SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

 

[Sacky]

God, I hope they do incorporate ACC/some sort of post-DoC epilogue into part 3, if only so I can finally be free. It feels like Nomura/Nojima want that too, lol.

I finally finished my hard mode run/platinum'd the game last night (I never want to see Chadley/Odin again in my life). And I have to say, while the game still has pacing issues up the wazoo, the ending works better for me the second time around, and I also think I understand/appreciate Ch. 14 more overall.

This is probably just repeating myself/repeating what others have already said, but just to get everything down in one place:
The "dream date" is considered part of Zack's Interlude for a reason. We cannot understand the Cloud/Aerith scenes without the context of the Zack scenes and vice versa.

The interlude begins with Zack faced with a branching path, and then a flashback to Zack asking Marlene if Aerith likes Cloud, raising two dramatic questions to be answered by the scenes that follow:
1) Does Zack make the right choice?
2) Does Aerith "like" Cloud?

Question 1 can be answered through Zack's scenes alone. There is no "right" choice. No matter what choice he makes, he dies/that "world" ends.

The Cloud/Aerith scenes reiterate this point in parallel. Zack has three "choices." The outcomes of his "choices" are intercut with Cloud and Aerith at three vendors, each who offer the player three "choices." Like with Zack, your choice doesn't matter. No matter what you choose, the outcome doesn't change. The story stays the same.

I think that's why there are two options for Cloud's dialogue in the church. The interlude also incorporates all the "choices" you've made throughout Rebirth. But like with Zack's "choices," like with the vendor "choices," they don't matter. The rest of the scene plays out the exact same way. No matter your choices, the story doesn't change.

The ending of Remake made a lot of players believe that things could be different this time around. That they could choose the direction in which the story will go. The ending of Rebirth is telling us that your choices do not matter. The story of FF7 is the same as its always been, even if it's different from how some people have remembered/interpreted it.

As for the second question, this cannot be answered through Zack's scenes alone. The question wouldn't even be posed if the Cloud/Aerith scenes weren't there to answer it.

What these scenes also do is give finality/closure to the relationship that the OG and even the Compilation lacked. Yes, Cloud likes her/wants to spend more time with her, but even if he doesn't explicitly nakama-zone her, the way he immediately deflects after Aerith questions what kind of "like" she has for him makes it clear he doesn't like her like that.

As for the question itself, about Aerith's feelings for Cloud -- the answer is yes, she does like him, but not in the way we think/Zack fears.

While Aerith never explicitly mentions Zack during the date, the game tells us for her. Even if you haven't played CCR and connected the "dream date" to her first date with Zack, Rebirth forces you to make the connection when Aerith tells Cloud to meet her at "our place" / "a place of memories" -- to which Cloud is confused, then the game immediately cuts to Zack sitting in front of the Church.

And if you think about it, this transition is a bit jarring. The beginning of the interlude suggests that Zack has two choices: to find a cure for Cloud or to save Biggs from blowing himself up. We've already seen the outcome of both these "choices," so we could assume this part of his story is done. We're not necessarily expecting to see Zack again, especially not in front of the church.

In front of the church, Zack acts as if he's been torn between three choices all along (even though that doesn't really make sense, since saving Cloud was ostensibly how he was going to save Aerith). But even if we're following his logic...we see him try to find a cure for Cloud by going after Hojo, we seen him trying to save Biggs by going to the Sector 6 reactor...now how exactly is he supposed to save Aerith by sitting in front of the church?

All this is just a long-winded way to say that there is absolutely no other story reason for Zack to be sitting in front of the church at this particular moment in the game other than the fact that the devs want the player to make the connection that, whether consciously or not, Aerith has been thinking about Zack this whole time, and that's why she's not sure what kind of like she has for Cloud.

The devs are sledge-hammering the point home in the final boss fights. We have so many party iterations: Cloud solo, Cloud/Zack, Zack solo, Cloud/Aerith...why is the Zack solo fight the only one that takes place at the church? Why not have the final Cloud/Aerith vs. Sephiroth fight take place at "Our Place"?

And then of course, look at where Zack ends up at the very end of the game.

Which is why seeing all the Zerith dooming has been crazy to me. It could not be more obvious that they're endgame. What's left is a bit of dramatic irony. We the player know the truth, but Zack does not. He'll have to wait until part 3.

