Reminder that this is all about if we can say the writers use Cloud's relationships as narrative devices to draw the player's attention to someone (unless it's about Tifa specifically I imagine). Even though it applies to all his relationships, not just the romantic ones. Though it is a much bigger deal with the two heroines.
I mean, it's not a mystery to me. People on this page are desperately hoping the Love Triangle is already over (which does not help Tifa's ship btw, sucking out all the drama in the near-term) and so they take issue with me saying the game framing Aerith as the explicitly secondary protagonist makes that prediction unlikely. Not impossible but unlikely. Especially since the love triangle is really marketable.
Have you ever seen Harry Potter shippers in the wild, discussing how Harry and Hermione should totally get together because Ron and Ginny weren't as important or interesting? This is the same argument but even more disingenuous.
Edit:typo
Just ascribing motivations to me. You can't even repeat my argument (I mean, I never said Cloud and Tifa are not together or should not be together). This place is such an echo chamber you're still seething because I don't agree with you. But it's good to know other shippers live rent free in your head.
Your analogy is also terrible. Hermione and Harry never even had romantic undertones to their relationships, so using that angle to explore their relationship is not necessary or fruitful at all. They really were friends. Meanwhile Hermione and Ron would banter and bicker for fun like an old married couple. Which sounds like Cloud and Aerith to me... certainly much closer.
People here need to understand that I don't care what fandom baggage they have. It's not a license to be pointless.
Glad to know
@Theozilla and
@Yumelinh think my argument is disingenuous but do such a bad job at confronting that. "Agree to disagree" lol. Not that I really thought that stance was an honest one to begin with.
It was me, actually. We agree on this point.
The point about that flower, to me, is that if you agree that it's a "reunion between lovers" for Cloud and Aerith then you should also agree that it has the same meaning for Cloud and Tifa as well.
It doesn't matter that he didn't intend to give it to her, but decided to after she pointed it out ( he didn't want Aerith's flower in the first place either, but it doesn't diminish their moment to you, right?) because he gave it to her in the end, fully knowing the meaning behind it.
And I don't think Cloud really gave much thought about the meaning when he gave it to Tifa btw, but for us, the players, it can serve as a foreshadowing of what's to come if the Remake follows whats happens in OG in the next installments.
In short, to me, this is SE trying to keep things "equal" to both girls in the end.
That's a good prediction. Let's wait and see where SE is going with this flower theme this time.
btw, thanks for the explanation.
I think we having some communications problems here. You said you didn't say what I previously asked about, but then proceed to say the exact thing you say you didn't say the first place?
I may be wrong here, but that's how normally it sounds to me: If I say that Aerith wasn't the main love interest or that like...Cloud didn't love her in a romantic way, to you, it automatically means I'm downplaying her importance to the story or to Cloud, when if fact, what I'm trying to say is that Aerith importance to the story or to Cloud has nothing to do with if he loved her romantically or not.
But I think this is going nowhere really, should we agree to disagree?
The stuff about the flower is more or less identical to what I think on the important points so idc
I was tempted to just rephrase your point about love interests as "how come when I ask you X you say A, but when I bring up Y you say B?" You don't seem to get two separate questions are two separate questions and so an answer to one is not an answer to both. But I will elaborate further.
But this is why I get so tired of repeating myself. The argument I made before is simply not what you were ascribing to me. The fact that I might make a similar argument if you asked me something that was not the subject before is really not gonna change that. And I even said it's largely based on perspective toward the question rather than an ironclad position.
To get specific though, I was arguing Cloud's interest in Aerith is used to highlight her importance to the player. And knowing she will continue to be important makes it hard to imagine the devs will drop whatever drama or intrigue they could have with her and Cloud (which has always been romantic, not platonic). If you asked if I thought Aerith was the main love interest, which was not the argument we were having, then I would say yes and give my reasons.
And yes if you were to hypothetically argue Cloud didn't love her at all like that, not the same claim as her being a main love interest btw, you are downplaying her role. I don't see how that's controversial. It's arguing a subplot involving her is less impacting precisely where it concerns her.
I mean I don't even get how this would be missed by you. "what I'm trying to say is that Aerith importance to the story or to Cloud has nothing to do with if he loved her romantically or not." Yes it would. Whether he loves her or not is relevant to her importance to him. It makes her a bigger deal to him than just a dear friend would be.
