SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

Must have felt like sweet sweet vindication for some fans.

 

[cgnVirtue]

Close enough. I'm not at all saying people defaulted to favoring Aerith but that for those who did back then it was just really easy to get the impression she and Cloud were romantic. And not much information to stop anyone from doing so. IF they favored Aerith being the key, they weren't exactly gonna change their minds in Disk 2. And it was just so easy to miss certain scenes even if it it was easy to get Tifa's Highwind scene those who really favored Aerith were mostly paying attention to Aerith. And so if you are a CA it wasn't hard to think oh Aerith and Cloud are meant to be together. Which is what I was asked: How is that possible. I'm just explaining how it was possible.

I’ve mentioned this before, but before any Remakes came out I wasn’t that into FFVII at all. I never played the OG. And at the time I thought that Aerith was the “Zelda” to Cloud’s “Link” lol. I only vaguely knew Tifa by name. So I don’t think it’s too far fetched to say by default, a decent amount of people may have been like me. It wasn’t even until I played the Remakes that I realized there was an amazing story underneath and who Tifa really was.
Needless to say that definitely shifted my perspective lol.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Well I really don't know how to convey it to you but that is how it was. Then it shifted to "there is no player choice there is a canon" with fights over which was the true canon route. But when OG was a thing if you said this game is player choice you weren't going to find many people disagreeing. Now in 2024 you think it's weird but 1997 and the years up to AC were just a very different time.

If I think about OG being a first of its kind in 1997 with the dialogue options and variations of specific scenes, then sure, in that way the choices are more meaningful than in Fire Emblem Awakening, lol. But people still keep bringing up "player choices" today as if those choices were anything more than an illusion that dropped as soon as Cloud regained his sense of self and he chose Tifa. Like, the player can play into Cloud being interested in Aerith but the player can't actually romance Aerith, if that makes sense?

And again, this is just so vastly different from my experience because I started playing OG fully thinking that CA was canon, lol. I was also aware that Cloud was alive at the end of the game. So the second Aerith died, I realised that tidbit of information I'd passingly read was a lie and I went to confirm it online, which actually led me to the old LTD threads here, lol. They were a wild read.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

If I think about OG being a first of its kind in 1997 with the dialogue options and variations of specific scenes, then sure, in that way the choices are more meaningful than in Fire Emblem Awakening, lol. But people still keep bringing up "player choices" today as if those choices were anything more than an illusion that dropped as soon as Cloud regained his sense of self and he chose Tifa. Like, the player can play into Cloud being interested in Aerith but the player can't actually romance Aerith, if that makes sense?

And again, this is just so vastly different from my experience because I started playing OG fully thinking that CA was canon, lol. I was also aware that Cloud was alive at the end of the game. So the second Aerith died, I realised that tidbit of information I'd passingly read was a lie and I went to confirm it online, which actually led me to the old LTD threads here, lol. They were a wild read.

To be honest whenever I see "player choice" I just assume the person is an older fan not a newer one. That could be the wrong assumption but in my experience that has been the case. I can see why they see it that way because usually games with affection systems are player choice. This game subverted that. But on the surface there wasn't too much clear about the fact it was subverting it. You gain points with Aerith, you see her gain interest. It makes it hard to convince people who favor her they're not romancing her or that it doesn't change anything. At least imo OG wasn't great at showing that and that's why we're here talking about it. But when I made my theory that part of CA's portrayal was supposed to be part of the illusion of player choice, designed to make the player feel more like the rug is pulled away and for every twist to hit harder I was basically deemed secret CT so.. I don't think it's something easily accepted even now.

 

[parkdon]

To be honest whenever I see "player choice" I just assume the person is an older fan not a newer one. That could be the wrong assumption but in my experience that has been the case. I can see why they see it that way because usually games with affection systems are player choice. This game subverted that. But on the surface there wasn't too much clear about the fact it was subverting it. You gain points with Aerith, you see her gain interest. It makes it hard to convince people who favor her they're not romancing her or that it doesn't change anything. At least imo OG wasn't great at showing that and that's why we're here talking about it. But when I made my theory that part of CA's portrayal was supposed to be part of the illusion of player choice, designed to make the player feel more like the rug is pulled away and for every twist to hit harder I was basically deemed secret CT so.. I don't think it's something easily accepted even now.

Cloti has been canon since 1997
You are wrong

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Cloti has been canon since 1997
You are wrong

Sorry but? What exactly are you talking about?

"Whenever I see "player choice" I just assume it's an older fan not a newer one. I may be wrong in that assumption but in my experience that has been the case"
"You gain points with Aerith, you see her gain interest. It makes it hard to convince people who favor her they're not romancing her or that it doesn't change anything."
?????

I didn't talk about canon. Nor CT other than to say people thought I was one.
What exactly are you responding to?

 

[cgnVirtue]

Cloti has been canon since 1997
You are wrong

CloTi canon has been established, yes. I think @LunarTarotGirl was just making a point about player choice and how the OG subverted the expectations of “romancing” in games. As a game with affinity/affection mechanics, players expect their romance of choice to truly be a romance choice. But as to her point, there was no real choice in OG. And I’d argue that there isn’t really one in Rebirth either. But OG FFVII didn’t do a good job of relaying that illusion of choice to the player as much as Rebirth does.

Edit: added a word

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I’ve mentioned this before, but before any Remakes came out I wasn’t that into FFVII at all. I never played the OG. And at the time I thought that Aerith was the “Zelda” to Cloud’s “Link” lol. I only vaguely knew Tifa by name. So I don’t think it’s too far fetched to say by default, a decent amount of people may have been like me. It wasn’t even until I played the Remakes that I realized there was an amazing story underneath and who Tifa really was.
Needless to say that definitely shifted my perspective lol.

Yeah I'm not saying the majority defaulted to thinking Aerith was the main love interest. If it really was that most people agreed on one girl it wouldn't have been much of debate. People were definitely divided. It was pretty chaotic. It's just that nowadays some act like the idea of people seeing Clerith as a thing was so surprising when honestly it really wasn't farfetched people got to that conclusion, especially at the time. I think maybe it's due to looking at it in retrospect not realizing we really had very little information for long periods of time and that did affect how we viewed things.

