SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

Well to be very very fair to a brand new gamer, with no context whatsoever to the OG games - if I'm just beginning by playing Remake it just feels like I've been given 3 options of women who seem to really like me. I get a train roll with one and it looks like they almost kiss, I get a kiss on a cheek from one, and I have one that tells me "not to fall in love with me", I really might just have the impression that the second game allows me a "chose your own adventure option", especially since this whole "multiple branching romances" IS the norm nowadays.

I don't think the newcomers, save for the more astute, comb the context too hard, or realize the Cloud is significantly warmer to Tifa compared to the rest of the team. From what I've seen a good part of the new gamer population just go - oh Cloud is so stoic. Cloud doesn't express anything. He doesn't seem to react positively even when 2 beautiful women show that they really seem to like him.


I don't want Part 3's marketing to lean anymore into this options bull shit, or love triangle bullshit, or let's see how "we still need to pander to Cloud and Aerith fans cos we still need their money" bull shit.

All will depend of the last part. For now, all they did is really good from a gamedesign point of you. Cloud is not himself. We know that as OG players. So you can give the illusion of choice for now (because let's be honnest, it's just an illusion. Cloud has his own agenda and you can't really do anything about it except gain access to bonus scenes)

I'm just super excited to see if the moment Cloud regains his memories and himself, the game doesn't let you choose any dialogue option and drop this affection system. That would be so sick and fitting.

All we can do is wait..

 

[Yumelinh]

I pretty much always lost all my ships in anime/manga lol. That's why I'm never against headcanon stuff and all that. Because you care for characters the author doesn't seem to be interested for.

But that's what it is. A headcanon. A personal preference. And that's my criticism of a certain (limited) branch of the CAs fandom. Their desire to impose something the game (even more with the remakes) doesn't seem to be portraying.

I've had my fair share of wins and losses, which is why I can sympathise with CA frustration. I suppose we all crave validation from the plot, wanting to know that our assumptions are correct. However, in the end, we must all come to terms with what's canon and continue enjoying what we like, even without the author's approval. Everything is possible in the hands of the fandom, and that's the fun of it. I have read fanfics more well written than the stories that inspired them, lol.

Also, one thing I always try to do (and the reason I enjoy lurking around here) is to keep my own interpretations and assumptions in check. Having your opinions questioned once in a while, rather than just surrounding yourself with people who echo the same thoughts as yours, makes it much easier to accept the message that the author is delivering, even if it's not what you wanted or interpreted.

 

[Yoru]

I've had my fair share of wins and losses, which is why I can sympathise with CA frustration. I suppose we all crave validation from the plot, wanting to know that our assumptions are correct. However, in the end, we must all come to terms with what's canon and continue enjoying what we like, even without the author's approval. Everything is possible in the hands of the fandom, and that's the fun of it. I have read fanfics more well written than the stories that inspired them, lol.

Also, one thing I always try to do (and the reason I enjoy lurking around here) is to keep my own interpretations and assumptions in check. Having your opinions questioned once in a while, rather than just surrounding yourself with people who echo the same thoughts as yours, makes it much easier to accept the message that the author is delivering, even if it's not what you wanted or interpreted.

Pretty much yeah.

But again, I don't think it's really comparable with FF7. Most of the time, in manga, the ship's resolution comes at the very end, a bit on the author's whim. There's almost never any forshadowing. You pick a side and you pray lol. Even more in romance manga. Their goal is to keep it secret until the end. So they're not giving you too much answers during the story.

In FF7 the ship war can't exist anymore in the first half of the story. And the second half pretty much explains that a war wasn't even possible to begin with because the main love interest had already made his choice a long time ago.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Wait what ? People are still doubting about Aerith x Tifa ? If the game made something very clear is that they're BFF, love each other, respect each other and talk about everything that's wrong.

- yeaah some die hard cloti ( I'm a bit die hard too but I can't think of Aerith as horrible person ) but something really in Rebirth she really tested my patience to be honest. I just accepted it and ride along with her..


How can say it? Its like how a man thinks a woman's friendship is most of the conversations we see is them buying clothes, talking bout boys and stuff yet Aerith is going around on dates with the same man Tifa likes.

I'm not sure who is it but someone just said it here Aerith is just naturally Flirty and very forward with her feelings because she wanted to be 'in the moment' and want to treasure everything by doing it now rather than regretting later. Can't say I'm not 100% guilty of not agreeing but I'm soo glad they release video of NPTK ( now I know she treasures everyone [cuz Rebirth sure seems like she's only focus on cloud] but the song is like a redeemer for me. I'm glad Nojima and others cleared it up.

