SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

cgnVirtue

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Virtue
I do think Tifas gonna bring up some of these conversations later, be it when helping Cloud piece himself together or otherwise. Or hell maybe even just seeing some kinda flashback to them from Tifas POV.
This is one of those instances where having knowledge of the original game’s events helps a lot.

While playing through Rebirth I remember getting a bit frustrated because I was so curious about what Tifa and Aerith were talking about. Like on the Gold Saucer date with Tifa, it cuts off right when Aerith is like “what??” in the flashback. It’s even worse in the Forgotten Capital when Cloud’s slipping in and out of consciousness because they’re having full blown party conversations and I didn’t get to know any of it. I wasn’t completely aware of the events after disc 1 until after I finished Rebirth because I was so desperate for answers.

It eased my mind a considerable amount knowing that we’re probably gonna be seeing from Tifa’s perspective for part 3, and that that’s an important part of the story.

Now I’m frustrated that I have to wait for part 3 lmao.

Edit: more specific wording
 

liuliuliu

Pro Adventurer
Oh she died, and she will not come back alive.

Maybe my memory is messed up but I think I read in one interview they specifically said OG is considered each character’s destiny, re- just shows how they fight their way to reach the ending
 
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thetriplerhyme

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thetriplerhyme
Yes I just saw that, you can check it here: I haven't decided yet but it is possible that it's because it's all in Cloud's head, we'll see what comes out. I think it's very clear that they knew where they were going with the 2nd and 3rd game, seeing some of the ending scenes... it's very interesting.

- ohh i never gave attention to the credits though this is interesting I still dont believe in Jenova theory but if somehow this is true... its gonna sunk that ship even more we will see another bunch of meltdowns
 

Ryushikaze

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Tim, Ryu
Well, at least I’m as tall as Cloud.

Zack and Sephiroth definitely seems like a discrepancy. Also 6’2 to Aerith’s 5’3. Tall-short couple.
That's a smaller gap than my wife and I.

I just wanted to add to the Bleach topic, it should be mentioned, and I could be misremembering this so don’t take my word 100%, the anime kinda shafted Orihime a bit since the someone involved with the anime was a pretty big Ichiruki fan. The manga does better job at showing Orihime as main the love interest I believe and developing her character in general. I also think the fact that she was a healer instead of direct combatant lead to people dog piling on her calling her useless ignoring the times she provided emotional comfort to Ichigo, tho to be fair Rukia did to. Personally I really liked her because she was sweet and endearing and I just don’t think heroines always gotta be badasses. It should also be mention Rukia is like 100years older than Ichigo tho in anime thats hardly ever a problem. Anyways I just wanted to mention these things as I thought they’d be important to the comparison.
Yes, the anime did Orihime dirty and cut a lot of her moments.

Also, people say IchiRuk went gracefully, but there were some major death throes for a good while afterwards.
Not, you know, 27 year long death throes, but they were there.
 

Yoru

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- ohh i never gave attention to the credits though this is interesting I still dont believe in Jenova theory but if somehow this is true... its gonna sunk that ship even more we will see another bunch of meltdowns
I don't think it has anything to do with Jenova.

It just shows Cloud POV can't be trusted, it's the game telling you "I can't show you because that's not what happened"

imo it's just a nice meta message to tease us and tell us we will see what really happened later (=she's not here, we burried her, she's gone)
 

Stiggie

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Stiggie
I agree with this. I've never hated a character just because they're a love interest but them being the love interest™ isn't an excuse not to actually develop the relationship. I'm probably going to word this badly but a character's whole raison d'être being about loving the main character isn't quite the same as being the love interest™, particularly if said relationship isn't actually developed or is developed badly. It's just as common to see love rivals in fiction whose raison d'être is to love the main character but they still don't get the girl/boy. So holding largely one-sided feelings as a metric whether someone is a love interest or not is kind of silly.
Thing is, when people dislike a character they'll pretend their raison d'etre is the MC, for example, tifa has had this accusation levied against her for as long as she exists.