This is rather strange for you to say because I often think people here want to say Cloud loving Aerith is groundless but know better. So they talk around it and try to subtly trivialize her relationship to him. I went from not being misunderstood at all to constantly misunderstood and bickered with for saying scenes where Aerith gets Cloud to do things against his nature are "shippy", and I don't think that was an honest exercise.
Anyway, as with Toriyama describing the dance battle as romantic or whatever, we have a composer describing a scene between Cloud and Aerith as "romantic"
https://www.famitsu.com/news/202005/07197062.html
"There is a scene where Cloud and Aerith walk while looking at the night sky in front of the
Suzuki Cave Road, but it's a very romantic and nice atmosphere. "
The dance battle was passed over because we cannot KNOW it's about Aerith, the only character there Cloud could be attracted to, and who is about to flood her undergarments. So I suspect some will find a way to ignore this.
Anyway, in many shounen manga/anime, it's common where the main heroine isn't the main hero's love interest... and many shounen protagonists are slow-burn or clueless type. As
@Cat on Mars said, Harry Potter even can fall to this category.
Thanks, I like what is written there. Correction, I didn't mean to certain that LTD is over there, it just seemed that way to me. First, the line "even if you do, it's pointless". Second, no CxA moments after Cloud reunited with Aerith in Shinra HQ, instead we got Aerith & Tifa's friendship is strengthened (since train graveyard tbh, that wasn't explored well in OG). Third, Zack's factor in the ending. And with post-Midgar moment would be focused on her Cetra role and her building relationship with the party, not only Cloud; LTD is certainly toned down.
Gold Saucer would still happen, it's iconic, but the dialogue may be different. First, Aerith didn't bring up about "date" in the cell anymore to be paid in Gold Saucer, considered it's fulfilled. Second, she had expressed to view Cloud differently from Zack and aware Cloud is not himself... but of course, her desire to meet Real Cloud may still there. In OG, I always view it as her completely moving on (acceptance) since she was still in denial stage (in playground and Gongaga). I bet, even in FF7R Gongaga, she wouldn't say Zack ran off with another girl as well as the perception of they weren't serious have been removed.
Heck, I even want the option of Aerith & Tifa 'date' in gondola.
FF7R gives us a view on how Aerith felt isolated as kid, despite her nature being an extroverted kid who wanted to play with everyone. And for years, despite she still made a connection with people easily, she still didn't have any real close friend. Aerith is a weird kid due to her Cetra ability and it's reasonable as she was being treated by Shinra to keep using her ability. It slowly builds a shell for her and she desired to be normal human like everyone else. And then came Zack, who wasn't just her first real friend, but someone she came to love romantically; it should be not an issue if your boyfriend influences you a lot especially he brought new happiness she didn't experience before (I know in toxic relationship, if you are so blind to love someone, he still influences you a lot to make bad things... but Zerith isn't unhealthy). In CC, even Aerith can match Zack's flirty nature. She can reject him playfully, tease him, and joke with him too!
Aerith: You can beat monsters, you're so strong.
Zack: Those things weren't tough at all.
Aerith: Beats me!
Zack: Huh? Helloooo~
That's some dialogues at their first meeting when she took Zack around Sector 5 to show him a way to upper plate. Was it the same as her present character when she joked with Cloud if she can make it into SOLDIER? Or when she said Cloud was the weak one? Even in the present, she's always described as a pure heart. This thing never changed, whether she met Zack or not. She is still adorable and Tifa somehow looked more mature than her. You even could see her FF7R personality is drawn closer to her CC one, not OG as some aspects are split to Jessie.
After Zack was gone, then come Cloud and Tifa... and the rest of the party who deeply care to her.
About the ribbon, SE might retcon it back. But even if it isn't, still Nomura stated both Zack and her mother are dear to her heart; we can assume both persons gave her: one in Shinra lab (who knows it's torn after more than 7 years before she met Zack?), and one bought by Zack (since he saw her want ribbon in the market, indicated that she might've lost the old one given by her mom).
