SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

This is one of the reasons I've always respected your views as a Clerith, because unlike some of the insane takes on Twitter you acknowledge canon as a whole.

I would say don't be disheartened tbh. I think there's plenty there for Clerith as a ship in Rebirth and who knows what they'll do in the next game. My position has always been that Aerith and Cloud were supposed to look like the perfect couple until tragedy strikes, to give it more weight and impact. It's designed to be a red herring, but that doesn't mean they don't feel anything for each other. It contributes to Cloud's loss of self after she dies, then Tifa puts him back together and he fully remembers who he is and how he felt/ feels about Tifa (confirming mutual feelings).

I think where we maybe differ in our opinions is in how that plays out in the OG - no matter what you do, Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings for each other (high affection or low affection - this happens anyway, the only difference is how explicit the scene is) and I think it's naive for anyone to assume that "confirming their feelings for each other" isn't romantic or is somehow a choice, even in the low affection version of the scene.

It's not just the players to blame for that, because as I've said in the past it's perfectly understandable that people would play through VII and overlook the romantic stuff between Cloud and Tifa, especially if all you're thinking about is Cloud and Aerith - will we get her back? Can they be re-united? These are the thoughts that run through some players heads when they play OG for the first time. Players who are hung up on that relationship are actively not going to acknowledge another love interest when all they're thinking about is a happy ending for the couple they liked.

The closest parallel I've seen in media was the ending of The Legend of Korra, where half the fanbase were convinced there was nothing romantic going on because they completely overlooked all the buildup and hints. It took the creators to come out and say it outright immediately after it aired for people to stop arguing that Makorra (idk I don't remember that ship name, it was awful anyway) was the true endgame.

Just take heart you're not one of the Twitter crazies. Someone told me the other day the apparent read on Twitter regarding the new Gongaga scene is that Tifa was trying to take advantage of Cloud in his weakened mental state "which is disgusting" etc. These people are absolutely unhinged.

Exactly. As always, support who you want. No one can tell you what you must like or not.

It's just that a work exists. It has a beginning and an end. And in the end, it's pretty clear and obvious who the final "ship" is. I'm sorry but it's not "opened to interpretations". These are just facts in the most literal sense possible.

As long as you're aware of this, and don't force your desires on what the work should be, I have no problem with any ship.

 

[GamerSkull]

I would say don't be disheartened tbh. I think there's plenty there for Clerith as a ship in Rebirth and who knows what they'll do in the next game. My position has always been that Aerith and Cloud were supposed to look like the perfect couple until tragedy strikes, to give it more weight and impact. It's designed to be a red herring, but that doesn't mean they don't feel anything for each other. It contributes to Cloud's loss of self after she dies, then Tifa puts him back together and he fully remembers who he is and how he felt/ feels about Tifa (confirming mutual feelings).

Beautifully said. I think I basically have the same exact take on the whole game. I also agree that no matter what Aerith will still be a special person to Cloud.

And yeah, Twitter is nuts. I’m not really sure how the Gongaga bit can be construed as Tifa taking advantage but I’m not surprised. I saw a take that Tifa manipulated Cloud by forcing the promise on him when they were children.

I think in the end, the moral of the story is: Twitter sucks.

 

[Jane Fane]

♪ Till the daaaaaaay that part 3 comes out
Where or wheeeeeeen, I wish I could say
But belieeeeeeeve, know that weeeeeee'll be here
Love triangle debate, we won't ever stop ♪

 

[Yoru]

♪ Till the daaaaaaay that part 3 comes out
Where or wheeeeeeen, I wish I could say
But belieeeeeeeve, know that weeeeeee'll be here
Love triangle debate, we won't ever stop ♪

It's been a long time since there were any debates. It's just people talking to walls.