I think maybe it really does depend on experience for those who have joined the LTD how they respond to it that colors our understanding. In my personal experience has made it so maybe I was fine with either way the story would go so I didn't get too entrenched in just one way of thinking.

I played OG when I was 16. Because of fate and my brother erasing it accidentally I had to play it again all the way to Northern Crater then I got inspired to get every scene in my players guide and played it multiple more times.

I was deep in online fandom in highschool and college but mostly a lurker. I lurked Deviant arts, GeoCities, xangas, and LiveJournals, multiple forums. I just never got involved with LTD myself watching other people talk about it instead because it was interesting. I didn't really understand much back then though.

AC came out when I was in college. I thought it was cool. It made me like Tifa a lot and consider CT as a couple. I used to make AMVs at the time and so I saw this movie like a gajillion times to edit its scenes for my AMVs. Really made me appreciate every frame of that movie lol. It's burned in my memory (I still have my AC x KH AMV and I will always remember how proud I was of the perfect transition I found between Sora finding Kairi unconscious and a cut to Cloud finding Tifa unconscious in AC church. That AMV took me hours. I got really aquainted w AC and learned to love it.)

Crisis Core came out. I played it very upset at first as I said, then I liked it. I didn't really think too much besides I like this Zack guy.

Then in 2010 I joined the Lifestream forums. I learned what the word Ultimania meant but honestly didn't understand why it was so important. I read essays on LTD. I still didn't get involved myself.

At one point between like 2007-2014 I had gotten really into Jpop and Jdramas and tv shows and so I started this phase of following as much Japanese sites and Japanese artists as possible to stay updated. This included following stuff related to my other interests. Most of my CA fanart fix was now through Japanese sites, Twitter etc and so I would see their ideas and stuff.

It was when Remake came out I got the most involved I'd ever been in LTD just by talking about my opinions on my blog. I had been a fan for almost 18 years by that time thus I had a lot to say lol.

But all through this time I only really talked about what I observed. I think all my time basically observing and not really arguing myself for a long time made it so I never really got too attached to any point of view. All throughout I enjoyed reading different perspectives. Even those that didn't align with mine. But a lot of people arguing for canon did get attached, very attached and I can definitely see how those attachments have made it hard to accept any challenge to their opinions.

Thus over 27 years these opinions are solidified as a steel hill no one wants to leave. I can definitely see why.

And yeah in general you basically get what I'm trying to say. I'm not arguing about canon just saying that yes these conclusions people made weren't that farfetched it also depended heavily on their experience did they favour Aerith or Tifa, did they know what an Ultimania was, etc.

Edit:
forgot how old I am for a second lol
Changed bizzare to surprising as it makes more sense

 

[tenabrus]

Cloti has been canon since 1997
You are wrong

I would rather talk with a CA who is interested in having a respectful conversation than someone I agree with who is rude about it. At least the former has substance.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I would rather talk with a CA who is interested in having a respectful conversation than someone I agree with who is rude about it. At least the former has substance.

Thank you. And likewise, I think you made very interesting points that add to a more nuanced perspective on LTD and how the game's narrative is viewed through different perspectives.

 

[Ryushikaze]

As for Tifa : Of course she's not perfect. When Cloud fell to the Church she's strangely not that preoccupied. Never tried too hard to search for him. And her plan to go and ask questions to Don Corneo ? Dumb at best. WTF girl, what did you expect ? And yeah, one of the major complains are kinda true. She's too passive. I understand she wants to protect Cloud, but when things go south and he's really losing it, you have to talk and tell the others. You're putting them in danger.

I think the shift literally came about because they got wind their home was going to be utterly destroyed in retaliation for their attacks. Cloud might have survived but if Tifa didn't get info nobody in Sector 7 would live.

To be fair, it’s the same as the OG. In fact, Cloud doesn’t even talk to her as the carriage is pulling away. Their first interaction after his fall is in Corneo’s basement.

But I do agree, having chapter like that might have been good. Although I’m not sure Tifa would be spending very long hanging on Cloud’s fall and most of it would just be her getting ready for the Corneo stuff.

Maybe lead from searching for info on Cloud into the "gotta save Sector 7" after a thug lets it slip as a taunt somehow.

At the Forgotten Capital, I don't think Sephiroth is thinking about Tifa at all. His primary goal is to kill Aerith/stop her from calling Holy. His secondary goal is to fuck with Cloud and taunt him about his weakness/inability to save anyone like he did during his ToTA trial. (Also, Sephiroth is not the most subtle villain in the world, lol. If Tifa was part of his plan here, he would let us know.)

So there are two Sephiroth's at the Capitol. One is our OG Sephiroth who was controlling the Jenova to kill Aerith. The other one is the rift-iroth who only appears after the world bifurcation effect happens. It's the second one who I think erased Aerith's death from Cloud. I do think Aerith is trying to restore those memories, though. Just before she appears "physically" Cloud's mind fuckery headache static has a Pink tint.

Cloud's delusion that he saved Aerith/that Aerith is still alive is one of his own making, and that's why it affects Tifa so much. The violence she can explain away, that's clearly Sephiroth, but this, this absence of grief, this lack of kindness, this she cannot. He is no longer the boy she grew up with. He is a stranger.

The thing is... I think she IS still alive. Not our Aerith, who is dead but appearing as a ghost to Cloud etc, but a slightly different Aerith who is now in a severed reality state. And then there's Future Aerith.

Cloud's mental state at the end of the game may come as a shock to the player, but I don't think that's the case for the rest of the party. Barret and Red have been talking about how weird he's acting as early as Ch. 3 and again in Ch. 11. Cloud being delusional is just par for the course for them. But with Tifa, it's different. She's spent the entire game trying to pull him back from the abyss, but now she can't speak to him. She can hardly even stand to look at him.

