SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LNK]

Ngl this feels like a cop out. Saying that they don't want to be explicit about is very strange considering they literally fuck and live together afterwards and Clouds love for Tifa seems to be the reason the whole Story even happens. Nothing about that is explicit at all.

I mean, them doing that is more explicit than what was done for ff9. 10 as well. Fact is, no matter how explicit they get regarding C/T, it won't be enough for the extreme Aerith fans. Not saying you are one, but your next comment is proof nothing will be enough.

I also disagree that there wasn't any ambiguity post Aeriths death. This Nojima Interview that we just discussed alone is very ambiguis as to if Cloud and Aerith would be better as a couple.

Nojima was not saying A/C would be a better couple. Even if he did, it's irrelevant to what actually is. Aerith is dead as a doornail Smalls.

And regarding AC: you can write a couple in a loving relationship going through a tough time while still making it obvious that they are in fact a couple in a loving relationship but he didn't.

Of course you can. They chose not to though. That is equally an equally valid way of showing that people are in a loving relationship.

 

[Rin]

I'm confused as to how Nojimas take on CA could be read as ambiguous when he plainly stated that Aerith would be burdened with the emotional labour of having to carry the relationship. That's pretty clear cut. It would be a completely imbalanced and a one sided relationship where she's doing all the work and Cloud is putting in no effort.

On the flip side, CT may be bad at communicating but they both put in mutual effort for their relationship to succeed and grow--which is healthier and more sustainable than what Nojima thinks would happen with CA.

 

[LNK]

I'm confused as to how Nojimas take on CA could be read as ambiguous when he plainly stated that Aerith would be burdened with the emotional labour of having to carry the relationship. That's pretty clear cut. It would be a completely imbalanced and a one sided relationship where she's doing all the work and Cloud is putting in no effort.

It's also not really relevant if we're discussing what's canon. Nojima providing his opinions on what if scenarios doesn't matter

 

[Deleted member 26496]

I mean, them doing that is more explicit than what was done for ff9. 10 as well. Fact is, no matter how explicit they get regarding C/T, it won't be enough for the extreme Aerith fans. Not saying you are one, but your next comment is proof nothing will be enough.

That is simply not true. They celebrated and referred to Final Fantasy couples as exactly that... couples. And also Im not an extreme Aerith Fan. I like her character but she is definitly not one of my favourites.

Nojima was not saying A/C would be a better couple. Even if he did, it's irrelevant to what actually is. Aerith is dead as a doornail Smalls.

How can that be irrelevant when that is what clerith as a ship is literally about. The notion that Cloud and Aerith are actually better for each other so they should have been together is literally what clerith is. And yes he wasn't explicitly saying it but he sure was seeing that as a possibility.

Of course you can. They chose not to though. That is equally an equally valid way of showing that people are in a loving relationship.

How is that a valid way of showing that people are in a loving relationship? If anything it is the exact opposite. And they also chose not to do that anywhere else either.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

I'm confused as to how Nojimas take on CA could be read as ambiguous when he plainly stated that Aerith would be burdened with the emotional labour of having to carry the relationship. That's pretty clear cut. It would be a completely imbalanced and a one sided relationship where she's doing all the work and Cloud is putting in no effort.

On the flip side, CT may be bad at communicating but they both put in mutual effort for their relationship to succeed and grow--which is healthier and more sustainable than what Nojima thinks would happen with CA.

What effort does Cloud put in exactly? Even from AC we can see that he left because he thought he was a burden and failure. But he still left Tifa alone for weeks to care for two children (one of them being very sick) and also doesn't even answer her calls. Even in the denzel flashback Tifa is actually suprised that Cloud called her. He isn't really putting in effort for their relationship to work either

 

[eleamaya]

It's also not really relevant if we're discussing what's canon. Nojima providing his opinions on what if scenarios doesn't matter

What I love is, although it's his opinion on what-if scenario; we see how his vision is really portrayed in Rebirth.

What effort does Cloud put in exactly?

