SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Sacky]

Well, you can't blame him when it's a younger self that doesn't know Aerith yet. And it's kinda the whole point with Zack, he's a flirty guy that meet Aerith and she's becoming his only concern (love wise)

And again. KH are great games, but they fucking assassinated Cloud character for years. So... let's not bring it in the FF7 lore please. I'm begging you lol.

(but I understand what you're saying)

Elena was eating Sea salt ice cream i fear its jenover

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Well, you can't blame him when it's a younger self that doesn't know Aerith yet. And it's kinda the whole point with Zack, he's a flirty guy that meet Aerith and she's becoming his only concern (love wise)

And again. KH are great games, but they fucking assassinated Cloud character for years. So... let's not bring it in the FF7 lore please. I'm begging you lol.

(but I understand what you're saying)

Yeah the point being Aerith became that special girl to him. The one that made him serious and I love that but there is no indication of that scene because Aerith and him don't interact. It's another example how for years when it came to Aerith's appearances Zack was conspicuously absent.

And yeah it's not canon or related and I never use KH as evidence for anything because it is not. But it does present the characters to fans so we see them and enjoy them in a fun setting. And in comparison we have Aerith interacting with Cloud. That's what we see. So it still affects the impressions CAs got about where they should put their focus.

And it didn't help dispel the he's a flirt who wasn't serious about Aerith allegations.

Case in point though : for YEARS was Zack was sidelined and done dirty by SE.

I still think Rebirth is really doing justice in ways SE had not given him in the past. And I hope they continue to give him justice and don't mess this up.

And I think it terms of his relationship with Aerith I hope they get a satisfying conclusion which is a long time coming. If I can't have CA I don't mind Aerith being happy with Zack. But give them justice please.

 

[Yoru]

Elena was eating Sea salt ice cream i fear its jenover

Sephiroth is Hojo's Nobody.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

At the time, Cloud and Aerith were seen to have a lot of typical romantic tropes. The tough, cold merc and the gentle, playful woman who opens his heart. His fall through the church roof was a dramatic way to set up the possible start of a relationship. The US ad with the "love that can never be" line. Even the fact that she wore pink was brought up to assert that she was THE love interest. It was basically that people saw the tropes and just went with it without looking too close at it, nor realize how his comparatively quiet relationship with Tifa later revealed a very romantic core.

Eventually, lots of other people heard about FFVII as being the game where the main character's love interest dies and shockingly remains dead. So even newer players went into it with the idea that Aerith was the love interest and that CA were a doomed couple.



The loudest complaints I'd heard about Zack falling through the roof were from some CAs who felt that it was an example of Zack copying or taking things from CA, making it feel like their ship was less special and showing it to be just a clumsy copy & paste.

Similarly, some Cloud fans were also annoyed that the things that Cloud had been known to do in the OG, things that they had taken to be uniquely Cloud, were instead from Zack.

Thank you. I couldn't articulate it because it's just one of those things that doesn't require much thought to me.
It looked very romantic in the game to me and SE didn't do anything to stop me from thinking it was romantic and on the contrary the marketting encouraged me to buy in, CA fanservice was definitely a thing in spin offs and merchandise and etc.

And so I thought it was romantic lol.

And I don't think at the time before ACC before Ultimanias much was indicating that I should think otherwise, personally.

And I really don't blame someone who sees those tropes on the surface and sees romantic framing and thinks it's romantic. It's not surprising we would. In any other story we could have a similar conclusion if you put in CA story moments and tropes and it really wouldn't be so strange to think so.

 

[Stiggie]

I always found this really weird. Even in Remake she barely reacts to seeing Cloud again. After seeing him fall to his supposed death earlier in Sector 5, you'd think she would react a lot more strongly to seeing Cloud again instead of just saying "Cloud you're alright" in a fairly casual tone. This is partially i guess fixed with Intermission where she is shown wanting to find any leads to Cloud surviving, but i wish the actual scene was handled a bit different.

Honestly I just think she was already under the assumption that he was alive, maybe a broken bone or two, but not dead, partially because Cloud even says "this aint the end of the line for you, or me".

 

[Yoru]

Honestly I just think she was already under the assumption that he was alive, maybe a broken bone or two, but not dead, partially because Cloud even says "this aint the end of the line for you, or me".

The more reason to search for him... or sending someone if they're struggling with the Don situation. it's not as if they weren't aware of where he fell. Midgar geography is pretty simple lol.

But it was a minor comment to play along the "put yourself in the other person's shoes" when we were talking about CA/CT debates.

 

[Hellenic]

100% true. Kingdom Hearts 2 was insane for Tifa popularity. Never understood why to be honest, but a ton of people became fan of her with this game and discovered FF7 after.

Hey she kicked ass in the few scenes she did appear in that, so probably that.

 

[Stiggie]

I think the difference is even if it was brief and barebones we SEE Cloud interact with Aerith.

We grow attached as we go on the journey with them. But Zack was sidelined we barely see him we don't see him interact with Aerith even in a flashback. If you don't find the Shinra manor scene which again was not in the original release. You don't even really see him instead of a glimpse. You hear about him but it's not enough to form a connection.

