SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[eleamaya]

But it IS a love song. It's a love song for ALL the people Aerith loves, not just one.

I think my concern here is just "together evermore" and "our place" "our street" since it doesnt exist in JP lyrics.... then the rest of EN lyrics should be fine and less romantic. The three phrase is the most misleading one. JP mention city, place, street without "our". And "together evermore" is like the connotation of "suki" Tifa describe of her feelings for Cloud in TOTP novel.

 

[CldS7]

the argument is getting weird here. Why do you think it is a bad thing for the song to be about everyone Aerith loves? She is a character but she has a live before she meets Cloud. It is not even about Zack, it is also about her mother and Elmyra. Both of them she didn’t get a chance to say goodbye.
It feels like CAs only want Aerith to have and only have a love life, where everything she does resolves around her feelings for Cloud, but the author says “yah, she has a live that is not resolved around romance”

It annoys me cause this is the exact same reason why they hate Tifa. “Why is her character so tied to Cloud!!! Why doesn’t she have anything else”

Now they’re getting mad at this??? Makes it make sense

 

[insanehobbit]

God, what do we even have left now that we can't spend our time debating Genius annotations of NPTK all day?

 

[Rin]

I think my concern here is just "together evermore" and "our place" "our street" since it doesnt exist in JP lyrics.... then the rest of EN lyrics should be fine and less romantic. The three phrase is the most misleading one. JP mention city, place, street without "our". And "together evermore" is like the connotation of "suki" Tifa describe of her feelings for Cloud in TOTP novel.

Yeah, that's fair! I've heard in JP the song has way less romantic connotations, which makes perfect sense with what Nojima said in this interview. I think fans just need to reconcile with the fact that not all relationships are inherently romantic in nature. Cloud's English voice actor already tried to temper fan expectations by saying not all Clouds relationships need to be sexualized, but it seems people need to hear it for Aerith as well.

I'll never tell anyone to stop shipping their preferred couple, but sometimes you just gotta take the story at face value and then happily munch on fanon content instead.

 

[Hix]

There are several things said. Nojima also basically says (paraphrase )"Nothing wrong with a love song and it does have elements of that" but that he also intended it to not be about just one person alone and made the lyrics broad (end paraphrase) he is not contradicting himself. He is saying it's not meant to be about just one person or relationship but to include all of them that are important for her. He said himself there are aspects of a love song but that's just not the whole purpose. It's about her.

Yeah, agreed with this. NPTK has elements of a love song because that's definitely been part of her life. The many months she spent with Zack and the years thereafter in which those feelings never dulled - to speak nothing of the influence he had and has in her life in other ways - are a large part of her life. But just a part.

So too, her relationship with Cloud. Confusion, uncertainty, do I like like him and do I even really know him, these are all things that are very much there in her present while singing. Nevertheless, it's a few days removed from her never even knowing he existed and a few days shy of her role in his life largely coming to a conclusion. It's important, if undefined, but just a part of what makes Aerith, Aerith.

One interesting thing to note is that, never mind how we interpret NPTK, it's clear her friends do not see it as a love song. Cloud makes no effort toward reciprocation, it doesn't ruffle Tifa's feathers in the slightest and the usual Yuffie teasing/banter is not present. They took it earnestly, at face value, as a song about Aerith's 21 years of life - just as Nojima had wanted.

And herein lies the rub, Aerith is an incredibly nuanced character with such a massive story that, were one to reduce it merely to circling those two short, Sephiroth-dominated, weeks with Cloud, one does an incredible disservice to her character. Aye, she's the last of the cetra, that alone is significant. She carries not one but two different ways of saving the entire world from destruction and the genes of her dead people. But underneath that is a complex and ultimately lonely person.

It can't be ignored that she has spent years waiting for her love to return to her as he promised, just as Elmyra waited for her own love to return each day when he never did. Compared to the two weeks of the events of the game, that 4 years of writing letters, wearing pink, continually asking about and hoping for Zack are a much more significant part of her story. So too her 15 years spent with Elmyra, comforts to each other in times when they needed it (and they certainly needed it a lot) are massive parts of her story, far far too big to be ignored.

