I agree but it’s not that she’s the chosen one of the world
She’s just being protected because she is Clouds key
I get way you mean though. It’s getting too messy.
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
I agree but it’s not that she’s the chosen one of the world
She’s just being protected because she is Clouds key
I get way you mean though. It’s getting too messy.
shady
Pro Adventurer
I don't think it's the case of the weapons doing this because Tifa is some "chosen one" of the planet per se.
I think what the sequence is demonstrating is the planet, and therefore the weapons and the whispers of fate -- or maybe even Aerith in the Lifestream -- understand the utmost critical role Tifa is going to play in the upcoming struggle for not only the fate of the planet and the party but the fate of Cloud himself.
If we believe that Sephiroth and even Aerith have knowledge of future events, and basing what we know is likely going to happen in Part 3 from the OG game, there are going to be a big moments where the party need guidance, care, they need a leader and Tifa will be the one to step up, there are going to be moments where Tifa will face her own struggles but overcome them, and most critically there will be a time where Cloud will hollow out completely but then later find himself completely whole again -- both of these events are triggered and ultimately rest on the shoulders of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa.
Sephiroth knows that Tifa is the lynchpin to piecing together the real Cloud together again -- the real Cloud who goes on to defeat Sephiroth not once but once again in Advent Children -- nobody else is capable of helping Cloud this way because of their unique shared history and their unique unshared feelings between one another. Which, yes, even if some don't want to admit so, these are feelings of love, the romantic kind. Remake effectively demonstrated the complex and complicated dynamic between Cloud and Tifa exceptionally well -- but as of Rebirth, they've taken it a step further in a pretty lengthy stride in one direction, complex and complicated still, but also with a huge sense of longing and love mixed within. This is not only demonstrated through Cloud and Tifa themselves throughout their romantic arc in the game, which is full of the most classic and nuanced tropes you can possibly find in romantic fiction and cinema, but they also bring Sephiroth into the mix to really show the players (especially if they've never played the OG) just how important it is that these two remain as closely linked and as bonded as possible because the fate of themselves but also the planet depend on it.
So what you see in the Lifestream section rather then Tifa being hand selected as some "chosen one" is the planet/Aerith battling it out with Sephiroth to control the fate and the memories of Tifa going forward because if Tifa falters here, Cloud falters, they falter together, and fate is forever changed in Sephiroth's favour, this is why he's spent the better part of the game convincing Cloud she isn't real, sowing mistrust and discord. This is also why Tifa was made to relive her memory of realCloud coming to save her on the bridge and not abandoning her, because Cloud just attacked her, and whilst it's not in her character to hold against him actions he cannot control, she see's a reminder that realCloud is in no way shape or form that person and he would never do anything to hurt her under his own free will.
Sephiroth played a piece on the chess board in Gongaga in trying to push Cloud and Tifa further apart, only this time the planet/Aerith placed a piece back and used the situation to their advantage to ultimately push them closer together in the moment. Though we know that Sephiroth isn't finished because by the end of Rebirth he gets the last laugh and Cloud is pretty far gone and Tifa looks pretty distraught and upset and what she is seeing. But before this at the TOTA you see Sephiroth using a load of Black Whispers in an attempt to keep Tifa away from Cloud when he's manipulating him to attack Aerith, Tifa's influence is currently waning, Sephiroth said so himself in Gongaga with his "Your words can't reach him now" line, but that doesn't mean it's completely gone. Not only this but it's partially why I subscribe to the 'Aerith' is Sephiroth/Jenova theory at the Lake in the ending, this may turn out to be untrue but I almost get the sense Aerith smirking cruelly at Tifa as she looks upset is a sign from Sephiroth at how he has now been able to create such a big gap between Cloud and Tifa by the end of the game.
To round off my point though before I ramble on any further, Aerith and Zack are the "chosen ones" of Final Fantasy VII, they are the atypical fantasy heroes of such stories, what Final Fantasy VII does is flip that on it's head by having them support and ultimately sacrifice themselves in support of two country bumpkins turned hero's who's story and characters are so inextricably linked together that to have them apart means the damnation of the planet and the fruition of Sephiroth's plan.
I'm extremely excited to see what happens in the Lifestream sequence in the future and what this all means for it, but i'm envisioning an expanded sequence with their feelings explored even further than it was in the OG, because Rebirth has set it up this way. More extreme emotional turmoil before we get an satisfying emotional payoff in the Lifestream is what I envision.
Apologies for the lengthy post I realise you probably didn't need to read all this! It's just late and when I started typing I just couldn't stop haha.
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LunarTarotGirl
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Lunarae
I think the issue "with both sides do X, no they don't the other side is the worst" is that either side stays in their little bubble and hardly ventures out to get the POV of the other side. Especially on social media. It is an echo chamber. We only ever really interact with our own mutuals and usually curate our spaces and block those we don't get along with so it's harder for either side to see anything beyond screenshots of the other side's takes usually always completely out of context.
