SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Jane Fane]

LMAO It's a full circle moment if I ever saw one. For years, Aerith and/or Tifa were too Cloud-centric, then Cloud was too Tifa-centric, then Aerith was too Zack-centric, and now Rebirth has completed this 27-year circle jerk with Zack is too Aerith-centric.

 

[Ryushikaze]

@Ryushikaze But you're a Cloti right? I was talking about Cleriths. How Cleriths did have the idea of player choice but later on that it kinda shifted to arguing about a canon route and story points and less and less about point values (thank Gaia). Because I was asked how could Cleriths see OG as player choice. Hmm maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I am C/T, yes. But the "it's player choice" I would say was a later defensive argumenty. Initially the C/A crowd, especially the people who would go on to comprise the site disparagingly referred to as pink hell were adamant that that C/A was the one true story. I can only speak for my own experiences, but "it's up to player choice" was a reaction to strong narrative arguments regarding C/A, along with many other arguments like "He used to love Tifa but that changed and now you get to decide" but these arguments were essentially a "Clerith of the gaps" argument.

Also it was not particularly clear you were talking about just CA arguments previously. Thank you for clearing that up.

I remember back then the fights about those values. And from what I was saw there wasn't really widespread pushback against doing so. People usually just argued back with other values, even if yes not everyone believed the numbers counted. I'm pretty sure Cleriths did think they counted for a lot. And as I said I don't really know how to convey it because now it's just a rare argument to see. But it wasn't back then.

Cleriths argued that Aerith having a "head start" in point values was an indicator that she was the destined pair, IIRC.
But yeah, no one ever considered the implications of player choice meaning you could also "choose" Barret or Yuffie. It was always between T and A.

Though recently I did have a random person in my mentions trying to convince me we can choose to see or not see Tifa's HA HW scene therefore it's player choice and talking about values. Even though I literally never brought it up. It was nostalgic in a weird way....

This is actually a very odd way to look at it. For a comparison it's like arguing that the Hojo fight in chapter 6 is "optional" because you can choose to fight with one set of allies or the other but not both and thus neither actually happened.

I have a genuine question - in what way was Cloud and Aerith's relationship ever romantic in the OG? When I first played the game, I liked Tifa and so I was extra nice to her, but I didn't go out of my way to be mean to Aerith and I got Tifa as a date at the GS without even really trying. I felt like Cloud and Aerith had a more brother/sister vibe to them. Some of you have said that the game sort of pushes Aerith in Disc 1, but I'm at a loss as to how. The game introduces the promise/water tower scene at the start and sets up the bond between Tifa and Cloud. So the sign is already there that there's something between these two.

The trick with the affection value shell game is that you can choose to say nice or mean things to Aerith, but you can't actually choose to say anything mean to Tifa. So it's possible to choose to be nice and occasionally even flirty with Aerith in player dialogue, but regardless of what you do, absolutely nothing changes in the story after Aerith dies, regardless of whether her AV is 5, 50, or 500. All the game gives a shit about re: those AV is Tifa's.

The loudest complaints I'd heard about Zack falling through the roof were from some CAs who felt that it was an example of Zack copying or taking things from CA, making it feel like their ship was less special and showing it to be just a clumsy copy & paste.

I mean, that was sort of the point. They were elaborating on how in the OG, Aerith latched onto stuff in Cloud's cool persona that reminded her of Zack.

Similarly, some Cloud fans were also annoyed that the things that Cloud had been known to do in the OG, things that they had taken to be uniquely Cloud, were instead from Zack.

If that was the case back then- I don't remember it but I'll take your word- it certainly doesn't seem to be the case now.

It's not that Zack came out of nowhere as in the first time you hear of him. It's that they established him and his relationship with Aerith was shown in detail ten years after the release of OG. No where in OG were we given the idea he was a great match for her or anything. We hardly see him and her own words sound like he left her unless you get the hidden scene in Shinra manor's basement. Which who would go thinking of that? And it wasn't even in the original game. We didn't get any real moment to get attached to Zack.

That scene was in the original North America Release. It wasn't in the JP release but there's a reason they released the international edition ASAP. Original Japanese FF7 was missing things. Like the optional superbosses and Zack.

SE sure put Aerith in KingdomHearts, SE sure had a romantic looking cameo for Aerith and Cloud in FF Tactics. SE sure plastered Aerith everywhere they could and made her arc seem special. So in our minds oh so SE wants us to see the bonds of these characters.

If you look at that Tactics Cameo, it's the opposite of romantic. "Hey, do I know you? You look like someone else. Anyways peace out, gotta go find my sword."
What is very interesting about that cameo is that it seems that that's a Cloud from perhaps right as the death happened. I bring this up because Cloud may have splintered himself in Rebirth by creating a forked timeline where he does save her. As per the Terrierverse having two Clouds, there is a Cloud otherwise unaccounted for. Maybe that's where the second one fell to.

We felt in lack of other terms played.

Imagine if for years you're in invested in CT then they add a game where Tifa's got a watertower scene with another guy.

How would you feel? Then on top of it they decided to tie everything about Tifa to that man. Her personality her clothes etc.

That's how it felt. However Zack was nice enough a guy that Aerith fans found a new ship. Zerith is a beautiful ship. But frustratingly enough that game didn't show too many moments between them. He is on missions seperated from her. Then she writes him 98 letters because she was so into him but we never got time to see why because they really did a timeskip instead of showing their relationship fully grow. The rest of screentime was given to the weirdest B plot with fighting Genesis and clones.
Aerith also had little screen time herself etc. And Genesis is annoying.

I can see where you're coming from, but even in the OG Aerith compared Cloud to her first love. She even said Cloud was "just like" him at one point. So it makes sense there would be major narrative callbacks there, especially because Aerith is a doomed heroine, and even before Crisis Core came out we had indicators that she was holding onto the past even as she was moving forward. Even in Maiden who Travels, she calls forth Zack by trying to think of the things that made Cloud uniquely himself.