And if anyone still legitimately thinks part 3 is gonna have a choose your own adventure/romance ending...just go play Baldur's Gate instead, lol.

What would be your dream epilogue scene? I really just want more confirmation of Tifa and Cloud Post Dirge. The whole gang celebrating and chatting at the bar, and maybe Cloud speaking at the church beside Zack and Aeriths grave again

 

[Eerie]

In the original I could easily see the beginnings of the romantic angle, but Rebirth very much has Cloud draw a line he won’t cross in those terms. Personally enjoy him trying to be caring to a friend who is clearly hurting while also trying to maintain his boundaries.

Not sure if it says somewhere Marlene is more like Tifa, but to me she always came off as more Aerith coded in AC, but maybe it’s the ribbon that’s throwing me off. That and she has words for Tifa and Cloud like how Aerith would tell them they’re being ridiculous

The devs have stated that Marlene wears pink like Aerith but she’s more down to earth like Tifa. Or something like that lol.

@insanehobbit: I said it that to me who had a first run with only the main quest+some sidequests, the game felt extremely CT and ZA too. Also you remind me of a convo I had with @LunarTarotGirl after Remake where she said that she thought maybe the devs were going to show that you can’t win against fate and despite our efforts Aerith still will die at the end.

 

[imach0c0]

God, I hope they do incorporate ACC/some sort of post-DoC epilogue into part 3, if only so I can finally be free. It feels like Nomura/Nojima want that too, lol.

I finally finished my hard mode run/platinum'd the game last night (I never want to see Chadley/Odin again in my life). And I have to say, while the game still has pacing issues up the wazoo, the ending works better for me the second time around, and I also think I understand/appreciate Ch. 14 more overall.

This is probably just repeating myself/repeating what others have already said, but just to get everything down in one place:
The "dream date" is considered part of Zack's Interlude for a reason. We cannot understand the Cloud/Aerith scenes without the context of the Zack scenes and vice versa.

The interlude begins with Zack faced with a branching path, and then a flashback to Zack asking Marlene if Aerith likes Cloud, raising two dramatic questions to be answered by the scenes that follow:
1) Does Zack make the right choice?
2) Does Aerith "like" Cloud?

Question 1 can be answered through Zack's scenes alone. There is no "right" choice. No matter what choice he makes, he dies/that "world" ends.

The Cloud/Aerith scenes reiterate this point in parallel. Zack has three "choices." The outcomes of his "choices" are intercut with Cloud and Aerith at three vendors, each who offer the player three "choices." Like with Zack, your choice doesn't matter. No matter what you choose, the outcome doesn't change. The story stays the same.

I think that's why there are two options for Cloud's dialogue in the church. The interlude also incorporates all the "choices" you've made throughout Rebirth. But like with Zack's "choices," like with the vendor "choices," they don't matter. The rest of the scene plays out the exact same way. No matter your choices, the story doesn't change.

The ending of Remake made a lot of players believe that things could be different this time around. That they could choose the direction in which the story will go. The ending of Rebirth is telling us that your choices do not matter. The story of FF7 is the same as its always been, even if it's different from how some people have remembered/interpreted it.

As for the second question, this cannot be answered through Zack's scenes alone. The question wouldn't even be posed if the Cloud/Aerith scenes weren't there to answer it.

What these scenes also do is give finality/closure to the relationship that the OG and even the Compilation lacked. Yes, Cloud likes her/wants to spend more time with her, but even if he doesn't explicitly nakama-zone her, the way he immediately deflects after Aerith questions what kind of "like" she has for him makes it clear he doesn't like her like that.

As for the question itself, about Aerith's feelings for Cloud -- the answer is yes, she does like him, but not in the way we think/Zack fears.

While Aerith never explicitly mentions Zack during the date, the game tells us for her. Even if you haven't played CCR and connected the "dream date" to her first date with Zack, Rebirth forces you to make the connection when Aerith tells Cloud to meet her at "our place" / "a place of memories" -- to which Cloud is confused, then the game immediately cuts to Zack sitting in front of the Church.

And if you think about it, this transition is a bit jarring. The beginning of the interlude suggests that Zack has two choices: to find a cure for Cloud or to save Biggs from blowing himself up. We've already seen the outcome of both these "choices," so we could assume this part of his story is done. We're not necessarily expecting to see Zack again, especially not in front of the church.