(As did inoue and hinata)
 
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Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Thing is, when people dislike a character they'll pretend their raison d'etre is the MC, for example, tifa has had this accusation levied against her for as long as she exists.

(As did inoue and hinata)
That's why it's hilarious and ironic when poeple wants to erase all of Aerith narrative depth to just make her raison d'être about Cloud Strife...

... exactly why they trashed talk Tifa all this time lmao
 

thetriplerhyme

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thetriplerhyme
I don't think it has anything to do with Jenova.
apologies I didnt notice i missed out one word there If this is true we're going to see a lot of meltdown

It just shows Cloud POV can't be trusted, it's the game telling you "I can't show you because that's not what happened"
- yeah this more believable for me just like how Cloud erases Zack's memory he is doing 'almost' the same with Aerith. But its not like he can forget bout her but he thinks she's still alive same with Zack.

He is denying their death and in his mind his two friends did not die they will fight with him.

Soldier Cloud is already his ideal strong person and his sense of protection to his friends and comrades is very strong ( of course Aerith is important too) unlike his status with Zack's he is completelty helpless. So having to experience same death as helpless again even with an ideal strong person is very traumatic to Cloud.

- actually it sink in only now because although I know Aerith important in OG i never really understood 100% why does he have to grieve so much for her back then. Zack I know cuz he's done so much for Cloud but Aerith? or probably my biases sorry don't hate me.


With Zack's death ( although he's already been through so much even before this ) - he feels soo weak and he can't do anything to help him hence his pysche fractured and with Jenova inside him ( of course seeing Tifa again ) created this persona of his ideal person

With Aerith's death ( he's already the ideal strong person he imagine [like a soldier] ) yet even with this persona he is still helpless and he can't do anything with her death.


- It was not soo much of a surprise if he will deny their deaths..
 
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cgnVirtue

Lv. 25 Adventurer
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Virtue
That's why it's hilarious and ironic when poeple wants to erase all of Aerith narrative depth to just make her raison d'être about Cloud Strife...

... exactly why they trashed talk Tifa all this time lmao
This is crazy to me because Aerith is such a compelling character without Cloud.

It’s probably different in OG FFVII, but at least in the ReTrilogy it seems like she’s aware that she’s destined to die. What I like about this is that, even knowing her fate, she’s so full of life. She still comes up with fun ideas for “dates”, she plays along with Yuffie doing signals for the plane, she has Tifa teach her how to hitchhike, etc. Aerith just wants to experience the little things that life has to offer. She doesn’t let the fact that she knows that she’s going to die spiral into doing nothing.

That doesn’t even go into her relationship with Zack which is so sad. They date for years (I think) and she’s so desperate to feel that happiness again that she tries to relive those moments with Zack through Cloud but comes up short. It’s the one thing she can’t do before she dies, but she tries so damn hard to make do with what she has. Which just speaks to my reading of her character. She wants to enjoy life knowing that she’s destined to die, when knowing that might put another person into a paralyzing despair. Aerith is so full of hope when she has every reason not to be. And I think that’s what makes her such a good character.

So reducing her character to being all about Cloud destroys so much of her depth. A character like her is so important because she shows us how precious the moments we take for granted are. She appreciates the mundane even when the world is ending.

Anyways all of that relies on the fact that she actually knows that she’s going to die in the Remake/Rebirth. If she doesn’t, well, then consider my interpretation completely off lol.

Edit: added a word.
 

CldS7

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Luffy76
apologies I didnt notice i missed out one word there If this is true we're going to see a lot of meltdown


- yeah this more believable for me just like how Cloud erases Zack's memory he is doing 'almost' the same with Aerith. But its not like he can forget bout her but he thinks she's still alive same with Zack.

He is denying their death and in his mind his two friends did not die they will fight with him.