 

[Yoru]

- yeaah some die hard cloti ( I'm a bit die hard too but I can't think of Aerith as horrible person ) but something really in Rebirth she really tested my patience to be honest. I just accepted it and ride along with her..


How can say it? Its like how a man thinks a woman's friendship is most of the conversations we see is them buying clothes, talking bout boys and stuff yet Aerith is going around on dates with the same man Tifa likes.

I'm not sure who is it but someone just said it here Aerith is just naturally Flirty and very forward with her feelings because she wanted to be 'in the moment' and want to treasure everything by doing it now rather than regretting later. Can't say I'm not 100% guilty of not agreeing but I'm soo glad they release video of NPTK ( now I know she treasures everyone [cuz Rebirth sure seems like she's only focus on cloud] but the song is like a redeemer for me. I'm glad Nojima and others cleared it up.

I think you're too harsh with her lol

She's a bit flirty but pretty much moking Cloud too. So it's not really that cringe to be honest. More like nice banters between two close friends. And she's doing the same with Tifa too. So it just shows it's her personnality.

The only moment in-game where I was kinda disapointed with her, it's the dream date. But when you stop thinking about the TLD and just understand she's asking for a last "Zack date" knowing she'll die very soon, it's bittersweet and in the end i have more pity than anything.

 

[CldS7]

- yeaah some die hard cloti ( I'm a bit die hard too but I can't think of Aerith as horrible person ) but something really in Rebirth she really tested my patience to be honest. I just accepted it and ride along with her..


How can say it? Its like how a man thinks a woman's friendship is most of the conversations we see is them buying clothes, talking bout boys and stuff yet Aerith is going around on dates with the same man Tifa likes.

I'm not sure who is it but someone just said it here Aerith is just naturally Flirty and very forward with her feelings because she wanted to be 'in the moment' and want to treasure everything by doing it now rather than regretting later. Can't say I'm not 100% guilty of not agreeing but I'm soo glad they release video of NPTK ( now I know she treasures everyone [cuz Rebirth sure seems like she's only focus on cloud] but the song is like a redeemer for me. I'm glad Nojima and others cleared it up.

yeh its like this is how a man thinks female friendships are and its so off-putting

Also being dragged around by someone whose personality is extremely annoying wears you downs so quickly

tbh ive never been a fan of how they've written Aerith and how she is written in this game. I feel like every character has evolved in ways from 1997 but her. She's still the same.

Her singing a song about all her bonds and relationships is probably the thing that most resonates with me in the game but its still stupid how she suddenly turned into Whitney Huston

 

[CldS7]

idk the game forces you to be in Aeriths part of the party on multiple occasions but it doesn't enhance their relationship or do any character work, its literally her just being overbearing as fuck and the player not having a say in it

that bit where she starts speaking about romance when you're seeing Jessie is so stupid

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I think you're too harsh with her lol

yeaah maybe I am sorry~

yeh its like this is how a man thinks female friendships are and its so off-putting

Also being dragged around by someone whose personality is extremely annoying wears you downs so quickly

Zack would have paired that energy Aerith's soo extrovert hehehe I'm an introvert myself sooo I understand Cloud a bit.

I wanted an indept scenes other than those though I'm not saying its a bad thing but I dont think there is much women in that board room when they finalize the story. But eitherway I know AERTI treasures each other and Tifa cries more than anyone on that last scene.

She wrote that song in that moment because she wanted more time with everyone, because of Cloud she's able to find Tifa, Barret, Yuffie and the rest

 

[CldS7]

yeaah maybe I am sorry~



I wanted an indept scenes other than those though I'm not saying its a bad thing but I dont think there is much women in that board room when they finalize the story. But eitherway I know AERTI treasures each other and Tifa cries more than anyone on that last scene..

I never got the sense that Aerith treasured Tifa like Tifa treasured her this game at all which is probably my biggest gripe

Tifa treasured Aerith -> Aerith kept forcing everything to Cloud -> Cloud starting at anything

I dont like it. Especially the last chapter

 

[Yoru]

The first "affection" quest tuto it's her telling Cloud to treasure his relation with Tifa. At this moment of the story she's not supposed to know Tifa have feelings for Cloud. She lost her "Ultimate Aerith" memories and they all just fled Midgar. They know each others for 2 days lol.