In front of the church, Zack acts as if he's been torn between three choices all along (even though that doesn't really make sense, since saving Cloud was ostensibly how he was going to save Aerith). But even if we're following his logic...we see him try to find a cure for Cloud by going after Hojo, we seen him trying to save Biggs by going to the Sector 6 reactor...now how exactly is he supposed to save Aerith by sitting in front of the church?

All this is just a long-winded way to say that there is absolutely no other story reason for Zack to be sitting in front of the church at this particular moment in the game other than the fact that the devs want the player to make the connection that, whether consciously or not, Aerith has been thinking about Zack this whole time, and that's why she's not sure what kind of like she has for Cloud.

The devs are sledge-hammering the point home in the final boss fights. We have so many party iterations: Cloud solo, Cloud/Zack, Zack solo, Cloud/Aerith...why is the Zack solo fight the only one that takes place at the church? Why not have the final Cloud/Aerith vs. Sephiroth fight take place at "Our Place"?

And then of course, look at where Zack ends up at the very end of the game.

Which is why seeing all the Zerith dooming has been crazy to me. It could not be more obvious that they're endgame. What's left is a bit of dramatic irony. We the player know the truth, but Zack does not. He'll have to wait until part 3.

And if anyone still legitimately thinks part 3 is gonna have a choose your own adventure/romance ending...just go play Baldur's Gate instead, lol.

Interesting analysis on the dream date.

For part 3, how do you think they should handle the ZA reunion? Is one scene at the end enough? (kinda like AC)

 

[Yoru]

Not sure if it says somewhere Marlene is more like Tifa, but to me she always came off as more Aerith coded in AC, but maybe it’s the ribbon that’s throwing me off. That and she has words for Tifa and Cloud like how Aerith would tell them they’re being ridiculous

Basically Tetsuya Nomura said she grew-up with Tifa, helping her with the bar etc. and that he considered her a mini-Tifa. But Aerith saved her from the plate of sector 7 so she'll always remember and respect her. That's why she keeps the pink aesthetic and use the same haircut. She's supposed to be both.

 

[imach0c0]

God, I hope they do incorporate ACC/some sort of post-DoC epilogue into part 3, if only so I can finally be free. It feels like Nomura/Nojima want that too, lol.

I finally finished my hard mode run/platinum'd the game last night (I never want to see Chadley/Odin again in my life). And I have to say, while the game still has pacing issues up the wazoo, the ending works better for me the second time around, and I also think I understand/appreciate Ch. 14 more overall.

This is probably just repeating myself/repeating what others have already said, but just to get everything down in one place:
The "dream date" is considered part of Zack's Interlude for a reason. We cannot understand the Cloud/Aerith scenes without the context of the Zack scenes and vice versa.

The interlude begins with Zack faced with a branching path, and then a flashback to Zack asking Marlene if Aerith likes Cloud, raising two dramatic questions to be answered by the scenes that follow:
1) Does Zack make the right choice?
2) Does Aerith "like" Cloud?

Question 1 can be answered through Zack's scenes alone. There is no "right" choice. No matter what choice he makes, he dies/that "world" ends.

The Cloud/Aerith scenes reiterate this point in parallel. Zack has three "choices." The outcomes of his "choices" are intercut with Cloud and Aerith at three vendors, each who offer the player three "choices." Like with Zack, your choice doesn't matter. No matter what you choose, the outcome doesn't change. The story stays the same.

I think that's why there are two options for Cloud's dialogue in the church. The interlude also incorporates all the "choices" you've made throughout Rebirth. But like with Zack's "choices," like with the vendor "choices," they don't matter. The rest of the scene plays out the exact same way. No matter your choices, the story doesn't change.

The ending of Remake made a lot of players believe that things could be different this time around. That they could choose the direction in which the story will go. The ending of Rebirth is telling us that your choices do not matter. The story of FF7 is the same as its always been, even if it's different from how some people have remembered/interpreted it.

As for the second question, this cannot be answered through Zack's scenes alone. The question wouldn't even be posed if the Cloud/Aerith scenes weren't there to answer it.