You can see it from Case of Tifa before Elmyra trigger him and before Geostigma.
Tifa is insecure here for having new life and Cloud say he would remind her how strong she is in blushing.
Post AC, he asks Tifa to close the bar 'cause he wants to take them all to go picnic.
In CA, it's all mostly Aerith who take initiative. Cloud is more passive. You see it on Rebirth.

 

[Rin]

What effort does Cloud put in exactly? Even from AC we can see that he left because he thought he was a burden and failure. But he still left Tifa alone for weeks to care for two children (one of them being very sick) and also doesn't even answer her calls. Even in the denzel flashback Tifa is actually suprised that Cloud called her. He isn't really putting in effort for their relationship to work either

Well, yeah. At that time he's not putting in effort because he's given up, that's the entire point of the movie. That doesn't mean he didn't put in effort before he contracted Geostigma nor does it mean he didn't put in effort after.

He also puts in effort during the movie itself when he decides to stop running. Thats the entire point of his scenes with Marlene, who cries because she feels abandoned by him and asks why he's stopped paying attention to them. This, along with his talk with Tifa, is the wake up call Cloud needs to resume putting his family first. And that's exactly what he does from there on out.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

What I love is, although it's his opinion on what-if scenario; we see how his vision is really portrayed in Rebirth.


You can see it from Case of Tifa before Elmyra trigger him and before Geostigma.
Tifa is insecure here for having new life and Cloud say he would remind her how strong she is in blushing.

Yeah you're right but he also does things like that plenty of times to Aerith in rebirth alone.
So what Im saying is that it is very possible that at the time of AC, Nojima might have thought that Aerith could have also very much been a good partner for Cloud but that he changed that stanced over the years based on crisis core and the Re trilogy for example

 

[Deleted member 26496]

Well, yeah. At that time he's not putting in effort because he's given up, that's the entire point of the movie. That doesn't mean he didn't put in effort before he contracted Geostigma nor does it mean he didn't put in effort after.

He also puts in effort during the movie itself when he decides to stop running. Thats the entire point of his scenes with Marlene, who cries because she feels abandoned by him and asks why he's stopped paying attention to them. This, along with his talk with Tifa, is the wake up call Cloud needs to resume putting his family first. And that's exactly what he does from there on out.

It's not him putting effort into the relationship with Tifa though but rather him finally stepping up to be there for his family and save the children. And his talk with tifa is, again, her putting in the effort with Cloud to get him to fight back and not sulk in missery.

 

[eleamaya]

The notion that Cloud and Aerith are actually better for each other so they should have been together is literally what clerith is

He didn't say Cloud & Aerith's relationship are better. He said things [refers to Cloud & Tifa's problem] perhaps would go well with Aerith. So, what he meant is both pairings has different issue & problem. What doesn't well in CT is well in CA, what doesn't well in CA (one side is burdened to put more effort) is well in CT (mutual & balance). That's what I catch from his statement.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

He didn't say Cloud & Aerith's relationship are better. He said things [refers to Cloud & Tifa's problem] are going well with Aerith. So, what he meant is both pairings has different issue & problem. What doesn't well in CT is well in CA, what doesn't well in CA (one side is burdened to put more effort) is well in CT (mutual & balance). That's what I catch from his statement.

Its fine if you think that, I just disagree thats all

Also I agree that 負担 mentioned in Aerith's case means she'd have to do all the emotional work in the relationship and that's why things would go well between her and Cloud - because she'd have to be working to maintain that state. Imo it doesn't involve her responsibilities as a Cetra especially since before he talks about Aerith he says "I'm not going to talk about my personal views on romance, marriage and family".

I think this makes more sense but that is just my opinion as well

 

[LNK]

That is simply not true. They celebrated and referred to Final Fantasy couples as exactly that... couples.

Did they? Do you have evidence of that? I don't ever remember the characters from the games I mentioned acknowledging they were in a relationship. At the end of ff9 we just see Zidane and Garnet hugging. End of X-2, it's the same with Yuna and Tidus.

And also Im not an extreme Aerith Fan. I like her character but she is definitly not one of my favourites.

I know, that's why I said I wasn't referring to you. I was only saying the extreme Aerith fans would use your comment as if it's relevant to what is canon.