So yeah her "we were on a date" is nothing much. She's not mean to Tifa. She doesn't know her too well yet.

And after that, there's nothing too disrespectful. She talks about her ex, search for him in Gongaga. Doesn't say much in Cosmo Canyon.

The only moment when she's selfish is the dream date. And it's such a weird moment (in the sense it's not reality if you know what i mean) that you can't really blame her.

 

[CldS7]

The first "affection" quest tuto it's her telling Cloud to treasure his relation with Tifa. At this moment of the story she's not supposed to know Tifa have feelings for Cloud. She lost her "Ultimate Aerith" memories and they all just fled Midgar. They know each others for 2 days lol.

So yeah her "we were on a date" is nothing much. She's not mean to Tifa. She doesn't know her too well yet.

And after that, there's nothing too disrespectful. She talks about her ex, search for him in Gongaga. Doesn't say much in Cosmo Canyon.

The only moment when she's selfish is the dream date. And it's such a weird moment (in the sense it's not reality if you know what i mean) that you can't really blame her.

idk its always Tifa -> towards Aerith other then the 'date' in Kalm

and its the scene at the end I dislike the most tbh. Her just walking past Tifa whilst she's the one most upset just looks and feels ridiculously out of place

 

[Stiggie]

I shipped Ichiruki too!! and oh boy, the slap we got with that ending was out of this world! We got humbled real hard So, if you ever wonder why I'm so cautious about claiming victory, no matter how safe a ship seems to be... it's because of them, lol.

That said, I reread Bleach recently as well, without that huge weight of caring too much about it as I did in the past, and I still came to the same conclusion e. that IR would make much more sense, imo (only behind an open ending with no ships, tbh). But if there's another thing that Bleach has taught me, it's that the author will do what he wanted/intended regardless of whether it makes sense to the story or the fans. No shade to Kubo btw, but it's more like a realisation that there are people behind these stories. So if they wake up tomorrow and decide to make, idk... Cloud and Cissnei canon, they will do it, and there's nothing we can do about it. That's why, no matter how confident I am about the story being told, for me, the game is over when it's actually over, lol.

Ehh, I never understood why people thought rukia and ichigo were a thing tbh, to me that was exactly the same experience I've had with FFVII, people shipping something that in my eyes clearly wasn't romantic while the real love interrest was right there

 

[Maidenofwar]

Tifa withdrawing into herself to the extent she can't sense Aerith is not Aerith's fault. Why not direct some of that misplaced ire at the entire living party for not comforting Tifa then. Aerith did not ignore Tifa, she came to stand by her side, but Tifa couldn't sense her because she was withdrawn. There is nothing malicious or ill meaning there.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Maiden, I think they're expressing irritation that Aerith didn't attempt to touch Tifa like she did Nanaki. A hug, a hand gripping her shoulder, etc.

 

[Hix]

I haven't read/watched Bleach so can't weigh in, but shipping in and of itself is fine - even if it's with characters in established pairings - as long as one is aware it's something personal and does not reflect the media that is being presented.

Generally speaking active "shipping" is at it's strongest when there's ambiguity, then as relationships become established it starts to die down. This is both an acknowledgement of reality and appreciation of, and respect for, the source material and those who have made it.

The situation we have with FF7 is unique in a way, because despite the answer being given some 27 years ago - and continually reinforced since - it's still a challenge even for a neutral observer to discuss the narrative as presented without being bombarded with nonsensical silliness like koibito tsunagi. The shipping should have ended along with disc 1 but has continued unabated, actively disregarding the will of the creators, and indeed, the reality.

Bleach had time to potentially establish various possible relationships before the canon was set. Final Fantasy VII came and went and left us with an answer in 50 hours of gameplay.

Now, you may say that the Remake trilogy being split up has surely not helped this, but the devs have doubled down on what they want the viewer to take away from the story. I saw someone earlier post here that they could imagine a scenario where Joe Gamer would think perhaps this is a multi-romance route game, but consider;

Using the menu, said player watches Tifa and Aerith's HA GS dates;

One date has Cloud sit next to a girl he almost kissed shortly before. She worries she got ahead of herself then and is perhaps doing so again. He moves to reassure her, "not a bit", before pulling her into a passionate, mutual kiss as fireworks explode in the background.

The other date has Cloud sit away from a girl who, shortly before, told him she still loves her boyfriend who went missing years earlier. She pats the seat next to her for him to come. He openly refuses to do so and not for the first or last time. She shuffles close to him. They talk about her boyfriend who she still loves. She rests her head on his shoulder "just for now" and her hand in his and the date ends.