Soldier Cloud is already his ideal strong person and his sense of protection to his friends and comrades is very strong ( of course Aerith is important too) unlike his status with Zack's he is completelty helpless. So having to experience same death as helpless again even with an ideal strong person is very traumatic to Cloud.

- actually it sink in only now because although I know Aerith important in OG i never really understood 100% why does he have to grieve so much for her back then. Zack I know cuz he's done so much for Cloud but Aerith? or probably my biases sorry don't hate me.


With Zack's death ( although he's already been through so much even before this ) - he feels soo weak and he can't do anything to help him hence his pysche fractured and with Jenova inside him ( of course seeing Tifa again ) created this persona of his ideal person

With Aerith's death ( he's already the ideal strong person he imagine [like a soldier] ) yet even with this persona he is still helpless and he can't do anything with her death.


- It was not soo much of a surprise if he will deny their deaths..

yes all this

I wonder if Seph is going to show him Aerith's death and Zack at Nibleheim will make that one moment where Tifa's faith is doubted in him even more poignant

The idea of Cloud even with his Soldier persona still not being able to save Aerith is so fucking good. It truely show that he needs to confront his insecurities and realise he was always a hero and its always been his actions rather then him being special that is what will enable him to beat Seph

I cannot wait for the lifestream sequence. Just hearing the real Cloud lay it all out on Tifa and thinking he's failed her but Tifa comforting him saying the real him is all she's ever wanted >>>>>>

such a beautiful fucking scene
 

Sacky

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SackyBoy
All those people that Say FF7 has no romance are going to be shocked when part 3 comes out. Watch the tune change to oh so they decided Cloti is canon, Always was. It's also clear to me now these people never finished the OG game or were kids when they did and didn't understand it and have not played it recently.
 

Ryeleigh

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Rye
Thing is, when people dislike a character they'll pretend their raison d'etre is the MC, for example, tifa has had this accusation levied against her for as long as she exists.

(As did inoue and hinata)
You know, I'm not going to turn this into an FF7, Naruto and Bleach LTD thread so let's just agree to disagree, lol.
 

thetriplerhyme

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thetriplerhyme
You know, I'm not going to turn this into an FF7, Naruto and Bleach LTD thread so let's just agree to disagree, lol.

not everyone is a fan hahaha

I love FF7 but not all final fantasy series I got bored with X though it was a good game overall but it wears me out i think 8 is my last game I trully enjoy the rest is just so-so..

I also like Naruto but I'm not so much fan as well with super long animes ( but I love naruto - i have the rerun once anime is done ) Boruto is different story though dropped it when Kurama dies and even more with God's involvement ( Idk what the hell is Kishimoto's thinking)

THe magic of Naruto for me is how grounded their abilities are if you input God's and non-human being in a "ninja" anime kinda loses it for me.. sorry

- never watch Bleach ( not a single episode)
 

CldS7

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Luffy76
yes all this

I wonder if Seph is going to show him Aerith's death and Zack at Nibleheim will make that one moment where Tifa's faith is doubted in him even more poignant

The idea of Cloud even with his Soldier persona still not being able to save Aerith is so fucking good. It truely show that he needs to confront his insecurities and realise he was always a hero and its always been his actions rather then him being special that is what will enable him to beat Seph

I cannot wait for the lifestream sequence. Just hearing the real Cloud lay it all out on Tifa and thinking he's failed her but Tifa comforting him saying the real him is all she's ever wanted >>>>>>

such a beautiful fucking scene

im definitely buying into this more and more
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yes, the anime did Orihime dirty and cut a lot of her moments.
The anime was subpar compared to the manga for most of it. And it did add IchiOri that didn't exist - IchiRuki got shafted tho, a lot of times too.
But you know it's bad when Ichigo and Ishida's VA mocked her.

Also, people say IchiRuk went gracefully, but there were some major death throes for a good while afterwards.
Yikes, I wasn't on Twitter for the fandom but this is such a yikes don't do that kids moment for me. I just was out the day the chapter was out lol.
 