Each side then goes "oh but our side never does what that side does". When I who have mutuals on both sides can confidently say yes, they do.
However, it's usually outliers doing the worst things on either side, small accounts a few or no one interacts with and rarely is it brought up. Which is frustrating because they can go under the radar and do some pretty heinous stuff more unnoticed than a giant account with thousands of followers.
And it's harder to hold anyone accountable in general. Because of course we can't ever see any full interactions with people outside our own circles if they're blocked or we blocked them. I've had several CA mutuals though deal with some nasty stuff too. They just never bring it up publicly. So people don't really know what the other side is going through. They only see their experience which is understandable but it does create echo chamvbers.
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And in extension this is also a big problem with ending the LTD both sides aren't actually engaging with the other, not really in any meaningful way. There is again echochambers going on where again everyone responds through screenshots but never actually talks. Argues, insults eachother but never actually talks.
To end a debate we need to have a dialogue. A dialogue we don't have because other than maybe here neither side is actually talking to eachother.
And sadly I don't think there is much the devs can do about that. Any attempt to encourage dialogue is seen as them being conspirists or fueling the LTD. Anything they say is supercharged and used as another as was said perfectly bullet point for the LTD.
There is no real dialogue so nothing progresses. Hence we find ourselves seeing the same takes, the same arguments the same sentiment that it's the other side that's the problem "if they could only listen". When basically no one is listening just constantly responding. And each side grows more and more resentful as we continue to add bullet points to a debate we all honestly want to end. So I mean of course the LTD continues in that type of situation.
I think this whole situation with the interviews and songs and the can of worms anytime an Ultimania comes out just proves this more to me. While there is a love triangle because that's two girls and the focus of the feelings for the same guy I really don't think that's the problem or was it ever a problem to show two women have feelings for the protagonist. Or act on their feelings. I don't think the problem was these women or their arcs. I don't think the biggest problem has ever been within the story itself. I think it's just the situation itself and maybe the way it was originally handled and the echochambers built over 27 years.
So it's not the story that needs to end it I think. And that is the frustrating problem that keeps things going.
Those are just my thoughts on all this lately.
Each side then goes "oh but our side never does what that side does". When I who have mutuals on both sides can confidently say yes, they do.
However, it's usually outliers doing the worst things on either side, small accounts a few or no one interacts with and rarely is it brought up. Which is frustrating because they can go under the radar and do some pretty heinous stuff more unnoticed than a giant account with thousands of followers.
And it's harder to hold anyone accountable in general. Because of course we can't ever see any full interactions with people outside our own circles if they're blocked or we blocked them. I've had several CA mutuals though deal with some nasty stuff too. They just never bring it up publicly. So people don't really know what the other side is going through. They only see their experience which is understandable but it does create echo chamvbers.
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And in extension this is also a big problem with ending the LTD both sides aren't actually engaging with the other, not really in any meaningful way. There is again echochambers going on where again everyone responds through screenshots but never actually talks. Argues, insults eachother but never actually talks.
To end a debate we need to have a dialogue. A dialogue we don't have because other than maybe here neither side is actually talking to eachother.
And sadly I don't think there is much the devs can do about that. Any attempt to encourage dialogue is seen as them being conspirists or fueling the LTD. Anything they say is supercharged and used as another as was said perfectly bullet point for the LTD.
There is no real dialogue so nothing progresses. Hence we find ourselves seeing the same takes, the same arguments the same sentiment that it's the other side that's the problem "if they could only listen". When basically no one is listening just constantly responding. And each side grows more and more resentful as we continue to add bullet points to a debate we all honestly want to end. So I mean of course the LTD continues in that type of situation.
I think this whole situation with the interviews and songs and the can of worms anytime an Ultimania comes out just proves this more to me. While there is a love triangle because that's two girls and the focus of the feelings for the same guy I really don't think that's the problem or was it ever a problem to show two women have feelings for the protagonist. Or act on their feelings. I don't think the problem was these women or their arcs. I don't think the biggest problem has ever been within the story itself. I think it's just the situation itself and maybe the way it was originally handled and the echochambers built over 27 years.
So it's not the story that needs to end it I think. And that is the frustrating problem that keeps things going.
Those are just my thoughts on all this lately.
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Eerie
Fire and Blood
@LunarTarotGirl personally I know there are bad apples on both sides who attack the other side, but that’s not what I’m talking about here, I’m talking about fans who harass Nojima as well as content creators for the lightest stuff. I think it shows how badly this has gone - way too far! People should touch some grass and if they’re that unhappy about the canon maybe it’s time to reevaluate this game and if it’s good for you to be that involved.
And I mean that as someone who frequently tell an IRL friend to stop engaging in fights in Twitter because it really affects him (not fandom related).