The fucked up thing here is I don't think Cloud is actually delusional. He's uninformed, but he was actually looking and talking to Aerith's ghost, he just forgot she died. Aerith is also not confronting him with that fact, though I think she's trying to help him remember.

I’ve read parts of them. And I’ve gotten some interesting lore on koi_bito and WcDonalds. And flower sex.

Believe it or not, that was still after the LTD had chilled out a bit.

Koi bito hopefully returns with the new ultimania though I will say one of those weapon fishes looked awfully pink XD

I actually thought they looked a bit red and blue, myself. Was wondering if they might be proto Ruby and Sapphire.

Well I really don't know how to convey it to you but that is how it was. Then it shifted to "there is no player choice there is a canon" with fights over which was the true canon route. But when OG was a thing if you said this game is player choice you weren't going to find many people disagreeing. Now in 2024 you think it's weird but 1997 and the years up to AC were just a very different time.

No, I have always been firmly in the "there is a singular narrative, the romance values are a fucking shell game that changes nothing and exist only to distract you from the actual twists, and I have been involved in this bullshit since well before AC came out.

It’s actually pretty easy to raise both affinities in the OG. I’ve done playthroughs where I get the Aerith date and the High Affection Highwind scene without actively trying tbh.

Date is decided by whomever has the highest AV towards Cloud at the moment the sequence starts. HA verse LA is whether or not Tifa's AV is above or below 50. If you're generally trying to be nice to both girls and play semi-competently, the date is effectively coinflipand the HA scene will definitely happen.

You should see my earlier post in this thread.

As someone who was around in the early days of the fandom (before Advent Children), I don't fully agree with your read of that time because I remember even back then what this kind of shipping discussion was like. It wasn't a clear cut "most people just assumed Aerith was the canon love interest", there were absolutely just as many Cloti shippers as there are today. I will agree that the importance of Zack in that sphere definitely increased with the compilation.

The understanding of Zack's importance has increased since the days of the OG, but even then he was understood to be important as both Aerith's first love and Cloud's former friend whom he copied.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@Ryushikaze But you're a Cloti right? I was talking about Cleriths. How Cleriths did have the idea of player choice but later on that it kinda shifted to arguing about a canon route and story points and less and less about point values (thank Gaia). Because I was asked how could Cleriths see OG as player choice. Hmm maybe I wasn't clear enough.
I remember back then the fights about those values. And from what I was saw there wasn't really widespread pushback against doing so. People usually just argued back with other values, even if yes not everyone believed the numbers counted. I'm pretty sure Cleriths did think they counted for a lot. And as I said I don't really know how to convey it because now it's just a rare argument to see. But it wasn't back then.

Though recently I did have a random person in my mentions trying to convince me we can choose to see or not see Tifa's HA HW scene therefore it's player choice and talking about values. Even though I literally never brought it up. It was nostalgic in a weird way....

 

[Ginkgo]

I have a genuine question - in what way was Cloud and Aerith's relationship ever romantic in the OG? When I first played the game, I liked Tifa and so I was extra nice to her, but I didn't go out of my way to be mean to Aerith and I got Tifa as a date at the GS without even really trying. I felt like Cloud and Aerith had a more brother/sister vibe to them. Some of you have said that the game sort of pushes Aerith in Disc 1, but I'm at a loss as to how. The game introduces the promise/water tower scene at the start and sets up the bond between Tifa and Cloud. So the sign is already there that there's something between these two.

Outside of YOU choosing certain dialogue options, what scenes in the OG are coded as romantic for Cloud and Aerith to make people perceive it that way? They also barely mention her after she dies and tbh I forgot she was even in the game half the time after Disc 1. It's true that Aerith has more affection points at the start, and therefore, it is easier to get her as a date at the GS, but even then, she is the only one whose date still has dialogue options for the player to choose from. And the options are lukewarm or just mean. I'm thinking of when Aerith asks Cloud if he likes spending time with her and the options are "No, I don't" (bruh) or "That's not it". Like why? Why did the developers choose to give us dialogue options on her date? Wasn't the point of those choices (largely) to determine who you go on a date with? At this point shouldn't I have proven that I prefer Aerith if I got her date? It's like the developers are still trying to see how YOU feel about this relationship that they sort of pushed at you.

The way I see it, there is no debate on whether or not Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship, but the developers wanted the player to decide for themselves about Cloud and Aerith. I was truly confused when I entered the fandom and learned that there was actually a serious debate. I am genuinely curious if there is something I'm missing. What scenes are there that are not influenced by the player that hint at a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith. The only thing I can think of is that Aerith offers a date for being her bodyguard and Caith Sith's fortune. Both very weak and Cloud doesn't encourage or react.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I have a genuine question - in what way was Cloud and Aerith's relationship ever romantic in the OG? When I first played the game, I liked Tifa and so I was extra nice to her, but I didn't go out of my way to be mean to Aerith and I got Tifa as a date at the GS without even really trying. I felt like Cloud and Aerith had a more brother/sister vibe to them. Some of you have said that the game sort of pushes Aerith in Disc 1, but I'm at a loss as to how. The game introduces the promise/water tower scene at the start and sets up the bond between Tifa and Cloud. So the sign is already there that there's something between these two.

Outside of YOU choosing certain dialogue options, what scenes in the OG are coded as romantic for Cloud and Aerith to make people perceive it that way? They also barely mention her after she dies and tbh I forgot she was even in the game half the time after Disc 1. It's true that Aerith has more affection points at the start, and therefore, it is easier to get her as a date at the GS, but even then, she is the only one whose date still has dialogue options for the player to choose from. And the options are lukewarm or just mean. I'm thinking of when Aerith asks Cloud if he likes spending time with her and the options are "No, I don't" (bruh) or "That's not it". Like why? Why did the developers choose to give us dialogue options on her date? Wasn't the point of those choices (largely) to determine who you go on a date with? At this point shouldn't I have proven that I prefer Aerith if I got her date? It's like the developers are still trying to see how YOU feel about this relationship that they sort of pushed at you.

