SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

Ahhh gotcha, hopefully they do a good job at clearing this up the next game, now what is left to do is survive long enough for the next game. Or maybe the ultimania is help clears things up more, hell maybe even Nojima (I am not confusing him up am I?) might say something else if people don’t leave his ass alone.

Seeing some of his tweet comments, I feel like… he may get irritated lol

 

[Stiggie]

People don't hate girls being written as love interests, people hate badly written relationships. You can't just add character A to your story, have them love character B, and expect that to be enough to move the plot forward. You have to mutually develop it and convince your fandom why they should support your intended pairing. If done right, I can guarantee many people will support it, personal preferences aside, ofc. I'm not even speaking about Bleach specifically here, but in general.

Plus, there are so many variables. A character whose central focus is their feelings for another character can have as their main resolution in the end to finding their own path by moving on from their past feelings, just like a character who is already their own person or has their own importance to the main plot can also be a love interest. It all depends on how the story is told in the end.

And this is where FFVII differs, imo. I would even go further and say that this is probably why CA was more popular when OG first came out, but CT gradually gained ground and became much more popular as the time passed. It might have been difficult for a good portion of the ppl who played OG to see CT as the ending pairing when CA was so strongly pushed in disk 1. However, the creators put a lot of effort into explain their initial vision and further developing them in all the subsequent material to make sure we, the fandom, understand why Cloud and Tifa should be together, and it all paid out in the end for them.

It's just a pattern I've noticed when a character has the mc very central in their story they get disliked for it. Sure it will be couched in ad-hoc rationalizations about how the dislike is actually because of something completely justified, but the reaction can be predicted long before any of that is taken into account.

Basically people know that hating a character because their story is strongly tied to the main character isn't justifiable, but unconsciously that is the impetus for the dislike. They see a character, think all they are is some wet rag that pines over the protagonist, and that lens then colors all their perceptions of what comes after. So for certain characters people will be looking for reasons to criticize them, while for others they will be looking for reasons to dismiss them.

Another good example is Hinata, whose defining trait at the start of the show can be understandably interpreted as just being in love with Naruto. This then leads to certain flawed views about her character, they will say "Her motivations are shallow, the only reason she's trying to get stronger is because she's in love with Naruto", when in reality the reason she's in love with naruto is because he inspired her to get stronger. They will say their dislike for her is because of shallow characterization, but in reality the reason they think these characters are shallow is because they dislike her.

And yeah, there are other forces at play of course that can counter-act this, especially over time, but Tifa is exactly the same. Her characterization was never more shallow in the OG than it was in remake, but there was more room for interpretation, and because people started off not liking her, partially because Aerith exists, and because of the fact that Tifa in contrast can be easily misinterpreted to "just revolve around Cloud", people jumped at the chance to use THE WORST interpretation of her character to justify their a-priori hatred of the character.

There are exceptions of course but I am convinced this psycho analysis is essentially correct for a large part of the dislike of Tifa, if not the majority. Only reason it's changed now is because there isn't enough wriggle room anymore to justify said interpretation.

 

[CldS7]

She never see the real him. It's part of her tragedy, that she can never meet him while alive.

There is a difference between "searching for the real him" and "finding him".

sorry I meant she finally sees him as Cloud on his own (even though we know its not the real Cloud)

Im still unsure of the meaning of the fake date being a replica of Zacks and the implication behind it after she begins to see Cloud as his own person. Hope the Ultimata sheds some light on it

 

[Stiggie]

Ok, I'm confused why I'm being singled out here. I agreed with someone that a female perspective on the writing team could possibly be to the betterment of the writing. I didn't get reductive on anything that I can see or insist things were bad, only agreed that in my view they could be better. I know you quoted me, but it kinda feels like you should be talking to Clds7, as that was the person declaring that without women writers they can't write this right.