And I mean that as someone who frequently tell an IRL friend to stop engaging in fights in Twitter because it really affects him (not fandom related).
Someonesbunny
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- Rabbit
I think before this even happens, we actually need a solid premise within which we pursue the answer, but, as you probably know, there are too many instances where we have people that just generally refuse to concede anything. Enough people here have been around long enough to know the type of argumentation this is pointing to, however, I don't believe this is a "both sides" kind of issue either. I think we just have to take one look at that old archived LTD thread to see just how weird it got.
To be clear, I have no issues with anyone shipping whatever, but as it is a debate on canonicity it is important to actually make a distinction here: those that debate the canonicity of CA often employ tactics that seek to disprove CT rather than prove the validity of their own narrative. In the past 5 years alone, I've seen the goalposts move in a way that goalposts shouldn't, where entire arguments are hinged on antiquated, already proven false premises and narratives such as "Tifa the Liar," "Tifa the Bully," "Tifa the Unreliable Narrator," "Zack the Unimportant Fuckboy," "Mutual Feelings of Friendship Only," "Low Affection for Thee but not for Me," "Optional for Thee but not for Me," "They Sleep in Separate Rooms," "They Raise Children Together as Friends," "They are Financially Co-Dependent as Friends," relying on release chronology instead of narrative chronology to make an assessment like "Zerith Copied Clerith so its Fake," and the list continues even outside of the microcosm of the FFVII universe and into the likes of, say, Kingdom Hearts which is an entire can of worms in and of itself. On a point of canonicity, CT's also generally accept that the "Last Order: Final Fantasy VII" is clearly not canon in a way that I do not generally see CA's acknowledge "Maiden Who Travels the Planet" also being outside of canon, both being examples of materials that are not officially part of the continuity but are seen as assets to each respectively.
I remember that there was even a time when the basic idea of "Cloud probably had feelings for Aerith" was largely accepted even by CT's, mostly because, at least by my assessment, they couldn't conceive of anything that could undo what the Lifestream Sequence and the Highwind Scene had given the relationship of Cloud and Tifa. If I remember correctly, this still devolved into a discussion that tried to make romance a zero sum game, where Cloud possibly loving Aerith first meant that Cloud must therefore love Tifa less because he is "settling for what's left over," while also completely insulting the kind of relationship that widowers and widows have with their new spouses. This further spouted new and bizarre claims which include, but are not limited to, "Cloud was just using Tifa" and "Cloud was thinking of Aerith when he slept with Tifa."
Now, none of the above is to say that CT's have never made a disingenuous argument - I've seen enough floating around to know that that's not true. All this is to say is that I don't believe that the CA's embroiled in the LTD are willing or able to concede any point at all about Cloud's feelings about Tifa and their eventual romantic confirmation for the simple fact that for a debate to end, someone must lose.
And I think it's clear who will.
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Someonesbunny
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- Rabbit
@LunarTarotGirl, I also want to make it clear, I am responding to your above statement, but none of this is meant as a slight to you because I've never seen you engage in this type of thing. These are just observations of how the debate went through the years and our unfortunate history in the FFVII fandom.
youffie
Pro Adventurer
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I didn’t mean weaken Tifa per se, as I don’t think that Tifa not being able to reach Cloud at this point matters that much in the great scheme of things. I meant more… break her faith in Cloud irreparably, so that she gives up on him, so that the Lifestream sequence never happens. That’s it, that’s all Sephiroth needs; Cloud breaking is not the goal, it’s a given.
The question is... how, as that seems almost antithetical to her arc and character. In Rebirth we saw that he tried to make Cloud distrust and attack her, and it backfired; he tried to kill her himself, and it looks like it’s not that easy, because there seem to be limitations to what he can do and other forces are at play. So maybe he needs to try a less direct approach, and maybe we’re already seeing the first fruits of said approach in the ending – with Tifa being barely able to look at Cloud. So, could there be something that would be too far even for her?
Unlike the original, the party doesn’t seem to witness the actual murder here, I think? I’m just spitballing here, but if I were Sephiroth under this specific set of circumstances that I’ve created, I’d tap into her deepest fear and lie my ass off, telling her that Cloud was the one who killed Aerith for him – actually, he also totally killed Zack and that’s how he got that sword in case you were wondering, why not. It’s plausible enough; after all, he did almost murder Tifa too, and many other people right in front of her, from the very beginning. In fact, this could even trigger some ripple effects, with Tifa realizing that by choosing to believe in Cloud and not disclosing what really happened in Gongaga (I think?) she has put not just herself, but the whole party in danger, and it got Aerith killed. Maybe it could even break the party itself.
Just a thought.