I am just gonna say the clear inconsistency between chibi aerith and 17 year old aerith is probably just CC being inconsistent than an immensely esoteric commentary. This is interesting but I am too cynical to buy it at this juncture. Particularly since, while I thought Aerith might have been a lonely child as headcanon, we have absolutely no reason to think CC was written with this in mind at all. Maybe this works to bridge the two, and she had her sassy moments in CC but she was a very passive character in CC by comparison. Even toward her own life.
Everything else you said sounds silly. And I know its just how things seem to you but frankly it's beyond blinkered to me. "We did not get a Cloud and Aerith scene at the HQ" is super arbitrary. Along with everything else. Thinking they're gonna drop the LTD now, anti-climactically, for these reasons is wishful thinking. Particularly since so many of those "evidences" given are clearly not the final word but dramatic devices for later.
Some people were saying there'd be no Clerith in part 1 at all. Now (probably the same) people are saying Part 1 was the last of the clerith and it's "over" based on bad inferences which make for an anti-climactic resolution and deprive the writers of continuing drama or the kind of chatter they like to stoke about these games.
Really, part 2 is where one can expect Clerith-proper to "end". If this is indeed a remake we can expect to play out like the original then that should be the expectation
And it would make Cloti worse too if it's just about Tifa and Cloud not communicating until they do. That's boring. That time could be used exploring the second most important protagonist through Cloud and building tension between Cloud and Tifa to payoff later.
It also wastes an excellent romantic angle for those two. The OG did little with Cloud's heartbreak right after Aerith died, factoring that into how Tifa stays by his side and helps him would be great. But so many people who ship them don't notice that? This is why I am so comfortable saying this is unlikely, because it doesn't even help the other ship much. Which let's be honest is the basis for predicting it.
You would have to wonder why the Devs left out a lot of the Cloud and Aerith moments out of the Midgar section of the game. I know it has and should been argued that most of those moments were taking out because it kinda gave a sense of rivalry between Tifa and Aerith. In the remake I feel that those two seemed like they are BFF already. Which is a great change to be honest. Having two girls "fight" over one man who is kinda at this point in the game mentally ill is kinda bad form if you ask me.
I've said this, but not sure if I said here. And did they take out "a lot?"
I can only remember making the roof laugh much less pronounced and the jail cell scene not being very flirty at all, or even the same scene.
Alright, looks like Barrett is the default choice for Resolution, good for him. Only time any girl gets any sort of clear and factual, numbers based advantage for anything is Aerith for the Sephiroth fight, not necessarily LTD related so I suppose you could argue it so.
Going to spam Clerith things-
I am just gonna say if Tifa was favored then people would say "well she's just always by his side blah blah."
Really it's more about Aerith actually being the opposing force to Sephiroth. Rival species, rival materia, formerly written as siblings and brothers. One is Gast's natural born child, the other his "creation" in a cold experimental process. Very easy to cast these two specials as opposing forces.
But the banter is cute so that's nice.
I guess this was all from ultimania translations?
You have a point and I also analyzed yesterday. But let's analyze her monologue from FF’s 30th anniversary (official translation), then you'd know her feelings for Cloud:
(1) "I hate the sky, it carries away everyone Iove"
Confirmed by Nomura as this line is voiced up in FF7R ending. This is because the sky represents losing everyone she loved, including Zack, as CC ending depicts a scene of his spirit soaring to the sky / heaven with Angeal pick him up. Let's forget OG that depicted she's unaware of his death. Aerith is Cetra and she could sense it--CC showed us and it doesn't contradict her sensing Elmyra's husband passing away.
(2) "This is a strange place. Flowers bloom all year long. The seasons never change--my feelings never change. I’m stuck.”
I think 'strange place' refers to the church. We know her house has flowers garden so why she still goes to the church (that leads her to meet Cloud again) if the flowers could bloom naturally without her care? One reason, she's stuck... her feeling lingers there, the place where she met Zack and he always visited her. Nomura stated in CC interviews at Dengeki, that Zack always headed straight to the church whenever something comes up.
(3) "That's it. I give up! I can't stop thinking of you. Ugh, I can't stand this!"
Honestly, all these lines aren't arranged by order and I don't know which the right order is. Is this line spoken up during months after Zack's death? Or, is it still last even after FF7R ending? The implication would be different.
(4) "Helloooo~ Wake up. It's almost morning."