There's just no ambiguity here. One is implicitly romantic and the other is implicitly platonic, painfully so even. This is also why Cleriths are so devastated over the unsurprising revelation that Aerith didn't sing a love ballad to Cloud, because there's never a moment for them like the kiss, never a moment that can't be seen as two people who like each other but don't like-like each other.

Continue to ship that, and Ichigo/Rukia too, but at least do the devs the courtesy of accepting the story they are trying to tell - even if you personally wish it was another way.

 

[Stiggie]

I haven't read/watched Bleach so can't weigh in, but shipping in and of itself is fine - even if it's with characters in established pairings - as long as one is aware it's something personal and does not reflect the media that is being presented.

Generally speaking active "shipping" is at it's strongest when there's ambiguity, then as relationships become established starts to die down. This is both an acknowledgement of reality and appreciation of and respect for the source material and those who have made it.

The situation we have with FF7 is unique in a way, because despite the answer being given some 27 years ago - and continually reinforced since - it's still a challenge even for a neutral observer to discuss the obvious narrative as presented without being bombarded with nonsensical, irrelevant claptrap like "koibito tsunagi". The shipping should have ended along with disc 1, but has continued unabated actively disregarding the wills of the creators, and indeed, the reality.

Bleach had time to potentially establish various possible relationships before the canon was set. Final Fantasy VII came and went and left us with an answer in 50 hours of gameplay.

Now, you may say that the Remake trilogy being split up has surely not helped this, but the devs have doubled down on what they want the viewer to take away from the story. I saw someone earlier post here that they could imagine a scenario where Joe Gamer would think perhaps this is a multi-route game, but consider;

Using the menu, the player watches Tifa and Aerith's HA GS dates.
One date has Cloud sit next to a girl he almost kissed shortly before. She worries she got ahead of herself then and is perhaps doing so again. He moves to reassure her, not a bit, before pulling her into a passionate, mutual kiss as fireworks explode in the background.
The other date has Cloud sit away from a girl who, shortly before, told him she still loves her boyfriend who went missing years earlier. She pats the seat next to her for him to come. He openly refuses to do so and not for the first or last time. She shuffles close to him. They talk about her boyfriend who she still loves. She rests her head on his shoulder "just for now" and her hand in his and the date ends.

There's just no ambiguity here. One is implicitly romantic and the other is implicitly platonic, painfully so even. This is also why Cleriths are so devestated over the unsurprising revelation that Aerith didn't sing an unrequited love ballad to Cloud, because there's never a moment for them like the kiss, never a moment that can't be seen as two people who like each other but don't like-like each other.

Continue to ship that, and Ichigo/Rukia too, but at least do the devs the courtesy of accepting the story they are trying to tell - even if you personally wish it was another way.

I'm fine with people shipping rukia and ichigo. The reason I don't argue with them is simple, I e never met an ichigo x rukia shipper who, after the manga was over, didn't accept that inoue was the Canon love interrest. They may not like it, but they're not pretending it isn't true. Same with me and my most sunken ships, even when they're arguably more valid that clerith is.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Maiden, I think they're expressing irritation that Aerith didn't attempt to touch Tufa like she did Nanaki. A hug, a hand gripping her shoulder, etc.

I stand by what I said, Aerith doesn't deserve the unnecessary flak for the ending.

 

[Eerie]

didn't accept that inoue was the Canon love interrest.

Dude we all left a long time ago lol, that shipping fanbase was HUGE like way bigger than anything FFVII - that's what big shounens do. Also Ichigo and Rukia have the same tropes as Cloud and Tifa. There I've said it.

 

[CldS7]

why would I talk about the party giving Tifa comfort when the issue im arguing is that the game doesnt do nearly enough in showing Aerith showing care for Tifa compared to the other way around.

the other party have nothing to do with their dynamic. The issue I have is its presented in a one sided manner in my opinion which is a massive detriment

 

[Maidenofwar]

I am not discoursing with you because you are ignoring the entire game let alone the ending and Nojima on their friendship.

You are being hyper critical of Aerith for no reason than bending down and being sad while looking at Tifa and Nanaki is not enough for you. Tifa had her head buried in her arms at the time.