That’s interesting. I don’t see how they could ever recover from that though and why she’d stay with Cloud in Mideal. But I think you’re on the right track with some of it
Tbh I think it all ties back to Sephiroth not understanding about love and emotions
So I think that’s the key thing here
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
I think you're into something. Pushing the idea of murderer Cloud is maybe too much imo. But i'm totally with you with the fact that at the end of Rebirth, Aerith death is weighing much more heavily on Tifa than Cloud. This is the moment in game where they're the furthest apart from each other we've ever seen. Tifa didn't speak a word since the end of the game. Pretty powerful.
youffie
Pro Adventurer
Oh yeah, I also don't know how you'd get back from that, which is why I said if I were Sephiroth and not if I were the writer. Then again, just because Sephiroth tries something doesn't mean it's going to work 100% as intended, and I think it would be weird if all he has planned for the Tifa problem after Gongaga is doubling down on Cloud. He can also mostly get to her indirectly through Cloud, if Rebirth was any indication, and he hasn't much time left.
yeh I think the key thing is that even though Cloud loses it because he thinks Tifa's faith in him is lost in Northern Crater the reality is that she never did and never will give up on him
so I guess they can play up that angle more as well
You know I actually thought of something really similar to this. Like, what if Sephiroth killed Aerith not to break Cloud specifically, but to break Aerith’s best friend. Perhaps he knew Cloud would already be under his control, but that’s not enough. Perhaps he’s annoyed that Tifa’s able to bring ground Cloud and bring him back to reality. He can’t kill Cloud, and he can’t kill Tifa directly.
It’s kind of funny too because I have another thought I’ve had brewing for a while. I think the scene in Gongaga where Cloud tries to save Tifa was the perfect storm. I don’t know if anyone’s brought this up before, but hear me out here. Cloud sees Tifa in danger from Scarlet and he stumbles to her rescue despite being weakened severely hindered by (what I think is) Mako poisoning. He’s faced with a squad of Shinra troops as the only obstacle between him and the girl he loves. (Sound like anyone else we know?
).Cloud, deep down, having his inferiority complex, likely doubts himself and sees Sephiroth. But notice that Sephiroth doesn’t threaten him or even oppose him. There aren’t even any ominous or ambiguous words. It’s like he encourages him. “Let that righteous anger guide you.” Sephiroth knows Cloud wants to be a hero. He also knows how much Tifa means to Cloud. In a moment of weakness, Cloud, whether directly or subconsciously, lets Sephiroth in. And that was all Sephiroth needed. Cloud thought he denied him, but what happens next? Instead of mimicking his friend Zack selflessly charging into battle, we see a that Cloud completely and effortlessly dismantles an entire battalion just like Sephiroth would. He even switches to his left hand at the end, Sephiroth’s dominant hand, when he impales the last guy.
Alright, that was brutal. But Tifa’s safe, mission accomplished right?
No. He was able to tap into Cloud’s deepest desire. And from there he’s able to stay in Cloud’s head to convince him to hurt Tifa.
Cloud fails to follow through fully, so he takes matters into his own hands. But he can’t really hurt the Weapon. Which brings me back to the previous point.
He can’t get Cloud to hurt Tifa, he can’t hurt Tifa directly, so what can he do?
He kills Aerith. But why would he do that if he needs to get rid of Tifa?
Because Tifa was her best friend. And as we can see, Cloud fails to save Aerith. A double whammy. He’s able to hurt them both. Under normal circumstances, this would be less than a bump in the road. They’ve had each other the whole game. Both of them share unique trauma. But while Tifa’s been able to grieve, Cloud never got the chance to. Cloud lost his village, his mom, thought he lost Tifa (and he couldn’t actually save her again), then he was experimented on for 5 years. Then he watches his best friend die and suddenly he’s back then one of his close friends in Aerith, dies, and he couldn’t save any of them.
I have no proof of this, but I think Sephiroth knew how Cloud would react from being allowed access to his head in Gongaga. Like Cloud’s been doing this whole time, he’s lying to himself to repress his trauma. Zack didn’t die, Zack never was. Or he’s Zack. Aerith didn’t die, he saved her right? She’s right there after all.
We also have Tifa who just witnessed her best friend die. But now she doesn’t have Cloud. And why doesn’t she? Because he hasn’t faced the truth. And she’s kept the truth from him and as we know in Rebirth she’s confided in Aerith about the discrepancies in Cloud’s memories. So it’s an interesting thought that Tifa might also feel intense guilt. Because in a way, she’s losing Cloud because he doesn’t know the truth. Or he just can’t face the truth. And she lost Aerith as a result of all of this snowballing. The difference between them dealing with Aerith’s death seems to be tearing them apart by the end of the game. Which is what I think Sephiroth intended to happen. A triple whammy, I guess. Aerith (to his knowledge) is out of the picture, Cloud is so mentally unstable, and Tifa doesn’t have the support of Cloud at all, the person she needs most.
