SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LNK]

All good questions.

But as it pertains to the LTD, I think Aerith will die at a later point in the game.

If equal screen-time is a big factor for SE in the Remake, and Tifa got more scenes in Midgar, then Aerith will likely get more scenes later on. This suggests to me that Aerith will die at a later point in the game so we can play with her until fairly close to the end.

Just like with the dream vs. hug, will Aerith now have the possibility to be an option under the Highwind?

I know this suggestion will make everyone's heads explode.

But if you look at it objectively, the Highwind scene was always inherently variable from day 1. And if SE is going to continue with "equal time" (dream vs. hug), I bet we will see Aerith being an option for scenes like the Highwind scene later in the game.

I don't see how Tifa can get more scenes in Midgar without Aerith getting more scenes later on. According to SE, they are going to keep it equal.


Do we know conclusively what choices impact the scene that is obtained?

Not to bring up the OG again, but to make a point about the Remake...

At the very start of FFVII, Aerith begins with 20 more love points than Tifa. Tifa will only catch up to Aerith if you make pro-Tifa choices. If you make anti-Tifa choices, Aerith remains in 1st place.

Aerith is automatically given 1st place — no choices required.

Given that the dream or hug occurs immediately prior to rescuing Aerith from Shinra HQ, this suggests to me that her scene would be the easier scene to obtain. It makes more sense narratively.

Cloud declares in the dream scene that he is "coming" for Aerith. In other words, Cloud is going to rescue her from Shinra HQ.

The reason Aerith is automatically given the 1st place position with no choices required in the OG is because her Gold Saucer date makes the most sense narratively. Just like the dream scene makes more sense narratively (and is included in the credits).

Point is -- Aerith's dream and Aerith's Gold Saucer date make more sense narratively than Tifa's Gold Saucer date and Tifa's hug.

Since the OG made Aerith start off with more love points so her date was easier to obtain due to it being a better fit for the narrative, wouldn't that likely still be the case with Aerith's dream scene?

Cloud is going to rescue Aerith from Shinra HQ, and says he is "coming" for her in the dream. Seems to me the dream scene would be the easier scene to obtain because it is a better fit for the story just like the CxA Gold Saucer date is a better fit for the story. The starting love point totals in the OG validate this theory.

Which takes me back to my original point...

New gamers will likely see the Remake as Aerith, Aerith, Aerith. Why? Because Aerith is the main narrative.

Always has been. Always will be.

Sure, Tifa helps Cloud rediscover childhood memories. But Aerith's Cetra heritage drives the main narrative forward, especially when one considers her ultimate death, Holy, and directing the lifestream to save the Planet.

Aerith is the first image we see in the game and the last image we see in the game. In a lot of ways, FFVII is her story.

Tifa may have had more scenes that pushed the LTD narrative, but they both still had equal amount of screen time. Maybe in part 2, Aerith will have more LTD scenes. At this point in the series, she will have a more front and center role pertaining to the story anyway. She doesn't need to live until the end and have a Highwind scene, to "even things out." She already evens things out before her death.

You can state your opinion without thinking our heads are going to explode BTW

Whether the dream sequence is a better fit for the story, is definitely a matter of opinion. I personally think it isn't.

Aerith is apart of the main narrative in the of the story. That does not mean new players would choose her for Cloud. When I played the OG for the first time, I drifted more towards Tifa. I liked her more as a character. The remake is no different. To say that they will think this game is all about Aerith, would be a disservice to the creators.

 

[BlankBeat]

I am sorry but FF7 is not Areith's story. Just like it is not Tifa's, Barrets, or anybody elses individual story. FF7 story is about a group of rag ta group of friends who set out to save the world. To think otherwise would disgenious to the entire cast of characters.

I said "in a lot of ways." I never said it was 100% her story.

When you look at her death, her Cetra heritage, Holy, the lifestream, saving the Planet, and her image being the first & last image we see in the entire game, I think my overall, big-picture point is true.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Do we know conclusively what choices impact the scene that is obtained?