The way I see it, there is no debate on whether or not Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship, but the developers wanted the player to decide for themselves about Cloud and Aerith. I was truly confused when I entered the fandom and learned that there was actually a serious debate. I am genuinely curious if there is something I'm missing. What scenes are there that are not influenced by the player that hint at a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith. The only thing I can think of is that Aerith offers a date for being her bodyguard and Caith Sith's fortune. Both very weak and Cloud doesn't encourage or react.

"Do you not like being with me""That's not it" means he isn't opposed to spending time with her though? Right, he is saying her assumption he doesn't want to is wrong.

I think it's really about perspective. Also the tropes involved: you have a magical pink girl asking a guy for one date, he is her body guard, she compares him to her first love, there was the dialogue option to be jealous, the girl dies and he holds her in his arms and he talks about her smile. He reaches out to her hand and it's sparkly. She is in love with him. She is described as a love rival and another girl seems to be jealous of her talking to Cloud. A fortune about their compatibility is apparently perfect. Stuff like that looks romantic. I don't really know how to say it because I've never been able to actually unsee it. I can't really be articulate about it. It looks romantic. The framing is romantic. I think they knew it looked that way and that was part of making Aerith's death hurt more and the plot twist hit harder.
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Also to make it clear because my posts have lead some to think I'm arguing something I'm not all my posts have been about the Clerith perspective. How did you get people who looked at OG or the compilation and decided CA were starcrossed lovers/soulmates is what I was asked and what I was answering. What lead to that basically based on my experience as a CA. I'm not saying back then everyone thought CA was the default. Or anything like that. Now did CAs think CA was the right answer and did many of them view CT as the underdog for years. From my observations: Yes, and from my experience until CC Zack was easily overlooked before then as a non issue.

 

[Yoru]

I have a genuine question - in what way was Cloud and Aerith's relationship ever romantic in the OG? When I first played the game, I liked Tifa and so I was extra nice to her, but I didn't go out of my way to be mean to Aerith and I got Tifa as a date at the GS without even really trying. I felt like Cloud and Aerith had a more brother/sister vibe to them. Some of you have said that the game sort of pushes Aerith in Disc 1, but I'm at a loss as to how. The game introduces the promise/water tower scene at the start and sets up the bond between Tifa and Cloud. So the sign is already there that there's something between these two.

Outside of YOU choosing certain dialogue options, what scenes in the OG are coded as romantic for Cloud and Aerith to make people perceive it that way? They also barely mention her after she dies and tbh I forgot she was even in the game half the time after Disc 1. It's true that Aerith has more affection points at the start, and therefore, it is easier to get her as a date at the GS, but even then, she is the only one whose date still has dialogue options for the player to choose from. And the options are lukewarm or just mean. I'm thinking of when Aerith asks Cloud if he likes spending time with her and the options are "No, I don't" (bruh) or "That's not it". Like why? Why did the developers choose to give us dialogue options on her date? Wasn't the point of those choices (largely) to determine who you go on a date with? At this point shouldn't I have proven that I prefer Aerith if I got her date? It's like the developers are still trying to see how YOU feel about this relationship that they sort of pushed at you.

The way I see it, there is no debate on whether or not Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship, but the developers wanted the player to decide for themselves about Cloud and Aerith. I was truly confused when I entered the fandom and learned that there was actually a serious debate. I am genuinely curious if there is something I'm missing. What scenes are there that are not influenced by the player that hint at a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith. The only thing I can think of is that Aerith offers a date for being her bodyguard and Caith Sith's fortune. Both very weak and Cloud doesn't encourage or react.

Really great summary of my thoughts. I may be biased but I always thought people made Aerith's loss too much of a thing post-CD1, when in fact she was almost ignored until her final appearance with holy. And to be frank I think the none closure of Rebirth is to make things right this time. Sure it kind of breaks the idea of living with grief from the OG (=She's dead and that's that. Move on). But pushing Cloud to remember will reinforce the pain and the loss.

 

[BoozeMan]

Exactly. Don't get me wrong Zack is amazing but the problem is they tried to sell him as a better love interest for Aerith than Cloud at a time CA's were pretty much set on Cloud as Aerith's soulmate. At a time when they hadn't actually expanded on Zack's feelings for her, when he hadn't been indicated as as important as Cloud in her story. And they did this very late. About ten years after the game released. I love him I do, but I need people to understand how Crisis Core didn't help his case in the slightest when it came to Cleriths accepting him as any viable match for Aerith.

He honestly felt like a consolation prize. "Cloud loves Tifa but here, have this. Also all your precious CA moments are now ZA moments. Enjoy!" Of course CAs were mad. I was mad too at first. Nothing before that made me consider Zack as someone I wanted Aerith to be with. And to say oh she was living similar moments with Cloud, that he had fallen through the church roof first etc felt like the biggest slap in the face.

I am sorry but it was just the worse way to show him as the true love interest. I don't think he deserved the flack but I can absolutely see where it came from.

Rebirth I can argue does a way better job of painting Zack as someone Aerith loves not because Zack in CC wasn't great but because it feels less forced. Less like "Here, you like CA but check out this guy, nice huh?

Why does Zack falling through the roof of church upset so many fans? This has always confused me. I've even seen people complain that Zack and Cloud met Aerith the same way. Which is not the case.

To me it explains her strange behaviour in OG. I mean Cloud and Aerith's first meeting is basically do you want a flower yes/no or get out of here everything is on fire (Aerith: ok) and that's it. When Cloud falls through the roof all of a sudden she's obsessed about him.

I don't know maybe I'm misremembering the OG but if I'm not it make her strange behaviour more believable to me.

 

[Stiggie]

Exactly. Don't get me wrong Zack is amazing but the problem is they tried to sell him as a better love interest for Aerith than Cloud at a time CA's were pretty much set on Cloud as Aerith's soulmate. At a time when they hadn't actually expanded on Zack's feelings for her, when he hadn't been indicated as as important as Cloud in her story. And they did this very late. About ten years after the game released. I love him I do, but I need people to understand how Crisis Core didn't help his case in the slightest when it came to Cleriths accepting him as any viable match for Aerith.