This cannot be said of Tifa. I'm not trying to insult her by any means, but she was from early on wanting to be with Cloud as much as he with her. Her story is built on the foundations of being with Cloud, supporting him through his most difficult times and ultimately healing him. To project that role onto Aerith is to deny Tifa her own purpose in the story and, similarly, relegate all the importance that Aerith has as well. An assassination on all counts.

I hope all sides can learn a lesson from this. Clotis need to lay off the Aerith bashing. She's a deep, nuanced and beautiful character who was never a threat to them to begin with. Cleriths need to appreciate the game and Aerith for who and what they are, rather than what they want them to be. Ship who you like, by all means, but Nojima and Co deserve having their work and intended desire for it respected. I'll try harder to do this also.

 

[Graymouse]

God, what do we even have left now that we can't spend our time debating Genius annotations of NPTK all day?

Well there is always the "Cloud dances for Aerith" at Wall Market to contend with.

[/sarcasm]

 

[Maidenofwar]

I honestly don't have the time, energy, or money to settle on fanon. There comes a time when you have to bail, for some it comes sooner than later.

I agree that the devs shouldn't be attacked for this, and respect them for what they are saying. For anyone who doesn't want to settle there are other games and series, don't be baited (yes, this message is also for me)

 

[GamerSkull]

I honestly don't have the time, energy, or money to settle on fanon. There comes a time when you have to bail, for some it comes sooner than later.

Not trying to be disrespectful in any way so hope you don’t take this like that.

But how do you feel about the OG? That game essentially ends with Cloud and Tifa so CA would have to be fanon, no?

 

[Rin]

I honestly don't have the time, energy, or money to settle on fanon. There comes a time when you have to bail, for some it comes sooner than later.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that if CA isn't endgame that FF7 isn't worth spending money on and being apart of the fandom? If so, that's more than fair since, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like CA plays a big role in your overall enjoyment of the game as a whole.

 

[twosevens]

Hi! I'm new (though I've been lurking since Remake--and trying to catch up since I finished Rebirth!). Wasn't planning to post, but the NPTK reveal just got me so excited I couldn't resist.

"Till we meet again" has much more depth now she is talking about all of the people she has lost the people she wants to reunite with. "Reunion" has even more meaning now.

It also finally makes me realize why she cried tears at the end not because of Cloud (He was standing near her anyways) it was because of all of the people she wants to meet

I really love how much depth and poignancy gets added to all the date sequences with this reveal. For example, Barret forcing Cloud to sway with him to the beat of the music -- originally it felt like just a cute moment, like a dorky dad trying to get an edgy teen to loosen up. But now it's all that plus Barret himself reflecting on and appreciating his relationship with Cloud, with Aerith, with all their friends on this stage and in the audience with them. And Barret's conversation on the gondola? Now inspired by Aerith's song, which reminded him of how precious their existing bonds are and easily people may pass out of your life to be met again.

It also makes me realize that we get a glimpse of Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge at the end because those are the characters that Cloud would think of meeting again at this point if the story. I'm so curious if everyone saw someone different... For example, I'm sure Aerith didn't see that trio. Did Aerith see Zack and Ifalna in particular? Maybe even Elmyra, given her line on Corel Mountain about her?

I also do like that Red's date mentions that he knows Aerith is in danger -- which suggests that even this memorywiped Aerith knows that she's in danger, even as she's writing and performing the song. So regardless of it playing in Chapter 12 or at the credits, Aerith can absolutely be singing it for Cloud, Tifa, Barret, etc. and her fear of losing all these relationships she cherishes.

Sorry for the messy post, just very excited and need to get these thoughts out of my head so I can think about other things
hahaha. Also hope it's okay to post in LTD, the general thread is a little intimidating (and it feels like you folks appreciate all the character relationships anyway!).

 

[Hellenic]

View attachment 15261View attachment 15262View attachment 15263View attachment 15265

Well there you have it

Welp, so much for the song being just about Cloud huh.