Hooo wow that was a ramble
. I hope all of that makes sense.Edit: probably shouldn’t have made this post at 2am, but it is what it is. If I make no sense I am willing to elaborate lmao.
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You know I actually thought of something really similar to this. Like, what if Sephiroth killed Aerith not to break Cloud specifically, but to break Aerith’s best friend. Perhaps he knew Cloud would already be under his control, but that’s not enough. Perhaps he’s annoyed that Tifa’s able to bring ground Cloud and bring him back to reality. He can’t kill Cloud, and he can’t kill Tifa directly.
It’s kind of funny too because I have another thought I’ve had brewing for a while. I think the scene in Gongaga where Cloud tries to save Tifa was the perfect storm. I don’t know if anyone’s brought this up before, but hear me out here. Cloud sees Tifa in danger from Scarlet and he stumbles to her rescue despite being weakened severely hindered by (what I think is) Mako poisoning. He’s faced with a squad of Shinra troops as the only obstacle between him and the girl he loves. (Sound like anyone else we know?
Cloud, deep down, having his inferiority complex, likely doubts himself and sees Sephiroth. But notice that Sephiroth doesn’t threaten him or even oppose him. There aren’t even any ominous or ambiguous words. It’s like he encourages him. “Let that righteous anger guide you.” Sephiroth knows Cloud wants to be a hero. He also knows how much Tifa means to Cloud. In a moment of weakness, Cloud, whether directly or subconsciously, lets Sephiroth in. And that was all Sephiroth needed. Cloud thought he denied him, but what happens next? Instead of mimicking his friend Zack selflessly charging into battle, we see a that Cloud completely and effortlessly dismantles an entire battalion just like Sephiroth would. He even switches to his left hand at the end, Sephiroth’s dominant hand, when he impales the last guy.
Alright, that was brutal. But Tifa’s safe, mission accomplished right?
No. He was able to tap into Cloud’s deepest desire. And from there he’s able to stay in Cloud’s head to convince him to hurt Tifa.
Cloud fails to follow through fully, so he takes matters into his own hands. But he can’t really hurt the Weapon. Which brings me back to the previous point.
He can’t get Cloud to hurt Tifa, he can’t hurt Tifa directly, so what can he do?
He kills Aerith. But why would he do that if he needs to get rid of Tifa?
Because Tifa was her best friend. And as we can see, Cloud fails to save Aerith. A double whammy. He’s able to hurt them both. Under normal circumstances, this would be less than a bump in the road. They’ve had each other the whole game. Both of them share unique trauma. But while Tifa’s been able to grieve, Cloud never got the chance to. Cloud lost his village, his mom, thought he lost Tifa (and he couldn’t actually save her again), then he was experimented on for 5 years. Then he watches his best friend die and suddenly he’s back then one of his close friends in Aerith, dies, and he couldn’t save any of them.
I have no proof of this, but I think Sephiroth knew how Cloud would react from being allowed access to his head in Gongaga. Like Cloud’s been doing this whole time, he’s lying to himself to repress his trauma. Zack didn’t die, Zack never was. Or he’s Zack. Aerith didn’t die, he saved her right? She’s right there after all.
We also have Tifa who just witnessed her best friend die. But now she doesn’t have Cloud. And why doesn’t she? Because he hasn’t faced the truth. And she’s kept the truth from him and as we know in Rebirth she’s confided in Aerith about the discrepancies in Cloud’s memories. So it’s an interesting thought that Tifa might also feel intense guilt. Because in a way, she’s losing Cloud because he doesn’t know the truth. Or he just can’t face the truth. And she lost Aerith as a result of all of this snowballing. The difference between them dealing with Aerith’s death seems to be tearing them apart by the end of the game. Which is what I think Sephiroth intended to happen. A triple whammy, I guess. Aerith (to his knowledge) is out of the picture, Cloud is so mentally unstable, and Tifa doesn’t have the support of Cloud at all, the person she needs most.
Hooo wow that was a ramble
Edit: probably shouldn’t have made this post at 2am, but it is what it is. If I make no sense I am willing to elaborate lmao.
no it makes sense. I just wonder how the rest of the northern crater will go and Mideal to Lifestream will go if this is the case
but yeh a lot of this lines up with what Seph and Tifa say in the lifestream
"your words cant reach him anymore"
"please Cloud I need you"
just curious how they resolve it tbh
youffie
Pro Adventurer
I don’t think he killed Aerith for Tifa or Cloud, he killed her for the same reason he targets Tifa or Cloud: because they're a threat. But why let a good mindfuck go to waste when it can further his goals.
I definitely got the impression that Sephiroth planned Gongaga very carefully, luring Cloud in a place where he’d be more vulnerable and then immediately acting when he had the chance. The whole sequence was the only Sephiroth scene since the OG I genuinely liked: manipulative but for a specific goal that is clearly communicated, deadly and actually dangerous, with apparent limitations that force him to think out of the box, straight to the point. He even keeps his mouth shut for once and loses the stupid evil smirk when it doesn't work!