The Ultimania mentions that two points are added towards the Tifa scene for each side quest completed in Chapter 3 and two are added towards the Aerith scene for each side quest completed in Chapter 8. Then whoever the player wakes up in the sewers gets 1 point.

Since folks who have completed all of both women's optional side quests report getting the scene with the woman they wake up in the sewers, it sounds like the developers designed it such that this mandatory decision serves as a tiebreaker.

 

[BlankBeat]

Whether the dream sequence is a better fit for the story, is definitely a matter of opinion. I personally think it isn't.

But...

The dream scene & hug occur immediately prior to rescuing Aerith from Shinra HQ.

In the dream scene, Cloud tells Aerith that he is "coming" for her.

The dream scene (obviously) fits better within the main storyline due to rescuing Aerith from Shinra HQ -- just like the CxA Gold Saucer date fits better within the main storyline (SE wants both Cloud & gamers to get further attached to Aerith before she dies). This is why Aerith begins with 20 more love points than Tifa. Tifa only catches up to Aerith if you make pro-Tifa choices. If you make anti-Tifa choices, Aerith remains in 1st place. Aerith is automatically given 1st place — no choices required. Why? Because the CxA date is a better fit narratively. SE wants most gamers to get the CxA date because it makes the storyline more cohesive.

Looking at it from SE's perspective -- from a storytelling perspective -- both the dream scene & the CxA date are better fits for the storyline than Tifa's scenes. The beginning love point totals in the OG validate my theory.

 

[BlankBeat]

The Ultimania mentions that two points are added towards the Tifa scene for each side quest completed in Chapter 3 and two are added towards the Aerith scene for each side quest completed in Chapter 8. Then whoever the player wakes up in the sewers gets 1 point.

Since folks who have completed all of both women's optional side quests report getting the scene with the woman they wake up in the sewers, it sounds like the developers designed it such that this mandatory decision serves as a tiebreaker.

Are there beginning love point totals like in the OG?

Regardless, Aerith's scene appears in the credits and makes more sense from a storytelling perspective.

Cloud is about to save Aerith from Shinra HQ. Therefore, the dream scene where he says he is "coming" for her makes the most sense.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I think Theozilla posted something related to this in the Ultimania thread.

Basically 2 points to each girls for every completed side quest relative to their chapters. You can check it out.

Edit: Oh, I think there was no mention about starting points, though.

Thankies!

I'm going for the Barret resolution while doing my Hard run and it sucks because I have to be mean though at least I can still be nice to Jessie! ?

 

[Graymouse]

I said "in a lot of ways." I never said it was 100% her story.

When you look at her death, her Cetra heritage, Holy, the lifestream, saving the Planet, and her image being the first & last image we see in the entire game, I think my overall, big-picture point is true.

You can put anyone of the characters in that same sentence and then describe what that character did to move the plot forward ike you did and say FF7 is that chacters story.

If you can do that, it means that no one character is better than the other.

Your are putting Aerith on a petstol, like she is the most important character in the game. Which is not true.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Are there beginning love point totals like in the OG?

Doesn't appear to be. To get Barret's scene, one has to do no more than one of the Chapter 3 & 8 sidequests each -- i.e. the points totals towards the scenes with both women have to be less than 5.

Regardless, Aerith's scene appears in the credits and makes more sense from a storytelling perspective.

Cloud is about to save Aerith from Shinra HQ. Therefore, the dream scene where he says he is "coming" for her makes the most sense.

I thought we were discussing a new FFVII player's first impressions based on which scene they receive. That's the only thing I care to discuss regarding these scenes and any assessments of them.

 

[BlankBeat]

You can put anyone of the characters in that same sentence and then describe what that character did to move the plot forward ike you did and say FF7 is that chacters story.

If you can do that, it means that no one character is better than the other.

Your are putting Aerith on a petstol, like she is the most important character in the game. Which is not true.

So SE deciding to make Aerith both the FIRST & LAST images of FFVII mean nothing?

That was just a coincidence...?

 

[BlankBeat]

I thought we were discussing a new FFVII player's first impressions based on which scene they receive. That's the only thing I care to discuss regarding these scenes and any assessments of them.