I always found this really weird. Even in Remake she barely reacts to seeing Cloud again. After seeing him fall to his supposed death earlier in Sector 5, you'd think she would react a lot more strongly to seeing Cloud again instead of just saying "Cloud you're alright" in a fairly casual tone. This is partially i guess fixed with Intermission where she is shown wanting to find any leads to Cloud surviving, but i wish the actual scene was handled a bit different.

I mean, Cloud fell off a mountain and got scraped knees. It's not his physical safety she's worried about.

 

[A-to-Z]

I don't really take KH seriously but it wouldn't have killed them to have Zack and Aerith interact.

I'm not against the Zerith scenes in this game. They're very sweet as I said. Him going to church to mourn is beautiful. But then it cuts away to a two year timeskip afterwards. They gave great scenes but then he is seperated from her again. They have beautiful rare moments. But I don't know maybe it's too rare. Aerith felt like she was just kinda there in the background for most of it. I would have liked if maybe the game had let us visit her in her church and see extra cutscenes or something between missions or if she would call him throughout not just the end.

I think and not you, but CTs might see it as oh you should be happy Aerith has a love interest. Why can't you enjoy that?

I get it. But it's again just one of those things. Where this is not what we were invested in or attached to for ten years prior.

Aerith is a character that was considered her own independent sassy flirty confident woman and suddenly everything about her is about a man. She still has her sassy moments ordering him to build her a new wagon, good for her but then she is regulated to just waiting around for him. So on top of that making her clothes and ribbon and actions in OG also all about him....It's just very different than if it were from Ilfana. Suddenly everything she did was about Zack, as I said including her clothes. I saw a joke that she can't even have an umbrella to herself because Zack uses her joke weapon even. Nothing felt in CC like it was truly about her except maybe her flower wagon. I don't think she actually needed redeeming. It was nice to see a woman be confident about her feelings and living in the moment. They could have explained her behavior without making Zack her raisdon de etre.

Also I think it may be matter of taste but I'm happily married and I hate love stories where a woman is so into a man that's her entire personality. I'm very close to my husband but not every thing about me is about him and vice versa. In fiction this is more common and it drives me nuts. People are unique and seperate individuals even when in a relationship. Like Aerith even selling flowers was Zack's idea.

Aerith being influenced by Zack is totally fine. Him buying her a gift, also fine. It's sweet even that he was so impactful in her life.

But nothing was hers. She had very little to start with because she dies in disk 1 but in CC she has even less. And it's about a man. A man she is seperated from for most of the game no less. So we barely get the payoff of them being together.

Again if it had been Tifa in place of Aerith that had this spin off prequel and suddenly everything about her was about another man you would understand that line of thinking.

Again for clarity and everyone reading. I'm not trying to be anti Zerith because the Zerith parts were beautiful. The problem imo isn't Zerith at all...it's the execution of their story in the game itself and the handling of Zack prior to CC and Aerith in CC.

Yes CC Aerith (and zerith’s relationship) is generally underutilized and needed more screen time to be more convincing (especially to those who thought CA to be canon); and as someone who prefers her over Tifa, I also would have loved to have her POV shown in that game, but that might’ve been too “slice-of-life” for that to have happened.

I find there’s also plenty of things in CC that expands/showcases aerith, the character we loved from OG:

• Her fear of the sky tells us about her comfort zone of staying in the slums, how it’s a symbol of her not knowing true freedom;
• Aerith’s aversion to violence, “not normal” things such as surgeries to enhance physical strength; emphasizes her pacifist nature and lets us peak into her inner conflict from the burdens she bears as a half-Cetra
• Aerith hesitating to help Zack find the child who stole his wallet tells us her protective and cautious instincts
• Her well-known presence in Sector 5 shows her people skills
• Her choosing to trust Zack shows that she wants to look past people’s jobs and titles and get to know others with sincerity
• Aerith having simple wishes (to spend more time together); tells us she’s not a particularly greedy person, but rather an innocent girl who finds value in the most mundane moments (her older self is notably more adventurous)
• Aerith comforting Zack after Angeal’s death shows us how she desires to support others in their moment of weakness; it shows her kindness and compassion, that she can be strong for others
• The 89 letters (doesn’t matter that they’re for Zack, it could’ve been anyone else who was her first love) — shows her sentimentality, persistence, strong will and commitment
• Zack’s death or long-term absence becoming one of her losses that deeply affected her, builds her character in OG

Aerith in crisis core showed me the girl who chose to surround herself in peace and normalcy despite her trauma and grief that we know tormented her. I understand why it may upset other folks because she’s written to be the love interest of the hero and that’s her main role in that game (stark contrast next to OG where she’s the heroine) and yeah as her fans, we definitely wanted more new info about her; but for me this portrayal didn’t stop my enjoyment of her and it also didn’t make me feel like CC was ruining her character; just as she contributes to zack’s story, zack was also contributing to hers, I never found there to be an imbalance, and while yes CC’s overall writing badly needs a revision, I don’t understand the OOC allegations, she’s just younger.

Aerith was presented to be “Zack, the main character”’s love interest in CC; In a meta-way Rebirth reverses their roles: Zack’s entire background is Aerith’s missing first love. Aerith, the half-Cetra heroine, who suffered so much in childhood, found new friends, and is already on her own adventure to save the planet; and Zack, her love interest, just wants to be there for her, to support her and keep her safe.

Also 1 more side note about her: Aerith watched her mother Ifalna be taken away to be experimented on almost daily; just as she often watched Zack leave her to go on his missions. Shinra took them away and it was ultimately their interference which led them to their deaths. We know she despises partings. So for me it makes sense that Aerith is somewhat clingy not just to Cloud, but she’s a person who holds on to all her dearest ones persistently, because she’s already lost enough.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I am C/T, yes. But the "it's player choice" I would say was a later defensive argumenty. Initially the C/A crowd, especially the people who would go on to comprise the site disparagingly referred to as pink hell were adamant that that C/A was the one true story. I can only speak for my own experiences, but "it's up to player choice" was a reaction to strong narrative arguments regarding C/A, along with many other arguments like "He used to love Tifa but that changed and now you get to decide" but these arguments were essentially a "Clerith of the gaps" argument.

