SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[ChaosandConfusion]

I share this sentiment aswell.

I never like when people say Clerith could have happened if Aerith never died, because I never liked the implication that came with it, that Cloud would just forget all his feelings for Tifa, which if I may suggest, shaped almost his entire personality and the person he is today. To me, it always reeked of subtle dislike for Tifa, that people refuse to see Tifa's importance to Cloud.

I kind of take it as if Tifa knew Aerith had feelings for Cloud she would remove herself out of the situation because she's so selfless to a fault.

 

[abzy1200]

I kind of take it as if Tifa knew Aerith had feelings for Cloud she would remove herself out of the situation because she's so selfless to a fault.

I think so aswell, but that doesn't mean Cloud would easily get over his feelings for Tifa, if ever honestly, she had way too profound an impact on his life from the get-go.

 

[Yoru]

I kind of take it as if Tifa knew Aerith had feelings for Cloud she would remove herself out of the situation because she's so selfless to a fault.

But there's no Cloud without Tifa. Even with Aerith around, Tifa has to fix Cloud in the LS, otherwise Sephiroth wins and they're all dead.
And to fix Cloud, Tifa has to open her heart too. Because it's the fact that she opens up to him and makes him understand that she loves him as he is, without artifice, that gives him the confidence to repair himself. So she has to confess to him, even if it's only his subconscious in the lifestream. And I'm sorry, even if it's going to upset some people here, but the real Cloud will only be interested in Tifa at this point.

And that's the whole point of this game and where the silliness of this whole LTD situation comes from. The writing of Cloud's character is far too intertwined with Tifa for it to work any differently without changing the WHOLE story.

They're literally written like soulmates. Even more now with all the Compilation stuff.

 

[abzy1200]

They're literally written like soulmates.

This reminds me, I also dislike the idea the Cloud and Aerith are star-crossed lovers.

First, never mind the fact that stars are a Cloti motif, where does this idea actually come from (from Aerith dying obviously, but there needs to be more reasons to argue that feeds into a star-crossed lovers premise rather than creating it)? I would argue that everything fell into place perfectly so that Aerith and Cloud went on a big adventure together, and that there are way more obstacles for Cloud and Tifa to overcome than Cloud and Aerith.

Almost from the very start to the very end of the compilation, Cloud and Tifa face numerous obstacles that prevent them from connecting properly. Cloud and Aeriths "romance" can only happen in a situation where everything has gone to shit, Zack is dead and Cloud is emulating him. Had Aerith not seen Zack in Cloud would she have ever given him the time of day to get interested in the first place? I honestly can't say.

The only thing keeping Cloud and Aerith apart.....is the fact they love other people.

 

[Yoru]

I would argue that everything fell into place perfectly

Yup. And pretty much when this ship died to me when we learned with Crisis Core that actually... all this fated meeting and everything... was Zack's.

He's the other side of the star-crossed lover coin. Not Cloud.

 

[abzy1200]

And that's the whole point of this game and where the silliness of this whole LTD situation comes from. The writing of Cloud's character is far too intertwined with Tifa for it to work any differently without changing the WHOLE story.

Sorry for the double post, but yeah. The devs didn't intertwine Cloud and Tifa's character arcs only to have that connection be for nothing and leave Tifa hanging for the rest of her life because Cloud was fond of another woman.

It would just be so unsatisfying, you know?

EDIT: This is unrelated to what I said in this post, but I've also seen people saying that in Dirge of Cerberus, Cloud says "sumanakatta" to Tifa, a phrase only really used between romantic partners. Can someone confirm that he does say this in Dirge of Cerberus?

 

[imach0c0]

This reminds me, I also dislike the idea the Cloud and Aerith are star-crossed lovers.

First, never mind the fact that stars are a Cloti motif, where does this idea actually come from (from Aerith dying obviously, but there needs to be more reasons to argue that feeds into a star-crossed lovers premise rather than creating it)? I would argue that everything fell into place perfectly so that Aerith and Cloud went on a big adventure together, and that there are way more obstacles for Cloud and Tifa to overcome than Cloud and Aerith.

Almost from the very start to the very end of the compilation, Cloud and Tifa face numerous obstacles that prevent them from connecting properly. Cloud and Aeriths "romance" can only happen in a situation where everything has gone to shit, Zack is dead and Cloud is emulating him. Had Aerith not seen Zack in Cloud would she have ever given him the time of day to get interested in the first place? I honestly can't say.

The only thing keeping Cloud and Aerith apart.....is the fact they love other people.

Star crossed lovers romance to me means two individuals who fell in love with each other and cannot continue their love story due to circumstances out of their control. This seems to apply to Aerith and Zack because they both fell in love with each other but couldn't be together because Zack dies, Aerith does not get closure and then she eventually dies. Aerith still yearns for Zack even after his death. And Zack's last thoughts were Aerith before he died. Its tragic for both because they are in each other's heart but couldn't be together.

