SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LNK]

Rather than taking your interpretation and dismissing the game if it isn't validated wouldn't it be better to see what is validated and to see if that story is worth enjoying?

Right? I was full on wanting to see Cloud kill Aerith this time around, and him/Sephiroth be the final bosses of Rebirth. Clearly didn't happen, and yet, Rebirth is still looking to be one of my favorite games of all time

 

[GamerSkull]

Right? I was full on wanting to see Cloud kill Aerith this time around, and him/Sephiroth be the final bosses of Rebirth. Clearly didn't happen, and yet, Rebirth is still looking to be one of my favorite games of all time

That would have been dark, wtf.

 

[LNK]

It can be both tbh since people think it's about Aerith anyway but ToTP also introduces a potential wrench into that idea as Claudia seems to know that Cloud has a crush on Tifa.

This is why I think the line purposely refers to both girls but doesn't completely match either of them for plausible deniability but it would perfectly match both of them if they had never been split into 2 separate characters.

I'd argue it's not about Aerith at all. At that point in time Claudia nor Cloud knew Aerith. How could she even be referring to her?

 

[GamerSkull]

I'd argue it's not about Aerith at all. At that point in time Claudia nor Cloud knew Aerith. How could she even be referring to her?

Well, yeah… more that it’s “foreshadowing” rather than explicitly about Aerith.

But still a red herring.

 

[LNK]

That would have been dark, wtf.

For sure, but FF7 was already dark. What I was suggesting would've just taken it a step further. Cloud already almost killed her in the OG

 

[GamerSkull]

For sure, but FF7 was already dark. What I was suggesting would've just taken it a step further. Cloud already almost killed her in the OG

I just feel like it would be hella hard to come back from that one and still have happy Cloud later.

 

[LNK]

Well, yeah… more that it’s “foreshadowing” rather than explicitly about Aerith.

But still a red herring.

I don't see how it's a red herring either. The statement had nothing to do with Aerith.

 

[LNK]

I just feel like it would be hella hard to come back from that one and still have happy Cloud later.

Sure, it would be. But, he already did a couple things that one could make that same argument for.

 

[Rin]

Wait, why is Romeo/Juliet a terrible love story?

Most people consider it a horrible love story because Romeo was fickle. Before he meets Juliet, he was fawning over another girl but forgets all about her when he meets Juliet. And Juliet is naive, believing that Romeo only has eyes for her when in reality he's just a teenage boy with wandering eyes. Then, they become so embroiled in a toxic mess that leads to their (unnecessary) deaths. It's a cautionary tale through and through. It was never written to be romanticized or idealized.

 

[LNK]

Most people consider it a horrible love story because Romeo was fickle. Before he meets Juliet, he was fawning over another girl but forgets all about her when he meets Juliet. And Juliet is naive, believing that Romeo only has eyes for her when in reality he's just a teenage boy with wandering eyes. Then, they become so embroiled in a toxic mess that leads to their (unnecessary) deaths. It's a cautionary tale through and through. It was never written to be romanticized or idealized.

I mean, that all sounds like a reflection of humans/relationships (not all). Do people actually think a good love story is only when two people live happily ever after?

 

[shady]

In the OG, yeah I'd agree about the red herring, especially on replay. But here she still warns against city girls xD

And her realisation in ToTP shows that she understood something about Cloud that day lol:



I think this shows that Claudia suddenly has to think about why Cloud told Tifa he wanted to become a SOLDIER and not herself. This is why I feel she's very much teasing him about Tifa, the mature girl from next door, who is certainly not a city girl (amusing fact that is duly noted in one of Tifa's sidequests in Costa del Sol).

I really want to have that full conversation in the Lifestream, not because CT though but because I want more of mama!Cloud and her son interactions. He did sleep there the whole time after all. In front of Sephiroth he speaks of Claudia and Tifa, so I wish to see more of their bond before she dies ;_;

I think at some point in Part 3 we will absolutely see the Nibelheim conversation between Cloud and his Mum in full, I believe there was a reason why they headache'd there way out of a lot of that conversation, I think Tifa is and of course his identity is a part of that. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the moment from TOTP where Claudia and Tifa talk as well, or rather, kinda hoping for that one. Hell it would be nice in the Lifestream to see maybe Tifa's mum, but also the times Cloud and Tifa used to go to each others houses no problem and play together as kids, before things fell apart.

 

[Neomia]

To my knowledge, Claudia doesn't mention an 'older girl' at all in Japanese. She says 'big sister' (meaning someone mature and lady-like, not literally a big sister). I think arguing about the real intent behind this line is a waste of brain cells if it's just another botched translation issue. She's just a mother who wants the best for her son!

 

[LNK]

I think arguing about the real intent behind this line is a waste of brain cells if it's just another botched translation issue. She's just a mother who wants the best for her son!

Even if it was a botched translation, it wouldn't matter. As you said, it's just a mother who wants what she thinks is the best for her son. In the context of things, there is nothing about the statement that is in reference to Aerith.