Ah I don't think I have associated myself with that website. At least I don't remeber that. I mostly stuck to more neutral spaces. Seems in general we had very different experiences but maybe it's because I was mostly a lurker and people weren't arguing with me.

I remember one of the first things I saw was that the Cloud is a stand in for the player so it's up to us and the scene we get who he liked along with rumors I could revive Aerith which I never believed. But again it's probably because you were more involved than me and sounds like maybe you debated with extremists.

If you look at that Tactics Cameo, it's the opposite of romantic. "Hey, do I know you? You look like someone else. Anyways peace out, gotta go find my sword."
What is very interesting about that cameo is that it seems that that's a Cloud from perhaps right as the death happened. I bring this up because Cloud may have splintered himself in Rebirth by creating a forked timeline where he does save her. As per the Terrierverse having two Clouds, there is a Cloud otherwise unaccounted for. Maybe that's where the second one fell to.

Ehhh? what is this about Tactics and Rebirth and two Clouds? Sounds interesting.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ah I don't think I have associated myself with that website. At least I don't remeber that. I mostly stuck to more neutral spaces. Seems in general we had very different experiences but maybe it's because I was mostly a lurker and people weren't arguing with me.

"Pink Hell" was a common derogatory nickname for the CloudXAeris invisionfree board, but the sentiment was hardly unique there. There are people who were arguing the same on Gamefaqs (Who are still arguing the same thing there to this day, it seems)

I remember one of the first things I saw was that the Cloud is a stand in for the player so it's up to us and the scene we get who he liked along with rumors I could revive Aerith which I never believed. But again it's probably because you were more involved than me and sounds like maybe you debated with extremists.

I have definitely debated with extremists, yes, but the whole scene was more extreme back then as a whole.
As for "Cloud is a stand in" I remember those, but I don't recall them initially. I've always argued against the idea because aside from FF1, the series has shied away from pure blank slates (even the Onion Knights of 3 have set personalities and responses to things, thinly sketched as they are) in the main series, and especially in 7 saying "Cloud is a player stand in" is entirely antithetical to his ENTIRE narrative arc. And then carving out a special exception to say "Well, okay, he's his own fully realized character EXCEPT for this one choice" just made no sense.

Ehhh what is this about Tactics and two Clouds?

Oh, that's just me spit balling about the specific nature of the Cloud we see in Tactics after the events of CH14 of Rebirth. There's one Cloud in Tactics to be clear. What I was speculating is whether he might be one of the two Clouds that must now at least momentarily exist due to the reality bifurcation when he does/not save Aerith in the final chapter, as one is not quite accounted for.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Yes CC Aerith (and zerith’s relationship) is generally underutilized and needed more screen time to be more convincing (especially to those who thought CA to be canon); and as someone who prefers her over Tifa, I also would have loved to have her POV shown in that game, but that might’ve been too “slice-of-life” for that to have happened.

I find there’s also plenty of things in CC that expands/showcases aerith, the character we loved from OG:

• Her fear of the sky tells us about her comfort zone of staying in the slums, how it’s a symbol of her not knowing true freedom;
• Aerith’s aversion to violence, “not normal” things such as surgeries to enhance physical strength; emphasizes her pacifist nature and lets us peak into her inner conflict from the burdens she bears as a half-Cetra
• Aerith hesitating to help Zack find the child who stole his wallet tells us her protective and cautious instincts
• Her well-known presence in Sector 5 shows her people skills
• Her choosing to trust Zack shows that she wants to look past people’s jobs and titles and get to know others with sincerity
• Aerith having simple wishes (to spend more time together); tells us she’s not a particularly greedy person, but rather an innocent girl who finds value in the most mundane moments (her older self is notably more adventurous)
• Aerith comforting Zack after Angeal’s death shows us how she desires to support others in their moment of weakness; it shows her kindness and compassion, that she can be strong for others
• The 89 letters (doesn’t matter that they’re for Zack, it could’ve been anyone else who was her first love) — shows her sentimentality, persistence, strong will and commitment
• Zack’s death or long-term absence becoming one of her losses that deeply affected her, builds her character in OG

Aerith in crisis core showed me the girl who chose to surround herself in peace and normalcy despite her trauma and grief that we know tormented her. I understand why it may upset other folks because she’s written to be the love interest of the hero and that’s her main role in that game (stark contrast next to OG where she’s the heroine) and yeah as her fans, we definitely wanted more new info about her; but for me this portrayal didn’t stop my enjoyment of her and it also didn’t make me feel like CC was ruining her character; just as she contributes to zack’s story, zack was also contributing to hers, I never found there to be an imbalance, and while yes CC’s overall writing badly needs a revision, I don’t understand the OOC allegations, she’s just younger.

Aerith was presented to be “Zack, the main character”’s love interest in CC; In a meta-way Rebirth reverses their roles: Zack’s entire background is Aerith’s missing first love. Aerith, the half-Cetra heroine, who suffered so much in childhood, found new friends, and is already on her own adventure to save the planet; and Zack, her love interest, just wants to be there for her, to support her and keep her safe.

Also 1 more side note about her: Aerith watched her mother Ifalna be taken away to be experimented on almost daily; just as she often watched Zack leave her to go on his missions. Shinra took them away and it was ultimately their interference which led them to their deaths. We know she despises partings. So for me it makes sense that Aerith is somewhat clingy not just to Cloud, but she’s a person who holds on to all her dearest ones persistently, because she’s already lost enough.

Beautifully written. I love this and you're right. I never actually thought she was being OOC either nor that she was ruined nor that Zack is bad for her character or anything like that. As I said we see her same self in OG in CC just different sides of her. My frustration is that yes she mostly just waits and stays in the background. You make a great point about Rebirth though. That's really true.

