SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

So's Aerith though. Tifa's still the present.

Yes, agreed. This is the one Clerith argument that essentially debunks itself, but for some reason they still use it.

 

[Empyrea]

One of the rules of thumb of writing that I know of: You, as the author, shouldn't give the audience what they think they want but what they didn't know they want.

Now that may apply to both sides of the LTD, but I say that applies even more so to CA. CA involves breaking all that's been set up for what the audience wants. I've seen several stories lose their luster because the author caved in to the audience's demand.

Gotta say, my biases slightly aside, if Pt3 goes to make CA canon, I wanna see how they'd subvert all of Rebirth and build the CA romance up without ruining the pacing of the game and needing a Pt4. I already forgot Meteor has yet to be summoned as is xD

 

[GamerSkull]

Or after Midgar? The whole party is pretty focused on Aerith for a bit there, and then she stops being the focus of the narrative for awhile. Maybe they lost interest there.

Also Cloud's arc isn't about romance, it's about self identity. Likewise Tifa's is about doing something to do good in the world, rather than just seek revenge for what had been done to her and Nibelheim. They have a romance with each other, yes, but that's not their arcs.

That’s fair, it’s more like their romance compliments those character arcs rather than being the focus of them.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

GamerSkull beat me to it

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yes, agreed. This is the one Clerith argument that essentially debunks itself, but for some reason they still use it.

Oh, don't sell it short. plenty of their arguments debunk themselves!

That’s fair, it’s more like their romance compliments those character arcs rather than being the focus of them.

Oh, yes, The romance aspect has been woven very thoroughly throughout, but as supplement, not primary focus. Like, for a good example from Ch11, when Cloud has his freakout and "remembers" "Zack's" "death" in the river, Tifa rushes over and holds his hand in both of hers. And you get a first person shot of Cloud going from looking at said hand to her and the pain and wrongness subsides.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Self-debunking points are a regularly served meal round these parts. They're hard to swallow /dadjoke

But yes, that's why some people, most recently our dear BB, would post massive c/p text walls with 20 points, then do it again with 20 others when the first 20 were debated. Actually defending them just makes 'em fall apart faster by encouraging you to actually think about it. I'm suddenly glad these people haven't gone into American politics ... Or have they?

 

[Empyrea]

To bring it back to the use of the word “canon”, I’m seeing people argue on Twitter that the Aerith “route” is more faithful to Cloud’s character arc because it supposedly has him more focused on Aerith while the Tifa “route” is more of a distraction from the so called “intended” romance of FF7.

In other words, these people genuinely think Cloud’s entire character is centered on Aerith and that Tifa’s role in Cloud’s story is optional. I don’t care about who ships who, but it’s blatantly obvious some people turned their brains off to FF7 after disc 1, and I’m really starting to feel like the two most unproductive words in this conversation are “canon” and “route”.

I will always ask this of them: what route? xD In the name of all that's good, we have a linear story! The options we're given are just toppings we're given to spice up the playthrough and increase interactivity in what is, ultimately, still an interactive medium.

Even the games with multiple romantic routes have them as very out there and as barebones as can be so they don't affect the plot (...which is why I find all the romances in Persona bland as hell, please don't flame me).

 

[Ryushikaze]

Self-debunking points are a regularly served meal round these parts. They're hard to swallow /dadjoke

But yes, that's why some people, most recently our dear BB, would post massive c/p text walls with 20 points, then do it again with 20 others when the first 20 were debated. Actually defending them just makes 'em fall apart faster by encouraging you to actually think about it. I'm suddenly glad these people haven't gone into American politics ... Or have they?

Well the argumentative tactic arose from the creationist "gish gallop" so no, but only because they both arose from the same source.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

The "Gish Gallop" sounds like a combat maneuver or feat for a Fighter/Wizard build that specialized in mounted combat. Why can't it be that? The world would be a better place a different kind of shitty

 

[hytekz]

To be honest with some of the takes I see on Twitter, sometimes it makes me wonder : Am I the idiot? Did I misunderstood everything?
There was this thing about AC and how the frame of the buster sword in the church isn't about Zack and Aerith but about Cloud and Aerith and how Cloud and Tifa doesn't end up together (romantically I guess?).
Even though maybe the thing about Cloud and Tifa is up to interpretation? But for me it was quite clear seeing how they feel about each other.