The OG scene in Gonagaga is actually very short and gives the impression she isn't that upset because she's talking about him probably finding some other girl. Like yes we should catch on she was in denial but the game doesn't really give us an indication to actually think this. And the moment turns more into a CA moment where we get a dialogue option for Cloud to be "jealous."

It really wasn't super clear. And I think we've come to these conclusions about Aerith's arc because now we actually have a lot more information than we did in 1997. Where as I said in 1997 the company had no problem letting us think Aerith and Cloud were romantic. Even if they weren't. It looked like they were so of course CAs would think Aerith's love for Cloud was the main focus and not be paying attention to this other guy. The novel also talks about Aerith's feelings for Cloud. Zack is completely absent. So what did we conclude?
"Huh I think Aerith loves Cloud." And it was a logical conclusion that that was where our focus was.

Then when we get Zack on screen with Aerith finally he is sadly sidelined even in his own game for other stuff and doesnt get much screentime with her. I mean, at least the brief moments we see them. But a lot of them felt like copy and paste from CA not unique or special. And to add insult to injury he flirts with Aqua in KH2 instead of having some nice scene with Aerith like CA (WHY??) so our impression of him wasn't the best on top of his lack of screentime.

Also it was less that Cloud was copying Zack and more that they also made Aerith's arc tied to Zack so much it included her clothes, her one date catchphrase, her ribbon. Nothing in OG indicated these things weren't unique to her.

So yeah for me I think Rebirth is finally giving some justice to what they introduced in CC. The ending scene in CC was beautiful Zack thinking of Aerith as his last thought, him building her a wagon and several other sweet moments but Rebirth is picking up where they dropped the ball.

Edit: Elaborated for clarity but yeah

I wouldn't take kingdom hearts as meaning anything, there's a reason those aren't canon to FFVII. I do wish that the overall story of CC was better, but the parts between Zack and Aerith were my favorite part of it, and had much the same effect that you spoke of concerning the OG. It allowed me to fill in a lot of the other moments seeing as it supposedly takes place over the course of about 1.5 years I think. But what to me perhaps might be the strongest scene in the entirety, the thing that rang most recognizably true, is the scene where Zack is sitting in Aeriths church crying, and her just holding him.

The idea that Zack just went there to have her presence near as he mourned spoke volumes to me, it felt like the exactly the sort of thing many men would do, not necessarily voicing the specifics of what they're going through but just finding comfort in the proximity of the woman they love. And then when she held him like that, it just became one of my most telling romantic scenes in final fantasy period.

I never get the "now her clothes aren't her own anymore" line of thinking. It presupposes that people should come into existence fully formed, and that if something is the result of past experiences it somehow isn't "you" anymore. If the ribbon had been a gift to Aerith from Ifalna would anyone have gone "now her ribbon isn't unique to her anymore"? Why is Zack any different.

Honestly, the thing that bothered me most in Crisis Core concerning that sort of stuff is that it made the Buster sword effectively Angeals rather than Zacks, which is what I always believed.

 

[Yoru]

Hey she kicked ass in the few scenes she did appear in that, so probably that.

The Queen kicks asses in every medium she appears. That's why she's the best.

AC Church fight is renting free in my head for the past 19 years

 

[liuliuliu]

Aerith’s attachment to cloud doesn’t eqaul to Cloud’s attachment to Aerith automatically though. Aerith can love cloud not Zack, but the game never shows Cloud reciprocates her feeling?

 

[overheat28]

View attachment 15344

Lmao has anyone seen this? I didnt do much of Aerith's side quest nor focus on them I guess this one either slip on my playthrough or I didnt bother reading ( sorry ) Goodness Aerith does belong in Gongaga #Zerith coded

Yes, I noticed this too. Devs aren't being subtle at all, imo.

Anyone not blinkered by 27 years of headcanon can see this. They had her literally making soup with Cissnei for the Fairs in that sidequest. I mean, come on.....

 

[tenabrus]

Aerith’s attachment to cloud doesn’t eqaul to Cloud’s attachment to Aerith automatically though. Aerith can love cloud not Zack, but the game never shows Cloud reciprocates her feeling?

Maybe not love--I actually think Rebirth shies away from having even Aerith call it love on her part--but I believe he thinks romantically of her. I think, if you cut Tifa out of the remake games entirely, no one would fail to believe that Aerith was the love interest. You would look at the moments of him being dazzled by her, jealous, protective, sweet, etc, and say "That's an action hero acting cute towards his love interest".

But, would he if he had his mind back? That's always been the question to me. We know the "real" Cloud loves Tifa, but in the OG, we'll never know about Aerith.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I wouldn't take kingdom hearts as meaning anything, there's a reason those aren't canon to FFVII. I do wish that the overall story of CC was better, but the parts between Zack and Aerith were my favorite part of it, and had much the same effect that you spoke of concerning the OG. It allowed me to fill in a lot of the other moments seeing as it supposedly takes place over the course of about 1.5 years I think. But what to me perhaps might be the strongest scene in the entirety, the thing that rang most recognizably true, is the scene where Zack is sitting in Aeriths church crying, and her just holding him.