New gamers know Cloud is on a quest to save Aerith from Shinra HQ. Cloud is the one who comes up with the idea & is her Bodyguard.

In the dream scene, Cloud states he is "coming" for Aerith.

I feel as though new gamers may be confused if they get the Tifa scene.

Like...

Why is he hugging Tifa when he is about to go rescue Aerith?

I think it would be less confusing for new gamers if they got the dream scene.

Like...

Cloud wants his own say on loving Aerith, which is why he is deciding to rescue her from Shinra HQ.

Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

 

[LNK]

The dream scene & hug occur immediately prior to rescuing Aerith from Shinra HQ.

In the dream scene, Cloud tells Aerith that he is "coming" for her.

True!

But, the hug scene also comes after the platefall and going through the destroyed sector 7.

Either scene can be looked at as what's more important for the story Which is why SE made it where the player actions decide which one happens.

The OG Gold Saucer stuff doesn't matter to what's going on in the remake. So i'll stay away from that. Sorry

 

[Graymouse]

So SE deciding to make Aerith both the FIRST & LAST images of FFVII mean nothing?

That was just a coincidence...?

Your point of view is so unfair to the other charcters of the game. I wish you could see that.

Having Areith the first and last in the OG game I might add doesnt have any more significance then seing Arieths CH14 scene in the remakes credits.

I see you are passionate about Aerith, I get that, but it seems just like before you are not willing to listen or accept another persons point of view.

 

[BlankBeat]

True!

But, the hug scene also comes after the platefall and going through the destroyed sector 7.

But this all occurs at Aerith's house. After Aerith's entire backstory is explained.

And the plate falling isn't just about Tifa. However, going to Shinra HQ is just about Aerith.

 

[Yumelinh]

New gamers know Cloud is on a quest to save Aerith from Shinra HQ. Cloud is the one who comes up with the idea & is her Bodyguard.

In the dream scene, Cloud states he is "coming" for Aerith.

I feel as though new gamers may be confused if they get the Tifa scene.

Like...

Why is he hugging Tifa when he is about to go rescue Aerith?

I think it would be less confusing for new gamers if they got the dream scene.

There's nothing confusing in the hug scene: they're waiting for Emiya's permission > he goes out at night and sees a friend crying> comforts her.

For the record: Barret's scene also makes a lot of sense, they all do (as they should)! That's why they're "optional".

Cloud wants his own say on loving Aerith, which is why he is deciding to rescue her from Shinra HQ.

Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

That's not exactly what he said. But go on I guess..?

 

[LNK]

Why is he hugging Tifa when he is about to go rescue Aerith

New gamers know Cloud is on a quest to save Aerith from Shinra HQ. Cloud is the one who comes up with the idea & is her Bodyguard.

In the dream scene, Cloud states he is "coming" for Aerith.

I feel as though new gamers may be confused if they get the Tifa scene.

Like...

Why is he hugging Tifa when he is about to go rescue Aerith?

I think it would be less confusing for new gamers if they got the dream scene.

Like...

Cloud wants his own say on loving Aerith, which is why he is deciding to rescue her from Shinra HQ.

Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

You are disregarding everything that happened in the two chapters that lead up to the hug.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't even know why the Ch14 optional scenes are being treated as mutually exclusive? They're tracked, you're encouraged to get them all.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I never thought we'd be here in this day and age with official Team Tifa and Team Aerith terms, what is this Gale or Peeta, Jake or Edward, Harmoine, Ronmoine (it's Peeta/Jake/Ron right ?)

"When it came for Final Fantasy 7 Remake, the development team observed that many fans were on "team Tifa or team Aerith," says Co-Director Naoki Hamaguchi. Many fans even accused the development team of favoring one over the other. Indeed, if you look at the original game, Tifa is definitely an important character, but it always feels as if the story is pushing Cloud and Aerith together. You could even argue Aerith is the real hero of the story, where Tifa exists more to push Cloud's character arc along."

 

[LNK]

But this all occurs at Aerith's house. After Aerith's entire backstory is explained.

And the plate falling isn't just about Tifa. However, going to Shinra HQ is just about Aerith.