 

[Stiggie]

For instance, saying Cloud’s mom referred to an older woman. Yes, I would agree that it is certainly a reference to Aerith

Is it though? I never understood why this is so commonly asserted as the normal thing to assume. I don't know about you but I never even realized that Aerith was older than Cloud when I played the OG, if that's mentioned somewhere its well hidden. It's the kind of stuff you learn from reading ultimanias or booklets.

When I hear that scene I hear Claudia talking about the temptations of city girls and that he should settle down with someone who'll take care of him. When I think City girl I think Aerith, when I think "Someone who'll take care of him" I think of Tifa in mideel.
And when I hear "mature" I think of the girl running her own bar rather than the girl still living with her mother.
I've always found the technicality of Aerith being 1 year older such a weird thing to highlight as the important part when a years difference is arbitrary at best, hell, if Claudia was really talking about an older woman we should be talking about Elmyra XD

Especially when we consider that at the time of the talk Tifa was literally living next door to Claudia and Claudia was aware that Cloud liked her it seems blatantly obvious that Claudia herself specifically had Tifa in mind, and the context surrounding Clouds reaction to is makes it equally blatantly obvious that Cloud wasn't interested in his mothers opinion of women since he was already thinking about Tifa.

So if both Cloud and Claudia are thinking about Tifa during that moment, and if we don't even know anything about Aeriths age when the flashbacks happens, then why is it certainly a reference to Aerith?

 

[Yoru]

Is it though? I never understood why this is so commonly asserted as the normal thing to assume. I don't know about you but I never even realized that Aerith was older than Cloud when I played the OG, if that's mentioned somewhere its well hidden. It's the kind of stuff you learn from reading ultimanias or booklets.

When I hear that scene I hear Claudia talking about the temptations of city girls and that he should settle down with someone who'll take care of him. When I think City girl I think Aerith, when I think "Someone who'll take care of him" I think of Tifa in mideel.
And when I hear "mature" I think of the girl running her own bar rather than the girl still living with her mother.
I've always found the technicality of Aerith being 1 year older such a weird thing to highlight as the important part when a years difference is arbitrary at best, hell, if Claudia was really talking about an older woman we should be talking about Elmyra XD

Especially when we consider that at the time of the talk Tifa was literally living next door to Claudia and Claudia was aware that Cloud liked her it seems blatantly obvious that Claudia herself specifically had Tifa in mind, and the context surrounding Clouds reaction to is makes it equally blatantly obvious that Cloud wasn't interested in his mothers opinion of women since he was already thinking about Tifa.

So if both Cloud and Claudia are thinking about Tifa during that moment, and if we don't even know anything about Aeriths age when the flashbacks happens, then why is it certainly a reference to Aerith?

It can be both.

• Tifa is the one keeping him in check. She finds him a place to sleep. Give him work and relation advices. And it can be taken as forshadowing for when she'll be the one to find the real him.
• Aerith doesn't buy his bullshit Solider persona and make fun of him to show him when he's kinda cringe and ridiculous playing bad boys.
  
  Personally I find Tifa far more mature than Aerith in Remake who's just here to have fun (as she should be)

 

[GamerSkull]

Is it though? I never understood why this is so commonly asserted as the normal thing to assume. I don't know about you but I never even realized that Aerith was older than Cloud when I played the OG, if that's mentioned somewhere its well hidden. It's the kind of stuff you learn from reading ultimanias or booklets.

When I hear that scene I hear Claudia talking about the temptations of city girls and that he should settle down with someone who'll take care of him. When I think City girl I think Aerith, when I think "Someone who'll take care of him" I think of Tifa in mideel.
And when I hear "mature" I think of the girl running her own bar rather than the girl still living with her mother.
I've always found the technicality of Aerith being 1 year older such a weird thing to highlight as the important part when a years difference is arbitrary at best, hell, if Claudia was really talking about an older woman we should be talking about Elmyra XD

Especially when we consider that at the time of the talk Tifa was literally living next door to Claudia and Claudia was aware that Cloud liked her it seems blatantly obvious that Claudia herself specifically had Tifa in mind, and the context surrounding Clouds reaction to is makes it equally blatantly obvious that Cloud wasn't interested in his mothers opinion of women since he was already thinking about Tifa.

