SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[tsukiyo]

Thank you for the warm welcome! And yes, about the interview, Nojima talks about Aerith and Cloud as a what-if scenario. He uses words and grammar which can be translated as "might"/"probably" in English. He doesn't sound certain imo, more like speculating, wondering etc. But I can't say just from that part alone if he ever wondered about CA future in a serious manner. He doesn't say.

At the end of his response he remembers something he wanted to say/add and I noticed that after being asked some questions he's like "I don't remember but..." xD I haven't read the whole interview but the parts I saw feel like he's an eccentric who'll share what he wants to and the suddenly he'll remember something suddenly while talking lol. So it really feels like he didn't prepare his answers beforehand and some parts might be just his assumptions.

 

[LNK]

If Clerith really is a loud minority then I don't know what's been holding them up from just celebrating them (cloti) as a couple, especially considering that its their most recognisable game.

But they have. The problem is people want them to be VERY explicit about it. That would go against the kind of relationship they were portraying

 

[Deleted member 26496]

But they have. The problem is people want them to be VERY explicit about it. That would go against the kind of relationship they were portraying

How tho. Like I don't think there has been a single post even where they referred to cloti as a couple or treat them as such. Nojima never referred to them as a couple either. Compare this to all the other couples from the final fantasy series. They always get treated as a couple in very obvious ways but with cloti its very different. If they did any of that I seriously doubt we would have an LTD at all. Instead we have a lot of ambigiuty and "playing both sides" with clerith getting a ton of moments that can be interpreted as romantic. Even in AC they have Tifa ask Cloud if he even loves her and he is asleep so he can't answer, leaving that scene unresolved for the entire movie. I know they had a very tough time together in AC but their relationship looked and seemed not very romantic at all. Yes it is dumb that people don't think they are a couple or anything at all after AC is strange but to be fair if you were to rewrite their relationship in AC as if they weren't actually together and Tifa was in love with him in a way that wasn't mutuall than the movie would most likely be exactly the same.

I know Im rambling but its so annoying that they never actualy get confirmed as a romantic couple by Square Enix or Nojima

And also Square Enix did celebrate Final Fantasy couples multiple times but Cloti was never among them which is strange considering its their biggest game

 

[LNK]

How tho. Like I don't think there has been a single post even where they referred to cloti as a couple or treat them as such. Nojima never referred to them as a couple either. Compare this to all the other couples from the final fantasy series. They always get treated as a couple in very obvious ways but with cloti its very different. If they did any of that I seriously doubt we would have an LTD at all.

That's what I'm saying. Referring to them being in a couple would be explicit about it. That's not the way they wanted to portray the relationship. What they've done is drop hints for people to come to that logical conclusion though.

Instead we have a lot of ambigiuty and "playing both sides" with clerith getting a ton of moments that can be interpreted as romantic.

There was only ambiguity pre Aerith death in the OG. After that, it's full steam ahead on C/T ending up together but having a complicated relationship.

Even in AC they have Tifa ask Cloud if he even loves her and he is asleep so he can't answer, leaving that scene unresolved for the entire movie. I know they had a very tough time together in AC but their relationship looked and seemed not very romantic at all

It didn't seem romantic during that time because there was a lot going on that didn't allow for them to have romance. They were in a rough patch during that time. Post AC is when they are back to "normal."

 

[thetriplerhyme]

So Nojima says that if Cloud ended up with Aerith that things would go well but that Aerith would have to do all the emotional work?
Or am I missing something?

- just like how she's doing now she have initiate everything because Cloud never understood or never look at her pass a 'friendship' if she lives and lets say she got together with Cloud. She have to repeat this same scenario ( just like that last date).

She will be burden to Cloud's emotional trauma because she's exact opposite of him. Unlike Tifa who understand his pain because they have the same trauma and knows he needed time to figure things out. We know that opposite attracts but on that last date as we can see it not exactly 'attractive'

Just like @eleamaya CT and CA have mostly issues of their own but C/A mostly issues is they're just too different.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

That's what I'm saying. Referring to them being in a couple would be explicit about it. That's not the way they wanted to portray the relationship. What they've done is drop hints for people to come to that logical conclusion though.


There was only ambiguity pre Aerith death in the OG. After that, it's full steam ahead on C/T ending up together but having a complicated relationship.