How can that be irrelevant when that is what clerith as a ship is literally about. The notion that Cloud and Aerith are actually better for each other so they should have been together is literally what clerith is. And yes he wasn't explicitly saying it but he sure was seeing that as a possibility.

Extreme Clerith fans aren't arguing about what could've been. They're trying to distort the story to what they think actually is.

How is that a valid way of showing that people are in a loving relationship? If anything it is the exact opposite. And they also chose not to do that anywhere else either.

Because as I said, there are hints that showed they were in loving relationship after ff7, pre AC, and post AC.

What I love is, although it's his opinion on what-if scenario; we see how his vision is really portrayed in Rebirth.

Weren't we shown that in the original though? This trilogy is merely expanding on what we've already seen

 

[GamerSkull]

At the end of the day, despite no explicit mention from the devs, there is more in favor for Cloti than Clerith. Regardless of preference, that is 100% fact.

 

[Rin]

It's not him putting effort into the relationship with Tifa though but rather him finally stepping up to be there for his family and save the children. And his talk with tifa is, again, her putting in the effort with Cloud to get him to fight back and not sulk in missery.

Sorry, but I don't get this logic. A man putting his family first IS making effort in his relationship because they are intrinsically tied. Tifa is his partner and a part of his family unit, so putting his family first also includes putting her first as well. It's not like he separated her from the family unit.

Yeah you're right but he also does things like that plenty of times to Aerith in rebirth alone.
So what Im saying is that it is very possible that at the time of AC, Nojima might have thought that Aerith could have also very much been a good partner for Cloud but that he changed that stanced over the years based on crisis core and the Re trilogy for example

Cloud is supportive of all his friends, not just Tifa and Aerith but we're talking about romantic effort, which Cloud does not do for Aerith but he does do for Tifa. Nojima is saying that CT may be bad at talking /sharing their feelings, but they always show them with actions whereas CA may be able to communicate but Aerith would have the great burden of having to carry the relationship through her actions alone. This is completely true for their dynamic in the retrilogy, so I would argue that Nojimas opinion hasn't changed at all.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

Sorry, but I don't get this logic. A man putting his family first IS making effort in his relationship because they are intrinsically tied. Tifa is apart of his family unit, so putting his family first also includes putting her first as well. It's not like he separated her from the family unit.



Cloud is supportive of all his friends, not just Tifa and Aerith but we're talking about is romantic effort, which Cloud does not do for Aerith but he does do for Tifa. Nojima is saying that CT may be bad at talking /sharing their feelings, but they always show them with actions whereas CA may be able to communicate but Aerith would have the great burden of having to carry the relationship through her actions alone. This is completely true for their dynamic in the retrilogy, so I would argue that Nojimas opinion hasn't changed at all.

Ok, but how though? How is Cloud putting in effort in his romantic relationship with Tifa. Because based on AC alone we can see that that is clearly not the case.

And my Logic was that he fought back mostly for the children and not Tifa. He didn't need to save Tifa after all. He was putting in effort for the kids, not Tifa. Tifa is the reason he did it because she , again, put in the effort to get him back up but he wasn't doing it for her but for the kids and to beat Sephiroth/the remnants

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I'm confused as to how Nojimas take on CA could be read as ambiguous when he plainly stated that Aerith would be burdened with the emotional labour of having to carry the relationship. That's pretty clear cut.

I think this is protrayed even more in Rebirth we can see on how Aerith handles things or trauma - just let it pass and cover it with positive things. Its not her fault but that how she handles things that's why she's dragging Cloud into a lot of places. She's probably thinking that's how he will open up to her.

But it opposite Cloud's even more aloof with her ( I'm sure if I used the right term) on guard? He never sits by her side and never opens up to her unless she asked for it. ( this is 'soldier cloud' to think- what more on real Cloud he have an even more issues and more aloof its gonna be a more burden for her )

What I love is, although it's his opinion on what-if scenario; we see how his vision is really portrayed in Rebirth.

- exactly we can see it eeven more in that 'last' date it horrible.

