SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

Can we talk about how super tactile Tifa and Yuffie are in the background?




Little sis' energy is off the chart !

 

[abzy1200]

Although it is true that Cloud says he's not good at dates in JP, the sound he makes after she says she knows he's bad at it is a vey grouchy/annoyed sound so I think the localization conveyed how he was feeling during that quest correctly.

It's also hardly a date if everybody else is following right behind them.

Can we talk about how super tactile Tifa and Yuffie are in the background?

There'll definitely be plenty of Tifa-comforting-Yuffie-over-her-motion-sickness moments on the Highwind in part 3, she won't just be left outside on her own this time.

 

[LNK]

Is it possible to play and enjoy these games if you hate a character this much? Lol.

Weird behavior.

I mean shit, I even love Sephiroth.

Exactly! It's bad enough that they are mischaracterizing her. I'm wondering if they have a deep seeded hatred for girls/women like her in real life. It's so crazy to me.

 

[Rin]

It's also hardly a date if everybody else is following right behind them.

I hate this game mechanic so much lol I really wish they would just limit the party to you and your quest mate

 

[Eerie]

Cloud did have a crush on Aerith. In remake chapter boxes state that Cloud's heart skipped a beat when Aerith leaned herself towards him. FF7 Remake ultimania has this to say:

Cloud arrives at the top [of the slide] and sits just a short distance from where Aerith is. Aerith closes the distance [between them] and smiles. Their shoulders just barely touching. Cloud’s face looks calm, [but on the] inside his heart was throbbing.

- Final Fantasy VII Remake Ultimania Plus

So we can see that he had a crush on her but like i said earlier having a crush and being in love are not the same thing. He had a crush on Aerith but it was just an infatuation and nothing more. His true feelings are for Tifa.

I'm kind of a dunce but if he has a crush and I keep seeing platonic love being brought up and with that ultmania quote then it seems as if he is interested in both of them in a romantic way.

The Japanese uses the infamous doki doki to describe that scene but to be fair doki doki is not always romantic either. It was used in ToTP with Tifa about a man and it wasn’t romantic at all.

Personally I didn’t take the Ultimania in a romantic way or “interested romantically” way but rather there’s this beautiful woman getting close and he as a 16 years old in his head does feel like he doesn’t know how to respond. I think at this moment he does feel attracted however she goes on to talk about Zack lol. I personally think them trying to part a minute after is cuter and probably the most CA romantic scene in Remake for me.

 

[Eerie]

This reminds me, I also dislike the idea the Cloud and Aerith are star-crossed lovers.

First, never mind the fact that stars are a Cloti motif, where does this idea actually come from (from Aerith dying obviously, but there needs to be more reasons to argue that feeds into a star-crossed lovers premise rather than creating it)? I would argue that everything fell into place perfectly so that Aerith and Cloud went on a big adventure together, and that there are way more obstacles for Cloud and Tifa to overcome than Cloud and Aerith.

Almost from the very start to the very end of the compilation, Cloud and Tifa face numerous obstacles that prevent them from connecting properly. Cloud and Aeriths "romance" can only happen in a situation where everything has gone to shit, Zack is dead and Cloud is emulating him. Had Aerith not seen Zack in Cloud would she have ever given him the time of day to get interested in the first place? I honestly can't say.

The only thing keeping Cloud and Aerith apart.....is the fact they love other people.

The star-crossed lovers comes from an ad from SENA iirc for the OG. That’s how CA was marketed. Of course CT was not marketed at all iirc.

 

[imach0c0]

The star-crossed lovers cones from an ad from SENA iirc for the OG. That’s how CA was marketed. Of course CT was not marketed at all iirc.

Was star-crossed lovers only marketing in NA? How was it marketed in JP?

On the note of marketing - the NPTK trailer heavily alluded to CA. Not sure why they would make that choice. I recall it causing A LOT of discourse in the shipping fandom.

 

[Eerie]

Yes the marketing was different in JP. I don’t remember because I have a hard time giving two shits about marketing tbh. The NTPK trailer had me rolling and saying “oh Aerith’s so dead” it was so obvious the marketing for Rebirth in general was insanely bad. Cid and Vincent’ reveals were just botched - especially Cid’s.

 

[abzy1200]

I hate this game mechanic so much lol I really wish they would just limit the party to you and your quest mate

I don't mind it that much, it certainly still feels like the quest is only between the two characters.

The star-crossed lovers cones from an ad from SENA iirc for the OG. That’s how CA was marketed. Of course CT was not marketed at all iirc.

That narrator lies in the same breath that he says "a love that could never be" anyway, by claiming that Cloud's hate for Sephiroth "always was" even though Cloud looked up to Sephiroth, he was his role model (alongside Zack, after he met him). So pretty worthless "evidence" if you ask me.

Plus, they're trying to sell a game that they spent millions on, they're not going to say "a kinda love that could have been if not for the plot twist of the game" in their ad.

Personally I didn’t take the Ultimania in a romantic way or “interested romantically” way but rather there’s this beautiful woman getting close and he as a 16 years old in his head does feel like he doesn’t know how to respond. I think at this moment he does feel attracted however she goes on to talk about Zack lol. I personally think them trying to part a minute after is cuter and probably the most CA romantic scene in Remake for me.