EDIT:
In rebirth, not sure if its intentional but the visual storytelling of the ZA scenes alludes to star crossed lovers:
-A "dead" Aerith in Zack's arms as he mourns her while it starts to rain (gives off Romeo and Juliet vibes)
-Zack carrying Aerith in his arms
-Zack touching Aerith's hand and Aerith feeling it in the LS
-Zack saying "hello in there" to sleeping Aerith (looks like something out of a page from sleeping beauty (the prince returning to his princess)

CA doesn't feel like star crossed lovers because it wasn't a mutual love story. And even if Aerith had lived, I do not think it would work out because Cloud loves Tifa. For Cloud, Aerith's death is a tragedy because he could not save her and and has to live with that guilt.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I have to remind myself that sometimes I just have to let it go, that sometimes people are going to find characters I grew up with fatally flawed no matter what, I see the discourse on the unmoderated sites like Aerith is a "two timing back stabbing skank" and Tifa "narcissistic selfish bully" and I guess I just have to let it be, that some will always see it that way no matter how hard Nojima writes otherwise.

 

[Yoru]

EDIT: This is unrelated to what I said in this post, but I've also seen people saying that in Dirge of Cerberus, Cloud says "sumanakatta" to Tifa, a phrase only really used between romantic partners. Can someone confirm that he does say this in Dirge of Cerberus?

He does say it. But to be fair, japanese is a complex language and there's examples of characters saying it to people they're not in love with. One of the use of "sumanakatta" in japanese media are for cool/arrogant/reserved characters.

 

[Sacky]

I have to remind myself that sometimes I just have to let it go, that sometimes people are going to find characters I grew up with fatally flawed no matter what, I see the discourse on the unmoderated sites like Aerith is a "two timing back stabbing skank" and Tifa "narcissistic selfish bully" and I guess I just have to let it be, that some will always see it that way no matter how hard Nojima writes otherwise.

Always just think would the writer make them this way "theres also people who believe the earth is flat" "the moon landing was fake" we cant help people understand XD Best you can do is write the truth and hope someone more open minded sees it

 

[GamerSkull]

I have to remind myself that sometimes I just have to let it go, that sometimes people are going to find characters I grew up with fatally flawed no matter what, I see the discourse on the unmoderated sites like Aerith is a "two timing back stabbing skank" and Tifa "narcissistic selfish bully" and I guess I just have to let it be, that some will always see it that way no matter how hard Nojima writes otherwise.

Yeah, I understand the feeling.

However, I think it’s important to remember that this is still a minority and most FF7 fans don’t see these characters through a bad faith lens and at least try to discuss why the characters behaved the way they do.

Both Aerith and Tifa are great people that genuinely want to help those they meet. And while both of them have flaws and sometimes might not make the best decisions, they often come from a human place and are part of their development.

And honestly, regardless of what people think Nojima is not gonna allow it to affect his writing. He will never intentionally make Aerith or Tifa out to be a bad people.

People that see these characters through a bad faith lens, never understood them in the first place.

 

[Sacky]

Yeah, I understand the feeling.

However, I think it’s important to remember that this is still a minority and most FF7 fans don’t see these characters through a bad faith lens and at least try to discuss why the characters behaved the way they do.

Both Aerith and Tifa are great people that genuinely want to help those they meet. And while both of them have flaws and sometimes might not make the best decisions, they often come from a human place and are part of their development.

And honestly, regardless of what people think Nojima is not gonna allow it to affect his writing. He will never intentionally make Aerith or Tifa out to be a bad people.

avoid reddit and twitter basically XD

 

[abzy1200]

I have to remind myself that sometimes I just have to let it go, that sometimes people are going to find characters I grew up with fatally flawed no matter what, I see the discourse on the unmoderated sites like Aerith is a "two timing back stabbing skank" and Tifa "narcissistic selfish bully" and I guess I just have to let it be, that some will always see it that way no matter how hard Nojima writes otherwise.

let me guess, Silverwields tumblr?

Always just think would the writer make them this way "theres also people who believe the earth is flat" "the moon landing was fake" we cant help people understand XD

Yeah this is also a point I was looking to make but couldn't find the right time to bring up.

The fact that the topic is contended isn't proof that it's ambiguous, or that there isn't a definitive answer. To argue this point you would have to concede that the Earth is potentially flat "because it's a debated topic," which we all know is bullshit.

He does say it. But to be fair, japanese is a complex language and there's examples of characters saying it to people they're not in love with. One of the use of "sumanakatta" in japanese media are for cool/arrogant/reserved characters.

Judging by the context, it's probably both tbh.

 

[GamerSkull]

avoid reddit and twitter basically XD

Avoid GameFAQs too.