. Even in the denzel flashback Tifa is actually suprised that Cloud called her. He isn't really putting in effort for their relationship to work either

- this is the time that Cloud needed time to grieve properly as he is never given the chance to do that in Nibelheim @insanehobbit who said this i forgot whose tread it is.

He may have wanted to move on and happy with Tifa but he needs to properly grieve first and this is the one he failed to do. He didnt know how.. you need to figure out this personally and Tifa cannot help him at this point because she's already have too much on her plate.

Sooo Cloud runs away ( to be fair on our protagonist this is mostly how he deals things remember? He hides his feelings since he was a child, deal with his issues on her own and isolate himself ) - Tifa knowing the vulnerability of this guy' she just allowed him.

ACC needs to happened because that will teach him there are things that 'just happened' and its not his fault. He needs to forgives himself and accept awful things just happened but he can 'take care of his family' today - just like how he promised marlene.


I agree with @Rin communication should have solve this easily but we're not them and this is how they deal things. The result is always the good thing right? Cloti is always a slow burn - a damned slow one.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

I think this is protrayed even more in Rebirth we can see on how Aerith handles things or trauma - just let it pass and cover it with positive things. Its not her fault but that how she handles things that's why she's dragging Cloud into a lot of places. She's probably thinking that's how he will open up to her.

But it opposite Cloud's even more aloof with her ( I'm sure if I used the right term) on guard? He never sits by her side and never opens up to her unless she asked for it. ( this is 'soldier cloud' to think- what more on real Cloud he have an even more issues and more aloof its gonna be a more burden for her )



- exactly we can see it eeven more in that 'last' date it horrible.



- this is the time that Cloud needed time to grieve properly as he is never given the chance to do that in Nibelheim @insanehobbit who said this i forgot whose tread it is.

He may have wanted to move on and happy with Tifa but he needs to properly grieve first and this is the one he failed to do. He didnt know how.. you need to figure out this personally and Tifa cannot help him at this point because she's already have too much on her plate.

Sooo Cloud runs away ( to be fair on our protagonist this is mostly how he deals things remember? He hides his feelings since he was a child, deal with his issues on her own and isolate himself ) - Tifa knowing the vulnerability of this guy' she just allowed him.

ACC needs to happened because that will teach him there are things that 'just happened' and its not his fault. He needs to forgives himself and accept awful things just happened but he can 'take care of his family' today - just like how he promised marlene.


I agree with @Rin communication should have solve this easily but we're not them and this is how they deal things. The result is always the good thing right? Cloti is always a slow burn - a damned slow one.

Thats a great thread but i want to clear something up. The denzel flashback happens before the whole Geostigma crises and before he visits elmyra (I think but I could be wrong) so its not really a good reason as to why he never even calls her in my opinion

 

[eleamaya]

Weren't we shown that in the original though? This trilogy is merely expanding on what we've already seen

I'm hard to remember since it's a lego and I was Team Aerith when I played haha.
But Rebirth also push Cloud & Tifa's relationship like in Gongaga and Nibelheim for advance comparison.

we can see on how Aerith handles things or trauma - just let it pass and cover it with positive things. Its not her fault but that how she handles things.

This is exactly what Zack do for his trauma as well (and I hate those who said he's just happy-go-lucky and fail to see how he COVERS it in hopeful persona).

For Aerith, it's what Ifalna taught her 'cause Ifalna also did her best to not show her pain to Aerith. "We're on adventure" is what Ifalna said when they escape from Shinra.
For Zack, I think it's a result how he's grown under happy environment and raised by lovely parents.

 

[liuliuliu]

Wow somehow the last couple pages feel like Rebirth doesn’t exist, where cloud and Tifa open up with each other in gongaga, and kiss inGS date while Aerith is still alive….
What else do we need? Cloud yelling “Tifa I love you” on the cliff? Oh wait he pretty much admits that in Gongaga as well….

 

[Rin]

Ok, but how though? How is Cloud putting in effort in his romantic relationship with Tifa. Because based on AC alone we can see that that is clearly not the case.