The idea that Zack just went there to have her presence near as he mourned spoke volumes to me, it felt like the exactly the sort of thing many men would do, not necessarily voicing the specifics of what they're going through but just finding comfort in the proximity of the woman they love. And then when she held him like that, it just became one of my most telling romantic scenes in final fantasy period.

I never get the "now her clothes aren't her own anymore" line of thinking. It presupposes that people should come into existence fully formed, and that if something is the result of past experiences it somehow isn't "you" anymore. If the ribbon had been a gift to Aerith from Ifalna would anyone have gone "now her ribbon isn't unique to her anymore"? Why is Zack any different.

Honestly, the thing that bothered me most in Crisis Core concerning that sort of stuff is that it made the Buster sword effectively Angeals rather than Zacks, which is what I always believed.

I don't really take KH seriously but it wouldn't have killed them to have Zack and Aerith interact.

I'm not against the Zerith scenes in this game. They're very sweet as I said. Him going to church to mourn is beautiful. But then it cuts away to a two year timeskip afterwards. They gave great scenes but then he is seperated from her again. They have beautiful rare moments. But I don't know maybe it's too rare. Aerith felt like she was just kinda there in the background for most of it. I would have liked if maybe the game had let us visit her in her church and see extra cutscenes or something between missions or if she would call him throughout not just the end.

I think and not you, but CTs might see it as oh you should be happy Aerith has a love interest. Why can't you enjoy that?

I get it. But it's again just one of those things. Where this is not what we were invested in or attached to for ten years prior.

Aerith is a character that was considered her own independent sassy flirty confident woman and suddenly everything about her is about a man or so it seems. That is how it felt. She still has her sassy moments ordering him to build her a new wagon, good for her but then she is regulated to just waiting around for him. So on top of that making her clothes and ribbon and actions in OG also all about him....It's just very different than if it were from Ilfana. Suddenly it seemed everything she did was about Zack, as I said including her clothes. I saw a joke that she can't even have an umbrella to herself because Zack uses her joke weapon even. Nothing felt in CC like it was truly about her except maybe her flower wagon. I don't think she actually needed redeeming. It was nice to see a woman be confident about her feelings and living in the moment. They could have explained her behavior without making Zack her raisdon de etre.

Also I think it may be matter of taste but I'm happily married and I hate love stories where a woman is so into a man that's her entire personality. I'm very close to my husband but not every thing about me is about him and vice versa. In fiction this is more common and it drives me nuts. People are unique and seperate individuals even when in a relationship. Like Aerith even selling flowers was Zack's idea.

Aerith being influenced by Zack is totally fine. Him buying her a gift, also fine. It's sweet even that he was so impactful in her life.

But it gave the impression nothing was hers. She had very little to start with because she dies in disk 1 but in CC she has even less. And it's about a man. A man she is seperated from for most of the game no less. So we barely get the payoff of them being together.

Again if it had been Tifa in place of Aerith that had this spin off prequel and suddenly everything about her was about another man you would understand that line of thinking.

Again for clarity and everyone reading. I'm not trying to be anti Zerith because the Zerith parts were beautiful. The problem imo isn't Zerith at all...it's the execution of their story in the game itself and the handling of Zack prior to CC and Aerith in CC.

 

[Yoru]

Aerith is a character that was considered her own independent sassy flirty confident woman and suddenly everything about her is about a man. She still has her sassy moments ordering him to build her a new wagon, good for her but then she is regulated to just waiting around for him. So on top of that making her clothes and ribbon and actions in OG also all about him....It's just very different than if it were from Ilfana. Suddenly everything she did was about Zack, as I said including her clothes. I saw a joke that she can't even have an umbrella to herself because Zack uses her joke weapon even. Nothing felt in CC like it was truly about her except maybe her flower wagon. I don't think she actually needed redeeming. It was nice to see a woman be confident about her feelings and living in the moment. They could have explained her behavior without making Zack her raisdon de etre.

Also I think it may be matter of taste but I'm happily married and I hate love stories where a woman is so into a man that's her entire personality. People are unique and seperate individuals even when in a relationship. Like Aerith even selling flowers was Zack's idea.

Nothing was hers.

Again if it had been Tifa in place of Aerith that had this spin off prequel and suddenly everything about her was about another man you would understand that line of thinking.

I get what you're saying, but it's kinda what the extreme branch of CA wants. Aerith is kinda ultra focused on Cloud in OG and with Remake/Rebirth (let's not talk about NPTK) and some want/think she'll replace Tifa on the LS. I think it's a bit hypocritical to blame Zack for the end of Aerith independence when suddenly it's no longer a problem with Cloud.

Again, I'm not targeting you, just speaking in general.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I get what you're saying, but it's kinda what the extreme branch of CA wants. Aerith is kinda ultra focused on Cloud in OG and with Remake/Rebirth (let's not talk about NPTK) and some want/think she'll replace Tifa on the LS. I think it's a bit hypocritical to blame Zack for the end of Aerith independence when suddenly it's no longer a problem with Cloud.