CldS7

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Luffy76
No I think it's more that both have their own memories that resonate with each other I guess? It's soulmate stuff, not joking /sorry for the double post

no dont worry at all haha

yeh im trying to understand it. Maybe Cloud subconsciously 'shares his soul and mind with her' meaning both of their memories together are both within the lifestream... because the memories Tifa sees in Gangaga were from Clouds perspective in parts. So their is some soul joint connection going on

the reunion flower seemingly looks like its going to play a big deal as well

I cannot wait for the lifestream....
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I think the reunion flower in Cloud's memories of Nibelheim in Kalm is just a hint like many other hints. Not that much of a big deal but perhaps showing who he associates with it and its meaning?
 

CldS7

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Luffy76
I think the reunion flower in Cloud's memories of Nibelheim in Kalm is just a hint like many other hints. Not that much of a big deal but perhaps showing who he associates with it and its meaning?

I thought so too but if they're linking it to the scene of him giving it to her in 7th heaven and thats why its there in the lifestream...

its like a subconscious action of the real cloud in his memories in Kalm?
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
I thought so too but if they're linking it to the scene of him giving it to her in 7th heaven and thats why its there in the lifestream...

its like a subconscious action of the real cloud in his memories in Kalm?
"Follow the yellow flowers"

I'm pretty sure Aerith is 4D chess all of Remake/Rebirth/R3rdPart from the Lifestream and it's just a forshadowing of her helping hand.

And the flower means "Reunion" in the flower language, so again, just a forshadowing. The Reunion isn't only Sephiroth calling all the Jenova parts/cell, it's Cloud reconstructing himself with the help of Tifa. The reunion of two soul.
 

thetriplerhyme

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thetriplerhyme
It truely show that he needs to confront his insecurities and realise he was always a hero and its always been his actions rather then him being special that is what will enable him to beat Seph

Agreed he's too hard on himself and this what I hate about C/A saying Tifa lied she could have told him bout the truth from the start could have saved Aerith or Zack can just tell him the truth makes LS scene less poignant.

LMAO
Its not about telling Cloud the truth ~
Its about Cloud getting over his insecurities and trauma

You cannot forced it! Someone need to understand his pain, his heart and his inner desires. The one who shares the same pain even back on that bridge, the lost of their town and same kind trauma he have.

Do they think he will be able to get over his trauma if a 3rd party POV pointed it out to him " this is what trully happened.. or its not your fault you both fell on that bridge.
 

CldS7

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Luffy76
Agreed he's too hard on himself and this what I hate about C/A saying Tifa lied she could have told him bout the truth from the start could have saved Aerith or Zack can just tell him the truth makes LS scene less poignant.

I fucking hate that as well as them saying Tifa is projecting a false heroic persona onto Cloud. No dipshits you've completely missed the whole point.
 

CldS7

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Luffy76
LMAO
Its not about telling Cloud the truth ~
Its about Cloud getting over his insecurities and trauma

You cannot forced it! Someone need to understand his pain, his heart and his inner desires. The one who shares the same pain even back on that bridge, the lost of their town and same kind trauma he have.
this is literally the point of FF7 lmfao how do they not understand this

Cloud was able to face the truth and his insecurities whilst Sephiroth was not able to

thats the point lol
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
Gotta say, reading some takes on both Aerith and Tifa is a really unpleasant reminder that being a fictional woman sounds almost as exhausting as being a real woman, lol. It irks me because yes, the game is written by (old) men primarily for men, that was always the case and it should be pointed out, but at the end of the day there are still three main characters to this story – you remove just one of them and the plot breaks. And while Cloud is the main POV character, he’s also the most passive actor of the three until very late game, and his entire character arc struggles to justify its existence even as a concept if you remove Tifa from the equation… Yet it’s Tifa and Aerith that have to jump through so many hoops just to be considered little more than love interests, each and every action they take is constantly scrutinized and distorted beyond recognition, and they get absolutely no passes for not being able to deal with every traumatizing or difficult situation they find themselves in like a walking psychology textbook – but when Cloud does it oh it’s so fascinating! I also understand that people are annoyed and frustrated with the LTD, especially now that they’re killing it with flamethrowers and somehow it still moves, but you can’t complain that the LTD makes everything worse and dumber, then proceed to reduce every layered interaction between Cloud/Tifa/Aerith to “just the romance” and a new bullet point for the LTD.