I wish all the new plot additions had been written like chapter 9: you don’t fully understand what is going on or why, but you understand enough to know what the stakes are, the stakes themselves are not astronomically high and abstract to the point they lose any real meaning, there is proper build-up, and you get a satisfying emotional payoff for the characters while setting up more for the future. Everything (plot, lore, character writing) comes together to create a powerful, engaging moment. Which is probably why I want more of this and less of… whatever that was at the end.
I definitely got the impression that Sephiroth planned Gongaga very carefully, luring Cloud in a place where he’d be more vulnerable and then immediately acting when he had the chance. The whole sequence was the only Sephiroth scene since the OG I genuinely liked: manipulative but for a specific goal that is clearly communicated, deadly and actually dangerous, with apparent limitations that force him to think out of the box, straight to the point. He even keeps his mouth shut for once and loses the stupid evil smirk when it doesn't work!
I wish all the new plot additions had been written like chapter 9: you don’t fully understand what is going on or why, but you understand enough to know what the stakes are, the stakes themselves are not astronomically high and abstract to the point they lose any real meaning, there is proper build-up, and you get a satisfying emotional payoff for the characters while setting up more for the future. Everything (plot, lore, character writing) comes together to create a powerful, engaging moment. Which is probably why I want more of this and less of… whatever that was at the end.
my thing is does future Seph know what Tifa saw in the lifestream about Cloud going with her up Nibelheim mountain. Because if he doesnt I am assuming the fact the planet showed her that means it is critical to whatever the undoing that Seph will keep gaslighting Tifa and Cloud about for the first 1/3 of the next game
LunarTarotGirl
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Lunarae
I'm not talking about bad apples either. Or fandom history. I'm talking about the problem with the current situation. There is of course no excuse to harrass the creators. Or anyone. 100% those people are terrible and need to roll in a field of grass.
Also to be clear @Eerie I wasn't necessarily responding to your statement on harassments besides agreeing that saying "both sides" actually deflects from the issue it deflects from accountability. Which is why I didn't quote you because you didn't say anything I really disagree with and didn't want you to think I did.
I was just summarizing my thoughts on the entire week. And your post and the harrasment in general did spark my thinking on how willfully blind it has made some people. But also in response to everything I am thinking too about how the lack of accountability is as I said made worse because besides terrible people not caring is a huge issue. But also each side also doesn't fully see what the other side is going through making it really easy for people to get away with stuff. Social media adds to that problem. But basically the back and forth of "both sides are bad" conversely "this side is worse" completely deflects from the problem in the moment. And harrasers sadly get away with a lot in the background when there is deflection.
But I brought it up because it I think applies to the current situation. Nojima getting harrased lead to "well this side was worse!" Or well "both sides are bad". And never really adressed that issue that "ok but he is still getting insults and his mentions are full, let's not". People still need to not do that no matter what. And that's what sadly happens every time the devs open their mouths to say anything. And how ironically we still need both sides to agree on something or this will never end. Which is what has reinforced my thinking that it's not really on the devs anymore.
But I think people have this idea that it's the devs that need to end this (and thus get frustrated, why did you do that? Now the other side will be worse etc) And poor Nojima got the brunt of it. when honestly I think they've done enough. And this whole situation showed that to me. That unfortunately every word they say does the opposite they're seen as either supporters or traitors to the cause.
I think they've been more than accommodating. Now it's up to the fandom itself to come to some consensus. Some dialogue not just on LTD but the harrasment as well.
But if we're only looking at our own we will never have that dialogue. It's not a "both sides are bad thing" I'm not saying that because that handwaves away the issue. It's that the situation has become an echochamber where accountability is almost non existent and both sides think the same exact thing "that side is The Worst" whether true or not I think the problem remains that it is both sides that need to engage properly to end this. But it continues because we don't or many believe we can't have that dialogue.
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Yoru
Pro Adventurer
I understand what you say and yes, it's not the job of the creators to make things right. Like you said, they've done enough already on their part.
But it's where the things get tough. Yes they have done enough. Did it change anything ? No. And it won't. Sadly I'm afraid there's no in-between for this people (the extreme CA/CT) they don't want debate or exchange of ideas. They just want their vision to bear fruit. They want to win. That's why they're "extremists" in the first place. They live in a world of no contradictions. Their pair is canon. The end. Concede the minimum of importance for the rival pair, is to soil their own. It can't happen. Cloud love for A/T is unconditional, exclusive, without any doubt. Because if not, it's not true love for them.
So yeah, i'm sorry to be pessimistic, but i really can't see it happening. "Our" only hope is part 3 is pretty straighforward and one side of the fandom feel betrayed, stop caring/get back to OG.