 

[Someonesbunny]

Yeah, twitter tends to be a cesspool, thread after thread explaining and recontextualizing those things that are actually self-evident. It's a place where a kiss means less than touching hands: ever hear about "holy palmer's kiss" used outside of Shakespeare? No? Well, you will now.

You'd think that, often, the simplest route from A to B is the correct answer - anywhere else, you'd probably be right, but not on ship-war-twitter.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

hytekz, once upon a time in the OG only days I could sorta see the Buster Sword in the church as Clerithy. In a vacuum, ignoring how it was placed earlier in the film as a marker for Zack, or that after it's moved Aerith's flowers are blooming all over that same spot. But with the rest of the Comp taken into account, the Buster Sword is undeniably Zack's sword and always has been. Cloud carried it for a time, it helps visually showcase brain-fried delusional!Cloud, then he gives it back as it were and gets his own sword(s). You're not the one seeing crazy, yo, not on this one.

 

[cgnVirtue]

I will always ask this of them: what route? xD In the name of all that's good, we have a linear story! The options we're given are just toppings we're given to spice up the playthrough and increase interactivity in what is, ultimately, still an interactive medium.

Even the games with multiple romantic routes have them as very out there and as barebones as can be so they don't affect the plot (...which is why I find all the romances in Persona bland as hell, please don't flame me).

I’m glad you brought up Persona because I used to like the romances, but after playing through Persona 5 time after time the romances get super stale. In Persona the romances are literally fan service, which is why it makes no sense to me when I see people arguing over a canon romance. In PERSONA. Where the protagonist is literally always a self-insert blank-slate type. It makes even less sense to say there is a canon romance in Persona games than there is to say there are canon romances in Final Fantasy 7 where there are story elements that lean towards them.
Anyways, sorry for my short rant lol.

 

[Empyrea]

hytekz, once upon a time in the OG only days I could sorta see the Buster Sword in the church as Clerithy. In a vacuum, ignoring how it was placed earlier in the film as a marker for Zack, or that after it's moved Aerith's flowers are blooming all over that same spot. But with the rest of the Comp taken into account, the Buster Sword is undeniably Zack's sword and always has been. Cloud carried it for a time, it helps visually showcase brain-fried delusional!Cloud, then he gives it back as it were and gets his own sword(s). You're not the one seeing crazy, yo, not on this one.

Even without the compilation, my 14 year old self didn't find it Clerithy and I was surprised people did. Like, why? Cloud didn't use the Buster Sword at all in the film (aside from one shot during the flashback recap at the start). I thought he'd pick it up after getting Marlene home and before he goes to fight Bahamut with the others...but, uhhh, he didn't do that.

 

[hytekz]

hytekz, once upon a time in the OG only days I could sorta see the Buster Sword in the church as Clerithy. In a vacuum, ignoring how it was placed earlier in the film as a marker for Zack, or that after it's moved Aerith's flowers are blooming all over that same spot. But with the rest of the Comp taken into account, the Buster Sword is undeniably Zack's sword and always has been. Cloud carried it for a time, it helps visually showcase brain-fried delusional!Cloud, then he gives it back as it were and gets his own sword(s). You're not the one seeing crazy, yo, not on this one.

That's fair, I only watched AC having already played CC.

 

[Empyrea]

I’m glad you brought up Persona because I used to like the romances, but after playing through Persona 5 time after time the romances get super stale. In Persona the romances are literally fan service, which is why it makes no sense to me when I see people arguing over a canon romance. In PERSONA. Where the protagonist is literally always a self-insert blank-slate type. It makes even less sense to say there is a canon romance in Persona games than there is to say there are canon romances in Final Fantasy 7 where there are story elements that lean towards them.
Anyways, sorry for my short rant lol.

Haha I try to not to bring Persona up because...it's a different game, but I always get the urge to. And I always lose to that urge lol what with people talking about options, routes, and the like. They always speak like Cloud is a blank slate, like you said.

I don't even consider the romances in Persona (all of them) as romances because there is just no back and forth. How can there be any? One half of the pair is not even a character 90% of the time (and the other 10% are backstory stuff that just begs the mc to be anything but a silent protag).