 

[Rin]

I mean, that all sounds like a reflection of humans/relationships (not all). Do people actually think a good love story is only when two people live happily ever after?

No, not at all but I don't think that's what people mean when they say it's a horrible love story lol. Romeo and Juliet is a classic, but it's not something to strive for, so when CAs use R&J as an example of what they want for their ship it makes people look at them sideways because that kind of narrative is the very antithesis of Cloud and Aeriths entire arc and characterization.

Romeo and Juliet is a good tragic story, and it's an even better cautionary tale, but it's not actually romantic in nature. Idk if I'm making sense here lol

 

[LNK]

No, not at all but I don't think that's what people mean when they say it's a horrible love story lol. Romeo and Juliet is a classic, but it's not something to strive for, so when CAs use R&J as an example of what they want for their ship it makes people look at them sideways because that kind of narrative is the very antithesis of Cloud and Aeriths entire arc and characterization.

Romeo and Juliet is a good tragic story, and it's an even better cautionary tale, but it's not actually romantic in nature. Idk if I'm making sense here lol

Lol you are making sense, and I get it. I think fans should be more specific if they're saying it's a horrible love story though.

 

[Graymouse]

Luckily that this is FF7 and not R & J because both lovers die tragically.

I don't think my heart can handle if Cloud and Aerith both die in this story.

Which why the premise of Cloud waiting to die to be with his beloved makes zero sense and quite honestly a piss poor writing narratively speaking.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

And here this old Devil always took Romeo and Juliette to be a comedy about dumbass kids ruining their lives over infatuation

 

[looneymoon]

um so I'm avoiding reading this thread too much because I'm not done Rebirth yet.

I did pass Costa del Sol and

Spoiler

the game makes it extremely clear that Aerith and Tifa like each other more than either of them like Cloud.

 

[eleamaya]

Luckily that this is FF7 and not R & J because both lovers die tragically.

Well, here I am as Zack/Aerith's shipper

 

[Yoru]

Well, here I am as Zack/Aerith's shipper

This is the way.

 

[tenabrus]

My Romeo and Juliet defense sleeper agent status has activated.

Romeo and Juliet isn't a comedy in the Shakespearean sense, because it ends with death. It's structured like one for the first half of the play, but then the old grudges come to boil, characters start dying, and our young lovers take their lives tragically. It is true that Shakespeare was happy to (through the Friar) point out the wavering heart of Romeo and of young love, but it's also true that Shakespeare made an effort to portraying Romeo's love for Juliet to be more sincere and meaningful than for Rosaline. When Romeo talks about Rosaline, he cobs off of other poets to describe his feelings; when Romeo meets Juliet, he and Juliet's conversation composes a sonnet.

Ultimately what the story is about is declared right in the beginning of the play:

From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-crossed lovers take their life;
Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
Doth with their death bury their parents’ strife.

Two young lovers die as a result of their parents' senseless grudge-holding. What should have been a joyful thing (a comedy ending in marriage) became a funeral (a tragedy ending in death). The lovers being quite ridiculous, having fallen in love over a short period of time, extremely emotional, etc, isn't anything out of the ordinary for Shakespeare's lovers. Shakespeare is not highlighting their folly, but their parents'.

...Now that being said... I don't really see Cloud and Aerith's story sharing anything with Romeo and Juliet in particular. I could wax on myself about why, but ultimately, Cloud surviving on happily (implied in the 97 FF7 and for sure in Advent Children) de facto makes it not a Romeo and Juliet love story. Our Romeo can't find peace and fulfillment when his Juliet dies, or it's not a Romeo & Juliet story.

 

[Yoru]

...Now that being said... I don't really see Cloud and Aerith's story sharing anything with Romeo and Juliet in particular. I could wax on myself about why, but ultimately, Cloud surviving on happily (implied in the 97 FF7 and for sure in Advent Children) de facto makes it not a Romeo and Juliet love story. Our Romeo can't find peace and fulfillment when his Juliet dies, or it's not a Romeo & Juliet story.

I used the RxJ reference to pay tribute to the old Clerith narrative since the end of FF7 and AC that basically say : Cloud is suicidal and just want to die to join Aerith.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I’m convinced they’re self inserts and don’t like Aerith

I’ve never heard any of them speaking about Aerith in TOTP once

Knowing what I know about several members of the old guard, this hypothesis is not without merit.

To be fair, it’s a tragedy not a romance. And it’s actually more about the feud between their two families than it is about them.

I think people nowadays regard it as a star-crossed love but I don’t think Shakespeare’s message was about that really.

Dunno why I wanted to defend Romeo and Juliet but here we are.

He never intended it to be thought of as a grand romance for the ages, I'm fairly certain.

Well... You can see how they thorn the narrative when they want something. So they may have not read the same Romeo x Juliet as everyone else.

Had either Romeo or Juliet been just a minute less hasty, their tragedy could have been avoided.

I think the point of the story is actually that warring factions can fail to see what is truly important, which is the people that exist within them, and this divide will only create a vicious cycle of tragedy.