Again, I'm not targeting you, just speaking in general.

Yeah none of that is what I want. I hate the extremist interpretation of everything Aerith does must be about Cloud just as much.

But I need you to understand also it's not just the extremists that feel the way I just described about Aerith in Crisis Core. And regular fans vision of CA is not the same as extremists.

I think maybe CC haters exaggerate at points because her personality isn't completely ruined she still keeps some of her sass. As I said we get to see different sides to her. It's a good thing because it gives her depth. And it's not the end of the world that Zack buys her a ribbon. Zerith is not a bad thing desite them both being done dirty in terms of screentime.

But

It's just the culmination of everything being about just him. That's the issue. She doesn't do much in CC that isn't about him then she just waits in the background, sometimes she sells flowers..And I get why they'd be mad.

 

[cgnVirtue]

I always found this really weird. Even in Remake she barely reacts to seeing Cloud again. After seeing him fall to his supposed death earlier in Sector 5, you'd think she would react a lot more strongly to seeing Cloud again instead of just saying "Cloud you're alright" in a fairly casual tone. This is partially i guess fixed with Intermission where she is shown wanting to find any leads to Cloud surviving, but i wish the actual scene was handled a bit different.

I went back and rewatched the carriage scene and I retroactively was upset like “TIFA HE COULD HAVE DIED????”
But I guess, as I think was mentioned here before, Tifa just has that much faith in him at that point that I don’t think she truly believes that he’d die on her like that. I never finished Intergrade so I didn’t know she had scenes where she was looking for him even a little. But I think at that point too, Cloud has already told her that he’s staying in Midgar to keep his promise to her? Which probably just strengthens her faith in him, especially since he remembers after all those years apart. At this point she believes that he made it into SOLDIER and everything too. Not long before this he just stumbles into Midgar and they find each other again, like it was fate. So I guess I can’t blame her for having that much faith in him lol.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Aerith’s attachment to cloud doesn’t eqaul to Cloud’s attachment to Aerith automatically though. Aerith can love cloud not Zack, but the game never shows Cloud reciprocates her feeling?

I never said it automatically did?

I said people grew attached to the bond between them. And so that's where their focus was. And it makes sense they'd be focusing on that instead of Zack at the time who was mostly just mentioned not explicitly shown and was absent from a lot of media until Last Order was added into ACC but wasn't there in AC prior and then we fully got to meet him in Crisis Core.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah none of that is what I want. I hate the extremist interpretation of everything Aerith does must be about Cloud just as much.

But I need you to understand also it's not just the extremists that feel the way I just described about Aerith in Crisis Core. And regular fans vision of CA is not the same as extremists.

I think maybe CC haters exaggerate at points because her personality isn't completely ruined she still keeps some of her sass. As I said we get to see different sides to her. It's a good thing because it gives her depth. And it's not the end of the world that Zack buys her a ribbon. Zerith is not a bad thing desite them both being done dirty in terms of screentime.

But

It's just the culmination of everything being about just him. That's the issue. She doesn't do much in CC that isn't about him then she just waits in the background, sometimes she sells flowers..And I get why they'd be mad.

Such a complicated situation.

That's precisely with the added context of Crisis Core that I learned to love Aerith when I couldn't stand her in OG.

I feel so sorry for the devs. Must be so hard to make every corner of the fandom happy. FF7 is such a big thing, with differents fans, so many wishes.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Maybe not love--I actually think Rebirth shies away from having even Aerith call it love on her part--but I believe he thinks romantically of her. I think, if you cut Tifa out of the remake games entirely, no one would fail to believe that Aerith was the love interest. You would look at the moments of him being dazzled by her, jealous, protective, sweet, etc, and say "That's an action hero acting cute towards his love interest".

But, would he if he had his mind back? That's always been the question to me. We know the "real" Cloud loves Tifa, but in the OG, we'll never know about Aerith.

Once again thank you. And this was basically my thoughts as well. Of course we aren't gonna cut out Tifa. But let's pretend this game didn't have her in it for one sec: no one would be questioning CA because yes it looks romantic.

The issue is not that CA doesn't look romantic. It's that the devs planned it so Tifa would stay with Cloud in the end after Aerith exits similar to a transfer student through their own words. And part 2 was all about a reveal of her arc with Cloud and their romantic story.

This doesn't suddenly make CA like siblings or make CAs delusional for reading romance in the first part. It's just about how the story goes and progresses and what gets revealed.

And we can't just disregard either of these bonds. We can't just pretend Tifa's arc doesn't exist at all, that her childhood promise with Cloud is a throwaway, we can't disregard his secret wish and their feelings for eachother, or put her down and pretend she is a bullly to reduce her importance. Which is my main problem with extremists.

And at the same time as we can't pretend Aerith and Cloud look completely platonic and siblingly. We can't sit there and call anyone crazy for reading them as romantic in the moment. We can't sit there and disregard Aerith's feelings or importance for him either that they have a special bond in the end regardless of if he reciprocates romantically.

Same with her feelings and story with Zack once it's revealed honestly.