I quoted someone at random, definitely didn't mean to single anyone out. I just started casually reading from the bottom and at some point pressed "quote", it was aimed at the overall conversation.

 

[alohana]

I don’t believe there’s been a single FF game where you could choose your own adventure. Otherwise, I would have gone for Quistis instead of Rinoa.

Quistis deserved to talked to a wall

The real second choice is Selphie

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Stiggie: Thank you, I appreciate you clearing that up. I have on occasion actually given an impression utterly counter to what I meant, usually coinciding with awful insomnia (guess who didn't sleep worth a damn last night!) so I legit felt the need to check, ya know? I friggin' hate when I accidentally misrepresent myself

 

[GamerSkull]

Quistis deserved to talked to a wall

The real second choice is Selphie

I don’t think I could stand hearing her sing about trains all day though.

In all seriousness, Selphie is cool too. But leave Quistis alone.

 

[Yumelinh]

It's just a pattern I've noticed when a character has the mc very central in their story they get disliked for it. Sure it will be couched in ad-hoc rationalizations about how the dislike is actually because of something completely justified, but the reaction can be predicted long before any of that is taken into account.

Basically people know that hating a character because their story is strongly tied to the main character isn't justifiable, but unconsciously that is the impetus for the dislike. They see a character, think all they are is some wet rag that pines over the protagonist, and that lens then colors all their perceptions of what comes after. So for certain characters people will be looking for reasons to criticize them, while for others they will be looking for reasons to dismiss them.

Another good example is Hinata, whose defining trait at the start of the show can be understandably interpreted as just being in love with Naruto. This then leads to certain flawed views about her character, they will say "Her motivations are shallow, the only reason she's trying to get stronger is because she's in love with Naruto", when in reality the reason she's in love with naruto is because he inspired her to get stronger. They will say their dislike for her is because of shallow characterization, but in reality the reason they think these characters are shallow is because they dislike her.

And yeah, there are other forces at play of course that can counter-act this, especially over time, but Tifa is exactly the same. Her characterization was never more shallow in the OG than it was in remake, but there was more room for interpretation, and because people started off not liking her, partially because Aerith exists, and because of the fact that Tifa in contrast can be easily misinterpreted to "just revolve around Cloud", people jumped at the chance to use THE WORST interpretation of her character to justify their a-priori hatred of the character.

There are exceptions of course but I am convinced this psycho analysis is essentially correct for a large part of the dislike of Tifa, if not the majority. Only reason it's changed now is because there isn't enough wriggle room anymore to justify said interpretation.

I believe we can agree to disagree, then. I understand where you're coming from, and there are certainly many stories where this might actually be the case. But my answer remains the same as before: People don't hate girls being written as love interests, people hate badly written relationships. You may look at a relationship and believe what the creators showed you is enough to justify why they should be together, while for a good portion of people, what was presented might not even scratch the surface. Sure, personal preference plays a big role in this aspect, but if done right, a creator should be able to guide their readers/players into the direction they want if they put effort into it. That's what FFVII was able to do in the end.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Tifa was even that much hated as a character, not even when OG came out. People might have preferred Aerith, but I feel that for a good portion of the players it was never because they hated Tifa or the fact that her character was so intertwined with Cloud. Sure, she has her fair share of haters for the reasons you mentioned above, but I'd say they're still a great minority in the fandom.

 

[Ryeleigh]

People don't hate girls being written as love interests, people hate badly written relationships.

I agree with this. I've never hated a character just because they're a love interest but them being the love interest™ isn't an excuse not to actually develop the relationship. I'm probably going to word this badly but a character's whole raison d'être being about loving the main character isn't quite the same as being the love interest™, particularly if said relationship isn't actually developed or is developed badly. It's just as common to see love rivals in fiction whose raison d'être is to love the main character but they still don't get the girl/boy. So holding largely one-sided feelings as a metric whether someone is a love interest or not is kind of silly.