 

[GamerSkull]

Hi! I'm new (though I've been lurking since Remake--and trying to catch up since I finished Rebirth!). Wasn't planning to post, but the NPTK reveal just got me so excited I couldn't resist.



I really love how much depth and poignancy gets added to all the date sequences with this reveal. For example, Barret forcing Cloud to sway with him to the beat of the music -- originally it felt like just a cute moment, like a dorky dad trying to get an edgy teen to loosen up. But now it's all that plus Barret himself reflecting on and appreciating his relationship with Cloud, with Aerith, with all their friends on this stage and in the audience with them. And Barret's conversation on the gondola? Now inspired by Aerith's song, which reminded him of how precious their existing bonds are and easily people may pass out of your life to be met again.

It also makes me realize that we get a glimpse of Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge at the end because those are the characters that Cloud would think of meeting again at this point if the story. I'm so curious if everyone saw someone different... For example, I'm sure Aerith didn't see that trio. Did Aerith see Zack and Ifalna in particular? Maybe even Elmyra, given her line on Corel Mountain about her?

I also do like that Red's date mentions that he knows Aerith is in danger -- which suggests that even this memorywiped Aerith knows that she's in danger, even as she's writing and performing the song. So regardless of it playing in Chapter 12 or at the credits, Aerith can absolutely be singing it for Cloud, Tifa, Barret, etc. and her fear of losing all these relationships she cherishes.

Sorry for the messy post, just very excited and need to get these thoughts out of my head so I can think about other things
hahaha. Also hope it's okay to post in LTD, the general thread is a little intimidating (and it feels like you folks appreciate all the character relationships anyway!).

Welcome!

And yeah, the Avalanche trio showing up makes a lot more sense now.

 

[CldS7]

Hi! I'm new (though I've been lurking since Remake--and trying to catch up since I finished Rebirth!). Wasn't planning to post, but the NPTK reveal just got me so excited I couldn't resist.



I really love how much depth and poignancy gets added to all the date sequences with this reveal. For example, Barret forcing Cloud to sway with him to the beat of the music -- originally it felt like just a cute moment, like a dorky dad trying to get an edgy teen to loosen up. But now it's all that plus Barret himself reflecting on and appreciating his relationship with Cloud, with Aerith, with all their friends on this stage and in the audience with them. And Barret's conversation on the gondola? Now inspired by Aerith's song, which reminded him of how precious their existing bonds are and easily people may pass out of your life to be met again.

It also makes me realize that we get a glimpse of Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge at the end because those are the characters that Cloud would think of meeting again at this point if the story. I'm so curious if everyone saw someone different... For example, I'm sure Aerith didn't see that trio. Did Aerith see Zack and Ifalna in particular? Maybe even Elmyra, given her line on Corel Mountain about her?

I also do like that Red's date mentions that he knows Aerith is in danger -- which suggests that even this memorywiped Aerith knows that she's in danger, even as she's writing and performing the song. So regardless of it playing in Chapter 12 or at the credits, Aerith can absolutely be singing it for Cloud, Tifa, Barret, etc. and her fear of losing all these relationships she cherishes.

Sorry for the messy post, just very excited and need to get these thoughts out of my head so I can think about other things
hahaha. Also hope it's okay to post in LTD, the general thread is a little intimidating (and it feels like you folks appreciate all the character relationships anyway!).

That’s what I’m saying it literally makes every date scene better

Barret Cloud, Yuffie Cloud goofing around, Cloud and Tifa holding each other. The whole party is listening to the experiences and taking it into context for each duo

 

[Sacky]

Hi! I'm new (though I've been lurking since Remake--and trying to catch up since I finished Rebirth!). Wasn't planning to post, but the NPTK reveal just got me so excited I couldn't resist.



I really love how much depth and poignancy gets added to all the date sequences with this reveal. For example, Barret forcing Cloud to sway with him to the beat of the music -- originally it felt like just a cute moment, like a dorky dad trying to get an edgy teen to loosen up. But now it's all that plus Barret himself reflecting on and appreciating his relationship with Cloud, with Aerith, with all their friends on this stage and in the audience with them. And Barret's conversation on the gondola? Now inspired by Aerith's song, which reminded him of how precious their existing bonds are and easily people may pass out of your life to be met again.