It didn't seem romantic during that time because there was a lot going on that didn't allow for them to have romance. They were in a rough patch during that time. Post AC is when they are back to "normal."

Ngl this feels like a cop out. Saying that they don't want to be explicit about is very strange considering they literally fuck and live together afterwards and Clouds love for Tifa seems to be the reason the whole Story even happens. Nothing about that is explicit at all.

I also disagree that there wasn't any ambiguity post Aeriths death. This Nojima Interview that we just discussed alone is very ambiguis as to if Cloud and Aerith would be better as a couple.

And regarding AC: you can write a couple in a loving relationship going through a tough time while still making it obvious that they are in fact a couple in a loving relationship but he didn't.


Edit: by the way Im not trying to debate you even if I come across this way. Im just frustrated and frankly annoyed at how this whole LTD is handled

 

[LNK]

Ngl this feels like a cop out. Saying that they don't want to be explicit about is very strange considering they literally fuck and live together afterwards and Clouds love for Tifa seems to be the reason the whole Story even happens. Nothing about that is explicit at all.

I mean, them doing that is more explicit than what was done for ff9. 10 as well. Fact is, no matter how explicit they get regarding C/T, it won't be enough for the extreme Aerith fans. Not saying you are one, but your next comment is proof nothing will be enough.

I also disagree that there wasn't any ambiguity post Aeriths death. This Nojima Interview that we just discussed alone is very ambiguis as to if Cloud and Aerith would be better as a couple.

Nojima was not saying A/C would be a better couple. Even if he did, it's irrelevant to what actually is. Aerith is dead as a doornail Smalls.

And regarding AC: you can write a couple in a loving relationship going through a tough time while still making it obvious that they are in fact a couple in a loving relationship but he didn't.

Of course you can. They chose not to though. That is equally an equally valid way of showing that people are in a loving relationship.

 

[Rin]

I'm confused as to how Nojimas take on CA could be read as ambiguous when he plainly stated that Aerith would be burdened with the emotional labour of having to carry the relationship. That's pretty clear cut. It would be a completely imbalanced and a one sided relationship where she's doing all the work and Cloud is putting in no effort.

On the flip side, CT may be bad at communicating but they both put in mutual effort for their relationship to succeed and grow--which is healthier and more sustainable than what Nojima thinks would happen with CA.

 

[LNK]

I'm confused as to how Nojimas take on CA could be read as ambiguous when he plainly stated that Aerith would be burdened with the emotional labour of having to carry the relationship. That's pretty clear cut. It would be a completely imbalanced and a one sided relationship where she's doing all the work and Cloud is putting in no effort.

It's also not really relevant if we're discussing what's canon. Nojima providing his opinions on what if scenarios doesn't matter

 

[Deleted member 26496]

I mean, them doing that is more explicit than what was done for ff9. 10 as well. Fact is, no matter how explicit they get regarding C/T, it won't be enough for the extreme Aerith fans. Not saying you are one, but your next comment is proof nothing will be enough.

That is simply not true. They celebrated and referred to Final Fantasy couples as exactly that... couples. And also Im not an extreme Aerith Fan. I like her character but she is definitly not one of my favourites.

Nojima was not saying A/C would be a better couple. Even if he did, it's irrelevant to what actually is. Aerith is dead as a doornail Smalls.

How can that be irrelevant when that is what clerith as a ship is literally about. The notion that Cloud and Aerith are actually better for each other so they should have been together is literally what clerith is. And yes he wasn't explicitly saying it but he sure was seeing that as a possibility.

Of course you can. They chose not to though. That is equally an equally valid way of showing that people are in a loving relationship.

How is that a valid way of showing that people are in a loving relationship? If anything it is the exact opposite. And they also chose not to do that anywhere else either.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

I'm confused as to how Nojimas take on CA could be read as ambiguous when he plainly stated that Aerith would be burdened with the emotional labour of having to carry the relationship. That's pretty clear cut. It would be a completely imbalanced and a one sided relationship where she's doing all the work and Cloud is putting in no effort.

On the flip side, CT may be bad at communicating but they both put in mutual effort for their relationship to succeed and grow--which is healthier and more sustainable than what Nojima thinks would happen with CA.