What these scenes also do is give finality/closure to the relationship that the OG and even the Compilation lacked. Yes, Cloud likes her/wants to spend more time with her, but even if he doesn't explicitly nakama-zone her, the way he immediately deflects after Aerith questions what kind of "like" she has for him makes it clear he doesn't like her like that.

As for the question itself, about Aerith's feelings for Cloud -- the answer is yes, she does like him, but not in the way we think/Zack fears.

While Aerith never explicitly mentions Zack during the date, the game tells us for her. Even if you haven't played CCR and connected the "dream date" to her first date with Zack, Rebirth forces you to make the connection when Aerith tells Cloud to meet her at "our place" / "a place of memories" -- to which Cloud is confused, then the game immediately cuts to Zack sitting in front of the Church.

And if you think about it, this transition is a bit jarring. The beginning of the interlude suggests that Zack has two choices: to find a cure for Cloud or to save Biggs from blowing himself up. We've already seen the outcome of both these "choices," so we could assume this part of his story is done. We're not necessarily expecting to see Zack again, especially not in front of the church.

In front of the church, Zack acts as if he's been torn between three choices all along (even though that doesn't really make sense, since saving Cloud was ostensibly how he was going to save Aerith). But even if we're following his logic...we see him try to find a cure for Cloud by going after Hojo, we seen him trying to save Biggs by going to the Sector 6 reactor...now how exactly is he supposed to save Aerith by sitting in front of the church?

All this is just a long-winded way to say that there is absolutely no other story reason for Zack to be sitting in front of the church at this particular moment in the game other than the fact that the devs want the player to make the connection that, whether consciously or not, Aerith has been thinking about Zack this whole time, and that's why she's not sure what kind of like she has for Cloud.

The devs are sledge-hammering the point home in the final boss fights. We have so many party iterations: Cloud solo, Cloud/Zack, Zack solo, Cloud/Aerith...why is the Zack solo fight the only one that takes place at the church? Why not have the final Cloud/Aerith vs. Sephiroth fight take place at "Our Place"?

And then of course, look at where Zack ends up at the very end of the game.

Which is why seeing all the Zerith dooming has been crazy to me. It could not be more obvious that they're endgame. What's left is a bit of dramatic irony. We the player know the truth, but Zack does not. He'll have to wait until part 3.

And if anyone still legitimately thinks part 3 is gonna have a choose your own adventure/romance ending...just go play Baldur's Gate instead, lol.

Some questions --

1-What's your analysis or theory regarding the reunion pin that the vendor gives Aerith and why Cloud seems displeased by it?

2-Regarding Marlene telling Zack that Aerith has feelings for Cloud, did Marlene misunderstand what type of "like" or "feelings" meant? Cause in a previous scene, Marlene tells Zack: "Aerith really likes Cloud, so she is glad he came" What do you make of that?

3-Its interesting that he does not "die" when he sitting at the church in the 3rd choice. Is it cause he didn't make a choice?

4-Aerith's expressions turns kinda sad, despite the LA/HA dialogues slightly differing. Is it because Cloud rejected her (romantically) or because she knows she will die, therefore can't continue to make memories?

Side note -- I think in the CC ultimania, Nomura mentions that Zack goes to the church whenever something comes up and needs relief. If that is the case, it makes sense why is sitting there since he is torn by the 3 choices.

 

[imach0c0]

Basically Tetsuya Nomura said she grew-up with Tifa, helping her with the bar etc. and that he considered her a mini-Tifa. But Aerith saved her from the plate of sector 7 so she'll always remember and respect her. That's why she keeps the pink aesthetic and use the same haircut. She's supposed to be both.

So in a way to honour Aerith, kinda like how everyone in AC does with the red ribbon?

 

[Eerie]

In French iirc Marlene used “amoureuse” which is more the start of feelings. Like you don’t really use that word I think to describe strong feelings, it’s the step before “aimer”. But she’s also 4 years old and Aerith herself can’t really answer that so I am not sure why people put so much weight into her words.

 

[imach0c0]

In French iirc Marlene used “amoureuse” which is more the start of feelings. Like you don’t really use that word I think to describe strong feelings, it’s the step before “aimer”. But she’s also 4 years old and Aerith herself can’t really answer that so I am not sure why people put so much weight into her words.