If more people could just see that and discuss the story we are given instead of trying to disprove eachother all the time maybe the LTD would be less miserable.

 

[Jane Fane]

LMAO It's a full circle moment if I ever saw one. For years, Aerith and/or Tifa were too Cloud-centric, then Cloud was too Tifa-centric, then Aerith was too Zack-centric, and now Rebirth has completed this 27-year circle jerk with Zack is too Aerith-centric.

 

[Ryushikaze]

@Ryushikaze But you're a Cloti right? I was talking about Cleriths. How Cleriths did have the idea of player choice but later on that it kinda shifted to arguing about a canon route and story points and less and less about point values (thank Gaia). Because I was asked how could Cleriths see OG as player choice. Hmm maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I am C/T, yes. But the "it's player choice" I would say was a later defensive argumenty. Initially the C/A crowd, especially the people who would go on to comprise the site disparagingly referred to as pink hell were adamant that that C/A was the one true story. I can only speak for my own experiences, but "it's up to player choice" was a reaction to strong narrative arguments regarding C/A, along with many other arguments like "He used to love Tifa but that changed and now you get to decide" but these arguments were essentially a "Clerith of the gaps" argument.

Also it was not particularly clear you were talking about just CA arguments previously. Thank you for clearing that up.

I remember back then the fights about those values. And from what I was saw there wasn't really widespread pushback against doing so. People usually just argued back with other values, even if yes not everyone believed the numbers counted. I'm pretty sure Cleriths did think they counted for a lot. And as I said I don't really know how to convey it because now it's just a rare argument to see. But it wasn't back then.

Cleriths argued that Aerith having a "head start" in point values was an indicator that she was the destined pair, IIRC.
But yeah, no one ever considered the implications of player choice meaning you could also "choose" Barret or Yuffie. It was always between T and A.

Though recently I did have a random person in my mentions trying to convince me we can choose to see or not see Tifa's HA HW scene therefore it's player choice and talking about values. Even though I literally never brought it up. It was nostalgic in a weird way....

This is actually a very odd way to look at it. For a comparison it's like arguing that the Hojo fight in chapter 6 is "optional" because you can choose to fight with one set of allies or the other but not both and thus neither actually happened.

I have a genuine question - in what way was Cloud and Aerith's relationship ever romantic in the OG? When I first played the game, I liked Tifa and so I was extra nice to her, but I didn't go out of my way to be mean to Aerith and I got Tifa as a date at the GS without even really trying. I felt like Cloud and Aerith had a more brother/sister vibe to them. Some of you have said that the game sort of pushes Aerith in Disc 1, but I'm at a loss as to how. The game introduces the promise/water tower scene at the start and sets up the bond between Tifa and Cloud. So the sign is already there that there's something between these two.

The trick with the affection value shell game is that you can choose to say nice or mean things to Aerith, but you can't actually choose to say anything mean to Tifa. So it's possible to choose to be nice and occasionally even flirty with Aerith in player dialogue, but regardless of what you do, absolutely nothing changes in the story after Aerith dies, regardless of whether her AV is 5, 50, or 500. All the game gives a shit about re: those AV is Tifa's.

The loudest complaints I'd heard about Zack falling through the roof were from some CAs who felt that it was an example of Zack copying or taking things from CA, making it feel like their ship was less special and showing it to be just a clumsy copy & paste.

I mean, that was sort of the point. They were elaborating on how in the OG, Aerith latched onto stuff in Cloud's cool persona that reminded her of Zack.

Similarly, some Cloud fans were also annoyed that the things that Cloud had been known to do in the OG, things that they had taken to be uniquely Cloud, were instead from Zack.

If that was the case back then- I don't remember it but I'll take your word- it certainly doesn't seem to be the case now.

It's not that Zack came out of nowhere as in the first time you hear of him. It's that they established him and his relationship with Aerith was shown in detail ten years after the release of OG. No where in OG were we given the idea he was a great match for her or anything. We hardly see him and her own words sound like he left her unless you get the hidden scene in Shinra manor's basement. Which who would go thinking of that? And it wasn't even in the original game. We didn't get any real moment to get attached to Zack.

That scene was in the original North America Release. It wasn't in the JP release but there's a reason they released the international edition ASAP. Original Japanese FF7 was missing things. Like the optional superbosses and Zack.

SE sure put Aerith in KingdomHearts, SE sure had a romantic looking cameo for Aerith and Cloud in FF Tactics. SE sure plastered Aerith everywhere they could and made her arc seem special. So in our minds oh so SE wants us to see the bonds of these characters.

If you look at that Tactics Cameo, it's the opposite of romantic. "Hey, do I know you? You look like someone else. Anyways peace out, gotta go find my sword."
What is very interesting about that cameo is that it seems that that's a Cloud from perhaps right as the death happened. I bring this up because Cloud may have splintered himself in Rebirth by creating a forked timeline where he does save her. As per the Terrierverse having two Clouds, there is a Cloud otherwise unaccounted for. Maybe that's where the second one fell to.

We felt in lack of other terms played.

