Chan.
On the topic of EN vs. JP dialogue differences, it seems like when asked by Cloud if she "still loves Zack," Aerith actually answers "That's right!" in Japanese. Just like with Aerith's dream date dialogue, this change how I look at this scene because a confirmation is so different than a maybe, lol. @JaeKony, do you have any insights about it?
Either way, I don't believe the localization team is picking sides or has any agenda to keep the LTD alive, as they seem to have missed the mark for many scenes for both ships. This is definitely not an easy job to have, as people will be disappointed no matter what lol.
The difference is no one here invalidates Aerith, her character, nor her relationship with Cloud. There is an acceptance of all that happens because it’s the story. It’s these characters and it’s all what makes these games and this story so great. It isn’t just Aerith and it isn’t just Tifa. It’s everything else that builds up the world, the themes, and the story.
The difference is no one here invalidates Aerith, her character, nor her relationship with Cloud. There is an acceptance of all that happens because it’s the story. It’s these characters and it’s all what makes these games and this story so great. It isn’t just Aerith and it isn’t just Tifa. It’s everything else that builds up the world, the themes, and the story.
not really, i have seen certain clotis invalidate her relationship with (regardless of its nature) and insists he hates her and finds her annoying… both sides engage in character assassination in an attempt to prove their ship lol
On the topic of EN vs. JP dialogue differences, it seems like when asked by Cloud if she "still loves Zack," Aerith actually answers "That's right!" in Japanese. Just like with Aerith's dream date dialogue, this change how I look at this scene because a confirmation is so different than a maybe, lol. @JaeKony, do you have any insights about it?
Either way, I don't believe the localization team is picking sides or has any agenda to keep the LTD alive, as they seem to have missed the mark for many scenes for both ships. This is definitely not an easy job to have, as people will be disappointed no matter what lol.
Thanks for looping me back in @Yumelinh. The differences between the EN and JP Script are definitely a source of controversy (especially for the theory crafters and/or shippers).
I can’t speak for all of the localization differences but, from the scene you are describing specifically, some would take the scene where
Aerith saying “Maybe…” vs そうだね “That’s right…” as an example of SENA feeding into the LTD (which they might be) but, even if it impacts the nuance of that scene, it doesn’t change the overall portrayal of Aerith throughout Rebirth as struggling over her feelings for Zack and being confused about her feelings towards Cloud imo
not really, i have seen certain clotis invalidate her relationship with (regardless of its nature) and insists he hates her and finds her annoying… both sides engage in character assassination in an attempt to prove their ship lol
And that’s so sad, Cloud has a beautiful bond with both heroines and they are both important to the plot!
┏┓
┃┃╱╲ in
┃╱╱╲╲ this
╱╱╭╮╲╲house
▔▏┗┛▕▔ we
╱▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔╲
STAN TIFA & AERITH
╱╱┏┳┓╭╮┏┳┓ ╲╲
▔▏┗┻┛┃┃┗┻┛▕▔
not really, i have seen certain clotis invalidate her relationship with (regardless of its nature) and insists he hates her and finds her annoying… both sides engage in character assassination in an attempt to prove their ship lol
I somewhat agree with this… all I’m saying is that a lot of people in this forum pretty much seem to agree that Cloud and Tifa are endgame so it actually doesn’t surprise me that there is a deficit of Cloud and Aerith fans on this forum.
Thanks for looping me back in @Yumelinh. The differences between the EN and JP Script are definitely a source of controversy (especially for the theory crafters and/or shippers).
I can’t speak for all of the localization differences but, from the scene you are describing specifically, some would take the scene where
Aerith saying “Maybe…” vs そうだね “That’s right…” as an example of SENA feeding into the LTD (which they might be) but, even if it impacts the nuance of that scene, it doesn’t change the overall portrayal of Aerith throughout Rebirth as struggling over her feelings for Zack and being confused about her feelings towards Cloud imo
I somewhat agree with this… all I’m saying is that a lot of people in this forum pretty much seem to agree that Cloud and Tifa are endgame so it actually doesn’t surprise me that there is adeficit of Cloud and Aerith fans on this forum.
The general spoiler discussion seems to attract a lot of Cleriths, there's a post in there from an hour ago calling Tifa a "wet blanket" undeserving of a kiss lol. I think they just generally avoid this thread, which is a shame because I think folks are mostly respectful here
not really, i have seen certain clotis invalidate her relationship with (regardless of its nature) and insists he hates her and finds her annoying… both sides engage in character assassination in an attempt to prove their ship lol
I’ve seen a lot of that on Twitter and Tumblr (another reason to avoid) but haven’t seen it really play out here, from either side, which is why the Lifestream is my new home for discussing Final Fantasy VII
Y’all so lovely and it’s been so refreshing having civil and respectful conversations and debates here
Cloud and Aeriths bond is just as important as Cloud and Tifa’s, just in a different way I feel. I won’t go as far as to say Cloud hates or is annoyed by Aerith at all, but you’re also not paying attention if you say he treats both Aerith and Tifa equally through their interactions because that isn’t the case. There is a natural flow when it comes to Tifa, probably due in part to what the devs said — that his natural self tends to come out around Tifa. However with Aerith there does tend to be some resistance, i mean you only have to see him on dates with her at times or the responses you can give in comparison. Again, not saying Cloud is annoyed by or hates Aerith at all because that’s not the case, but there is a clear difference between the two at times
Aerith certainly has traits I don't like, but that's preference. Her importance to the plot shouldn't be dismissed, just as much as Tifa's.