Yeah all those parts are there but I think the frustration most CAs had and I had is what made her unique in OG was now seemingly missing by being tied to Zack. But yes for the brief time we do see her we see her character imo as she always was. And yes we also see her fear of the sky and struggle with freedom. Something expanded on in Before Crisis is she tried to leave to search for Zack. Honestly that would have been amazing to include in CC imo.

Pink Hell" was a common derogatory nickname for the CloudXAeris invisionfree board, but the sentiment was hardly unique there. There are people who were arguing the same on Gamefaqs (Who are still arguing the same thing there to this day, it seems)

I have definitely debated with extremists, yes, but the whole scene was more extreme back then as a whole.
As for "Cloud is a stand in" I remember those, but I don't recall them initially. I've always argued against the idea because aside from FF1, the series has shied away from pure blank slates (even the Onion Knights of 3 have set personalities and responses to things, thinly sketched as they are) in the main series, and especially in 7 saying "Cloud is a player stand in" is entirely antithetical to his ENTIRE narrative arc. And then carving out a special exception to say "Well, okay, he's his own fully realized character EXCEPT for this one choice" just made no sense.

Oh, that's just me spit balling about the specific nature of the Cloud we see in Tactics after the events of CH14 of Rebirth. There's one Cloud in Tactics to be clear. What I was speculating is whether he might be one of the two Clouds that must now at least momentarily exist due to the reality bifurcation when he does/not save Aerith in the final chapter, as one is not quite accounted for.

Sorry for double post. I edited it to here I'm still trying to figure out how to quote everything on one post. I made two posts on accident.

Ahhh I get it so first the argument was Clerith is the one true pairing then it switched to player choice then they started talking more of how romantic CA was and debunking CT. I see. Yeah makes sense.

Oh I know of that site. I wasn't a member though. But maybe just the fact I was a Clerith meant I already didn't see these ideas as that extreme. I was like "oh it's an affection system so we can choose makes sense" I don't think back then I imagined FF7 to be so deep. But now I really enjoy it for being so subversive of common tropes.

Funny that theory reminds me of my brother's. (He is not fandom at all.) He told me when Remake came out he theorized "Cloud trying to save Aerith broke the timeline". Interesting. We will see.

 

[A-to-Z]

Maybe because I only became a fan after Remake, but I also don’t understand how “all her unique traits are now tied to Zack” Aerith loved flowers even before they met, she already planted the reunion flowers outside her house, and loved ribbons (wore them in childhood) along with the color pink before Zack, because she herself picked the ribbon according to her preference. The traits tied to Zack are, in my opinion, surface-level aspects of her character.

I feel like we shouldn’t attribute her entire career as a flower-seller to him either because he’s been absent for most of it, he just gave her the idea (and I get maybe that’s what you don’t like). If they wanted to show that Zack helped Aerith realize that she wanted to spread flowers all around Midgar, then yes the game should have invested more time into making this connection feel more natural (along with the many other lore concepts and relationships that CC introduced which could’ve been more polished in writing)

Overall ZA just have a shared history (they once shared a dream, both looked forward to their future together without expecting to part ways), and Zack dying paints Aerith as someone who moves on with her life despite her losses. For me what always made Aerith unique was her Cetra heritage, her backstory, personality, and character development arc; none of which can be credited to Zack, as her love interest, he’s just one of the many factors that adds to them, with or without CC I think those remain consistent and unscathed.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Maybe because I only became a fan after Remake, but I also don’t understand how “all her unique traits are now tied to Zack” Aerith loved flowers even before they met, she already planted the reunion flowers outside her house, and loved ribbons (wore them in childhood) along with the color pink before Zack, because she herself picked the ribbon according to her preference. The traits tied to Zack are, in my opinion, surface-level aspects of her character.

I feel like we shouldn’t attribute her entire career as a flower-seller to him either because he’s been absent for most of it, he just gave her the idea (and I get maybe that’s what you don’t like). If they wanted to show that Zack helped Aerith realize that she wanted to spread flowers all around Midgar, then yes the game should have invested more time into making this connection feel more natural (along with the many other lore concepts and relationships that CC introduced which could’ve been more polished in writing)

Overall ZA just have a shared history (they once shared a dream, both looked forward to their future together without expecting to part ways), and Zack dying paints Aerith as someone who moves on with her life despite her losses. For me what always made Aerith unique was her Cetra heritage, her backstory, personality, and character development arc; none of which can be credited to Zack, as her love interest, he’s just one of the many factors that adds to them, with or without CC I think those remain consistent and unscathed.

Yeah it's admittedly I think mostly frustration. At least my feelings were. Frustration because of the situation. I think if CC had been released a year after OG or 5 years after maybe this wouldn't be the reaction. Maybe it would have been easily accepted even. But as a CA fan of OG ten years passed then this released. Zack in Maiden was not painted in the best light, Zack in general was mostly absent, Dismantled said she loved Cloud more. All of these things set these ideas and expectations and those ideas lingered for ten years.

I don't think all of Aerith was erased by Zack. Just it did feel that way and on the surface it looked that way and Nojima had a quote saying he tried to tie as many aspects of Zack to her as possible because he felt sorry for her. So that just added to the upset. Especially when even moments she had with Cloud were now originally with Zack. I felt like I had been lead on and while I didn't particularly think Aerith was ruined I wanted more of those moments where she is more dynamic like in OG. Alas CC was not the game for that.

It didn't make me a Zerith hater or anything. But I am just saying I completely understand why the initial reaction of many CAs was rejection and to get upset. I don't think every assessment is fair. Like no it didn't ruin her character, no Zack is not bad for her. As I said some takes about CC are exaggerated but I see where it came from.

 

[tenabrus]

"Pink Hell" was a common derogatory nickname for the CloudXAeris invisionfree board, but the sentiment was hardly unique there.