Pretty clear. Both Zack and Cloud crashed into her church in the same way, talk in their sleep, and she wakes 'em up in the same way, too.
(5) "Don't step on the flower."
Pretty clear. Aerith scolded Zack, and Reno & Cloud when they are fighting.
(6) "Sometimes I see someone who has the same eye. Same as you, I mean. And I wonder, should I ask: do you know him? do you know where he is?"
Pretty clear. FF7R change the playground scene different from OG, and this is an explicit reference from Crisis Core. JP lines are even the exact same words for words like when she stared at Zack's eyes. She even has asked Cloud in Sector 5 if he had any SOLDIER friend or war buddy.
(7) "I know goodbye will be hard. But when I think of meeting someone new, I still get so excited. It's cruel."
I think this is Aerith struggling with her feeling between Zack and Cloud. She knew she has to "Gotta move forwards, not back" as she stated in the playground, but it's so damn hard that she might have this motivation conflicted for so long even before meeting Cloud (Zack died 3 months before the first bomb mission). As I said before in the previous post, Aerith also stopped walking forward a while when Zack in another timeline passed her by. We knew in the future, she would meet more people... Yuffie, Vincent, Cid. Would she say goodbye again to Zack at that spot?
(8) "Stamp... Stamp! Guess, you're gone too."
We know that the Stamp in Zack's survival timeline has changed, but does her line refer to the old Stamp?
(9) "Things won't last forever. Sure, it's lonely. It's sad. But I can say "bye" with a smile, right?"
I guess this fits the narration in optional dream sequence, as well as the next dream in Gongaga that she goes to Forgotten Capital alone. Why Cloud? Because she doesn't say "bye" to Zack with a smile.
(10) "You came. Thank you, I'm glad. But you're already...."
I'm not sure about this. Does this represent the time she prays in Forgotten City that Cloud comes to her? But he's under Sephiroth's control? Or does this represent a future event in the next installment about her reunion with the Zack who survives and she knew he's supposed to be dead? Or does this refer to the optional dream sequence that she's aware Cloud isn't himself? Too many interpretations.
(11) "You're so far now. I'm so far from you. Oh, I'm rising. The sky is carrying me away. I can see you, you're crying. Don't cry, you'll make it rain."
Cloud gets a future vision and we saw he drops a single tear. But.... Is the line foreshadowing her death that would be different from OG? We know in OG, she's sunk down to the bottom of the lake in Forgotten Capital. But with all of these lines above correlated with FF7R, we'd probably get her death similar to Kadaj in AC... her spirit (like Zack) soar to the sky and both scenes are raining (although the Kadaj one is raining from Great Gospel as she heals geostigma around Edge). Her death should happen in the place where the sky can be clearly seen (whether it's clear blue or cloudy with rain), and Forgotten Capital doesn't fit the definition as it's surrounded by sleeping forest.
So..... is Aerith still interested romantically to Cloud? Seems not.
I think Aerith's feeling and role are relevant to discuss how LTD would be handled in FF7R. In OG book (I forget if which Ultimania), in her profile, it's stated that she's interested in the love triangle between her, Tifa, and Cloud lol. But you see it doesn't seem that way in FF7R. Aerith & Tifa's friendship is strengthened, Aerith's feeling for Zack is also strengthened, her role that knowing more than she should know compared to OG is more important... so it can affect how she treats Cloud. Cloud doesn't seem to waver between two girls when the other one kinda toning it down, but it doesn't mean she would stop teasing him playfully nor he would stop caring for her.
So, yeah OG LTD stands as itself alone. I think the rest of the compilation follows / more relevant to how SE depicts the protagonists' relationship in FF7R. I don't think we can use Compilation to explain LTD in OG anymore.
um, Aerith is clearly romantically interested in Cloud just from scenes in this remake... whether she allows herself to pursue him is what you're asking. Maybe she does not next game, maybe she has angst she works through. We will see. But desire itself is present.
)
When I played the OG for the first few times, I still remember feeling a much deeper emotional connection between Cloud and Aerith and even seeing them together in a romantic way, for all the flirting and everything. I don't feel or see any of that in the Remake. Not even in the few "Clerith"-scenes we get. Much more I feel a brother/sister/close friends-bond between them.
But I still respect other opinions, of course.