Imagine if for years you're in invested in CT then they add a game where Tifa's got a watertower scene with another guy.

How would you feel? Then on top of it they decided to tie everything about Tifa to that man. Her personality her clothes etc.

That's how it felt. However Zack was nice enough a guy that Aerith fans found a new ship. Zerith is a beautiful ship. But frustratingly enough that game didn't show too many moments between them. He is on missions seperated from her. Then she writes him 98 letters because she was so into him but we never got time to see why because they really did a timeskip instead of showing their relationship fully grow. The rest of screentime was given to the weirdest B plot with fighting Genesis and clones.
Aerith also had little screen time herself etc. And Genesis is annoying.

I can see where you're coming from, but even in the OG Aerith compared Cloud to her first love. She even said Cloud was "just like" him at one point. So it makes sense there would be major narrative callbacks there, especially because Aerith is a doomed heroine, and even before Crisis Core came out we had indicators that she was holding onto the past even as she was moving forward. Even in Maiden who Travels, she calls forth Zack by trying to think of the things that made Cloud uniquely himself.

I always found this really weird. Even in Remake she barely reacts to seeing Cloud again. After seeing him fall to his supposed death earlier in Sector 5, you'd think she would react a lot more strongly to seeing Cloud again instead of just saying "Cloud you're alright" in a fairly casual tone. This is partially i guess fixed with Intermission where she is shown wanting to find any leads to Cloud surviving, but i wish the actual scene was handled a bit different.

I mean, Cloud fell off a mountain and got scraped knees. It's not his physical safety she's worried about.

 

[A-to-Z]

I don't really take KH seriously but it wouldn't have killed them to have Zack and Aerith interact.

I'm not against the Zerith scenes in this game. They're very sweet as I said. Him going to church to mourn is beautiful. But then it cuts away to a two year timeskip afterwards. They gave great scenes but then he is seperated from her again. They have beautiful rare moments. But I don't know maybe it's too rare. Aerith felt like she was just kinda there in the background for most of it. I would have liked if maybe the game had let us visit her in her church and see extra cutscenes or something between missions or if she would call him throughout not just the end.

I think and not you, but CTs might see it as oh you should be happy Aerith has a love interest. Why can't you enjoy that?

I get it. But it's again just one of those things. Where this is not what we were invested in or attached to for ten years prior.

Aerith is a character that was considered her own independent sassy flirty confident woman and suddenly everything about her is about a man. She still has her sassy moments ordering him to build her a new wagon, good for her but then she is regulated to just waiting around for him. So on top of that making her clothes and ribbon and actions in OG also all about him....It's just very different than if it were from Ilfana. Suddenly everything she did was about Zack, as I said including her clothes. I saw a joke that she can't even have an umbrella to herself because Zack uses her joke weapon even. Nothing felt in CC like it was truly about her except maybe her flower wagon. I don't think she actually needed redeeming. It was nice to see a woman be confident about her feelings and living in the moment. They could have explained her behavior without making Zack her raisdon de etre.

Also I think it may be matter of taste but I'm happily married and I hate love stories where a woman is so into a man that's her entire personality. I'm very close to my husband but not every thing about me is about him and vice versa. In fiction this is more common and it drives me nuts. People are unique and seperate individuals even when in a relationship. Like Aerith even selling flowers was Zack's idea.

Aerith being influenced by Zack is totally fine. Him buying her a gift, also fine. It's sweet even that he was so impactful in her life.

But nothing was hers. She had very little to start with because she dies in disk 1 but in CC she has even less. And it's about a man. A man she is seperated from for most of the game no less. So we barely get the payoff of them being together.

Again if it had been Tifa in place of Aerith that had this spin off prequel and suddenly everything about her was about another man you would understand that line of thinking.

Again for clarity and everyone reading. I'm not trying to be anti Zerith because the Zerith parts were beautiful. The problem imo isn't Zerith at all...it's the execution of their story in the game itself and the handling of Zack prior to CC and Aerith in CC.

Yes CC Aerith (and zerith’s relationship) is generally underutilized and needed more screen time to be more convincing (especially to those who thought CA to be canon); and as someone who prefers her over Tifa, I also would have loved to have her POV shown in that game, but that might’ve been too “slice-of-life” for that to have happened.

I find there’s also plenty of things in CC that expands/showcases aerith, the character we loved from OG:

• Her fear of the sky tells us about her comfort zone of staying in the slums, how it’s a symbol of her not knowing true freedom;
• Aerith’s aversion to violence, “not normal” things such as surgeries to enhance physical strength; emphasizes her pacifist nature and lets us peak into her inner conflict from the burdens she bears as a half-Cetra
• Aerith hesitating to help Zack find the child who stole his wallet tells us her protective and cautious instincts
• Her well-known presence in Sector 5 shows her people skills
• Her choosing to trust Zack shows that she wants to look past people’s jobs and titles and get to know others with sincerity
• Aerith having simple wishes (to spend more time together); tells us she’s not a particularly greedy person, but rather an innocent girl who finds value in the most mundane moments (her older self is notably more adventurous)
• Aerith comforting Zack after Angeal’s death shows us how she desires to support others in their moment of weakness; it shows her kindness and compassion, that she can be strong for others
• The 89 letters (doesn’t matter that they’re for Zack, it could’ve been anyone else who was her first love) — shows her sentimentality, persistence, strong will and commitment
• Zack’s death or long-term absence becoming one of her losses that deeply affected her, builds her character in OG