If the third game is clear in its intentions, the general public will have its answer. And as a result, shippers will appear as a de facto a minority, and will gradually disappear or remain in small circles. Kinda what a headcanon has always been.
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LunarTarotGirl
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Lunarae
I want to make it clear I'm not at all saying "both sides are bad" because that handwaves the issue. It's a deflection that results in no one taking accountability. And I know the history because I'm not a new fan myself. But I'm in the unique situation of not having gotten involved and observing for more than a decade. Of having mutuals on both sides and seeing how they think. Seeing their experiences.
And I know for a fact that both sides are convinced "That side worse!" I explained why that's also an issue and it never addresses the current issue with the LTD the fact that even if either side were the devil we still need both sides to end a debate. We still need a consensus. Someone must lose but they also need to admit it. To talk. To have a consensus. I explained why I observe we don't have one. And why things have from my observation gotten worse and sadly gotten ridicously too far.
I know the history but in the current situation a lot of the people you see arguing are brand new to the fandom now. They are not part of the history, many didn't even know of it but were dragged in anyway I'm talking both CTs and CAs. It's natural when new people join the fandom to repeat whatever was said previously sadly and I know that has included Tifa hate. Stuff I very explicitly argued against myself. But there were also a lot of newer CA fans that weren't having it. Many that spoke out about the misogyny against Tifa. Many who really think Tifa is a great character and voiced it, many who spoke out against the extremists even. Some even speaking out against harrasment to the devs right now. There is a lot that happened that as I said many aren't aware of for the exact same reason I said.
They too are part of the current situation. A bigger part than we actually see because as I've said before it's the extremists of both sides that get a giant spotlight on them and many use that to color the fandom. And while it's true that there are bad apples anywhere I think focusing on the bad apples so much has effectively lead to ignoring everything else. And has made it so no one wants to talk. Neither side wants to talk. I don't blame them.
We only ever see what is going on in OUR radius our circle and that makes sense honestly. But it's been 27 years so these these echo chambers are now fortified with titanium steel where no one is actually engaging. We can't end a debate if we're responding through screenshots.
And you'd be surprised the number of CA's that are willing to accept Tifa, as a love interest some even as endgame. They just either believe Cloud loved Aerith too or they don't like the way the fandom talks about Aerith so they're not going to really interact with anyone. And no matter how people feel. It makes sense they wouldn't interact they believe they'll be shut down immediately or they think worse they will get bullied. And tell me with a straight face are they really wrong? Because when it comes to the extremists they shut down everyone including their own.
But also these people are in their own little bubble as well and can't see that's not everyone either. There is the narrative that is also not true spread in their circles is that CTs hate Aerith by default. A narrative I have found to be untrue as well. But as long as it continues and other narrative continues no one really wants to engage with anything but screenshots as I said.
Right now though there are a lot of different opinions amongst CAs and CTs too. It's varied, lots of nuance in different ideas that we don't see because our attention is on the same dozen people. Thus the same dozen takes.
And I don't think it personally matters what the devs say or the story says if neither side leaves their echo chamber. And we need both sides to do that.
I'm not blaming anyone that is just the current situation.
We need to have a dialogue but we don't so the devs saying anything just adds fuel to the fire. Meanwhile harrassers do whatever they want in the background of that fire. Thankfully now they are being called out. I hope that it continues. But the uncomfortable truth is that one side can't end it alone. And as we have seen this week alone neither can the devs and I don't think the responsibility is on them after this. They've done their piece.
But we still need a consensus we don't have.
So how would we get it? I wish I knew. I just know the situation has really changed over time. History we may or may not not be part of does play a role but it doesn't completely apply to everyone now especially when Rebirth brought so many new fans. And many are patiently for the devs to end it when sadly it's come to the point they just fuel it. The situation is just that bad. And waiting for the other side to concede means waiting another 27 years.
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Yoru
Pro Adventurer
Is it FF7 fault tho?
I think we live in a real fucked up world where people don't even try to seek truth anymore. They just go with the narrative that suits them. That's what we saw with the explosion of social networks and the general state of Twitter right know. Echo chambers on Echo chambers just fueling the fire. Human race is in a weird spot at the moment.
Access to information has never been so easy and free, and yet people don't even bother to look for it. They're content to live in their own bubble, and it doesn't take long to get into conspiracies and the like.
FF7 fandom is just a mirror of our society. People are struggling everyday, they build their inner perception of the world, something that helps them going forward, and just go with it.
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LunarTarotGirl
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Lunarae
I really don't think it's anyone's "fault" if that makes sense. I agree though that yes the worst of fandom is a reflection of the worst of society currently (not just FF7 because I'm in other fandoms and I have seen it's even worse in those fandoms to the point FF7 fandom bothers me the least. If you can believe that. It's just scary out there)
And yes fandom has really become a mirror of society which isn't faring much better.