Snapshot, for the curious. And the zetaboard version. Some of it is still searchable through the Wayback Machine.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Maybe because I only became a fan after Remake, but I also don’t understand how “all her unique traits are now tied to Zack” Aerith loved flowers even before they met, she already planted the reunion flowers outside her house, and loved ribbons (wore them in childhood) along with the color pink before Zack, because she herself picked the ribbon according to her preference. The traits tied to Zack are, in my opinion, surface-level aspects of her character.

I feel like we shouldn’t attribute her entire career as a flower-seller to him either because he’s been absent for most of it, he just gave her the idea (and I get maybe that’s what you don’t like). If they wanted to show that Zack helped Aerith realize that she wanted to spread flowers all around Midgar, then yes the game should have invested more time into making this connection feel more natural (along with the many other lore concepts and relationships that CC introduced which could’ve been more polished in writing)

Overall ZA just have a shared history (they once shared a dream, both looked forward to their future together without expecting to part ways), and Zack dying paints Aerith as someone who moves on with her life despite her losses. For me what always made Aerith unique was her Cetra heritage, her backstory, personality, and character development arc; none of which can be credited to Zack, as her love interest, he’s just one of the many factors that adds to them, with or without CC I think those remain consistent and unscathed.

I found that quite often the "all her unique traits are now tied to Zack" really meant "Everything we had claimed for Cloud x Aerith is now Zack x Aerith instead" and yes. That was the point. Not as a malicious dig against shippers, but to elaborate on just what all Aerith's first love actually meant to her, and why Cloud did fascinate her so much because of it.

Snapshot, for the curious. And the zetaboard version. Some of it is still searchable through the Wayback Machine.

That color scheme- more hideous than I recalled - was why it got the moniker Pink Hell. I forget when exactly the name changeover happened.

 

[Eerie]

A few points:

Introducing Zack would have been fine but the way it went was to basically show us that Clerith wasn't special in anyway because the scenes we even associated with Aerith and Cloud were now ZA moments.

Like I respect writers and canon but there is a thing also called understanding your audience too. You don't just let your audience for ten years think their fave female character has this super special arc then suddenly go no everything you love about her is due to this guy and expect them to just happily go "OK". I love Zerith but yes at first I was definitely like what is this?? And I know if the shoe was on the other foot CTs would definitely understand what I mean.

The problem is that the CA fandom saw it this way, but Nojima saw it as "protecting Aerith from wrong statements" (especially the date line).

The devs, and Nojima especially, simply don't have the same idea about this game, the characters and their relationships than the players, especially shippers. In Rebirth they've taken away a lot of CT motifs too, yet CT is still there. Them not having that callback shows that it wasn't that important - but the OG having so few scenes betweens CA and CT also meant that we tend to cling to little things.

The OG scene in Gonagaga is actually very short and gives the impression she isn't that upset because she's talking about him probably finding some other girl. Like yes we should catch on she was in denial but the game doesn't really give us an indication to actually think this.

A friend of mine aboslutely loved Aerith in the OG but never shipped CA because it was very obvious to her that Aerith was not over Zack. So she shipped CT instead.

But, would he if he had his mind back? That's always been the question to me. We know the "real" Cloud loves Tifa, but in the OG, we'll never know about Aerith.

I will be fair, and I will tell you that maybe you see it that way, but the reason why people don't is precisely because Tifa is here and we see Cloud being in love with her. Hell, he even use "ai" while attacking her in Gongaga, showing that yes, he's talking about that kind of love when he thinks about Tifa.
It's a game where you cannot say "oh but if.." no. It doesn't work like that. If Tifa didn't exist, Aerith wouldn't either because they're the same coin, so the story would be vastly different. That's the truth. And we know who Cloud loves: despite having two girls who have romantic feelings for him, he only kisses one. There's a reason, why it's here, in part 2, before Aerith dies: it's to show WHO Cloud loves, even with Aerith around. There's a reason why so many articles are like "hey, the Tifa date is the most romantic! You have to see that!" because hell, in 27 years we finally see Cloud kiss his love interest in game. That's HUGE and I have the feeling that for some players it completely goes unnoticed because they are so entrenched with the idea that he cannot be in love with Tifa.

I went back and rewatched the carriage scene and I retroactively was upset like “TIFA HE COULD HAVE DIED????”
But I guess, as I think was mentioned here before, Tifa just has that much faith in him at that point that I don’t think she truly believes that he’d die on her like that. I never finished Intergrade so I didn’t know she had scenes where she was looking for him even a little. But I think at that point too, Cloud has already told her that he’s staying in Midgar to keep his promise to her? Which probably just strengthens her faith in him, especially since he remembers after all those years apart. At this point she believes that he made it into SOLDIER and everything too. Not long before this he just stumbles into Midgar and they find each other again, like it was fate. So I guess I can’t blame her for having that much faith in him lol.

Tifa was super worried and this is exactly why she acted super rashly. When she has strong feelings like that she does rash things, it's one of her character's traits (rage, but not only). She's an action girl, and thinks too much - she tries to erase the feelings/thoughts by acting, usually not in the best way.

The trick with the affection value shell game is that you can choose to say nice or mean things to Aerith, but you can't actually choose to say anything mean to Tifa.

It's still the same in Rebirth TBH, you can be quite mean to Aerith, but Tifa's worst options are rather neutral.

 

[tenabrus]

It didn't make me a Zerith hater or anything. But I am just saying I completely understand why the initial reaction of many CAs was rejection and to get upset. I don't think every assessment is fair like no it didn't ruin her character as I said some takes about CC are exaggerated but I see where it came from.

While I've more or less come around to Crisis Core, I was in the same boat, although not for Clerith/Zerith reasons. I think it's a problem with a lot of prequel storytelling, that they naturally tend to eliminate the mystique of backstory in the original work via explanation. Zack in the OG was much more conceptual in nature, but Zack in CC has to put up or shut up in being the image of the idealized love Aerith hasn't been able to let go of, and the idealized hero Cloud wishes he could be.