He honestly felt like a consolation prize. "Cloud loves Tifa but here, have this. Also all your precious CA moments are now ZA moments. Enjoy!" Of course CAs were mad. I was mad too at first. Nothing before that made me consider Zack as someone I wanted Aerith to be with. And to say oh she was living similar moments with Cloud, that he had fallen through the church roof first etc felt like the biggest slap in the face.

I am sorry but it was just the worse way to show him as the true love interest. I don't think he deserved the flack but I can absolutely see where it came from.

Rebirth I can argue does a way better job of painting Zack as someone Aerith loves not because Zack in CC wasn't great but because it feels less forced. Less like "Here, you like CA but check out this guy, nice huh?"

I don't really get this complaint, maybe it's because I was never CA but to me it kinda feels like you're saying "Before they showed Zack as being a proper love interest for Aerith they first should have shown him being a proper love interest for Aerith".

Once has to be the first time. If Zack totally came out of nowhere I might have some sympathy, but Aerith already said she saw Zack in Cloud in the OG, and was already shown to be chilling with Zack in the afterlife in AC, so I just don't see this "it came out of nowhere" interpretation. Sure, if you're a hardcore CA then it might have felt like that, but that's not a mistake on the companies side, you'll never be able to please hardcore CAs with any story that isn't CA so if you use that as a measuring stick then any approach that didn't cow toe to CA would constitute "a bad move".

For me, I loved CC, it was the first time I cared about Aerith and its what made me care about Aeriths story in the OG. What at first felt shallow and capricious to me suddenly actually had meaning. It's not an exaggeration to say that Aerith reliving her time with Zack through Cloud is what saved her character for me.

 

[Stiggie]

I have a genuine question - in what way was Cloud and Aerith's relationship ever romantic in the OG? When I first played the game, I liked Tifa and so I was extra nice to her, but I didn't go out of my way to be mean to Aerith and I got Tifa as a date at the GS without even really trying. I felt like Cloud and Aerith had a more brother/sister vibe to them. Some of you have said that the game sort of pushes Aerith in Disc 1, but I'm at a loss as to how. The game introduces the promise/water tower scene at the start and sets up the bond between Tifa and Cloud. So the sign is already there that there's something between these two.

Outside of YOU choosing certain dialogue options, what scenes in the OG are coded as romantic for Cloud and Aerith to make people perceive it that way? They also barely mention her after she dies and tbh I forgot she was even in the game half the time after Disc 1. It's true that Aerith has more affection points at the start, and therefore, it is easier to get her as a date at the GS, but even then, she is the only one whose date still has dialogue options for the player to choose from. And the options are lukewarm or just mean. I'm thinking of when Aerith asks Cloud if he likes spending time with her and the options are "No, I don't" (bruh) or "That's not it". Like why? Why did the developers choose to give us dialogue options on her date? Wasn't the point of those choices (largely) to determine who you go on a date with? At this point shouldn't I have proven that I prefer Aerith if I got her date? It's like the developers are still trying to see how YOU feel about this relationship that they sort of pushed at you.

The way I see it, there is no debate on whether or not Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship, but the developers wanted the player to decide for themselves about Cloud and Aerith. I was truly confused when I entered the fandom and learned that there was actually a serious debate. I am genuinely curious if there is something I'm missing. What scenes are there that are not influenced by the player that hint at a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith. The only thing I can think of is that Aerith offers a date for being her bodyguard and Caith Sith's fortune. Both very weak and Cloud doesn't encourage or react.

THANK YOU! Welcome to my personal hell for the past 27 years, I have NEVER understood this. My entire participation in this "debate" doesn't stem from a personal desire to see Cloud and Tifa happy, that's more of a result from being invested in this debate for so long. No, the reason I even argue about this in the first place is because I just DO NOT understand why there was ever an argument here. For me I just played the OG, don't even remember which date I had, had the lifestream sequence, thought "ahhh, it all started because of a lifelong love for Tifa, that's cute" saw them end the game together and had the exact same reaction as with Zidane and Garnet, or Squall and Rinoa, or Yuna and Tidus. I gave Aerith no more thought as a love interest than I did a Rikku, quistis, or Eiko. And then when I talked about it online I got people going "wtf are you talking about, there is nothing between Cloud and Tifa, Cloud loves Aerith" and I wondered if I had missed something or something.

Literally the only "romantic" gesture from Cloud to Aerith that I can think off in the entire OG is in Cosmo Canyon when he misspeaks and goes "but now I'm.....now we're here for you right?" Not exactly the biggest indication of love I've ever seen.

Like, I get going "well, there is a pink magical girl, so it looks romantic", yeah, I get that, but I don't get how that interpretation can survive the reality of "pink girl dies, childhood friend girl is unveiled to be MCs entire raison d'etre", or the subsequent more analytical second playthrough where you realize literally nothing romantic happens between Cloud and Aerith that entire game. Hell, I'd even argue that it's more reasonable these days to see Aerith as a viable love interest than it ever was in 1997.

Why does Zack falling through the roof of church upset so many fans? This has always confused me. I've even seen people complain that Zack and Cloud met Aerith the same way. Which is not the case.

To me it explains her strange behaviour in OG. I mean Cloud and Aerith's first meeting is basically do you want a flower yes/no or get out of here everything is on fire (Aerith: ok) and that's it. When Cloud falls through the roof all of a sudden she's obsessed about him.

I don't know maybe I'm misremembering the OG but if I'm not it make her strange behaviour more believable to me.

I have no idea, it's another one of those dislikes that people try to justify after the fact. As though that's so unlikely as to break suspension of disbelief, when the entire plotpoint of Cloud happening to channel the spirit of Aeriths Ex wasn't a huge coincidence to begin with. The truth is that FFVII is absolutely filled with absurd coincidences, this one is no more or less special than the others.

I'm pretty sure Cleriths did think they counted for a lot. And as I said I don't really know how to convey it because now it's just a rare argument to see. But it wasn't back then.