Things aren't always all or nothing/black and white.

Just because the plate falling wasn't ONLY about Tifa, doesn't make the hug scene any less impactful. Tifa is emotionally drained because her friends were just killed, she lost her home. Throw that on top of what happened in the past due to Shinra.

Doesn't matter that it happened at Aerith's house after hearing her story. In fact, the only reason why they were at her house in the first place, was for Barret to see Marlene.

 

[billy22]

But as it pertains to the LTD, I think Aerith will die at a later point in the game.

If equal screen-time is a big factor for SE in the Remake, and Tifa got more scenes in Midgar, then Aerith will likely get more scenes later on. This suggests to me that Aerith will die at a later point in the game so we can play with her until fairly close to the end.

I also agree that Aerith, even if she dies, will get some screen time at a later point. Definitely more than she got in OG after her death (which basically consisted of being mentioned a few times and appearing in the final cinematic).

However bear in mind that if she's dead before the final game, there is only so much they can do with her. She will be dead and competing with 8 alive party members for screen time/character development.

Also, it's not just 'more' scenes that a lot of us have noticed, it's the content of some of them. Such as the flirting, which was almost non-existent in OG and immediately paints a (blurry) picture of Cloud's interests.

Just like with the dream vs. hug, will Aerith now have the possibility to be an option under the Highwind?

If she's dead, I highly doubt it. But sure, it's possible. Maybe they'll let you jump in the lifestream for ghost sex.

Speaking of which, I bet she'll play a part in the Lifestream sequence when we get it in 10 years. Maybe it will be a puzzle section and she'll be helping Tifa out.

I know this suggestion will make everyone's heads explode.

No.

I don't see how Tifa can get more scenes in Midgar without Aerith getting more scenes later on. According to SE, they are going to keep it equal.

They were talking about this game specifically. They haven't started on a game several years into the future yet, much less planned any of it. They don't even know how many parts there are going to be.

And I do not consider it particularly equal based on this game alone, no. Although I do think OG biases play a part of how we view this game.

At the very start of FFVII, Aerith begins with 20 more love points than Tifa. Tifa will only catch up to Aerith if you make pro-Tifa choices. If you make anti-Tifa choices, Aerith remains in 1st place.

Aerith is automatically given 1st place — no choices required.

Yes, this is true. Which is why it is at the very least noteworthy that it isn't the case for this specific game. Although I will say that Tifa's HA highwind scene is also significantly easier.

Speaking of which, it is not a coincidence that the majority of Tifa affection boosts are forced this time, through no choice of the player. If you include the train jump, Cloud already has enough affection points for HA Highwind.

Given that the dream or hug occurs immediately prior to rescuing Aerith from Shinra HQ, this suggests to me that her scene would be the easier scene to obtain. It makes more sense narratively.

It isn't. Actually, Tifa's is easier to obtain, by virtue of the fact that she has easier and faster side quests.

Now, as I said back on page 1, I do not consider it a valid reason, but it is true nonetheless.

The reason Aerith is automatically given the 1st place position with no choices required in the OG is because her Gold Saucer date makes the most sense narratively. Just like the dream scene makes more sense narratively (and is included in the credits).

Yes.

End credits point is extremely weak though. The Ultimania is far higher on the totem pole. I would even put more stock into the in-game statistics. They probably all happened, with none being more important than the other.

Point is -- Aerith's dream and Aerith's Gold Saucer date make more sense narratively than Tifa's Gold Saucer date and Tifa's hug.

I agree with the former (date), but the latter (dream/hug) is highly debatable. These two situations are not even remotely comparable.

New gamers will likely see the Remake as Aerith, Aerith, Aerith. Why? Because Aerith is the main narrative.

Do not agree, based on how much they were shoving Tifa into Cloud's face throughout the game's entirety, practically from start to finish. She appears in every single chapter, except CH2 (I think?).

The only concession I will give here is that new players, if they view both the Aerith and Tifa scene, will consider the Aerith scene stronger. The subtext and meaning behind her words and what Cloud is would be lost on them.

Aerith is the first image we see in the game and the last image we see in the game. In a lot of ways, FFVII is her story.