So if both Cloud and Claudia are thinking about Tifa during that moment, and if we don't even know anything about Aeriths age when the flashbacks happens, then why is it certainly a reference to Aerith?

I understand where you’re coming from, but I do think it’s supposed to be about Aerith. Simply because of the red herring thing I mentioned and specifically because character profiles do show her to be older. I do agree with you that it isn’t present in the game, maybe perhaps it should have been but definitely think referring to her was the intention.

That being said, I definitely agree that Cloud’s “not interested” is definitely in reference to the fact that Tifa is the only girl on his mind.

 

[liuliuliu]

the thing is by just playing the game without reading any other material you are not supposed to know Aerith is older than Cloud. I don’t think her age was specifically mentioned when Claudia said that line in the game. And yes, most games don’t need to release a multimania to explain itself every other couple years, and most players don’t read them either.
I don’t think any of us will think mature is the first impression of Aerith to be honest, especially in OG
The fact that you know she is older might be what trick you to think it is Aerith.

 

[Yoru]

I understand where you’re coming from, but I do think it’s supposed to be about Aerith. Simply because of the red herring thing I mentioned and specifically because character profiles do show her to be older. I do agree with you that it isn’t present in the game, maybe perhaps it should have been but definitely think referring to her was the intention.

That being said, I definitely agree that Cloud’s “not interested” is definitely in reference to the fact that Tifa is the only girl on his mind.

I think I can agree for most of your explanation, but I think people give too much weight at the "A girl older than you". Claudia mainly wants a more mentally mature girl to accompany him on "the right path"

And as other have pointed, Tifa is definitely more mature than Aerith. You could even say she's a bit uptight, and it's Aerith's free-spirited mentality that gives her a bit of "enjoy your life" kind of spirit in Rebirth

 

[GamerSkull]

the thing is by just playing the game without reading any other material you are not supposed to know Aerith is older than Cloud. I don’t think her age was specifically mentioned when Claudia said that line in the game.
I don’t think any of us will think mature is the first impression of Aerith to be honest, especially in OG
The fact that you know she is older might be what trick you to think it is Aerith.

Hmm… good point. I don’t know. I do think it’s weighted in favor of Aerith for that reason, and well… some fans often bring it up as evidence.

Although I’m not sure how much Claudia was aware of Cloud’s feelings for Tifa. I can only recall that on Tifa’s side, where her mother seems to indicate that she knows Tifa may have a crush. But I haven’t read ToTP in a while so I’m not even sure I remember that correctly.

 

[Rin]

I had talked about this particular line of Claudia's before with some friends and tbh I think it's a dev inside joke because Claudia's description doesn't perfectly match Aerith OR Tifa but it would match if they were one character again.

 

[GamerSkull]

I had talked about this particular line of Claudia's before with some friends and tbh I think it's a dev inside joke because Claudia's description doesn't perfectly match Aerith OR Tifa but it would match if they were one character again.

Hmm… that’s interesting. Is it possibly a holdover from when they were the same character?

As I understand, the split happened quite early in the development so would that have affected dialogue scripts?

 

[Jane Fane]

It's been a long time since there were any debates. It's just people talking to walls.

Yeah, the broad strokes of canon have been worked out and are accepted by everyone other than the most extreme. But I think people will always debate/discuss the details, even if they don't change the outcomes.

I never jumped in on the NPTK dIsK hOrSe because by the time I got to it, everyone had already dissected every line and verse. I'm glad that it's been confirmed as a universal love ballad that gives greater depth and emotional resonance to all the characters.

 

[Rin]

Hmm… that’s interesting. Is it possibly a holdover from when they were the same character?

As I understand, the split happened quite early in the development so would that have affected dialogue scripts?