Some people bring up how the a guidebook or ultimania? mentioned that Marlene is mature for her age and can read emotions. The example that is used to support this argument is in OG, Marlene teased Cloud maybe liking Aerith.

 

[LNK]

I finally finished my hard mode run/platinum'd the game last night (I never want to see Chadley/Odin again in my life). And I have to say, while the game still has pacing issues up the wazoo, the ending works better for me the second time around, and I also think I understand/appreciate Ch. 14 more overall.

So many Chadley haters! Jeebus haha. Well, if my theory about him turns out to be right, everyone will get their payback with him. I think in game 3, he'll be revealed as a bad guy, or his research will be used to create a bad guy similar to Almighty Shinra

Almighty Shinra

Almighty Shinra is a superboss in Final Fantasy X-2 International + Last Mission and HD Remaster versions. He is created as the result of Shinra absorbing the pyreflies of Omega Weapon. When defeated, he can be recruited into the party. The player must release him after completing his storyline...

finalfantasy.fandom.com

 

[Yoru]

So in a way to honour Aerith, kinda like how everyone in AC does with the red ribbon?

Regarding Marlene telling Zack that Aerith has feelings for Cloud, did Marlene misunderstand what type of "like" or "feelings" meant? Cause in a previous scene, Marlene tells Zack: "Aerith really likes Cloud, so she is glad he came" What do you make of that?

She's a 4-year-old reciting the lessons in good manners her father taught her... She's not some great oracle who sees the future.

So again, it's a cute reference to her dialogue in OG... and it creates a bit of drama for the Zerith reunion. Nothing more than that.

She's met Aerith once in her life. Tifa is literally her big sister and role model. She considered her family long before she was her "mother" in AC. Do people really think she has a secret agenda and intends to make Clerith happen?

And just a reminder... She's wary of Cloud at this point in the story. She'll get to know and like him much later.

 

[Rin]

Some people bring up how the a guidebook or ultimania? mentioned that Marlene is mature for her age and can read emotions. The example that is used to support this argument is in OG, Marlene teased Cloud maybe liking Aerith.

this is what the ultimania says

So yeah it's not really that deep. She can tell Aerith is developing a crush on Cloud and she's a nosy kid who likes to spread peoples business (like most 4 year olds lol they loooove to tell anyone who will listen some gossip about the adults in their lives)

 

[nars305]

I don’t understand the importance of Marlene saying Aerith likes Cloud. We already know Aerith likes Cloud, doesn’t have much or anything at all to do with Cloud’s feelings.

I agree that it’s just meant for angst in the Aerith and Zack relationship. Probably because it’d be relevant to their reunion. As in, it’s a way to present to Zack that Cloud has a relationship with Aerith so the air is cleared on that? Maybe they think it’d be wrong for Zack not to know or something I don’t know.

 

[nars305]

this is what the ultimania says
View attachment 16313
So yeah it's not really that deep. She can tell Aerith is developing a crush on Cloud and she's a nosy kid who likes to spread peoples business (like most 4 year olds lol they loooove to tell anyone who will listen some gossip about the adults in their lives)

That’s strange. I mean, something can be drawn from the fact that she tells Cloud she won’t tell Tifa as well.

 

[Yoru]

The example that is used to support this argument is in OG, Marlene teased Cloud maybe liking Aerith.

A good example of Cult Clerith's long years of misinformation.

She says Aerith kept asking about Cloud when the two girls were alone escaping the falling plate. And she ends her sentence with "I bet she likes you"!

And suddenly... HERE COMES THE OPTIONS! Because yes, Cloud can be uninterested. So even in OGs, it can be unrequited love.

And some tend to forget the "I won't tell Tifa."

Funny how people point out that she's precocious and picks up on emotional signals of Aerith and Cloud's feelings... but don't think for a moment the way that she knows that's something Tifa must not know... is a BIG emotional signal of Tifa and Cloud's feelings....


Edit : @nars305 gets it lmao

 

[Sacky]

That’s strange. I mean, something can be drawn from the fact that she tells Cloud she won’t tell Tifa as well.

I'm surprised Zack even asked the question

 

[Rin]

That’s strange. I mean, something can be drawn from the fact that she tells Cloud she won’t tell Tifa as well.