What effort does Cloud put in exactly? Even from AC we can see that he left because he thought he was a burden and failure. But he still left Tifa alone for weeks to care for two children (one of them being very sick) and also doesn't even answer her calls. Even in the denzel flashback Tifa is actually suprised that Cloud called her. He isn't really putting in effort for their relationship to work either

 

[eleamaya]

It's also not really relevant if we're discussing what's canon. Nojima providing his opinions on what if scenarios doesn't matter

What I love is, although it's his opinion on what-if scenario; we see how his vision is really portrayed in Rebirth.

What effort does Cloud put in exactly?

You can see it from Case of Tifa before Elmyra trigger him and before Geostigma.
Tifa is insecure here for having new life and Cloud say he would remind her how strong she is in blushing.
Post AC, he asks Tifa to close the bar 'cause he wants to take them all to go picnic.
In CA, it's all mostly Aerith who take initiative. Cloud is more passive. You see it on Rebirth.

 

[Rin]

What effort does Cloud put in exactly? Even from AC we can see that he left because he thought he was a burden and failure. But he still left Tifa alone for weeks to care for two children (one of them being very sick) and also doesn't even answer her calls. Even in the denzel flashback Tifa is actually suprised that Cloud called her. He isn't really putting in effort for their relationship to work either

Well, yeah. At that time he's not putting in effort because he's given up, that's the entire point of the movie. That doesn't mean he didn't put in effort before he contracted Geostigma nor does it mean he didn't put in effort after.

He also puts in effort during the movie itself when he decides to stop running. Thats the entire point of his scenes with Marlene, who cries because she feels abandoned by him and asks why he's stopped paying attention to them. This, along with his talk with Tifa, is the wake up call Cloud needs to resume putting his family first. And that's exactly what he does from there on out.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

What I love is, although it's his opinion on what-if scenario; we see how his vision is really portrayed in Rebirth.


You can see it from Case of Tifa before Elmyra trigger him and before Geostigma.
Tifa is insecure here for having new life and Cloud say he would remind her how strong she is in blushing.

Yeah you're right but he also does things like that plenty of times to Aerith in rebirth alone.
So what Im saying is that it is very possible that at the time of AC, Nojima might have thought that Aerith could have also very much been a good partner for Cloud but that he changed that stanced over the years based on crisis core and the Re trilogy for example

 

[Deleted member 26496]

Well, yeah. At that time he's not putting in effort because he's given up, that's the entire point of the movie. That doesn't mean he didn't put in effort before he contracted Geostigma nor does it mean he didn't put in effort after.

He also puts in effort during the movie itself when he decides to stop running. Thats the entire point of his scenes with Marlene, who cries because she feels abandoned by him and asks why he's stopped paying attention to them. This, along with his talk with Tifa, is the wake up call Cloud needs to resume putting his family first. And that's exactly what he does from there on out.

It's not him putting effort into the relationship with Tifa though but rather him finally stepping up to be there for his family and save the children. And his talk with tifa is, again, her putting in the effort with Cloud to get him to fight back and not sulk in missery.

 

[eleamaya]

The notion that Cloud and Aerith are actually better for each other so they should have been together is literally what clerith is

He didn't say Cloud & Aerith's relationship are better. He said things [refers to Cloud & Tifa's problem] perhaps would go well with Aerith. So, what he meant is both pairings has different issue & problem. What doesn't well in CT is well in CA, what doesn't well in CA (one side is burdened to put more effort) is well in CT (mutual & balance). That's what I catch from his statement.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

He didn't say Cloud & Aerith's relationship are better. He said things [refers to Cloud & Tifa's problem] are going well with Aerith. So, what he meant is both pairings has different issue & problem. What doesn't well in CT is well in CA, what doesn't well in CA (one side is burdened to put more effort) is well in CT (mutual & balance). That's what I catch from his statement.

Its fine if you think that, I just disagree thats all

Also I agree that 負担 mentioned in Aerith's case means she'd have to do all the emotional work in the relationship and that's why things would go well between her and Cloud - because she'd have to be working to maintain that state. Imo it doesn't involve her responsibilities as a Cetra especially since before he talks about Aerith he says "I'm not going to talk about my personal views on romance, marriage and family".