All hope seeming lost at the end with Holy being unable to stop Meteor got me all tense on my first run, then the Lifestream bursts out of the earth and then we see Aerith. That, for me, was her defining moment. Up until the end, she was fighting with the team -- even from the beyond!
Point being, I find that Aerith's strengths lies less with her romance subplot and more how, flaws and all, she fought for the planet like everyone else. And they couldn't have done that without her. She's just as irreplacable and to claim otherwise is just as silly as diminishing Tifa's role. With CC, she became more rounded for me, but apparently, that didn't gel with some people ^^;
I agree with this, largely. Even "maybe" is essentially a yes, given the context and who she's talking to.
The general spoiler discussion seems to attract a lot of Cleriths, there's a post in there from an hour ago calling Tifa a "wet blanket" undeserving of a kiss lol. I think they just generally avoid this thread, which is a shame because I think folks are mostly respectful here
in OG, i have always thought cloud seemed more guarded around tifa while lax with aerith because tifa, unlike aerith, could shatter his soldier illusion. Cloud was subconsciously pushing tifa away to protect the illusion he conjured and avoid facing his own ‘failure’/ relive the pain. Funnily enough, that was what pushed him more towards aerith as she never posed a threat to his soldier persona; thus becoming a ‘safe haven’ for him in a way.
in OG, i have always thought cloud seemed more guarded around tifa while lax with aerith because tifa, unlike aerith, could shatter his soldier illusion. Cloud was subconsciously pushing tifa away to protect the illusion he conjured and avoid facing his own ‘failure’/ relive the pain. Funnily enough, that was what pushed him more towards aerith as she never posed a threat to his soldier persona; thus becoming a ‘safe haven’ for him in a way.
This was definitely how I felt it in the OG too.
Cloud and Tifa really became closer and opened up to each other a lot more after the Lifestream, when Cloud is able to drop the soldier persona and be himself, because he realised he never needed to be that in order to be special to Tifa.
Crisis Core also kind of illustrates how much Zack is able to bring out the best in Aerith and Cloud, a small facet of which I think speaks to the easy bond Aerith and Cloud are able to form outside of just the similarities Aerith sees in Cloud, I think both connect quickly because they’ve been able to be this way before with Zack, the OG paints it in more subtler strokes where I got the impression Aerith’s conviviality with Cloud struck a chord with the lonely child that lies within him. It’s these aspects that fully convey the importance all of these four have to the other. They are all able to grow through knowing and forming connections with each other.
I think Remake and Rebirth definitely complicates things though. Aerith isn’t quite the safe haven for Cloud that she was in the OG, as Zack is a bigger focus in the story and for the characters, but this also effectively ties into Cloud’s bigger ongoing story surrounding his identity crisis and memory issues
I can appreciate and enjoy the strengths and differences both approaches have to the characters and story
The general spoiler discussion seems to attract a lot of Cleriths, there's a post in there from an hour ago calling Tifa a "wet blanket" undeserving of a kiss lol. I think they just generally avoid this thread, which is a shame because I think folks are mostly respectful here
If I may, isn't it a bit...cowardly to say something like that in a thread where you know any LTD discussion is liable to get you a ban (or have people begging to change the topic), thereby discouraging people from arguing the claim?
If I may, isn't it a bit...cowardly to say something like that in a thread where you know any LTD discussion is liable to get you a ban (or have people begging to change the topic), thereby discouraging people from arguing the claim?
To be honest, if there is one thing I dislike about CA, it's the way that certain fans romanticise Cloud's grief and guilt over Aerith's death. Because it implies that he supposedly wasn't devastated when he lost his mum, his town, Zack and Tifa (or so he believed). On the flip side, it also implies that if someone is "that" devastated and guilty over someone's death, it must be romantic but I'm pretty sure that no one wants to start making the argument that Cloud also had romantic feelings for his mum, town and Zack. (Or maybe for Zack, lol.)
Other than that, I'm indifferent about the whole thing.
I like relationships that defy categorization, so I kind of like what they’re doing with Aerith and Cloud. What I dislike is the idea that they’re both waiting out the clock so they can be together in undeath, while both ignoring/tolerating/pity kissing the persons attached to their respective hips. That just makes them both assholes and turns everything about her death into a total farce.
my first ‘proper’ intro to ff7 (not counting KH or ACC) was through CC; i found her characterization in that game pretty well done and made me empathize with her more when i played the OG.
and to be completely honest here; the og was… kinda lukewarm with characterization lol dont get me wrong the character writing was good, but most of the characters were misinterpreted by fans for 27 years due to poor characterization (e.g bully tifa, spunky aerith, emo cloud)