I never understood the obsession with values, it shows such a lack of understanding of game development to put any stock into that.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Yeah I'm not saying the majority defaulted to thinking Aerith was the main love interest. If it really was that most people agreed on one girl it wouldn't have been much of debate. People were definitely divided. It was pretty chaotic. It's just that nowadays some act like the idea of people seeing Clerith as a thing was so surprising when honestly it really wasn't farfetched people got to that conclusion, especially at the time. I think maybe it's due to looking at it in retrospect not realizing we really had very little information for long periods of time and that did affect how we viewed things.

Back then people never understood character developments and actually sometimes until now. Tifa is getting backlash saying she's too focus on a man while look at Aerith.. - sort kinda this stuff.


We met TIFA LOCKHART as member of avalanche ( Remake) although she's a childhood friend of Cloud her priority is not exactly Cloud but her revenge and shinra ( PLANET ) . She just a bit worried about Cloud because he seems not himself and wanna look after him or monitor him until he's alright.

We met AERITH GAINSBOROUGH as a flower seller and immediately took attention to Cloud as he appear like ( mannerism ) his ex bf eitherway she flirts with him and followed him, although she's the last living cetra her focus on start is not exactly her heritage or the planet but Cloud.

Aerith wont look or for put her heritage as last living cetra as a priority because it bring this a lot of pains for her ( Elmyra, Zack, her biological father and step father - all taken by Shinra ) hence her refusal or unknown refusal to focus on PLANET. ( which is supposed to be her role as last living cetra). Her focus mostly is CLOUD --> which attracts her because she reminds her of Zack

- however this is not her role ( story ) that's why most of the time she cannot see beyond the exterior of Cloud presents to her because REAL CLOUD is hidden behind with all trauma. She wont be able to understand all that trauma or pains REAL CLOUD has instead the planet is voicing out that she needs their help instead of this guy

Tifa on otherhand is focus on Avalanche and her guilt on what they're doing might cause more harm than good to people ( PLANET ) . Although Cloud is right besides her again he is not her focus most of the time and just wanted to keep an eye on this old friend to make sure he's alright.

- however just like Aerith its not her role that's why she feels short-hand or she did everything but still one got upperhand ( its not just because they're stronger ) for me its like planet is telling her you can only do so much.

As story goes by people never understood that their focus will be reverse -- Aerith will get over her fears and knows her heritage as time goes by and learn how to communicate with planet and less on Cloud's and Tifa on other hand still cares for planet but focuses on deteriorating situation of CLOUD.

Because only AERITH can communicate with planet to save it on once sephiroth has been defeated and only TIFA can see Cloud's trauma and help him see his real self to get over it.

 

[Shadowfox]

I have a genuine question - in what way was Cloud and Aerith's relationship ever romantic in the OG?

At the time, Cloud and Aerith were seen to have a lot of typical romantic tropes. The tough, cold merc and the gentle, playful woman who opens his heart. His fall through the church roof was a dramatic way to set up the possible start of a relationship. The US ad with the "love that can never be" line. Even the fact that she wore pink was brought up to assert that she was THE love interest. It was basically that people saw the tropes and just went with it without looking too close at it, nor realize how his comparatively quiet relationship with Tifa later revealed a very romantic core.

Eventually, lots of other people heard about FFVII as being the game where the main character's love interest dies and shockingly remains dead. So even newer players went into it with the idea that Aerith was the love interest and that CA were a doomed couple.

Why does Zack falling through the roof of church upset so many fans? This has always confused me. I've even seen people complain that Zack and Cloud met Aerith the same way. Which is not the case.

The loudest complaints I'd heard about Zack falling through the roof were from some CAs who felt that it was an example of Zack copying or taking things from CA, making it feel like their ship was less special and showing it to be just a clumsy copy & paste.

Similarly, some Cloud fans were also annoyed that the things that Cloud had been known to do in the OG, things that they had taken to be uniquely Cloud, were instead from Zack.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I don't really get this complaint, maybe it's because I was never CA but to me it kinda feels like you're saying "Before they showed Zack as being a proper love interest for Aerith they first should have shown him being a proper love interest for Aerith".

Once has to be the first time. If Zack totally came out of nowhere I might have some sympathy, but Aerith already said she saw Zack in Cloud in the OG, and was already shown to be chilling with Zack in the afterlife in AC, so I just don't see this "it came out of nowhere" interpretation. Sure, if you're a hardcore CA then it might have felt like that, but that's not a mistake on the companies side, you'll never be able to please hardcore CAs with any story that isn't CA so if you use that as a measuring stick then any approach that didn't cow toe to CA would constitute "a bad move".

For me, I loved CC, it was the first time I cared about Aerith and its what made me care about Aeriths story in the OG. What at first felt shallow and capricious to me suddenly actually had meaning. It's not an exaggeration to say that Aerith reliving her time with Zack through Cloud is what saved her character for me.

It's not that Zack came out of nowhere as in the first time you hear of him. It's that they established him and his relationship with Aerith was shown in detail ten years after the release of OG. No where in OG were we given the idea he was a great match for her or anything. We hardly see him and her own words sound like he left her unless you get the hidden scene in Shinra manor's basement. Which who would go thinking of that? And it wasn't even in the original game. We didn't get any real moment to get attached to Zack.

No CA played OG excited about the faceless dude Aerith first loved. They were attached to Aerith and Cloud. For ten years they were invested in Aerith with Cloud. The guide around that time, not canon but still widely used was Dismantled which talked about how Aerith loved Cloud more than Zack. The novel Lifestream White didn't mention Zack but mentioned Aerith's love for Cloud. The attachment for almost a decade was to Aerith and Cloud not Zack.

Then what do we get in 2007. Introducing Zack would have been fine but the way it went was to basically show us that Clerith wasn't special in anyway because the scenes we even associated with Aerith and Cloud were now ZA moments. Her one date line, him falling through the roof, the park. Her clothes became about him, her signature ribbon. It felt like a slap on the face. Because even if stuff like Dismantled wasn't canon SE sure let us think it meant something. SE sure put Aerith in KingdomHearts, SE sure had a romantic looking cameo for Aerith and Cloud in FF Tactics. SE sure plastered Aerith everywhere they could and made her arc seem special. So in our minds oh so SE wants us to see the bonds of these characters.