It also makes me realize that we get a glimpse of Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge at the end because those are the characters that Cloud would think of meeting again at this point if the story. I'm so curious if everyone saw someone different... For example, I'm sure Aerith didn't see that trio. Did Aerith see Zack and Ifalna in particular? Maybe even Elmyra, given her line on Corel Mountain about her?

I also do like that Red's date mentions that he knows Aerith is in danger -- which suggests that even this memorywiped Aerith knows that she's in danger, even as she's writing and performing the song. So regardless of it playing in Chapter 12 or at the credits, Aerith can absolutely be singing it for Cloud, Tifa, Barret, etc. and her fear of losing all these relationships she cherishes.

Sorry for the messy post, just very excited and need to get these thoughts out of my head so I can think about other things
hahaha. Also hope it's okay to post in LTD, the general thread is a little intimidating (and it feels like you folks appreciate all the character relationships anyway!).

general right now just seems to be theories and not much else

 

[twosevens]

That’s what I’m saying it literally makes every date scene better

Barret Cloud, Yuffie Cloud goofing around, Cloud and Tifa holding each other. The whole party is listening to the experiences and taking it into context for each duo

Yes! Everyone feels a little more aware of their connections to one another and how fleeting those connections can be because of Aerith's song. Adds another layer to the gondola conversations -- maybe they were willing to be more vulnerable because of the song?

For example,

• Barret: thinking about those he will meet again (Myrna) leads to this (also potentially Tifa's near death experience)
• Yuffie: thinking about the SOLDIER she'd like to meet again
• Aerith: thinking about Zack of course, and wanting to meet the real Cloud

Just so wonderful, I loveee this new context. For me, it definitely elevated a moment that felt a little fanservicey (a character having a generic Disney moment) into something beautiful and nuanced.

 

[Maidenofwar]

The OG was where they said to have two heroines, and the hero waver between them (Kitase), and depending on how you played, and without the benefits of Ultimanias and such, you could have a completely different, memorable and valid experience. Already they change so much from saying Aerith was one who brought out Cloud's rare smile and to melt his frosty exterior. I realise things are different now.

I already accepted CA to not be the only canon a long time ago, I made my peace with that. Now if they go full ZA and CT it's their story, it's mainly to other CAs that if they'll feel more respected, validated or their money's worth elsewhere that's valid. Yes, CA means alot to me too.

 

[twosevens]

general right now just seems to be theories and not much else

Yeah, and even a few weeks ago it felt like the character relationship stuff could be a bit tricky to talk about! But this thread feels very level headed

 

[Stiggie]

I honestly don't have the time, energy, or money to settle on fanon. There comes a time when you have to bail, for some it comes sooner than later.

I agree that the devs shouldn't be attacked for this, and respect them for what they are saying. For anyone who doesn't want to settle there are other games and series, don't be baited (yes, this message is also for me)

Rather than taking your interpretation and dismissing the game if it isn't validated wouldn't it be better to see what is validated and to see if that story is worth enjoying?
I mean, I almost always have things in stories where I go "I think this would have been better if". But rather than hold on to this fantasy of my ideal story and comparing everything to that and finding that it inevitably comes up short I think I'd rather just let that fantasy go and see what value I can find in what I DID get and try to maximize the enjoyment I can get from it.

Like, I suppose I get the sentiment because I do something similar when I talk about how much I hate the changes in remake and that I just wanted a mostly 1-on-1 remake, but there I think it's more valid since there is an actual real product to compare it to rather than a fantasy. But even when I complain about that I almost always get the same reaction: "just enjoy it for what it is and stop being toxic, you'll always have the OG". But like, you'll always have your interpretation of the OG as well, you can always fantasize you know.