It's Cloud's story actually, but I get your point.

Conclusion is terrible however. Importance to the plot means diddly for romance.

I thought we were discussing a new FFVII player's first impressions based on which scene they receive. That's the only thing I care to discuss regarding these scenes and any assessments of them.

I have said it before, but I do believe the Aerith scene will be taken to be stronger (romantically) by new players.

Cloud comforting Tifa with a hug isn't particularly romantic itself. But it does have a 'guy holds girl too tight' trope. And from how the game goes from CH1 - 13, I don't see why anyone wouldn't view the Tifa scene to at least have some romantic undertones to it, even if not as strongly overall.

 

[Graymouse]

But this all occurs at Aerith's house. After Aerith's entire backstory is explained.

And the plate falling isn't just about Tifa. However, going to Shinra HQ is just about Aerith.

You are correct. In that same line of thinking Wall Market is all about Tifa, is it not?

Rescue the girl plot?

 

[Sasseli]

I don't think anyone can convince someone who is so passionate about their favourite ship. I get it. I'd react similarly.
I'm glad I'm not onboard a long sunken ship (Clerith) in this case, but that has occurred to me in other fandoms, so I know the feeling. Reasoning doesn't work where emotions are strong.
The love triangle has been a huge part of the OG, but I don't see that in the Remake in any similar fashion. What I see is a heck of a lot of mutual attraction going on between Cloud and Tifa. Nothing more. Aerith doesn't seem to be romantically interested in Cloud at all, lest I forgot something already.

 

[BlankBeat]

You are correct. In that same line of thinking Wall Market is all about Tifa, is it not?

Rescue the girl plot?

You are making a comparison where there isn't one.

Wall Market is about rescuing Tifa. But the interactions are CxA.

The dream scene sets up Shinra HQ far more than the hug scene. Why? Because during the dream Cloud states he is "coming" for Aerith.

These are two entirely different points that are unrelated to each other.

Besides, the interactions in Shinra HQ are between Cloud, Tifa, *AND* Barret. The interactions in Wall Market are just CxA.

 

[a_apple]

You are making a comparison where there isn't one.

Wall Market is about rescuing Tifa. But the interactions are CxA.

The dream scene sets up Shinra HQ far more than the hug scene. Why? Because during the dream Cloud states he is "coming" for Aerith.

These are two entirely different points that are unrelated to each other.

Besides, the interactions in Shinra HQ are between Cloud, Tifa, *AND* Barret. The interactions in Wall Market are just CxA.

I disagree about the dream scene being more canon, the hug with Tifa fits much better story wise.
Since it brings closure to the flower plotline that went through the entire game. Also you have Tifa telling Leslie in chapter 15 that his pedant means 'Reunion' while giving Cloud a smile. Which seems like a reference of her telling him that she looked up the meaning of the flower he gave her.
Also if the sewer scene is the tie breaker of which girl you get than that points towards Tifa too, since you get a actual dialog if you go for her first, when you pick Aerith in that scene she just says something like we have to go to sector 7. And a ton of other stuff but you get the idea

 

[Eerie]

No need for spoiler since it's the thread related to the LTD in the Remake here Thank you for posting here! I feel there are many shades in the cloti community, so it's fun to me to explore and confront views

i do understand, as i said in my previous post, on why they're doing this. and honestly? i was mulling over it for a day, and this could literally just be me. no seriously, just me, in the whole globe. when i really want something, i will do whatever it takes to get it. and if that includes waiting, i will wait. wait years, if what i want at the end of the day gets me what i want. it's a peeve with my family honestly, because sometimes i take to long to make meals or get to something because i want everything to be just right, so i can enjoy it to perfection. so it's not as if i don't understand i'm in the unpopular opinion slide, but i really, really might just be the only one who even thinks like this.