Aerith in crisis core showed me the girl who chose to surround herself in peace and normalcy despite her trauma and grief that we know tormented her. I understand why it may upset other folks because she’s written to be the love interest of the hero and that’s her main role in that game (stark contrast next to OG where she’s the heroine) and yeah as her fans, we definitely wanted more new info about her; but for me this portrayal didn’t stop my enjoyment of her and it also didn’t make me feel like CC was ruining her character; just as she contributes to zack’s story, zack was also contributing to hers, I never found there to be an imbalance, and while yes CC’s overall writing badly needs a revision, I don’t understand the OOC allegations, she’s just younger.

Aerith was presented to be “Zack, the main character”’s love interest in CC; In a meta-way Rebirth reverses their roles: Zack’s entire background is Aerith’s missing first love. Aerith, the half-Cetra heroine, who suffered so much in childhood, found new friends, and is already on her own adventure to save the planet; and Zack, her love interest, just wants to be there for her, to support her and keep her safe.

Also 1 more side note about her: Aerith watched her mother Ifalna be taken away to be experimented on almost daily; just as she often watched Zack leave her to go on his missions. Shinra took them away and it was ultimately their interference which led them to their deaths. We know she despises partings. So for me it makes sense that Aerith is somewhat clingy not just to Cloud, but she’s a person who holds on to all her dearest ones persistently, because she’s already lost enough.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I am C/T, yes. But the "it's player choice" I would say was a later defensive argumenty. Initially the C/A crowd, especially the people who would go on to comprise the site disparagingly referred to as pink hell were adamant that that C/A was the one true story. I can only speak for my own experiences, but "it's up to player choice" was a reaction to strong narrative arguments regarding C/A, along with many other arguments like "He used to love Tifa but that changed and now you get to decide" but these arguments were essentially a "Clerith of the gaps" argument.

Ah I don't think I have associated myself with that website. At least I don't remeber that. I mostly stuck to more neutral spaces. Seems in general we had very different experiences but maybe it's because I was mostly a lurker and people weren't arguing with me.

I remember one of the first things I saw was that the Cloud is a stand in for the player so it's up to us and the scene we get who he liked along with rumors I could revive Aerith which I never believed. But again it's probably because you were more involved than me and sounds like maybe you debated with extremists.

If you look at that Tactics Cameo, it's the opposite of romantic. "Hey, do I know you? You look like someone else. Anyways peace out, gotta go find my sword."
What is very interesting about that cameo is that it seems that that's a Cloud from perhaps right as the death happened. I bring this up because Cloud may have splintered himself in Rebirth by creating a forked timeline where he does save her. As per the Terrierverse having two Clouds, there is a Cloud otherwise unaccounted for. Maybe that's where the second one fell to.

Ehhh? what is this about Tactics and Rebirth and two Clouds? Sounds interesting.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ah I don't think I have associated myself with that website. At least I don't remeber that. I mostly stuck to more neutral spaces. Seems in general we had very different experiences but maybe it's because I was mostly a lurker and people weren't arguing with me.

"Pink Hell" was a common derogatory nickname for the CloudXAeris invisionfree board, but the sentiment was hardly unique there. There are people who were arguing the same on Gamefaqs (Who are still arguing the same thing there to this day, it seems)

I remember one of the first things I saw was that the Cloud is a stand in for the player so it's up to us and the scene we get who he liked along with rumors I could revive Aerith which I never believed. But again it's probably because you were more involved than me and sounds like maybe you debated with extremists.

I have definitely debated with extremists, yes, but the whole scene was more extreme back then as a whole.
As for "Cloud is a stand in" I remember those, but I don't recall them initially. I've always argued against the idea because aside from FF1, the series has shied away from pure blank slates (even the Onion Knights of 3 have set personalities and responses to things, thinly sketched as they are) in the main series, and especially in 7 saying "Cloud is a player stand in" is entirely antithetical to his ENTIRE narrative arc. And then carving out a special exception to say "Well, okay, he's his own fully realized character EXCEPT for this one choice" just made no sense.

Ehhh what is this about Tactics and two Clouds?

Oh, that's just me spit balling about the specific nature of the Cloud we see in Tactics after the events of CH14 of Rebirth. There's one Cloud in Tactics to be clear. What I was speculating is whether he might be one of the two Clouds that must now at least momentarily exist due to the reality bifurcation when he does/not save Aerith in the final chapter, as one is not quite accounted for.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Yes CC Aerith (and zerith’s relationship) is generally underutilized and needed more screen time to be more convincing (especially to those who thought CA to be canon); and as someone who prefers her over Tifa, I also would have loved to have her POV shown in that game, but that might’ve been too “slice-of-life” for that to have happened.