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

See, this is a thing that brings me down about the LTD. I love having to explain the different way Cloud wears the Buster Sword on his back to my Roomie, who is a different breed if nerd from me. The importance of Zack having it reverse from Cloud so a typical draw has it coming out spine-first instead of edge, and how Cloud is just treating it as a weapon, nothing more. But if you listen to the wrong people, all you'll get is "BAAAAWWWW it's Clouds sword in Aerith's flower bed so my otp is better than yours!". Not only do they miss out on real symbolism and lore that was intended, they usually don't even see the perfectly good dirty joke that's right there. Do we even call that living?

 

[Hix]

Did Geralt actually confess to someone else? I remember him being obsessed with Yennefer at every turn. He's shown more than once fantasizing about her while having sex with others (even yelling out her name while in bed with Fringilla lmao).

I think a lot of it comes down to what love in the Witcher is, I genuinely don't think it can be equated to other media lol. And, yeah, the perfect example is Geralt telling Fringilla he "kinda" loves her. What does that even mean in this world though? Yen does it too as at one point she's literally sleeping with Istredd by day and Geralt by night and within a few hours claims to be in love with both.

I guess my point was the whole fast and free nature of romantic encounters in the Witcher games opens up the possibility for Geralt to experience it with just about anyone and he literally does.

Spoiler: TW3 Ending - Unrelated tangent

I would add, though it's tangential, I appreciate Triss's game ending, in which Geralt remains a part time Witcher, over Yen's, if for no other reason than the thought of settling down and giving up the monster killing life leads to Geralt running away from Yen on multiple occasions on the books. My dude loves his work lol

Hot take time? I think Aerith had a better shot with Cloud than Book Triss ever had with Geralt.

He does sleep with her though and she's first described as having once shared mutual feelings with him in the past.

Now I realize none of this will come close to "koibito tsunagi" - what does? - but they did romantically connect at one point in the books, which is uh...look maybe Aerith had more of a chance for something serious developing down the line if she didn't die, but it's entirely possible to say CA have a 100% platonic relationship in the two weeks they know each other (I don't necessarily agree for various reasons, but it's a valid read) and one cannot say the same about Geralt with any woman lol.

Anyway I think we've more than proven the seriousness of the LTD in Witcher circles, no?

Even the games with multiple romantic routes have them as very out there and as barebones as can be so they don't affect the plot (...which is why I find all the romances in Persona bland as hell, please don't flame me).

Absolutely!

The limitations of multiple routes on both the characters and the actual romance itself is so apparent in comparison to a story like Final Fantasy VII where all actors and their interests, romantic or otherwise, are set in stone. The lack of nuance is obvious and it makes it difficult for me to take seriously a lot of titles that do this, though it does make the exceptions (Ar Tonelico 2 being a real standout) that much more special when they manage to do it right.

You'd think that, often, the simplest route from A to B is the correct answer - anywhere else, you'd probably be right, but not on ship-war-twitter.

Yeah, unfortunately this.

I saw a CA shipper recently on Twitter stating the reason Rebirth has so many minigames is because SE are planning on having none in part 3, because ya know, Cloud will be now morbidly depressed for the rest of his life following Aerith's death.

Now, that's romanticising depression so it's not "OK", but I guess fair enough if you want to hold those views privately - but hang on a minute, in the OG Cloud goes snowboarding not even a day later and is even shown as no longer thinking much about Aerith, expressly stating that he doesn't care what anyone but Tifa thinks?

To get around that connection with Tifa, however, CA needs to assert that ultimately it doesn't matter. The Lifestream sequence, under the Highwind, supplementary material, ACC and DOC, these are all dismissed at the stroke of a pen because they directly discredit the ship.

The simplest explanation would be to reinterpret Cloud and Aerith's relationship in light of the narrative presented, but instead many of those who ship it reinterpret the narrative based on what they believe Cloud and Aerith's relationship should be. It's ass backwards and almost certainly not a common occurrence in shipping wars, from what I've seen.

There was this thing about AC and how the frame of the buster sword in the church isn't about Zack and Aerith but about Cloud and Aerith and how Cloud and Tifa doesn't end up together (romantically I guess?).

These people also don't understand story framing. In the movie, Zack's Buster Sword is shown in the church immediately after showing Aerith's flowers blooming on Zack's resting place. The contrast between the place where Zack and Aerith spent the most time together (the church) and the place where Zack's life came to an end (outside Midgar) is symbolically displaying how they are together now for eternity - something we clearly see in Advent Children Complete.