I also feel like, once it seems like they collectively memory holed Cloud's original fake persona with the KH version, it made it a bit more inexplicable that Aerith would really associate them with each other, and they felt like it was necessary to try and explain what exactly Aerith thought she saw in Cloud that made her think of Zack, and why her attachment would be so pronounced. Hence giving Cloud's introduction and her early dynamic with Cloud to Zack.

The silver lining for CAs, I imagine, is that by making Zack so distinct from Cloud, it does add credence to Aerith genuinely coming to care for Cloud as his own unique person, whereas OG Cloud never really steps out of Zack's shadow before she dies.

 

[Stiggie]

Such a complicated situation.

That's precisely with the added context of Crisis Core that I learned to love Aerith when I couldn't stand her in OG.

I feel so sorry for the devs. Must be so hard to make every corner of the fandom happy. FF7 is such a big thing, with differents fans, so many wishes.

That's why they should just pick a lane and stick with it, stop people from having their expectations ruined by just pulling off the bandaid

 

[tenabrus]

I will be fair, and I will tell you that maybe you see it that way, but the reason why people don't is precisely because Tifa is here and we see Cloud being in love with her. Hell, he even use "ai" while attacking her in Gongaga, showing that yes, he's talking about that kind of love when he thinks about Tifa.

Some people also don't pick up on Cloud having any feelings for Tifa, or Aerith having any feelings for Zack, or whatever. There are plenty of people who feel very very strongly that the game actually is saying Cloud is always in love with Aerith and never loves anyone else. I don't agree with them, but that people can form an opinion isn't proof the viability of that opinion.

It's a game where you cannot say "oh but if.." no. It doesn't work like that. If Tifa didn't exist, Aerith wouldn't either because they're the same coin, so the story would be vastly different.

Are you just generally objecting to the existence of hypotheticals? Naturally the story would be different, but it is interesting to explore alternative possibilities. I will point out that the remake trilogy is itself an exploration of possibility. Obviously many of the interactions we see between all of the characters, including Cloud and Tifa's kiss, did not exist in the original. Rebirth means accepting an alternate story with these characters where this makes sense.

That's HUGE and I have the feeling that for some players it completely goes unnoticed because they are so entrenched with the idea that he cannot be in love with Tifa.

I feel like you're missing my point entirely. I prefer CT and have for many years. I feel the OG ends with CT, and that it's not ambiguous either. I feel the Compilation deliberately plays coy about it, but at worst is just coy about the exact nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship, rather than the idea Cloud is still so in love with Aerith his greatest wish is to die and be reunited with her.

I am in no way missing the significance of Cloud kissing Tifa but not kissing Aerith. But I am also willing to explore alternative dynamics, the complexities of these characters and their feelings and their situations; I'm not interested in reducing them down to the simplest version of themselves that best supports the romantic pairing I prefer.

And, not for nothing, but that's ultimately the reason I think FF7 supports Cloud/Tifa, because you can completely argue for the existence of Cloud and Aerith's romantic feelings for each other and argue for Cloud and Tifa's, and the Cloti endgame still makes sense. But you cannot do the opposite: making the romantic argument for Tifa and Cloud totally undercuts Cloud/Aerith, so it must be disregarded or ignored.

EDIT: And to be clear, I'm not arguing "would Cloud love Aerith more than Tifa?". That's not the point of the question. The question is more about exploring how Cloud's "real" feelings relate to Aerith. Could he have loved Aerith if he were the real him? How much does it "count" for Cloud to have romantic feelings for Aerith before--is the time Cloud and Tifa spent bonding when he was not himself irrelevant? If not, why would it be different for Aerith? And so on.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Some people also don't pick up on Cloud having any feelings for Tifa, or Aerith having any feelings for Zack, or whatever. There are plenty of people who feel very very strongly that the game actually is saying Cloud is always in love with Aerith and never loves anyone else. I don't agree with them, but that people can form an opinion isn't proof the viability of that opinion.

Are you just generally objecting to the existence of hypotheticals? Naturally the story would be different, but it is interesting to explore alternative possibilities. I will point out that the remake trilogy is itself an exploration of possibility. Obviously many of the interactions we see between all of the characters, including Cloud and Tifa's kiss, did not exist in the original. Rebirth means accepting an alternate story with these characters where this makes sense.

I feel like you're missing my point entirely. I prefer CT and have for many years. I feel the OG ends with CT, and that it's not ambiguous either. I feel the Compilation deliberately plays coy about it, but at worst is just coy about the exact nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship, rather than the idea Cloud is still so in love with Aerith his greatest wish is to die and be reunited with her.

I am in no way missing the significance of Cloud kissing Tifa but not kissing Aerith. But I am also willing to explore alternative dynamics, the complexities of these characters and their feelings and their situations; I'm not interested in reducing them down to the simplest version of themselves that best supports the romantic pairing I prefer.

And, not for nothing, but that's ultimately the reason I think FF7 supports Cloud/Tifa, because you can completely argue for the existence of Cloud and Aerith's romantic feelings for each other and argue for Cloud and Tifa's, and the Cloti endgame still makes sense. But you cannot do the opposite: making the romantic argument for Tifa and Cloud totally undercuts Cloud/Aerith, so it must be disregarded or ignored.

I said many years ago that you can make an argument for Cloud and Tifa being a couple in the endgame without every mentioning Aerith or whether or not Cloud loved her or not or how. C/T is an Aerith neutral proposition. C/A, by contrast, cannot ignore Tifa, because and not to put too fine a point on it, there is no Cloud as we know him without Tifa (Zack too in a lessened capacity). In a hypothetical world where there was no cute girl next door, Cloud never is inspired to leave home to join SOLDIER to become someone special to her. Or lets say she dies before the events of the game, then Cloud never recovers himself after Zack being gunned down.

You cannot have a Cloud that finds himself in the circumstances to meet Aerith without a Tifa in the picture somewhere. Not without rewriting the entire scenario so massively as to make it an entire Alternate Universe scenario.