 

[imach0c0]

I have to remind myself that sometimes I just have to let it go, that sometimes people are going to find characters I grew up with fatally flawed no matter what, I see the discourse on the unmoderated sites like Aerith is a "two timing back stabbing skank" and Tifa "narcissistic selfish bully" and I guess I just have to let it be, that some will always see it that way no matter how hard Nojima writes otherwise.

Seeing the wholesome friendship between Aerith and Tifa was lovely to see. When people view Aerith and Tifa as these horrible people, I feel people are projecting their interpretations to support an argument that supports their head canon.

 

[Yoru]

Judging by the context, it's probably both tbh.

Anyway, my brain rot stopped at the fact that he grabbed her by the waist rather than just reaching out and pulling her by the arm. Anything he says after that is worthless. I'm already convinced

 

[Sacky]

let me guess, Silverwields tumblr?


Yeah this is also a point I was looking to make but couldn't find the right time to bring up.

The fact that the topic is contended isn't proof that it's ambiguous, or that there isn't a definitive answer. To argue this point you would have to concede that the Earth is potentially flat "because it's a debated topic," which we all know is bullshit.

Judging by the context, it's probably both tbh.

Silver is so weird because they have actual good knowledge yet hate those pink pixels to an unhealthy amount. They seriously think that the writers made Cloud despise Aerith???????????????? thats insanity and next level hating

 

[abzy1200]

Anyway, my brain rot stopped at the fact that he grabbed her by the waist rather than just reaching out and pulling her by the arm. Anything he says after that is worthless. I'm already convinced

I'm going to be honest there's too much shit on screen for me to accurately confirm this, but I'll take your word for it.

Silver is so weird because they have actual good knowledge yet hate those pink pixels to an unhealthy amount. They seriously think that the writers made Cloud despise Aerith???????????????? thats insanity and next level hating

There has to be some sort of projection, because no way they have that much information and context and yet still choose to hate Aerith that much.

EDIT: unrelated to what I've said here but I just saw someone on twitter point out that Tifa saying "Just be ready to spill your guts" is foreshadowing the lifestream sequence. I don't know if I'm slow on the uptake and everyone's already noticed it, but since I haven't seen someone here mention it I just felt that I would bring it up.

 

[imach0c0]

Anyway, my brain rot stopped at the fact that he grabbed her by the waist rather than just reaching out and pulling her by the arm. Anything he says after that is worthless. I'm already convinced

IIRC, doesn't Cloud also pull Tifa a bit more aggressively than Yuffie or Aerith?

 

[imach0c0]

Silver is so weird because they have actual good knowledge yet hate those pink pixels to an unhealthy amount. They seriously think that the writers made Cloud despise Aerith???????????????? thats insanity and next level hating

What is Silverwield?

 

[GamerSkull]

What is Silverwield?

Extremist CT shipper. Very toxic.

I’ve never seen any of their stuff but I’ve heard stories and they seem pretty messed up.

 

[abzy1200]

What is Silverwield?

They run a tumblr page that is dedicated to making arguments built almost entirely on bad faith surrounding the LTD. They are a Cloti and spend their days hating on Aerith

 

[Sacky]

Extremist CT shipper. Very toxic.

I’ve never seen any of their stuff but I’ve heard stories and they seem pretty messed up.

the Pink walking corpse being how they describe Aerith is all you need to know

 

[Sacky]

I'm going to be honest there's too much shit on screen for me to accurately confirm this, but I'll take your word for it.

There has to be some sort of projection, because no way they have that much information and context and yet still choose to hate Aerith that much.

EDIT: unrelated to what I've said here but I just saw someone on twitter point out that Tifa saying "Just be ready to spill your guts" is foreshadowing the lifestream sequence. I don't know if I'm slow on the uptake and everyone's already noticed it, but since I haven't seen someone here mention it I just felt that I would bring it up.

the lifestream has been forshadowed by almost everything XD any talk between Cloud and Tifa being referenced, even the hug in remake the water was green like the lifestream

 

[abzy1200]

the lifestream has been forshadowed by almost everything XD any talk between Cloud and Tifa being referenced, even the hug in remake the water was green like the lifestream

Really? That feels a bit like reaching, but I guess I haven't seen the water colour in that scene, if it's a vibrant sort of green I'll take your word for it.

EDIT: again, unrelated to what I was saying but I wanted to bring up something else I'm unsure about. Apparently in the remake files there are animations/character models (I don't know what to call them, I'm not well versed in that kind of thing) that are labeled "Doki doki Cloud" and "Doki doki Tifa" that are exclusive to them two. I just wanted to know if someone can confirm this since I think it would be the most ironic thing ever, since Cleriths on twitter seem to use the term "Doki doki club" (I think it's called) often.