Can I ask, what is it about the Cloti interpretation of the game that you find unsatisfying? Cloud and Tifa are adorable, Zack and Aerith are adorable, no one loses, it makes sense, the characters and their struggles are deep and great....I just...I don't get what a romance between Cloud and Aerith would add to this story, I just don't see it, I only ever see the negatives so I just....I can't relate, at all. To me, all the most engaging analyses and descriptions of Cloud and Aerith....have always come from Clotis.

Edit: Basically what I'm saying is. Why isn't Aerith being the savior of the planet who had deep bonds of friendship and spiritual love with everyone she met enough? Why does she also need to be in love with Cloud?
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

 

[GamerSkull]

The OG was where they said to have two heroines, and the hero waver between them (Kitase), and depending on how you played, and without the benefits of Ultimanias and such, you could have a completely different, memorable and valid experience. Already they change so much from saying Aerith was one who brought out Cloud's rare smile and to melt his frosty exterior. I realise things are different now.

I already accepted CA to not be the only canon a long time ago, I made my peace with that. Now if they go full ZA and CT it's their story, it's mainly to other CAs that if they'll feel more respected, validated or their money's worth elsewhere that's valid. Yes, CA means alot to me too.

Hmm, yes he does waver to some degree but reading between the lines and with the compilation, it’s pretty clear he ultimately chose Tifa.

Now I can still see that being possible whilst simultaneously still cherishing Aerith, like Cloud’s VA said not every relationship necessarily needs to be romantic.

Ultimately, Aerith is dead in the OG and I doubt the writers want Cloud to basically wait to reunite with her by dying eventually when one of the primary things is moving on from loss but still cherishing the memories you had of them.

But I suppose there is enough plausible deniability to have a different take… but I think it’s pretty clear if you read between the lines.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I honestly don't have the time, energy, or money to settle on fanon. There comes a time when you have to bail, for some it comes sooner than later.

I agree that the devs shouldn't be attacked for this, and respect them for what they are saying. For anyone who doesn't want to settle there are other games and series, don't be baited (yes, this message is also for me)

I hope this won't come off as annoying or anything because it seems that we have very different views on shipping. I won't try to persuade you or change your mind either because ultimately you do what's best for you. I also know that this is the debate thread but I really want to remind everyone that no one, including the creators, other fans, the characters being romantic or platonic or familial, can't and shouldn't take away anyone's enjoyment of what they enjoyed about them and their bond in the first place. No one needs to "win" to enjoy what they enjoy (especially when everyone enjoys what they enjoy before winning, you know).

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think going into FF7 with the expectation that any ship needs to be “validated” is part of the problem with this fanbase. Most people have this attitude innocently because let’s face it, things weren’t always this well-defined. To an extent, I understand why some might feel that they’ve been burned.

Personally, I dislike shipping for this exact reason. At it’s most extreme, you get a delusional weirdo who uses an AI-generator to make the character’s voice harass a company and pretends to send yakuza after devs.

It’s not about ships, and it’s never been about ships. It’s basic storytelling between characters with established feelings. Had Tifa been the one to die in the OG and never get a chance at a happy life with Cloud, I would feel the exact same way.

 

[CldS7]

I think going into FF7 with the expectation that any ship needs to be “validated” is part of the problem with this fanbase. Most people have this attitude innocently because let’s face it, things weren’t always this well-defined. To an extent, I understand why some might feel that they’ve been burned.

Personally, I dislike shipping for this exact reason. At it’s most extreme, you get a delusional weirdo who uses an AI-generator to make the character’s voice harass a company and pretends to send yakuza after devs.

It’s not about ships, and it’s never been about ships. It’s basic storytelling between characters with established feelings. Had Tifa been the one to die in the OG and never get a chance at a happy life with Cloud, I would feel the exact same way.

This is not a war on ships and never been about ships, it’s a war on the literal narrative and plot of the game. That’s why this discourse has continued for nearly 30 years.

It’s always been a war on narrative and trying to change the entire biggest reveal of the entire game

 

[Stiggie]

I think going into FF7 with the expectation that any ship needs to be “validated” is part of the problem with this fanbase. Most people have this attitude innocently because let’s face it, things weren’t always this well-defined. To an extent, I understand why some might feel that they’ve been burned.