That said, I thought there were still some really interesting points being raised in this thread about Aerith — some of which made me think harder about what certain choices could imply. I don’t necessarily think that the devs earned the benefit of the doubt with this game and many things could have been handled better, but my impression is that some of the frustrations I've seen raised at her are due to the fact that she suffers from what I would call the "OG Tifa problem”: because she seems to be tied to the “new” mystery, some key moments that would help contextualize certain scenes and choices more clearly are purposefully missing or are presented in a misleading way, to be resolved (one would hope) in the final game. Ironically, Tifa really shone bright in this game at least partly, I feel, because there's less of a necessity to save her for the surprise factor, as the game is written on the assumption that at least part of the audience already knows about it. Of course, the original plot twist involving Tifa was written much more... elegantly and didn’t require you to wait a decade and more than a hundred hours of playtime to get to the damn point, but.

For example, the games are openly toying with the idea that Zack is “alive”, so you view scenes with certain assumptions – but if he actually just died like he always did, and CC is canon to this continuity, that means that Aerith knows it on some level and that, more than simply reliving her lost romance in a new way with Cloud, with all the complexities that entails, she finds herself grieving Zack through Cloud’s warped facsimile. And if at any point she tried to tell herself that he just ghosted her to go live a happy life and then suddenly died five years later… by talking with Tifa as the game progresses she can now correctly assume that something really bad happened to him in Nibelheim that prevented him from getting back to her. What’s more, the one person that might be able to give her answers and closure – someone she’s grown genuinely attached to and that helped change her life in ways she might have never thought possible – is in no state to do so. Like Tifa would say, “it’s a little more complicated” than who does Aerith like the most and to what degree. This is of course just a possible interpretation and may not turn out to be correct, but I think it goes to show how things may not be as clearcut as they seem and we’re not getting the full picture.

Regarding her “dream date” with Cloud, I personally found this specific scene intriguing and bittersweet, but it's fair that people question the fact that what is (maybe?) one of her last few impactful scenes seemingly revolves entirely around Cloud, or even Zack, or just romance in general. I feel like that's a valid concern, and so is the fear that tying her death to Cloud’s mental state might diminish it to nothing more than fridging (which I’d really, really hate). Unfortunately, I don’t think we can fully address these points without the bigger context of Part 3, though I will say that I doubt this was really the last that we'll see of Aerith (for better or worse).

For what it’s worth, not only there are actual plot reasons as to why Aerith needed to get Cloud there somehow (the whole white materia thing that I honestly don’t give two shits about), but I feel like this is another one of those instances where some context is probably missing, or is apparently altered or misplaced. If you cut down the trippy bullshit and the “dreams” that the game bombards us with, Aerith's last real life interactions with Cloud range between creepy and outright violent. In the OG, we know that he brutally attacks her at the Temple, then almost kills her at the altar, and then she dies right in front of him. In Rebirth, what actually happens after they both fall at the Temple seems weird and muddled, to the point where I'm not entirely sure what went on (what if he tried to attack her still, but we just haven’t seen it yet?)… but I think it's safe to say that he's still quite horrible to her. It’s not beyond the realm of possibilities that she would want to give herself (and hopefully him, in time) one last good memory in which he's not being a deranged madman at her, while trying to get some shred of closure for once in her miserable existence.