So much nuance and beauty is lost from the story, that the devs have tried to tell us, when one continually belittles or twists said narrative solely to fit square pegs in round holes.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

To be honest with some of the takes I see on Twitter, sometimes it makes me wonder : Am I the idiot? Did I misunderstood everything?
There was this thing about AC and how the frame of the buster sword in the church isn't about Zack and Aerith but about Cloud and Aerith and how Cloud and Tifa doesn't end up together (romantically I guess?).
Even though maybe the thing about Cloud and Tifa is up to interpretation? But for me it was quite clear seeing how they feel about each other.

That’s just it.

The takes on Twitter.

Like it’s pretty much a very din echo chamber/filibuster ad nauseam. Occasionally you may find an insightful take, meaningful comment. But they are often lost amidst a sea of bad faith readings, endlessly petty retweets or trolling in the comments, and some of the worst takes imaginable that calls into question, why on earth are these people even engaging with this story that is harming their mental health this much.

I can’t speak to everyone, but I personally found once I no longer read the Takes of Twitter, I found engaging in discourse around Final Fantasy VII to be much better.

Hopefully anyone who finds it worthwhile to similarly desire a healthy place to discuss things related to Final Fantasy VII are directed to these forums.

The terrible takes tend to make less of an impact if there is less of an audience to respond to them.

 

[Stiggie]

Why does it make Tifa a heart broken side character and Zack a loser though? I don't really get the Tifa can't exist without being a love interest thing because she went a whole six years without Cloud, she made new friends, became part of a family of friends.

The writers sticking the one thing I get, but I also have faith in writers being able to write something different without leaving characters in a bad place.

Because that's not how she's been written up to this point and the audience isn't stupid.

There isn't any universe where Tifa, as she's written, is passed over as a love interest by Cloud in favor of Aerith that does not result in literally everyone going "ah, so this story is all about Aerith and Cloud and how the universe revolves around them, Tifa is a side character". This is one of those things that is so obvious that I find it hard to even explain it, because there is no further explaining to do, that is the end of the line.

It would be equivalent to Aerith being completely gone now that she's dead, and the game suddenly revealing that Aerith actually WASN'T an ancient, it was actually Tifa, and then having Tifa cast holy, stop meteor, kill Sephiroth, and save the planet. "But why are people not allowed to step back and let someone else take care of the problem, it's not like the only value a person has is being an ancient, Barret isn't an ancient and he still matters". We immediately see now how hollow that retort is. How much of a character assassination would that be of Aerith? What kind of a sad nothing character would that make her? She would be Tifas bitch if that happened, it would be disgusting. The EXACT same thing applies in reverse.

Remember the scene of Cloud happily running towards Sephiroth with the black materia like some lap dog? That's how I visualize it, It would be like that, Cloud running away from Tifa to worship Aerith, the developers running away from Tifa to give everything in the story to Aerith, it would just be...."yuck yuck yuck iew, have some self respect FFVII"

PS, I also don't mean to dogpile, I actually like being able to talk to a CA who I am actually able to talk to.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Because that's not how she's been written up to this point and the audience isn't stupid.

There isn't any universe where Tifa, as she's written, is passed over as a love interest by Cloud in favor of Aerith that does not result in literally everyone going "ah, so this story is all about Aerith and Cloud and how the universe revolves around them, Tifa is a side character". This is one of those things that is so obvious that I find it hard to even explain it, because there is no further explaining to do, that is the end of the line.

- It also to create a point in the story that she's not just any character Cloud's reason for his goal is to be a special for Tifa. That's her most role this is also to distinguished her role to Aerith ( a cetra and meant to be last of her kind) and external heroine.

We have two heroine in this game / story one if for the Gaia world ( Aerith ) and one is for romantic interest and lady for the hero ( Tifa). You have to distinguished their roles and separate them. Hence this is why Aerith's connection to other characters and world has expanded this is to expand her connectiona and roles ( this is soo she can help save the world from meteor after sephiroth defeated )

And Tifa's role as romantic interest to Cloud is also expanded and her connection to Cloud is deepened ( so she can save him from Sephiroth in part 3, so people will understand why she's willing to give up everything for Cloud ) - by saving Cloud he will regain his true self and thus defeating Sephiroth.

Saving the wolrd is TEAM WORK it wont work if one is missing

Aerith helping to communicate white whispers to save world ( after sephiroth is defeated - mind you he needs to be defeated first - HOLY FAILED sephiroth blocked it planet save itself with help of Aerith ( and now Zack)

Tifa saved Cloud in LS scene by regaining himself and getting freed from Sephiroth and Jenova's control and thus in process also realizing their mutual feelings for each other .