Personally, I dislike shipping for this exact reason. At it’s most extreme, you get a delusional weirdo who uses an AI-generator to make the character’s voice harass a company and pretends to send yakuza after devs.

It’s not about ships, and it’s never been about ships. It’s basic storytelling between characters with established feelings. Had Tifa been the one to die in the OG and never get a chance at a happy life with Cloud, I would feel the exact same way.

So would I, that having been said if that had happened I don't think I'd have been in this community complaining about it. I've been burned like that before, hell, this has happened with the vast majority of my favorite ships. What I did was stop watching and go somewhere else, so I suppose I can at least understand the sentiment of "this or nothing". I have arguments why I think those decisions ruined the stories, but I did accept it and move on.

This is not a war on ships and never been about ships, it’s a war on the literal narrative and plot of the game. That’s why this discourse has continued for nearly 30 years.

It’s always been a war on narrative and trying to change the entire biggest reveal of the entire game

Agreed, the problem here isn't who Cloud loves, but how that "small" change snowballs into changing almost every aspect of the story.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, typically my issue with these is that they are disregarding what the story is putting down. If Aerith’s and Tifa’s roles were reversed, I’d probably be telling CT fans that it’s cool as fanon but it’s not what happened.

For instance, saying Cloud’s mom referred to an older woman. Yes, I would agree that it is certainly a reference to Aerith, but I don’t see it as proof of canonicity. It’s just another thing to throw on to the pile of “getting sad that Aerith’s life was cut short.”

A red herring, like I’ve said in the past.

 

[Lex]

The OG was where they said to have two heroines, and the hero waver between them (Kitase), and depending on how you played, and without the benefits of Ultimanias and such, you could have a completely different, memorable and valid experience. Already they change so much from saying Aerith was one who brought out Cloud's rare smile and to melt his frosty exterior. I realise things are different now.

I already accepted CA to not be the only canon a long time ago, I made my peace with that. Now if they go full ZA and CT it's their story, it's mainly to other CAs that if they'll feel more respected, validated or their money's worth elsewhere that's valid. Yes, CA means alot to me too.

This is one of the reasons I've always respected your views as a Clerith, because unlike some of the insane takes on Twitter you acknowledge canon as a whole.

I would say don't be disheartened tbh. I think there's plenty there for Clerith as a ship in Rebirth and who knows what they'll do in the next game. My position has always been that Aerith and Cloud were supposed to look like the perfect couple until tragedy strikes, to give it more weight and impact. It's designed to be a red herring, but that doesn't mean they don't feel anything for each other. It contributes to Cloud's loss of self after she dies, then Tifa puts him back together and he fully remembers who he is and how he felt/ feels about Tifa (confirming mutual feelings).

I think where we maybe differ in our opinions is in how that plays out in the OG - no matter what you do, Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings for each other (high affection or low affection - this happens anyway, the only difference is how explicit the scene is) and I think it's naive for anyone to assume that "confirming their feelings for each other" isn't romantic or is somehow a choice, even in the low affection version of the scene.

It's not just the players to blame for that, because as I've said in the past it's perfectly understandable that people would play through VII and overlook the romantic stuff between Cloud and Tifa, especially if all you're thinking about is Cloud and Aerith - will we get her back? Can they be re-united? These are the thoughts that run through some players heads when they play OG for the first time. Players who are hung up on that relationship are actively not going to acknowledge another love interest when all they're thinking about is a happy ending for the couple they liked.

The closest parallel I've seen in media was the ending of The Legend of Korra, where half the fanbase were convinced there was nothing romantic going on because they completely overlooked all the buildup and hints. It took the creators to come out and say it outright immediately after it aired for people to stop arguing that Makorra (idk I don't remember that ship name, it was awful anyway) was the true endgame.

Just take heart you're not one of the Twitter crazies. Someone told me the other day the apparent read on Twitter regarding the new Gongaga scene is that Tifa was trying to take advantage of Cloud in his weakened mental state "which is disgusting" etc. These people are absolutely unhinged.