No, no I mean it's a purposeful callback to their early development idea and was written just for them to laugh about, not that it was written pre-character split.

 

[Eerie]

Although I’m not sure how much Claudia was aware of Cloud’s feelings for Tifa.

In ToTP that day, she learned that Cloud wanted to become a SOLDIER... through Tifa. She understood that he only told Tifa, which must have meant that he was seeing her differently than other girls, obviously. IMHO it was a little teasing and Cloud didn't get that she was talking about Tifa while describing her XD

 

[GamerSkull]

No, no I mean it's a purposeful callback to their early development idea and was written just for them to laugh about, not that it was written pre-character split.

Ah, I see. Maybe.

I still like the idea of it being a red herring because it fits with what the rest of the story shows. That CA is a red herring but still important and still something Cloud cherishes but Tifa is the actual love interest in the end.

 

[Rin]

Ah, I see. Maybe.

I still like the idea of it being a red herring because it fits with what the rest of the story shows. That CA is a red herring but still important and still something Cloud cherishes but Tifa is the actual love interest in the end.

It can be both tbh since people think it's about Aerith anyway but ToTP also introduces a potential wrench into that idea as Claudia seems to know that Cloud has a crush on Tifa.

This is why I think the line purposely refers to both girls but doesn't completely match either of them for plausible deniability but it would perfectly match both of them if they had never been split into 2 separate characters.

 

[Stiggie]

I think I can agree for most of your explanation, but I think people give too much weight at the "A girl older than you". Claudia mainly wants a more mentally mature girl to accompany him on "the right path"

And as other have pointed, Tifa is definitely more mature than Aerith. You could even say she's a bit uptight, and it's Aerith's free-spirited mentality that gives her a bit of "enjoy your life" kind of spirit in Rebirth

Honestly it reminds me a bit of this entire NPTK fiasco. People take a single line or concept and assume the entire thing is a reference to one person when really what's being expressed are general sentiments.

Clearly it was wrong to just assume NPTK is about Cloud, but I'd argue that that assumption was at least equally as valid as assuming Claudias talk is about Aerith.

 

[GamerSkull]

Ultimately, I don’t think it matters anyway. The scene is actually more about establishing Cloud’s relationship with his mom, who is about to be killed by Sephiroth.

 

[Sacky]

Ah, I see. Maybe.

I still like the idea of it being a red herring because it fits with what the rest of the story shows. That CA is a red herring but still important and still something Cloud cherishes but Tifa is the actual love interest in the end.

I have a theory its going to be shown fully that conversation in lifestream and it will be Why Cloud went into Tifa's room. She comments on him in a soldier uniform which Cloud reacts shocked too. From traces we know she and Tifa talked and thats when she learned Cloud would be a solider. A lot of traces is in Rebirth. They keep not showing that mother talk fully for a reason. I think its gonna be an expanded part of Who where you trying to impress

 

[GamerSkull]

Oh yeah, Claudia mistaking the Infantryman uniform as a SOLDIER uniform will definitely be shown again.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Is it though? I never understood why this is so commonly asserted as the normal thing to assume. I don't know about you but I never even realized that Aerith was older than Cloud when I played the OG, if that's mentioned somewhere its well hidden. It's the kind of stuff you learn from reading ultimanias or booklets.

Yes because Claudia was referring to Tifa ( when she say older' it means means a mature one and when she mean straight and narrow. Tifa is also doing this even in advent children. C/A is calling it toxic but when Cloud is in difference in savin the children she put her feet down and said "Is it a memory of us?" --> setup priorities straight the children are in danger.


Also this is Claudia knowing Cloud's little crush on Tifa.



Anyway I think they release this interview on Aerith's "No Promises to Keep" because of the negativity that she's too focus on romance rather than others. JP fans are questioning that as well.. Somehow Aerith has been redeem for me.. so she's not just thinking about love all the time. She's silently worried on her fate and others and I'm certainly happy thinking she chershed them all definitely.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, but she definitely says “older” and would be aware that Tifa is a year younger than Cloud. I’m also not sure if there any explicit “proof” that Claudia knew of Cloud’s feelings toward Tifa. Yeah, Tifa may have told her about Cloud wanting to be SOLDIER but Claudia might have thought they were close friends or whatever.