 

[Stiggie]

@Stiggie: Thank you, I appreciate you clearing that up. I have on occasion actually given an impression utterly counter to what I meant, usually coinciding with awful insomnia (guess who didn't sleep worth a damn last night!) so I legit felt the need to check, ya know? I friggin' hate when I accidentally misrepresent myself

That's OK, I myself seem to come across as a lot more aggressive or confrontational than I usually intend to so I know how it feels.

 

[alohana]

As far as Aerith comforting Tifa at the end goes, I think Aerith couldn't do that as it might mess up her act in front of Cloud. So I think it's fine.

sorry I meant she finally sees him as Cloud on his own (even though we know its not the real Cloud)

Im still unsure of the meaning of the fake date being a replica of Zacks and the implication behind it after she begins to see Cloud as his own person. Hope the Ultimata sheds some light on it

My theory is that Rebirth Aerith figured out her feelings on Cloud during the gondola date, and Dream Date Aerith needed to also double check her feelings as she would have not had the chance to in the OG.

I don’t think I could stand hearing her sing about trains all day though.

In all seriousness, Selphie is cool too. But leave Quistis alone.

Lol he actually gets used to it. All negative interactions with Selphie are player choice. Although I am a Rinoa girlie, I noticed that in my last playthrough.

Quistis definitely needed a woman in the writing room though.

 

[GamerSkull]

As far as Aerith comforting Tifa at the end goes, I think Aerith couldn't do that as it might mess up her act in front of Cloud. So I think it's fine.



My theory is that Rebirth Aerith figured out her feelings on Cloud during the gondola date, and Dream Date Aerith needed to also double check her feelings as she would have not had the chance to in the OG.


Lol he actually gets used to it. All negative interactions with Selphie are player choice. Although I am a Rinoa girlie, I noticed that in my last playthrough.

Quistis definitely needed a woman in the writing room though.

It’s interesting because I don’t like Rinoa or Squall much.



Gonna be honest though, Edea is best girl.



And to be doubly honest, I haven’t played FF8 in a good bit so perhaps I need to go through it again to see if I feel any differently about things.

 

[alohana]

Gonna be honest though, Edea is best girl.

I can't argue with you there lol

 

[Hellenic]

The game doesn’t have enough sections of Tifa and Aerith on their own in a party without Cloud tbh

They technically do have a lot of moments together, but the issue there is that we are mostly watching from Clouds POV and the devs are purposefully not letting us players see what the 2 are talking about, besides a few little teases and implications. But yeah i wouldn't have minded getting more actual playable sections with the 2 together either.

 

[GamerSkull]

They technically do have a lot of moments together, but the issue there is that we are mostly watching from Clouds POV and the devs are purposefully not letting us players see what the 2 are talking about, besides a few little teases and implications. But yeah i wouldn't have minded getting more actual playable sections with the 2 together either.

I hope we get to see their full conversations about Zack in the future.

 

[Hellenic]

I hope we get to see their full conversations about Zack in the future.

I do think Tifas gonna bring up some of these conversations later, be it when helping Cloud piece himself together or otherwise. Or hell maybe even just seeing some kinda flashback to them from Tifas POV.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I'm just not sure the ending is even real anymore in light of recent revelations, so belabouring the point seemed a bit futile. It's all good GLD, I'm chill

 

[GamerSkull]

I'm just not sure the ending is even real anymore in light of recent revelations, so belabouring the point seemed a bit futile. It's all good GLD, I'm chill

Not real as in Aerith never died? Or the final gauntlet of bosses?

 

[Yoru]

Not real as in Aerith never died? Or the final gauntlet of bosses?

Nope, if we watch the credits her death is depicted.

What is not is "her burial" and Cloud watching at the empty/black materia while the others prepare the Tiny Bronco.

tl;dr : The credits black out all of Cloud POVs after beating the final boss.

So yeah the game is 100% telling us something is wrong with him.