We felt in lack of other terms played.

Imagine if for years you're in invested in CT then they add a game where Tifa's got a watertower scene with another guy.

How would you feel? Then on top of it they decided to tie everything about Tifa to that man. Her personality her clothes etc.

That's how it felt. However Zack was nice enough a guy that Aerith fans found a new ship. Zerith is a beautiful ship. But frustratingly enough that game didn't show too many moments between them. He is on missions seperated from her. Then she writes him 98 letters because she was so into him but we never got time to see why because they really did a timeskip instead of showing their relationship fully grow. The rest of screentime was given to the weirdest B plot with fighting Genesis and clones.
Aerith also had little screen time herself etc. And Genesis is annoying.

So yeah not many CA fans would like Crisis Core even if many did come to accept Zerith eventually.

But even then in KH2 Zack is a kid flirting with Aqua. What was that. What impression where we supposed to get about this guy Aerith loved and were supposed to accept.

It makes sense CAs at first would be put off. Just because something is canon doesn't mean it will make them happy. Zerith is fine as a couple but how it was presented was done pretty dirty in terms of screentime. And Zack was sidelined by SE for like ten years.

I think in terms of establishing Zack and Aerith's bond Rebirth has been a lot better. It's not only very clear about her feelings for him, his feelings for her but we see him as the sweetest person. We see the bond and connection between them. We see WHY Aerith our beloved character would write him 98 letters, would wait for him, would use his catchphrase. Something we definitely didn't see before as clearly. We also see reasons to be more attached to his character.

Like I respect writers and canon but there is a thing also called understanding your audience too. You don't just let your audience for ten years think their fave female character has this super special arc then suddenly go no everything you love about her is due to this guy and expect them to just happily go "OK". I love Zerith but yes at first I was definitely like what is this?? And I know if the shoe was on the other foot CTs would definitely understand what I mean.
Thankfully you didn't have to go through that.

 

[Yoru]

Similarly, some Cloud fans were also annoyed that the things that Cloud had been known to do in the OG, things that they had taken to be uniquely Cloud, were instead from Zack.

The irony.

 

[Sacky]

It's not that Zack came out of nowhere as in the first time you hear of him. It's that they established him and his relationship with Aerith was shown in detail ten years after the release of OG. No where in OG were we given the idea he was a great match for her or anything we hardly see him and her own words sound like he left her unless you get the hidden scene in Shinra manor's basement. Which who would go thinking of that? And it wasn't even in the original game. We didn't get any real moment to get attached to Zack.

No CA played OG excited about the faceless dude Aerith first loved. They were attached to Aerith and Cloud. For ten years they were invested in Aerith with Cloud. The guide around that time, not canon but still widely used was Dismantled which talked about how Aerith loved Cloud more than Zack. The novel Lifestream White didn't mention Zack. The attachment was to Aerith and Cloud not Zack.

Then what do we get in 2007. Introducing Zack would have been fine but the way it went was to basically show us that Clerith wasn't special in anyway because the scenes we even associated with Aerith and Cloud were now ZA moments. Her one date line, him falling through the roof, the park. Her clothes became about him, her signature ribbon. It felt like a slap on the face. Because even if stuff like Dismantled wasn't canon SE sure let us think it meant something. SE sure put Aerith in KingdomHearts, SE sure had a romantic looking cameo for Aerith and Cloud in FF Tactics. SE sure plastered Aerith everywhere they could and made her arc seem special. So in our minds oh so SE wants us to see the bonds of these characters.

We felt in lack of other terms played.

Imagine if for years you're in invested in CT then they add a game where Tifa's got a watertower scene with another guy.

How would you feel? Then on top of it they decided to tie everything about Tifa to that man. Her personality her clothes etc.

That's how it felt. However Zack was nice enough a guy that Aerith fans found a new ship. Zerith is a beautiful ship. But frustratingly enough that game didn't show too many moments between them. He is on missions seperated from her. Then she writes him 98 letters because she was so into him but we never got time to see why because they really did a timeskip showing their relationship fully grow.
Aerith also had little screen time herself etc. And Genesis is annoying.

So yeah not many CA fans would like Crisis Core even if many did come to accept Zerith eventually.

But even then in KH2 Zack is a kid flirting with Aqua. What was that. What impression where we supposed to get about this guy Aerith loved and were supposed to accept.

It makes sense CAs at first would be put off. Just because something is canon doesn't mean it will make them happy. Zerith is fine as a couple but how it was presented was done pretty dirty in terms of screentime. And Zack was sidelined by SE for like ten years.

I think in terms of establishing Zack and Aerith's bond Rebirth has been a lot better. It's not only very clear about her feelings for him, his feelings for her but we see him as the sweetest person. We see the bond and connection between them. We see WHY Aerith our beloved character would write him 98 letters, would wait for him, would use his catchphrase. Something we definitely didn't see before as clearly. We also see reasons to be more attached to his character.

Like I respect writers and canon but there is a thing also called understanding your audience too. You don't just let your audience for ten years think their fave female character has this super special arc then suddenly go no everything you love about her is due to this guy and expect them to just happily go ok. I love Zerith but yes at first I was definitely like what is this?? And I know if the shoe was on the other foot CTs would definitely understand what I mean.
Thankfully you didn't have to go through that.

yeah i understand the frustration CA's have a lot of the LTD is on the devs not giving a clear answer or even when they make it clear
advent not fully confirming it. Rebirth seems to have settled this but part 3 is where its really going to be fully settled. However it has been 27 years so its gonna make a lot of people really mad

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

yeah i understand the frustration CA's have a lot of the LTD is on the devs not giving a clear answer or even when they make it clear
advent not fully confirming it. Rebirth seems to have settled this but part 3 is where its really going to be fully settled. However it has been 27 years so its gonna make a lot of people really mad

Yeah don't get me wrong. I'm not in any way trying to bash Zerith. I love Zerith and what I have seen in Rebirth if they give us a Zerith reunion scene I would be all for it. I have no problems with it.