This is very different however. We are talking about a medium that has to establish clearly things. The OG had the advantage of being in one piece, so to speak - and even I have my gripes with it, re: cloti. Actually, I think the Remake is correcting a mistake from the OG, and that is not establishing cloti from the get go. The game pushes you so much towards Aerith that when the romantic conclusion comes, a lot of people either miss it or do not believe in it. To me, that is a mistake, narratively speaking. If you want your character to have a girlfriend, then she must be something else than "oh he just chose her cause she was the only one alive", or "he doesn't love her, he'll love the other girl for eternity!!!". In terms of narrative, it means that you have completely missed your goal, and that is partly why the LTD was born: because people did not understand the original intent.

And to my belief (and some others', apparently I am not the only one thinking that), all the UST and touching is there because they are indeed laying the ground for the Highwind scene. Do not forget too what Nojima has said: because now the graphics are so realists, a lot of things need to be told in other ways than the OG, which allowed you to fill the blanks with your imagination. That is not the case anymore, and I feel that this is where this comes into play, too.

i have two opinions on the matter actually. for tifa's expansion and complexities, i was amazed by it at first and it's well done...to an extent. which leads me to the hug scene. when she said "They beat us...Again," i almost felt my own self reaching out to comfort her, because she's just that well written and with her voice actors (jpn or eng it doesn't matter). but then when that lead to the hug, that's when it basically cemented my feelings on the matter. whatever tifa feels as the complex character she is, it leads to somehow being a heard hitting cloti clue instead of it just being focused on her as a character. like, even the time barret hugged her, it was later revealed to just be a setup for the hug cloud gave her afterwards. there are moments when her own character gets to have her own room, but for the most part i feel it's just a cloti setup. that's why i said i feel aerith is very much her own character and motives in comparison.

I highly disagree. The hug scene is telling us several things: first, that Cloud and Tifa lost their home, second that Tifa grieves and that Cloud comforts her, while grieving with her and sharing a very intimate moment. It also has romantic undertones that you can easily miss, but that's not the main point. The important thing with this scene, that you can also miss very easily, is Cloud's growth: in chapter 12 you see him feeling powerless, as he is unable to console a crying Tifa in front of a dying Jessie. Then in chapter 13, you see him looking at Barret hugging Tifa, and at that moment (which we know because the Ultimania spelled it out), Cloud wanted to help Tifa like Barret did. It's a that moment that he understood what was needed to comfort her - because not only is he 16 in his head, but also because he was always an akward kid, so those missed years did not help at all. To me, that is important because it's Cloud's desire to help her that made him grow as a character. In the OG we saw lots of Tifa > Cloud, but rarely did we see Cloud > Tifa, and I thinkt he way it's portrayed here is awesome.

i strongly disagree on cloti still being a slowburn. if we add up everything that was done, it's more a show from the getgo that these two are endgame. cloud's immediate change to the point of actual flirting when we first meet tifa, the mini constant praises i talked about beforehand, the hug, the jump out the train, the many "valid-reasons-but-not-really-valid-reasons-because-i-actually-just-want-to-do-it" touches throughout the entire game....they aren't subtle to me. but i have read some reviews, and there isn't one that hasn't said that all of these things are very natural and realistic for two people struggling with their feelings with each other, and considering i've never been in love i'll just have to take their word for it. as i admitted, this could just be me and my weirdo self

I know he doesn't look so but. Cloud is 16. In his head, at least, trying desperatly to look like an adult and to tackle things like an adult. This absolutely does explain why he acts like a puppy around Tifa, whom he's been lovestruck with for YEARS. Remember, they have not met for 5 years (7 for Tifa), but to him, that was just yesterday. So his true personality bumps back when he's around her. She was far away, unattainable, and suddenly, she is here, talking to him, being friend with him and so... grown up too! Imagine the effect that this can have on him lol, I think the depiction is rather close.

And they are laying the route for the Highwind scene which would be rather bizarre if everything happened like in the OG tbh. Because in the OG, everything happened very suddenly after the Lifestream scene, when prior to this it was Aerith this and Aerith that.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The interactions in Wall Market are between Cloud, Aerith, Chocobo Sam, Madame M, Johnny, Leslie, and more. BB, please stop with the transparent double standards. We get that you want C/A to happen. It might. It might not. You are attempting to wedge everything into a very narrowly defined lens and ruining the remake and the old compilation as you do so.