 

[cgnVirtue]

I do think Tifas gonna bring up some of these conversations later, be it when helping Cloud piece himself together or otherwise. Or hell maybe even just seeing some kinda flashback to them from Tifas POV.

This is one of those instances where having knowledge of the original game’s events helps a lot.

While playing through Rebirth I remember getting a bit frustrated because I was so curious about what Tifa and Aerith were talking about. Like on the Gold Saucer date with Tifa, it cuts off right when Aerith is like “what??” in the flashback. It’s even worse in the Forgotten Capital when Cloud’s slipping in and out of consciousness because they’re having full blown party conversations and I didn’t get to know any of it. I wasn’t completely aware of the events after disc 1 until after I finished Rebirth because I was so desperate for answers.

It eased my mind a considerable amount knowing that we’re probably gonna be seeing from Tifa’s perspective for part 3, and that that’s an important part of the story.

Now I’m frustrated that I have to wait for part 3 lmao.

Edit: more specific wording

 

[liuliuliu]

Oh she died, and she will not come back alive.

Maybe my memory is messed up but I think I read in one interview they specifically said OG is considered each character’s destiny, re- just shows how they fight their way to reach the ending

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Yes I just saw that, you can check it here:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1775409188690165929

I haven't decided yet but it is possible that it's because it's all in Cloud's head, we'll see what comes out. I think it's very clear that they knew where they were going with the 2nd and 3rd game, seeing some of the ending scenes... it's very interesting.

- ohh i never gave attention to the credits though this is interesting I still dont believe in Jenova theory but if somehow this is true... its gonna sunk that ship even more we will see another bunch of meltdowns

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, at least I’m as tall as Cloud.

Zack and Sephiroth definitely seems like a discrepancy. Also 6’2 to Aerith’s 5’3. Tall-short couple.

That's a smaller gap than my wife and I.

I just wanted to add to the Bleach topic, it should be mentioned, and I could be misremembering this so don’t take my word 100%, the anime kinda shafted Orihime a bit since the someone involved with the anime was a pretty big Ichiruki fan. The manga does better job at showing Orihime as main the love interest I believe and developing her character in general. I also think the fact that she was a healer instead of direct combatant lead to people dog piling on her calling her useless ignoring the times she provided emotional comfort to Ichigo, tho to be fair Rukia did to. Personally I really liked her because she was sweet and endearing and I just don’t think heroines always gotta be badasses. It should also be mention Rukia is like 100years older than Ichigo tho in anime thats hardly ever a problem. Anyways I just wanted to mention these things as I thought they’d be important to the comparison.

Yes, the anime did Orihime dirty and cut a lot of her moments.

Also, people say IchiRuk went gracefully, but there were some major death throes for a good while afterwards.
Not, you know, 27 year long death throes, but they were there.

 

[Yoru]

- ohh i never gave attention to the credits though this is interesting I still dont believe in Jenova theory but if somehow this is true... its gonna sunk that ship even more we will see another bunch of meltdowns

I don't think it has anything to do with Jenova.

It just shows Cloud POV can't be trusted, it's the game telling you "I can't show you because that's not what happened"

imo it's just a nice meta message to tease us and tell us we will see what really happened later (=she's not here, we burried her, she's gone)

 

[Stiggie]

I agree with this. I've never hated a character just because they're a love interest but them being the love interest™ isn't an excuse not to actually develop the relationship. I'm probably going to word this badly but a character's whole raison d'être being about loving the main character isn't quite the same as being the love interest™, particularly if said relationship isn't actually developed or is developed badly. It's just as common to see love rivals in fiction whose raison d'être is to love the main character but they still don't get the girl/boy. So holding largely one-sided feelings as a metric whether someone is a love interest or not is kind of silly.

Thing is, when people dislike a character they'll pretend their raison d'etre is the MC, for example, tifa has had this accusation levied against her for as long as she exists.

(As did inoue and hinata)