I think that's part of it, but not all. It's also about keeping yourself in check even in the midst of apparent tragedy and not rushing off the deep end in general.

Hi! I'm new (though I've been lurking since Remake--and trying to catch up since I finished Rebirth!). Wasn't planning to post, but the NPTK reveal just got me so excited I couldn't resist.



I really love how much depth and poignancy gets added to all the date sequences with this reveal. For example, Barret forcing Cloud to sway with him to the beat of the music -- originally it felt like just a cute moment, like a dorky dad trying to get an edgy teen to loosen up. But now it's all that plus Barret himself reflecting on and appreciating his relationship with Cloud, with Aerith, with all their friends on this stage and in the audience with them. And Barret's conversation on the gondola? Now inspired by Aerith's song, which reminded him of how precious their existing bonds are and easily people may pass out of your life to be met again.

It also makes me realize that we get a glimpse of Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge at the end because those are the characters that Cloud would think of meeting again at this point if the story. I'm so curious if everyone saw someone different... For example, I'm sure Aerith didn't see that trio. Did Aerith see Zack and Ifalna in particular? Maybe even Elmyra, given her line on Corel Mountain about her?

I also do like that Red's date mentions that he knows Aerith is in danger -- which suggests that even this memorywiped Aerith knows that she's in danger, even as she's writing and performing the song. So regardless of it playing in Chapter 12 or at the credits, Aerith can absolutely be singing it for Cloud, Tifa, Barret, etc. and her fear of losing all these relationships she cherishes.

Sorry for the messy post, just very excited and need to get these thoughts out of my head so I can think about other things
hahaha. Also hope it's okay to post in LTD, the general thread is a little intimidating (and it feels like you folks appreciate all the character relationships anyway!).

As the resident big scary dragon of the LTD threads, you are welcome.

Wait, why is Romeo/Juliet a terrible love story?

More accurately, it's a story about a relationship where the two people involved are terrible together because both people involved are impetuous to their own demise.

Most people consider it a horrible love story because Romeo was fickle. Before he meets Juliet, he was fawning over another girl but forgets all about her when he meets Juliet. And Juliet is naive, believing that Romeo only has eyes for her when in reality he's just a teenage boy with wandering eyes. Then, they become so embroiled in a toxic mess that leads to their (unnecessary) deaths. It's a cautionary tale through and through. It was never written to be romanticized or idealized.

Also this. The moment the "gonna fake a suicide, BTW, could you deliver this letter to my boyfriend so he knows it's fake and doesn't freak out thinking it's real, I'm gonna do it before confirming he knows the plan K thx later" it turns from a love story to a story about dumb stupid teenagers who really need more supervision. That's not me being a cranky old man, I thought they were dumbasses when I first read the thing.

Of course their parents and other relatives are also fucking morons for not watching over their children and creating the bullshit scenario they're in, but they're not the focus of the play.

 

[tenabrus]

I used the RxJ reference to pay tribute to the old Clerith narrative since the end of FF7 and AC that basically say : Cloud is suicidal and just want to die to join Aerith.

No, no I do get that. I'm just defending the play's intention. I agree with you there's nothing particularly Romeo & Juliet about it. If nothing else, FFXV is absolutely going for the tragic star-crossed lovers angle and it ends with them actually being reunited in death, not smiling at your two dead friends who are also in love walking into the afterlife together while you stay to live out your life with your family.

 

[eleamaya]

What should have been a joyful thing (a comedy ending in marriage) became a funeral (a tragedy ending in death). The lovers being quite ridiculous, having fallen in love over a short period of time, extremely emotional, etc, isn't anything out of the ordinary for Shakespeare's lovers.

...Now that being said... I don't really see Cloud and Aerith's story sharing anything with Romeo and Juliet in particular. I could wax on myself about why, but ultimately, Cloud surviving on happily (implied in the 97 FF7 and for sure in Advent Children) de facto makes it not a Romeo and Juliet love story. Our Romeo can't find peace and fulfillment when his Juliet dies, or it's not a Romeo & Juliet story.

Zack/Aerith's sequence is more similar to Romeo/Juliet
Nojima himself describe them as "although I call it romance, they're still young and since I couldn’t spend too much time in-game depicting “how they came to love each other”, so I made it seem like they suddenly met and fell in love in the first sight"

1) Fall in love in the first sight, Zack has been attracted to Cissnei before meeting Aerith
2) Incident that make the guy separated away from the girl: Nibelheim
3) A third party help to deliver her letters and unite the two but fail: Tseng
4) Guy miss the chance Lawrence wanna help because of circumstances so he headed back to the city and the church where she's been despite the death threat; died before reuniting with her
5) The girl die later on with the same cause as the boy: ZA is brutally murdered, RJ is committing suicide

I want Zack/Aerith to be acknowledge as one of star-cross lovers story especially in the video game history. Everytime I tried to edit Wiki, the admin always revert it back and put Cloud/Aerith