 

[Stiggie]

I said many years ago that you can make an argument for Cloud and Tifa being a couple in the endgame without every mentioning Aerith or whether or not Cloud loved her or not or how. C/T is an Aerith neutral proposition. C/A, by contrast, cannot ignore Tifa, because and not to put too fine a point on it, there is no Cloud as we know him without Tifa (Zack too in a lessened capacity). In a hypothetical world where there was no cute girl next door, Cloud never is inspired to leave home to join SOLDIER to become someone special to her. Or lets say she dies before the events of the game, then Cloud never recovers himself after Zack being gunned down.

You cannot have a Cloud that finds himself in the circumstances to meet Aerith without a Tifa in the picture somewhere. Not without rewriting the entire scenario so massively as to make it an entire Alternate Universe scenario.

I'll do you one better, I could describe clouds entire internal story arc as it pertains to ffvii without ever mentioning Aerith. This always sounds more insulting than I intend it, but I could replace Aerith with a random holy summoning mcguffin and the story would still be fully intact.

Also, to come back to everything being about zack, couldn't it be argued that the og did the same for cloud? The entire premise of the games resolution is that everything that we believed was uniquely cloud was essentially received from Zack. It kinda makes everything of aerith actually being zack almost meta, it's just two zacks flirting with each other apparently XD

It's also arguable that the lifestream reveal makes it so that everything people liked about cloud and aerith, namely him being her bodyguard, is suddenly repurposed to actually be about tifa. You can always feel like that if you choose to take stuff the worst way.


Anyway, I still just vehemently oppose the idea that just because you discover how a person became a certain way that that somehow invalidates it. Cc explains how aerith, the young girl, became aerith, the woman.

 

[LNK]

But to be honest, I don’t like the argument that weapons of the planet are helping/protecting Tifa…which makes it sound like she is the “chosen one”…
One thing I really like in Og is that Cloud and Tifa really just feel like nobodies…

The thing is, the planet isn't necessarily protecting Tifa. It's protecting itself

 

[Sacky]

I said many years ago that you can make an argument for Cloud and Tifa being a couple in the endgame without every mentioning Aerith or whether or not Cloud loved her or not or how. C/T is an Aerith neutral proposition. C/A, by contrast, cannot ignore Tifa, because and not to put too fine a point on it, there is no Cloud as we know him without Tifa (Zack too in a lessened capacity). In a hypothetical world where there was no cute girl next door, Cloud never is inspired to leave home to join SOLDIER to become someone special to her. Or lets say she dies before the events of the game, then Cloud never recovers himself after Zack being gunned down.

You cannot have a Cloud that finds himself in the circumstances to meet Aerith without a Tifa in the picture somewhere. Not without rewriting the entire scenario so massively as to make it an entire Alternate Universe scenario.

Yeah when I try to think of a Cloud without Tifa wether people like it or not Clouds whole character does revolve around Tifa since it's what made him who he is. I guess without Tifa cloud would just be more angry at everyone never join soldier. Have no one in Nibelhiem but his mom and then be killed when Sephiroth burns down the village. He and his mom would still be ostracized by the village so Aerith meeting this Cloud even if she could I think she would feel sympathy for him but not anything more

 

[Sacky]

Yeah when I try to think of a Cloud without Tifa wether people like it or not Clouds whole character does revolve around Tifa since it's what made him who he is. I guess without Tifa cloud would just be more angry at everyone never join soldier. Have no one in Nibelhiem but his mom and then be killed when Sephiroth burns down the village. He and his mom would still be ostracized by the village so Aerith meeting this Cloud even if she could I think she would feel sympathy for him but not anything more

Say Tifa died though oh wait he would probably just shut down. Say Zack got him to Midgar and he did recover but then there's Zack. say theres no Zack or Zack and Aerith were never a thing but then Cloud wouldn't believe he's a soldier. The only scenario it would work in is if Aerith never died and Soldier Cloud chose Aeirth for some reason over Tifa but then Cloud never gains his true self back and probably just ends up mako poisoned after events in northern crater with no way to help him. Though I guess if he loved Aerith she could possibly help in lifestream but then why would he believe her when she wasn't there his subconscious needs someone who was with him in the memory. Ignore my late night rambling But yeah the whole story really falls apart and is so drastically different

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'll do you one better, I could describe clouds entire internal story arc as it pertains to ffvii without ever mentioning Aerith. This always sounds more insulting than I intend it, but I could replace Aerith with a random holy summoning mcguffin and the story would still be fully intact.

Yeah, Aerith being the person to summon Holy is her role in the greater narrative, but her being the one to die at Sephiroth's hand could have been taken by anyone but Tifa and Cloud's narrative would probably play out more or less identically. Why Sephypoo would kill them would take a lot more narrative massaging, mind you, as he killed Aerith because she could actively interfere with his big plan. Maybe someone noble sacrifice shoves her out of the way or something, I don't know.

Also, to come back to everything being about zack, couldn't it be argued that the og did the same for cloud? The entire premise of the games resolution is that everything that we believed was uniquely cloud was essentially received from Zack. It kinda makes everything of aerith actually being zack almost meta, it's just two zacks flirting with each other apparently XD

Well, Cloud LITERALLY took his persona from Zack, Aerith just acted like she did in OG because she wanted Zack back and subconsciously threw those desires onto the blondie acting unusually like him. Slightly different scenarios.

It's also arguable that the lifestream reveal makes it so that everything people liked about cloud and aerith, namely him being her bodyguard, is suddenly repurposed to actually be about tifa. You can always feel like that if you choose to take stuff the worst way.

I mean, at the end of the shell game you have to show where the pretty lady has always been, after all.

Anyway, I still just vehemently oppose the idea that just because you discover how a person became a certain way that that somehow invalidates it. Cc explains how aerith, the young girl, became aerith, the woman.

There is a lot to love narratively about Crisis Core. I just wish there was more variety in mission maps.