I think this makes more sense but that is just my opinion as well

 

[LNK]

That is simply not true. They celebrated and referred to Final Fantasy couples as exactly that... couples.

Did they? Do you have evidence of that? I don't ever remember the characters from the games I mentioned acknowledging they were in a relationship. At the end of ff9 we just see Zidane and Garnet hugging. End of X-2, it's the same with Yuna and Tidus.

And also Im not an extreme Aerith Fan. I like her character but she is definitly not one of my favourites.

I know, that's why I said I wasn't referring to you. I was only saying the extreme Aerith fans would use your comment as if it's relevant to what is canon.

How can that be irrelevant when that is what clerith as a ship is literally about. The notion that Cloud and Aerith are actually better for each other so they should have been together is literally what clerith is. And yes he wasn't explicitly saying it but he sure was seeing that as a possibility.

Extreme Clerith fans aren't arguing about what could've been. They're trying to distort the story to what they think actually is.

How is that a valid way of showing that people are in a loving relationship? If anything it is the exact opposite. And they also chose not to do that anywhere else either.

Because as I said, there are hints that showed they were in loving relationship after ff7, pre AC, and post AC.

What I love is, although it's his opinion on what-if scenario; we see how his vision is really portrayed in Rebirth.

Weren't we shown that in the original though? This trilogy is merely expanding on what we've already seen

 

[GamerSkull]

At the end of the day, despite no explicit mention from the devs, there is more in favor for Cloti than Clerith. Regardless of preference, that is 100% fact.

 

[Rin]

It's not him putting effort into the relationship with Tifa though but rather him finally stepping up to be there for his family and save the children. And his talk with tifa is, again, her putting in the effort with Cloud to get him to fight back and not sulk in missery.

Sorry, but I don't get this logic. A man putting his family first IS making effort in his relationship because they are intrinsically tied. Tifa is his partner and a part of his family unit, so putting his family first also includes putting her first as well. It's not like he separated her from the family unit.

Yeah you're right but he also does things like that plenty of times to Aerith in rebirth alone.
So what Im saying is that it is very possible that at the time of AC, Nojima might have thought that Aerith could have also very much been a good partner for Cloud but that he changed that stanced over the years based on crisis core and the Re trilogy for example

Cloud is supportive of all his friends, not just Tifa and Aerith but we're talking about romantic effort, which Cloud does not do for Aerith but he does do for Tifa. Nojima is saying that CT may be bad at talking /sharing their feelings, but they always show them with actions whereas CA may be able to communicate but Aerith would have the great burden of having to carry the relationship through her actions alone. This is completely true for their dynamic in the retrilogy, so I would argue that Nojimas opinion hasn't changed at all.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

Sorry, but I don't get this logic. A man putting his family first IS making effort in his relationship because they are intrinsically tied. Tifa is apart of his family unit, so putting his family first also includes putting her first as well. It's not like he separated her from the family unit.



Cloud is supportive of all his friends, not just Tifa and Aerith but we're talking about is romantic effort, which Cloud does not do for Aerith but he does do for Tifa. Nojima is saying that CT may be bad at talking /sharing their feelings, but they always show them with actions whereas CA may be able to communicate but Aerith would have the great burden of having to carry the relationship through her actions alone. This is completely true for their dynamic in the retrilogy, so I would argue that Nojimas opinion hasn't changed at all.

Ok, but how though? How is Cloud putting in effort in his romantic relationship with Tifa. Because based on AC alone we can see that that is clearly not the case.

And my Logic was that he fought back mostly for the children and not Tifa. He didn't need to save Tifa after all. He was putting in effort for the kids, not Tifa. Tifa is the reason he did it because she , again, put in the effort to get him back up but he wasn't doing it for her but for the kids and to beat Sephiroth/the remnants

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I'm confused as to how Nojimas take on CA could be read as ambiguous when he plainly stated that Aerith would be burdened with the emotional labour of having to carry the relationship. That's pretty clear cut.

I think this is protrayed even more in Rebirth we can see on how Aerith handles things or trauma - just let it pass and cover it with positive things. Its not her fault but that how she handles things that's why she's dragging Cloud into a lot of places. She's probably thinking that's how he will open up to her.