 

[CldS7]

lmfao im not ignoring anything im critiquing the fact no female writer in the writing room severely hurt their dynamic and the dynamic itself was not written equally which is an issue with how the Devs wrote the game

didnt you put me on ignore the other day anyway lol??

im being hyper critical of their so called friendship when the only time Aerith reassures Tifa is literally at the start of the game. The whole game is Tifa doing things and caring about Aerith and we never see Aerith do anything back. I'm sure we will see some stuff in Part 3 from Aeriths side but I cannot buy their friendship at all, when the conversations they have are so coded by old 50 year old men lol

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I stand by what I said, Aerith doesn't deserve the unnecessary flak for the ending.

Please bear in mind that whatever anyone else might say, I at least am not getting on Aerith's case for this. And I get how frustrating it can be to see people discussing how annoying they find a character you enjoy so much. I'm guessing that's why the post I initially responded to read slightly aggro? I dunno, I still struggle to read people/the room in text from sometimes so I could be seeing defensive aggro that's for reals not there If so say the word, I'd rather understand your real position than assume wrongly.

What I will say for myself on this matter is that I wish the writers had chosen for Aerith to reach out to her devastated best friend. It doesn't matter to me if Tifa can sense her or not, as close as they've become it seems like Aerith should reach for her in some way, a visual storytelling shorthand for "I want to comfort you" is something I want to see here even if the answer is a sad "but I can't" in the end. The ghost who sadly reaches out for a loved one only to find they can't feel it is an old damn trope for a reason. If they didn't want people griping about this, they could have just skipped her patting Nanaki and drawing attention to it, but she did, we noticed, and now want to know why just Nanaki gets the effort. If there's any in character reason, I'd like to hear it, otherwise I stick with "what the hell, writers?"

As for the rest of the party, let's not be unkind to them either. Cloud's currently sliding further from reality in general, and everyone is in some state of grief and shock. Hopefully part 3 shows them shaking it off enough to support each other properly, because they all need it right now. Everyone lost big when they lost Aerith. Everyone.

 

[Yoru]

Tifa withdrawing into herself to the extent she can't sense Aerith is not Aerith's fault. Why not direct some of that misplaced ire at the entire living party for not comforting Tifa then. Aerith did not ignore Tifa, she came to stand by her side, but Tifa couldn't sense her because she was withdrawn. There is nothing malicious or ill meaning there.

You can't blame Tifa for that lol. How is she supposed to know her ghost friend is really a thing ?

I'm not blaming Aerith either. Just found this remark a bit weird.

From what we know, there is no real rule in this world. Some sense things (Marlene), some see things (Cloud in AC ending). Can you really close yourself from it ? idk. Imo it is easier for Aerith to try to show some sort of sign of affection even if Tifa chose to not receive it.

She decided to use Nanaki to show them she was there. Totally fine. You can't blame some of us to want more of Aerti.
And again, i'm not attacking Aerith. I just wanted more. That's all.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Yoru: AC/C shows us that in better circumstances Tifa can absolutely sense Aerith, so I can see a bit of where that's coming from. But yeah, that's in better circumstances. Which these circumstances are definitely not.

This is a big part of why Maiden is coming off as aggressively defensive to me. Even if I can somewhat agree that Tifa has "withdrawn into herself to the extent that she can't sense Aerith," I'd contend that a better phrasing there would be "Tifa is so overcome with grief that she can barely sense flesh and blood people nearby right now," and even then... Aerith reaching for her wouldn't be indicative of what Tifa can or can't sense. Just as I said before, it'd indicate Aerith wanting to connect with her friend. That's what I feel is missing from that scene.

 

[Yoru]

@Yoru: AC/C shows us that in better circumstances Tifa can absolutely sense Aerith, so I can see a bit of where that's coming from. But yeah, that's in better circumstances. Which these circumstances are definitely not.

This is a big part of why Maiden is coming off as aggressively defensive to me. Even if I can somewhat agree that Tifa has "withdrawn into herself to the extent that she can't sense Aerith," I'd contend that a better phrasing there would be "Tifa is so overcome with grief that she can barely sense flesh and blood people nearby right now," and even then... Aerith reaching for her wouldn't be indicative if what Tifa can or can't sense. Just as I said before, it'd indicate Aerith wanting to connect with her friend. That's what I feel is missing from that scene.

The other were too harsh, that's why I was defending Aerith some posts ago.

But yeah, the sadness here is not that Tifa can't sense her anyway. It's just that Aerith didn't even try. Not a big deal, she came near them. But yeah I just wanted more, purely selfish wish.

But I think it's just an artistic choice and we're reading to deep into it. The Nanaki touch was maybe too much even. They should have just let her be there in the background looking at them