Cloud of course with his true self regained defeated Sephiroth thus again savin the planet.

 

[Empyrea]

I think that is where I get frustrated with the line.

That is where some C/A fail to accept that the line can still apply moving into the future as well.

And can apply to not just Aerith, I would say. Which has been mentioned in posts above me, but that's cause I'm late to the party xD

On that note, just to leave my two cents, I interpret that line in 3 ways: meta, in-character, and a fumble. Aerith had been knocking on the 4th wall in remake at points, so she could very well be telling that to the audience. In-character, I took it as her telling herself that. And if she's telling herself that, it has to mean that she's convincing herself of it and hasn't actually done so because it would be a fumble otherwise. If she has indeed moved on, then her saying that is essentially the writers telling us her arc without showing it, and I wanna think they're better than that, what with the rest of writing has shown us.

Absolutely!

The limitations of multiple routes on both the characters and the actual romance itself is so apparent in comparison to a story like Final Fantasy VII where all actors and their interests, romantic or otherwise, are set in stone. The lack of nuance is obvious and it makes it difficult for me to take seriously a lot of titles that do this, though it does make the exceptions (Ar Tonelico 2 being a real standout) that much more special when they manage to do it right.

Ar Tonelico did have to make concessions to achieve that, and I appreciated it a lot. I would say, though, that for that one game, it was possible because...Croix isn't the main character, necessarily, it's Luca and Cloche and their familial bond. So Croix's romantic routes are just for the player -- no matter who you choose, the ending remains the same. Though it's still sweeter that because you have to commit, they were all better for it than in the first entry xDD

To connect it here, it's a little harder to do the same for FF7 becauseeeee Cloud is the definitive main character and his choice of love interest affects the plot.

 

[Stiggie]

- It also to create a point in the story that she's not just any character Cloud's reason for his goal is to be a special for Tifa. That's her most role this is also to distinguished her role to Aerith ( a cetra and meant to be last of her kind) and external heroine.

We have two heroine in this game / story one if for the Gaia world ( Aerith ) and one is for romantic interest and lady for the hero ( Tifa). You have to distinguished their roles and separate them. Hence this is why Aerith's connection to other characters and world has expanded this is to expand her connectiona and roles ( this is soo she can help save the world from meteor after sephiroth defeated )

And Tifa's role as romantic interest to Cloud is also expanded and her connection to Cloud is deepened ( so she can save him from Sephiroth in part 3, so people will understand why she's willing to give up everything for Cloud ) - by saving Cloud he will regain his true self and thus defeating Sephiroth.

Saving the wolrd is TEAM WORK it wont work if one is missing

Aerith helping to communicate white whispers to save world ( after sephiroth is defeated - mind you he needs to be defeated first - HOLY FAILED sephiroth blocked it planet save itself with help of Aerith ( and now Zack)

Tifa saved Cloud in LS scene by regaining himself and getting freed from Sephiroth and Jenova's control and thus in process also realizing their mutual feelings for each other .

Cloud of course with his true self regained defeated Sephiroth thus again savin the planet.

Exactly, and a quick addendum, to my earlier post as well. This is not just why Cloud is not allowed to move on from Tifa to Aerith. It's also why they're also not allowed to "Both be the love interest", because that still runs into the same problem of Aerith having "Tifas role +"

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Exactly, and a quick addendum, to my earlier post as well. This is not just why Cloud is not allowed to move on from Tifa to Aerith. It's also why they're also not allowed to "Both be the love interest", because that still runs into the same problem of Aerith having "Tifas role +"

BTW I saw another post by C/A saying the Tifa's gondola date is very much romantic incline not related to the story. Other dates are much more meaningful story wise-- its like WTF??

Its the GONDOLA GOLD SAUCE DATE ( it was meant to be romantic story wise) - no more words

 

[GamerSkull]

BTW I saw another post by C/A saying the Tifa's gondola date is very much romantic incline not related to the story. Other dates are much more meaningful story wise-- its like WTF??

Its the GONDOLA GOLD SAUCE DATE ( it was meant to be romantic story wise) - no more words

Didn’t you know? Tifa sucks so everything that involves her is less important than all the other party members. /s