But it opposite Cloud's even more aloof with her ( I'm sure if I used the right term) on guard? He never sits by her side and never opens up to her unless she asked for it. ( this is 'soldier cloud' to think- what more on real Cloud he have an even more issues and more aloof its gonna be a more burden for her )

What I love is, although it's his opinion on what-if scenario; we see how his vision is really portrayed in Rebirth.

- exactly we can see it eeven more in that 'last' date it horrible.

. Even in the denzel flashback Tifa is actually suprised that Cloud called her. He isn't really putting in effort for their relationship to work either

- this is the time that Cloud needed time to grieve properly as he is never given the chance to do that in Nibelheim @insanehobbit who said this i forgot whose tread it is.

He may have wanted to move on and happy with Tifa but he needs to properly grieve first and this is the one he failed to do. He didnt know how.. you need to figure out this personally and Tifa cannot help him at this point because she's already have too much on her plate.

Sooo Cloud runs away ( to be fair on our protagonist this is mostly how he deals things remember? He hides his feelings since he was a child, deal with his issues on her own and isolate himself ) - Tifa knowing the vulnerability of this guy' she just allowed him.

ACC needs to happened because that will teach him there are things that 'just happened' and its not his fault. He needs to forgives himself and accept awful things just happened but he can 'take care of his family' today - just like how he promised marlene.


I agree with @Rin communication should have solve this easily but we're not them and this is how they deal things. The result is always the good thing right? Cloti is always a slow burn - a damned slow one.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

I think this is protrayed even more in Rebirth we can see on how Aerith handles things or trauma - just let it pass and cover it with positive things. Its not her fault but that how she handles things that's why she's dragging Cloud into a lot of places. She's probably thinking that's how he will open up to her.

But it opposite Cloud's even more aloof with her ( I'm sure if I used the right term) on guard? He never sits by her side and never opens up to her unless she asked for it. ( this is 'soldier cloud' to think- what more on real Cloud he have an even more issues and more aloof its gonna be a more burden for her )



- exactly we can see it eeven more in that 'last' date it horrible.



- this is the time that Cloud needed time to grieve properly as he is never given the chance to do that in Nibelheim @insanehobbit who said this i forgot whose tread it is.

He may have wanted to move on and happy with Tifa but he needs to properly grieve first and this is the one he failed to do. He didnt know how.. you need to figure out this personally and Tifa cannot help him at this point because she's already have too much on her plate.

Sooo Cloud runs away ( to be fair on our protagonist this is mostly how he deals things remember? He hides his feelings since he was a child, deal with his issues on her own and isolate himself ) - Tifa knowing the vulnerability of this guy' she just allowed him.

ACC needs to happened because that will teach him there are things that 'just happened' and its not his fault. He needs to forgives himself and accept awful things just happened but he can 'take care of his family' today - just like how he promised marlene.


I agree with @Rin communication should have solve this easily but we're not them and this is how they deal things. The result is always the good thing right? Cloti is always a slow burn - a damned slow one.

Thats a great thread but i want to clear something up. The denzel flashback happens before the whole Geostigma crises and before he visits elmyra (I think but I could be wrong) so its not really a good reason as to why he never even calls her in my opinion

 

[eleamaya]

Weren't we shown that in the original though? This trilogy is merely expanding on what we've already seen

I'm hard to remember since it's a lego and I was Team Aerith when I played haha.
But Rebirth also push Cloud & Tifa's relationship like in Gongaga and Nibelheim for advance comparison.

we can see on how Aerith handles things or trauma - just let it pass and cover it with positive things. Its not her fault but that how she handles things.

This is exactly what Zack do for his trauma as well (and I hate those who said he's just happy-go-lucky and fail to see how he COVERS it in hopeful persona).

For Aerith, it's what Ifalna taught her 'cause Ifalna also did her best to not show her pain to Aerith. "We're on adventure" is what Ifalna said when they escape from Shinra.
For Zack, I think it's a result how he's grown under happy environment and raised by lovely parents.

 

[liuliuliu]

Wow somehow the last couple pages feel like Rebirth doesn’t exist, where cloud and Tifa open up with each other in gongaga, and kiss inGS date while Aerith is still alive….
What else do we need? Cloud yelling “Tifa I love you” on the cliff? Oh wait he pretty much admits that in Gongaga as well….