But rather than assigning blame I think I'm more in the camp of "This is how things are. So maybe we need to change our perspective." Extremists are stuck in their ways forever but I think a lot outside them has actually changed. For example people that used to hate Tifa are now fewer in the fandom lots of stuff has been debunked. People who didn't understand Aerith understand her a lot more now. Now we have people appreciating the friendship between them instead of seeing them as rivals. Lots of perspectives have shifted. The way Cloud is viewed has also shifted from emo guy, blank slate to beloved character. The views on Zack have shifted.
I think that it's hard to see however because as I said. The spotlight is on the extremists the ones that won't budge. So I don't think we need to look at them, we don't need to convince them.
Maybe we need to just shift our focus away from them and we will see no matter how bad it looks and even if I don't think the devs can or should be the ones to end things I do think a lot has changed. Some for worse and some for better too.
I just think we need to agree on this change in perspective. Stop casting that spotlight on the same dozen that will not move an inch. LTD doesnt end when extremists change their mind, they won't. It's when the general public comes to a consensus. Once we stop looking at those that are impossible to convince we can see how things have definitely changed and go from there.
If I make any sense.
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Yoru
Pro Adventurer
Yes I totally understand what you're trying to say and impulse.
But the saddest of things is : Our main medium to interact with each other are those damned social networks. And they aren't made to have constructive thoughts. Let's be honest, we're very few here. The easiest way to find people are things like twitter or youtube. And they're just not "discussion friendly" I would say. There are people right there that are trying. They really do. To be opened to other horizons and such. But they're immediately smacked in the face by the trolls, the antis yadi yada to a point you can't even try anymore. You find people with kinda the same ideas of yours, and that's that. Or you just say nothing.
Again i'm a super pessimistic person so i'm not here spiting facts and truth. That's just how I see things.
LunarTarotGirl
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Lunarae
Oh I completely understand where you're coming from. I'm not even sure if I'm an optimist myself. I'm extremely analytical. To the point I don't think much of what I say usually reflects my true feelings but more my thoughts on things that I observe. I do have moments where I too get pessimistic and think "well this will never end", that everyone I talk to will just be stuck in their own ways so what is even the point? But then my analytical brain kicks in to say "but what if you're just looking at this from too much bias? What if you shift your view? What if you consider other variables adjust and see the result?" It's probably both one my greatest weaknesses and strengths.
It's probably also why my view on LTD doesn't actually align that perfectly with any one "side". Even when I'm not even neutral.
It's a weird position to be in for sure... But I like to think it gives me some perspective and maybe even hope.
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Yoru
Pro Adventurer
But we can always try to do things right, right here and right now. So let's play a game and try to change perspective !
My background is this : I'm a Tifa stan at core.
Unlike many people, never liked Aerith in OG. Pissed me of so much. And it's with the Compilation things that my view changed. From what I saw, Aertih fans kinda hate her Compilation persona. And if I'm being honest, I think Zack re-introduction in her life played a role. As a Tifa stan, it's free real estate lmao. All of a sudden, the rival girl don't have to cling to blondie boy anymore ! So yeah I can understand why poeple who were attached to her in OG don't like the Compilation stuff. It's kinda like a retcon. I would be angry if all of a sudden they would release a game where Tifa get a new love interest. It's pretty unfair in a sense.
As for Tifa : Of course she's not perfect. When Cloud fell to the Church she's strangely not that preoccupied. Never tried too hard to search for him. And her plan to go and ask questions to Don Corneo ? Dumb at best. WTF girl, what did you expect ? And yeah, one of the major complains are kinda true. She's too passive. I understand she wants to protect Cloud, but when things go south and he's really losing it, you have to talk and tell the others. You're putting them in danger.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
To be fair, Zack was always Aerith’s love interest. Nothing in the OG game goes against that. He just came to greater importance because of the Compilation.
And I actually think it’s less to do with Zack, and more to do with the fact that Zerith became popular. So now it’s a threat.
Not to mention, Zack has quite a lot of fans so that doesn’t help now.
But yes, I do think it has to with giving Zack “the first moments” with Aerith now. You cannot divorce him from Aerith’s arc and personality anymore now that it’s canon that selling flowers came from him, and her offering a date came from him, etc.
It’s the same reason some Clerith fans will denigrate Tifa. They are obstacles that get in the way of the ship.
And I actually think it’s less to do with Zack, and more to do with the fact that Zerith became popular. So now it’s a threat.
Not to mention, Zack has quite a lot of fans so that doesn’t help now.
But yes, I do think it has to with giving Zack “the first moments” with Aerith now. You cannot divorce him from Aerith’s arc and personality anymore now that it’s canon that selling flowers came from him, and her offering a date came from him, etc.
It’s the same reason some Clerith fans will denigrate Tifa. They are obstacles that get in the way of the ship.