And my Logic was that he fought back mostly for the children and not Tifa. He didn't need to save Tifa after all. He was putting in effort for the kids, not Tifa. Tifa is the reason he did it because she , again, put in the effort to get him back up but he wasn't doing it for her but for the kids and to beat Sephiroth/the remnants

If you can't see how a man deciding to put the children he's raising with a woman first would have a positive impact on his romantic relationship with her... I can't really help you there, sorry. I'm not saying this to be snarky, I genuinely don't know where to begin with that.

 

[LNK]

Ok, but how though? How is Cloud putting in effort in his romantic relationship with Tifa. Because based on AC alone we can see that that is clearly not the case.

And my Logic was that he fought back mostly for the children and not Tifa. He didn't need to save Tifa after all. He was putting in effort for the kids, not Tifa. Tifa is the reason he did it because she , again, put in the effort to get him back up but he wasn't doing it for her but for the kids and to beat Sephiroth/the remnants

Nobody is saying he put in romantic effort during the time of AC. That's a reflection of real life. Sometimes couples go through rough patches in their relationship, where romance is lacking. AC was what 1 week long? Maybe less. What matters is what the ending implies, and that things get back to normal for them. Which is them being in a relationship and raising Denzel and Marlene

And my Logic was that he fought back mostly for the children and not Tifa. He didn't need to save Tifa after all. He was putting in effort for the kids, not Tifa. Tifa is the reason he did it because she , again, put in the effort to get him back up but he wasn't doing it for her but for the kids and to beat Sephiroth/the remnants

Are you a parent? I ask because you seemingly think these kind of things aren't linked

 

[Deleted member 26496]

Did they? Do you have evidence of that? I don't ever remember the characters from the games I mentioned acknowledging they were in a relationship. At the end of ff9 we just see Zidane and Garnet hugging. End of X-2, it's the same with Yuna and Tidus.

Yes they have done this multiple times on their official Website actually you can look this up if you type square enix love stories or something like that.

Extreme Clerith fans aren't arguing about what could've been. They're trying to distort the story to what they think actually is.

Both. They are distorting the story but they also know that Aerith dies, which is why they HAVE to say that Cloud and Aerith COULD have been a better couple but they know they can't really be yet since Aerith is dead

Because as I said, there are hints that showed they were in loving relationship after ff7, pre AC, and post AC.

Do you mean the books? If so didn't they come out after AC? That doesn't really disprove my opinion that Nojima changed his mind about cloti since the came out way later.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yes they have done this multiple times on their official Website actually you can look this up if you type square enix love stories or something like that.

Both. They are distorting the story but they also know that Aerith dies, which is why they HAVE to say that Cloud and Aerith COULD have been a better couple but they know they can't really be yet since Aerith is dead

Do you mean the books? If so didn't they come out after AC? That doesn't really disprove my opinion that Nojima changed his mind about cloti since the came out way later.

I believe the books came around the same time as AC in Japan. They came late in the West.

That being said, there’s enough subtext to imply Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship. She literally asks “do you love me” while he’s asleep, wakes up and is not surprised whatsoever to find her in the room with him which implies they share a bedroom.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

If you can't see how a man deciding to put the children he's raising with a woman first would have a positive impact on his romantic relationship with her... I can't really help you there, sorry. I'm not saying this to be snarky, I genuinely don't know where to begin with that.

I never said it didn't. It obviously does. The only reason I brought this up is because you used that as an example of him putting in effort for his romantic relationship with Tifa. I never once even implied that it didn't better his relationship with Tifa but that that wasn't him putting in effort for his romantic relationship with Tifa but that he did because he NEEDED to save the kids.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

Nobody is saying he put in romantic effort during the time of AC. That's a reflection of real life. Sometimes couples go through rough patches in their relationship, where romance is lacking. AC was what 1 week long? Maybe less. What matters is what the ending implies, and that things get back to normal for them. Which is them being in a relationship and raising Denzel and Marlene


Are you a parent? I ask because you seemingly think these kind of things aren't linked

No I don't think they aren't linked. And I was arguing that he barely put in romantic effort at all with Tifa so I was wondering why you guys think that Nojima would see that as a bad think if he says that Aerith would mostly put in the effort