But that doesn't change that SE dropped the ball with how they went with introducing Zack, how they sidelined him for ten years, whatever the heck his cameo in KH2 was. Doesn't change the fact that they still didn't give him and Aerith much screentime.

How before then they didn't say CA was canon but they sure let us think it was romantic and super special for quite a bit. Then "oh actually here is the dude Aerith loved. Here we took what you love from your ship everything you thought was special was actually due to this guy. And here is Genesis. Enjoy." (*side note Zack was awesome in Last Order but that's not canon sadly is ignored by SE also Aerith isnt in it )

And if people were upset about Crisis Core like I was at first I 100% don't blame them for their feelings towards it. Now we basically have no choice but to accept it but at least we now get more expansion on the relationship. At least we really get to see the full appeal.

 

[Stiggie]

It's not that Zack came out of nowhere as in the first time you hear of him. It's that they established him and his relationship with Aerith was shown in detail ten years after the release of OG. No where in OG were we given the idea he was a great match for her or anything we hardly see him and her own words sound like he left her unless you get the hidden scene in Shinra manor's basement. Which who would go thinking of that? And it wasn't even in the original game. We didn't get any real moment to get attached to Zack.

No CA played OG excited about the faceless dude Aerith first loved. They were attached to Aerith and Cloud. For ten years they were invested in Aerith with Cloud. The guide around that time, not canon but still widely used was Dismantled which talked about how Aerith loved Cloud more than Zack. The novel Lifestream White didn't mention Zack. The attachment was to Aerith and Cloud not Zack.

Then what do we get in 2007. Introducing Zack would have been fine but the way it went was to basically show us that Clerith wasn't special in anyway because the scenes we even associated with Aerith and Cloud were now ZA moments. Her one date line, him falling through the roof, the park. Her clothes became about him, her signature ribbon. It felt like a slap on the face. Because even if stuff like Dismantled wasn't canon SE sure let us think it meant something. SE sure put Aerith in KingdomHearts, SE sure had a romantic looking cameo for Aerith and Cloud in FF Tactics. SE sure plastered Aerith everywhere they could and made her arc seem special. So in our minds oh so SE wants us to see the bonds of these characters.

We felt in lack of other terms played.

Imagine if for years you're in invested in CT then they add a game where Tifa's got a watertower scene with another guy.

How would you feel? Then on top of it they decided to tie everything about Tifa to that man. Her personality her clothes etc.

That's how it felt. However Zack was nice enough a guy that Aerith fans found a new ship. Zerith is a beautiful ship. But frustratingly enough that game didn't show too many moments between them. He is on missions seperated from her. Then she writes him 98 letters because she was so into him but we never got time to see why because they really did a timeskip instead of showing their relationship fully grow. The rest of screentime was given to the weirdest B plot with fighting Genesis and clones.
Aerith also had little screen time herself etc. And Genesis is annoying.

So yeah not many CA fans would like Crisis Core even if many did come to accept Zerith eventually.

But even then in KH2 Zack is a kid flirting with Aqua. What was that. What impression where we supposed to get about this guy Aerith loved and were supposed to accept.

It makes sense CAs at first would be put off. Just because something is canon doesn't mean it will make them happy. Zerith is fine as a couple but how it was presented was done pretty dirty in terms of screentime. And Zack was sidelined by SE for like ten years.

I think in terms of establishing Zack and Aerith's bond Rebirth has been a lot better. It's not only very clear about her feelings for him, his feelings for her but we see him as the sweetest person. We see the bond and connection between them. We see WHY Aerith our beloved character would write him 98 letters, would wait for him, would use his catchphrase. Something we definitely didn't see before as clearly. We also see reasons to be more attached to his character.

Like I respect writers and canon but there is a thing also called understanding your audience too. You don't just let your audience for ten years think their fave female character has this super special arc then suddenly go no everything you love about her is due to this guy and expect them to just happily go "OK". I love Zerith but yes at first I was definitely like what is this?? And I know if the shoe was on the other foot CTs would definitely understand what I mean.
Thankfully you didn't have to go through that.

I kinda get that, I mean, when Aerith sat on the water tower in Nibelheim I definitely felt some measure of "how dare you stand where she stood!", and I absolutely hate the whole "no promises to keep" thing, but Crisis Core also had Zack make a promise to Aerith underneath the water tower, and that never bothered me despite it essentially also copying something that's supposed to be between Cloud and Tifa.

But the reason being upset about it feels so hollow to me is simply that Cloud mimicking Zack, and Aerith seeing Zack in Cloud was always a canonical part of the OG, so when a prequel then shows it more explicitly it just makes me think "what did you expect?".

Similarly, some Cloud fans were also annoyed that the things that Cloud had been known to do in the OG, things that they had taken to be uniquely Cloud, were instead from Zack.

The irony.

Essentially this.
Yeah, I know it wasn't elaborated on too much in the OG....but nothing was. It's a pretty barebones game that you run through pretty quickly. The bond between Aerith and Zack might not have been elaborated on much, but neither was the bond between Cloud and Aerith. They meet, have a date, she gets kidnapped, they talk in gongaga and cosmo canyon, another date, asks about future, gets beaten up, dies.
The vast majority of this bond is what we imagined, inspired by things like what you said, her being a bubbly pink girl, him being the brooding MC, etc.

What we knew about Zack was that Aerith talked about him during her first date, was upset at his death in Gongaga, talked about him again during their second date and mentioning how she saw Zack again in Cloud. We then find out that the reason she saw him in Cloud was that Cloud was literally pretending to be him, and we see Zack Saving Cloud and Talking about Aerith. That's more than enough to allow the player to imagine a bond between Aerith and Zack, especially considering that the implication that Clouds bond with Aerith was in some way a reflection of her bond with Zack was already there.

Again, I get why they're upset, I just think they have no one to blame but their own assumptions. Ultimately I just find it hard to sympathize with the complaint that the prequel about a game where Cloud acts like Zack, shows that the things Cloud did were similar to Zack.