I find there’s also plenty of things in CC that expands/showcases aerith, the character we loved from OG:

• Her fear of the sky tells us about her comfort zone of staying in the slums, how it’s a symbol of her not knowing true freedom;
• Aerith’s aversion to violence, “not normal” things such as surgeries to enhance physical strength; emphasizes her pacifist nature and lets us peak into her inner conflict from the burdens she bears as a half-Cetra
• Aerith hesitating to help Zack find the child who stole his wallet tells us her protective and cautious instincts
• Her well-known presence in Sector 5 shows her people skills
• Her choosing to trust Zack shows that she wants to look past people’s jobs and titles and get to know others with sincerity
• Aerith having simple wishes (to spend more time together); tells us she’s not a particularly greedy person, but rather an innocent girl who finds value in the most mundane moments (her older self is notably more adventurous)
• Aerith comforting Zack after Angeal’s death shows us how she desires to support others in their moment of weakness; it shows her kindness and compassion, that she can be strong for others
• The 89 letters (doesn’t matter that they’re for Zack, it could’ve been anyone else who was her first love) — shows her sentimentality, persistence, strong will and commitment
• Zack’s death or long-term absence becoming one of her losses that deeply affected her, builds her character in OG

Aerith in crisis core showed me the girl who chose to surround herself in peace and normalcy despite her trauma and grief that we know tormented her. I understand why it may upset other folks because she’s written to be the love interest of the hero and that’s her main role in that game (stark contrast next to OG where she’s the heroine) and yeah as her fans, we definitely wanted more new info about her; but for me this portrayal didn’t stop my enjoyment of her and it also didn’t make me feel like CC was ruining her character; just as she contributes to zack’s story, zack was also contributing to hers, I never found there to be an imbalance, and while yes CC’s overall writing badly needs a revision, I don’t understand the OOC allegations, she’s just younger.

Aerith was presented to be “Zack, the main character”’s love interest in CC; In a meta-way Rebirth reverses their roles: Zack’s entire background is Aerith’s missing first love. Aerith, the half-Cetra heroine, who suffered so much in childhood, found new friends, and is already on her own adventure to save the planet; and Zack, her love interest, just wants to be there for her, to support her and keep her safe.

Also 1 more side note about her: Aerith watched her mother Ifalna be taken away to be experimented on almost daily; just as she often watched Zack leave her to go on his missions. Shinra took them away and it was ultimately their interference which led them to their deaths. We know she despises partings. So for me it makes sense that Aerith is somewhat clingy not just to Cloud, but she’s a person who holds on to all her dearest ones persistently, because she’s already lost enough.

Beautifully written. I love this and you're right. I never actually thought she was being OOC either nor that she was ruined nor that Zack is bad for her character or anything like that. As I said we see her same self in OG in CC just different sides of her. My frustration is that yes she mostly just waits and stays in the background. You make a great point about Rebirth though. That's really true.

Yeah all those parts are there but I think the frustration most CAs had and I had is what made her unique in OG was now seemingly missing by being tied to Zack. But yes for the brief time we do see her we see her character imo as she always was. And yes we also see her fear of the sky and struggle with freedom. Something expanded on in Before Crisis is she tried to leave to search for Zack. Honestly that would have been amazing to include in CC imo.

Pink Hell" was a common derogatory nickname for the CloudXAeris invisionfree board, but the sentiment was hardly unique there. There are people who were arguing the same on Gamefaqs (Who are still arguing the same thing there to this day, it seems)

I have definitely debated with extremists, yes, but the whole scene was more extreme back then as a whole.
As for "Cloud is a stand in" I remember those, but I don't recall them initially. I've always argued against the idea because aside from FF1, the series has shied away from pure blank slates (even the Onion Knights of 3 have set personalities and responses to things, thinly sketched as they are) in the main series, and especially in 7 saying "Cloud is a player stand in" is entirely antithetical to his ENTIRE narrative arc. And then carving out a special exception to say "Well, okay, he's his own fully realized character EXCEPT for this one choice" just made no sense.

Oh, that's just me spit balling about the specific nature of the Cloud we see in Tactics after the events of CH14 of Rebirth. There's one Cloud in Tactics to be clear. What I was speculating is whether he might be one of the two Clouds that must now at least momentarily exist due to the reality bifurcation when he does/not save Aerith in the final chapter, as one is not quite accounted for.

Sorry for double post. I edited it to here I'm still trying to figure out how to quote everything on one post. I made two posts on accident.

Ahhh I get it so first the argument was Clerith is the one true pairing then it switched to player choice then they started talking more of how romantic CA was and debunking CT. I see. Yeah makes sense.

Oh I know of that site. I wasn't a member though. But maybe just the fact I was a Clerith meant I already didn't see these ideas as that extreme. I was like "oh it's an affection system so we can choose makes sense" I don't think back then I imagined FF7 to be so deep. But now I really enjoy it for being so subversive of common tropes.

Funny that theory reminds me of my brother's. (He is not fandom at all.) He told me when Remake came out he theorized "Cloud trying to save Aerith broke the timeline". Interesting. We will see.