Regardless, I don’t think it fundamentally matters. Regardless of whether or not this scene is a wink wink for Aerith, I do think it ultimately fits as a red herring and Tifa has plenty of explicit stuff later that overrides this mother-son conversation.

 

[Yoru]

Regardless, I don’t think it fundamentally matters. Regardless of whether or not this scene is a wink wink for Aerith, I do think it ultimately fits as a red herring and Tifa has plenty of explicit stuff later that overrides this mother-son conversation.

You're all reading too deep on this. It's just a scene that finds an echo with the dream scene where the photograph tell them they're not really fitting as a couple.

For me it's just to show that even if someone would be good for you, it doesn't matter if it's not the one you choose.

Cloud legit quit the village to become a Soldier to impress Tifa (cause he thinks it would) and comeback as the random infantry guy. My boy is having the worst inner thoughts of his life right know and doesn't care about what his mom is telling him. At this moment he's only thinking about Tifa.

In retrospective, like @GamerSkull said, it's just a red herring when he thinks about it during Remake when he's at Aerith house. The moment when he thinks his mom was maybe talking about this kind of girl. But it doesn't matter in the end. He already chose a long time ago.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah, but she definitely says “older” and would be aware that Tifa is a year younger than Cloud. I’m also not sure if there any explicit “proof” that Claudia knew of Cloud’s feelings toward Tifa. Yeah, Tifa may have told her about Cloud wanting to be SOLDIER but Claudia might have thought they were close friends or whatever.

Regardless, I don’t think it fundamentally matters. Regardless of whether or not this scene is a wink wink for Aerith, I do think it ultimately fits as a red herring and Tifa has plenty of explicit stuff later that overrides this mother-son conversation.

In the OG, yeah I'd agree about the red herring, especially on replay. But here she still warns against city girls xD

And her realisation in ToTP shows that she understood something about Cloud that day lol:

“How is Cloud doing?” asked Tifa. She was surprised at herself. Her heart was beating fast. But that was the first question that popped into her head the moment she saw Claudia’s face.
“Yeah, I think he’s doing okay.”
“Is Cloud already in the mountains?”
“Huh?”
“I heard that the people Shinra sent are from Soldier. Since our signals got stronger, they think they’re coming to the mountains. I thought maybe Cloud would be with them.”
Claudia stared at Tifa with a puzzled look, and then finally said, “I didn’t hear anything about that. But even if he was coming, that boy won’t say a word. Not because he wants to surprise me or anything, but he just can’t be bothered.” Claudia chuckled. “The only time he contacted me was right after he left when he sent a letter saying that he officially enlisted.
“Really?! So then...you don’t know if he made it to Soldier or not?”
“No. But, why do you mention Soldier?”
Tifa realized the reason why they couldn’t understand each other.
“Because Cloud told me he wanted to join Soldier… Was I wrong?”
“Oh? So he told you that, did he?”
Claudia repeatedly said “huh” as she chopped the vegetables. Afterwards, the two lined up to cook. There were times she noticed Claudia looked like she was about to say something to her but held her tongue.

I think this shows that Claudia suddenly has to think about why Cloud told Tifa he wanted to become a SOLDIER and not herself. This is why I feel she's very much teasing him about Tifa, the mature girl from next door, who is certainly not a city girl (amusing fact that is duly noted in one of Tifa's sidequests in Costa del Sol).

I really want to have that full conversation in the Lifestream, not because CT though but because I want more of mama!Cloud and her son interactions. He did sleep there the whole time after all. In front of Sephiroth he speaks of Claudia and Tifa, so I wish to see more of their bond before she dies ;_;