It's just for drama & to distract the player from Aerith death flags tbh.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I didn't mean to imply he was a fake or anything, just that the Ch18 arbiter of fate Sephiroth has a slightly different agenda from and is not communicating with the sephiroth we know from OG.

I mean, not really in the end. Every manifestation/depiction of Sephiroth is ultimately from the same "source." It's the real Sephiroth's mind and goals.

The only difference is medium. Sephiroth in Chapter 18 was more forward and open with his plan but its still the same goal and mind. It's what Toriyama was talking about in the Ultimania Plus where all the Sephiroth's share the same mind/goal, hence the hallucination Sephiroth in Chapter 3 is saying things that reference and allude to what Sephiroth in Chapter 18 said.

The real Sephiroth, the true physical body of Sephiroth, is somewhere out there. What we saw in Rebirth's final chapter shows that he resurrected himself and then left north. We don't know where his body was before that but ultimately he's out and about now.

 

[pxl_pushr]

In French iirc Marlene used “amoureuse” which is more the start of feelings. Like you don’t really use that word I think to describe strong feelings, it’s the step before “aimer”. But she’s also 4 years old and Aerith herself can’t really answer that so I am not sure why people put so much weight into her words.

I just took that as the writers moving her line from when she says Aerith likes Cloud in the original game to here and directing it at Zack to help clear some confusion.

But yeah, I’m not going to put too much weight on the words of a 4-year old when the context is clearly using it for a Zerith purpose

 

[Rin]

The real Sephiroth, the true physical body of Sephiroth, is somewhere out there. What we saw in Rebirth's final chapter shows that he resurrected himself and then left north. We don't know where his body was before that but ultimately he's out and about now.

Wait what? I feel like some things in the ending just went completely over my head.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wait what? I feel like some things in the ending just went completely over my head.

Make sure to Assess Sephiroth Reborn.

Spoiler: The Assess Data for the final boss

A resurrected being who now wields unimaginable might and commands the arbiters of fate. He seeks to pierce through the layers of existence, and reunite fragmented space-time. He shall rule over the planet and create eternity.

 

[LNK]

What we saw in Rebirth's final chapter shows that he resurrected himself and then left north. We don't know where his body was before that but ultimately he's out and about now.

I agree with most of what you said, but not necessarily this. I never got the idea that he already resurrected himself. As far as I know, his physical body is still encapsulated in the NC

Edit: Ok, I see what you're alluding to. I'm gonna refrain from thinking Sephiroth Reborn is actually the Sephiroth that was in the NC. My initial thought was Sephiroth Reborn is just another monster version of Sephiroth, not actually him

 

[Rin]

Make sure to Assess Sephiroth Reborn.

Spoiler: The Assess Data for the final boss

A resurrected being who now wields unimaginable might and commands the arbiters of fate. He seeks to pierce through the layers of existence, and reunite fragmented space-time. He shall rule over the planet and create eternity.

Huh. Interesting, yeah I just checked and I can see why you came to that conclusion. But wouldn't that change a lot for part 3 if he's not at NC?

 

[imach0c0]

A good example of Cult Clerith's long years of misinformation.

She says Aerith kept asking about Cloud when the two girls were alone escaping the falling plate. And she ends her sentence with "I bet she likes you"!

And suddenly... HERE COMES THE OPTIONS! Because yes, Cloud can be uninterested. So even in OGs, it can be unrequited love.

And some tend to forget the "I won't tell Tifa."

Funny how people point out that she's precocious and picks up on emotional signals of Aerith and Cloud's feelings... but don't think for a moment the way that she knows that's something Tifa must not know... is a BIG emotional signal of Tifa and Cloud's feelings....


Edit : @nars305 gets it lmao

It seems much of the discourse is coming from people saying that Tifa and Cloud were never close as kids and Tifa made Cloud make the promise to fulfil her fantasy of being saved by a hero.

There is also discourse that in Case of Lifestrea White novel, Aerith does not mention Zack. Therefore, Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack.

Side note -- is information from guidebooks and ultimanias canon? I see people pulling up texts from 10 years ago as basis for arguments. Has any FFVII lore info been retconned in the remake trilogy?

 

[Rin]

Has any FFVII lore info been retconned in the remake trilogy?

Not that I know of, no. Ultimania's are usually pretty vague for that reason, anyway.