Yeah when I try to think of a Cloud without Tifa wether people like it or not Clouds whole character does revolve around Tifa since it's what made him who he is. I guess without Tifa cloud would just be more angry at everyone never join soldier. Have no one in Nibelhiem but his mom and then be killed when Sephiroth burns down the village. He and his mom would still be ostracized by the village so Aerith meeting this Cloud even if she could I think she would feel sympathy for him but not anything more

I'm not sure they were actually ostracized by the village. Cloud was on the outs with the village boys but that was because he was being a weirdo and THAT was because of Tifa, but we never get any indication that Claudia was disliked. IIRC she and Tifa's mom were quite close when the latter was still alive.

Say Tifa died though oh wait he would probably just shut down. Say Zack got him to Midgar and he did recover but then there's Zack. say theres no Zack or Zack and Aerith were never a thing but then Cloud wouldn't believe he's a soldier. The only scenario it would work in is if Aerith never died and Soldier Cloud chose Aeirth for some reason over Tifa but then Cloud never gains his true self back and probably just ends up mako poisoned after events in northern crater with no way to help him. Though I guess if he loved Aerith she could possibly help in lifestream but then why would he believe her when she wasn't there his subconscious needs someone who was with him in the memory. Ignore my late night rambling But yeah the whole story really falls apart and is so drastically different

Yeah, without Tifa bringing him back from Mako poisoning the story would necessarily be entirely different, even if Zack was alive.

 

[Eerie]

Are you just generally objecting to the existence of hypotheticals?

In this very thread, yes. We're talking canon, not "what ifs". Too many times have I seen people moving goalposts in LTDs. Yeah but what if Aerith lived in the OG? Why would the OG be different than Rebirth for that matter? It's not. Tifa doesn't exist? Neither does Cloud. It's that simple, it's also the reason why the Cloud in the other worlds doesn't wake up: because there's no Tifa around, the reason why he goes back to being catatonic in Gongaga after she falls in the pool of mako.

The story is written in such way that to me it's not really interesting to think about "yeah but what about CA is Tifa didn't exist?" because it would NOT be FFVII. I don't see the point. That's what fanfiction is for, and I'm totally OK with it there. CA in canon exist to push the illusion, CT the reality, it was so in Remake, it is also so in Rebirth. So of course you can argue that CA looks romantic if there's no Tifa around but that's missing completely the point. I'm sorry if I sound rash lol it's 1am but if you ask me, I'm probably part of the CT extremists because I don't think Cloud sees Aerith romantically, and I don't think that narratively it would work - it creates a messy story for both Cloud and Tifa; you can't give Aerith what's Tifa's, ie you cannot give her a romance with Cloud. And him calling her decisively a nakama in the church when she basically is confessing, and her seeing that they're not on the same level is the biggest proof of it.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Can't stop thinking about what Nojima said about the song, that Aerith went to write it, it was one thing, but she started to really get into it, ending up putting a lot of things, she got carried away, was overthinking, had to start over, something like that, and it made me think of the scenes before the show, the one where Cloud sees she is busy and decides not to interrupt her afterall, then with Cait Sith, also outside of cut scenes when you as player talk to her but she is busy. I wonder if Nojima was thinking about those scenes, I hope he knows they didn't go unnoticed or unappreciated in the end.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Anyway, I still just vehemently oppose the idea that just because you discover how a person became a certain way that that somehow invalidates it. Cc explains how aerith, the young girl, became aerith, the woman.

I never once said I think anything in Crisis Core completely invalidates Aerith's arc or Aerith's belongings. Yes it's still her, it's still her ribbon, her flowers etc. But in a game where she has limited screentime anyway they just could have done a lot more with her than that. And the reason they chose for how she became that way didn't sit well with many. And I explained why it didn't sit well. And the impression it gave. As I said Zack influencing her is fine giving her gifts etc. People are a product of their history which includes Zack I even wrote a blog post about this before saying I DON'T think it invalidates Aerith or ruins her character. But if people didn't like how it was handled I personally don't blame them.

However, in other aspects of Crisis Core I think they actually did a good job establishing Aerith's other sides of her personality which we don't often see. Her more quiet side which was present in OG in rare moments, we also see her fear of sky and it ties with the theme of freedom in her story. It also gave her some normalcy something she really wished for. As giving Zack get development. A-to-Z summarized really well what Crisis Core did achieve with Aerith's character and arc. These are all good things.
Before Crisis also did good things it just happened to be a mobile game but her leaving to look for Zack would have fit well in CC too.

To be very fair it provided a good foundation for their relationship. Intimate moments and established their feelings. I just wanted more of that less of Genesis shenanigans. More interactions. Stuff like that.

 

[Hellenic]

and why wouldn’t you? She seems like a good healer and magic damage dealer

I actually never really got drawn to using her for that, couse her normal attack was pretty bad and i don't think the game made the characters feel different enough to make me feel like i needed her for magic or healing either really. Other characters could handle that just fine.

That said i did use her in the mod called New Threat where they did make the characters more specialized for roles and she actually fit that caster archetype better than others.

So glad the remake series made the characters feel a lot more different and it wasn't all just based around materia setups for the most part.

 

[GamerSkull]

I actually never really got drawn to using her for that, couse her normal attack was pretty bad and i don't think the game made the characters feel different enough to make me feel like i needed her for magic or healing either really. Other characters could handle that just fine.

That said i did use her in the mod called New Threat where they did make the characters more specialized for roles and she actually fit that caster archetype better than others.

So glad the remake series made the characters feel a lot more different and it wasn't all just based around materia setups for the most part.

This reminds me that I need to check out some of the mods for FFVII. It might make for a varied playthrough since I feel like I know the OG game pretty well at this point.

As for using characters in party, I actually try to rotate frequently so that every characters gets their turn in the sun. And I do use Aerith more on occasion, mostly because I know she won’t be around in the second half of the game.

But yes, I do think there’s not too much of a difference between characters in the OG, you can essentially use anyone for anything, even if some characters might have slightly better stats in a given category.