About her death and the role it may play in Cloud’s mental collapse and general arc, I… think that especially Rebirth shows that they want to debunk a lot of the bad readings and misconceptions on the source material that have piled on over the years. If you’ve been in this fandom for as long as I have, you should be very familiar with all the discourse surrounding Tifa and her silence regarding Cloud’s recollection of the Nibelheim incident, and Rebirth went out of its way to show why that was kind of missing the point of the situation. And it’s interesting that now this ending seems to build up another common misconception: this idea that it was Aerith’s death that caused Cloud’s mind to break. Now, it’s very possible that they’ll double down on it and make it aaall about him, I wouldn’t be shocked if they did, but… would you say it’s really needed? Cloud seems so far gone already, way more than in the OG, and Sephiroth didn’t need it the first time around anyway. I mean, if I were him and I knew shit that I shouldn’t, maybe I’d try to use her death to break… someone else… you know, the real threat to my plan that I’ve been targeting for an entire game.

I also think that part of the issue is that Aerith’s and (to a much lesser extent) Zack’s deaths have become bigger than the characters themselves. And because these are games that are quite aware of the fact that they’re interactive experiences, the interactive element – our input and reaction to it – is part of the story. Actually, this whole project feels more and more like a post-mortem analysis of both the original and people’s experience with it. With that in mind, Sephiroth murdering her is not just one of Cloud’s perceived personal failures, but something that belongs to our own collective memory: we are the ones who couldn’t save her, because she was never ours to be saved, and we’re the ones that are being called to come to terms with it once again 30 years after the fact, through Cloud. I will also add that her death being reduced to the failure to save her could be considered a bad reading of the material, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Remake and Rebirth talk about it so openly precisely to debunk this particular take in the last installment.

Hopefully, once Aerith’s role in that particular conversation is played, Aerith-the-character will be disentangled from Cloud and mourned in-game for who she was, for what she meant to each character either directly or indirectly, and her death will be unquestionably presented as a waste rather than a noble sacrifice for the greater good (another wildly common misconception, at least to me). As to why they immediately showed Aerith being “fine” and not really gone in the last scene – I definitely think the OG was much more poignant in its simplicity, and braver in the way it firmly denied any real closure with death, like… they’re not even in the same league, but… I think it’s possible that they’re trying to do it almost in reverse: you get the consolation first (see? She’s not fully gone, and she’s more or less at peace! But you knew that already because we’ve been here before), to only later realize that it doesn’t really change things in all the ways that matter. Actually, Aerith says it best right after the Trials: “knowing the people that we love aren’t really gone […] doesn’t make it any easier to let them go”. Will it even work, will they make it feel meaningful at all? I don’t know – personally, I felt nothing when I played this ending. I can only hope they stick the landing better than they did with these first two games, but I do think there is a point that they’re trying to make.

And speaking of reverse, this kinda brings me to my last point (we finally made it!). Another interesting question that was raised was… what is even Aerith’s arc in this entire trilogy? I’ve been wondering about that for a while, because Remake already changed things quite a bit and it’s not linear at all.

So her original arc went pretty much like this: just a girl, uncomfortable with her identity, throughout the game she grows to accept it and comes into her own, but the more she embraces her heritage, the more isolated she becomes – and that’s how she dies, fundamentally alone, knowing things she never gets to tell the party, engulfed in this unbearable loneliness that she can’t share with anyone and that she seems to have accepted as an inescapable part of her life. In Remake, she almost felt like was at the end of her original arc: someone who’s keenly aware of her identity and her role, knowing things she’s not telling, doing “Cetra things” that we don’t quite understand, and probably being the loneliest she’s ever been. In Rebirth, the original arc is mirrored a bit more, though I think now there was an attempt to stress that her Cetra heritage is something that she really doesn’t want, has absolutely no idea how to use, and doesn’t exactly embrace – more like “resigns” herself to, all to save the people she loves. If they really want to give people full closure this time, then maybe one way to end her arc, after everything is said and done, could be to transition from “super Cetra goddess” to someone who’s finally free to be just herself, finding her personal promised land – where she can meet everyone she’s ever loved again. I guess we’ll see.
 
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