If you would allow me to expand on this with a personal anecdote, since I'm young and a bit shy with my feelings;

Earlier this year I was at Comic con, I worked up the courage to ask somebody who was cosplaying Tifa for a picture (thankfully she said yes, phew, if she said no I would have been devastated, and I think it would have killed my self-confidence forever.) It was an incredibly short interaction, but before, during, and after that moment I was SO nervous, and I didn't settle for about 30 minutes afterwards.

But just because I felt like that in the moment, it doesn't mean that I actually envisioned a future with that girl.

On the note of marketing - the NPTK trailer heavily alluded to CA. I recall it causing A LOT of discourse in the shipping fandom.

I'm not going to lie that trailer was the biggest bait I think I've ever seen, I almost feel bad for them.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I guess that’s the risk they take with these kind of scenes lol.

Even with the Kalm bunker thing, for the most part I took from it that Cloud didn’t want Tifa to get the wrong idea it seems. I don’t know what other way I’m meant to take his reaction.

View attachment 16372View attachment 16373

I took this scene to be her trying to spur Tifa into action, but it even that angle annoys me ( more towards the writers than Aerith ).

If you want to encourage someone to make a move, then encourage then encourage them, don’t antagonize them.

Then I remind myself that it’s probably more for levity and wink/nod at the more “katty” interpretations of the love triangle and I cool down. Overall, it’s a minor scene in a cluster of much stronger ones.

 

[Eerie]

I think she lied to cover up for Cloud and what she told him. That’s my hypothesis, she didn’t want to tell Tifa they just talked about her really.

 

[Rin]

I don't mind it that much, it certainly still feels like the quest is only between the two characters.

It does, it's just awk when they're talking about a certain character (usually Tifa tbh) and that character doesn't chime in lmao

 

[Eerie]

I’m not the only one but I really dislike the affection system, it forces you to cheat your way to get your date, and not answer necessarily what you want to answer.

 

[LNK]

I guess I don't mind the affection system. Sure one can get the "date" they want. But, there's date, and then there's date. Only one date genuinely seems like a date.

 

[Yoru]

Exactly! It's bad enough that they are mischaracterizing her. I'm wondering if they have a deep seeded hatred for girls/women like her in real life. It's so crazy to me.

What's crazy to me too is when some Aerith fans accept and encourage this mischaracterization of her. Like when NPTK came out, there were plenty who were like "No promise to keep! looool take this Tifa. I love my girl! Keep burning this b$tch!" and I thought... seriously? That's the character you want to support?

So yeah. I would like to have all those anti weirdos far away of my games. And I'm talking about the two sides.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

That'd be ignoring everything else in the text. As Rin said, it means the person you love. Can it be used in reference to one's lover? of course. In the case of CoL, it can't be though. Cloud is not Aerith's lover. Never was, never will be

How do we know Aerith wasn't in bed with Zack during CoL?

It doesn't have to mean her literal lover in that context to show romantic feelings, which is exactly what it translates to there: guy she has romantic feelings for.
It can mean one sided love or admiring someone too like a crush. But yes koi 100% does mean she likes him more than a friend there. There is no denying that.

That is why the dream date interpretation she might not feel romantically makes no sense to me. Especially when she was warning herself not to fall in love in her resolution, and especially when she seems to want Cloud to take the reunion pin. And especially when she says on her GS date I want to be with you now. Yes her feelings are conflicted but they are conflicted because yes she is interested in the romantic sense and no you can't use koibito out of romance context. But yes it can be one sided feelings. It means person you have romantic attraction for. Like the infatuation and honeymoon stage of first meeting a potential partner. But it's one step under renai which is a love that comes with a deepening relationship, the desire to stay together.

Also the devs just plain weren't thinking too much about Zack until Crisis Core. That's why he is not mentioned. But in the CC Ultimania Aerith and Zack are also described as koibito to eachother in CC while in COL White Cloud is described as koibito to Aerith. Not in the sense of boyfriend or lover. But in the sense that she had romantic feelings for him.

And she has them for Zack also. She is conflicted romantically. That's part of her arc. It's also literally her monologue she is romantically conflicted and she doesn't know what to do because she wants to move on but thinks it might be cruel to do so. She is stuck. And her date shows that too.

 

[imach0c0]

And she has them for Zack also. She is conflicted romantically. That's part of her arc. It's also literally her monologue she is romantically conflicted and she doesn't know what to do because she wants to move on but thinks it might be cruel to do so. She is stuck. And her date shows that too.

In Aerith's monologue, when she says: "That's it, I can't stop thinking about you! Its frustrating" (paraphrasing)

Is she talking about Cloud or Zack? Or is it open to interpretation?

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

In Aerith's monologue, when she says: "That's it, I can't stop thinking about you! Its frustrating" (paraphrasing)

Is she talking about Cloud or Zack? Or is it open to interpretation?

Both fit. But if we go by her "I saw him in you" line at Gold Saucer I think it matches Zack pretty well. Especially in OG she said it bothered her how she saw similarities between Cloud and Zack.

So she is falling for Cloud but can't let go of Zack. At the same time.

And I understand some people may not like that. I understand loving two men at once may turn people off. But that is literally a huge part of her arc. She has feelings for two guys at once and is stuck because of it. Which is why even her response at the end of the date is "I wonder what kind of like this is" because it's showing how confusing her feelings are. By that point she isn't sure how she even feels.

But honestly just the fact her subconscious is wanting to make any kind of dancing, photography candy, couple things date with Cloud shows that yes she is 100% interested romantically in him. Just her feelings for Zack are also there lingering and basically stopping her from doing too much but wonder about her feelings. And so when Cloud still doesn't act like he is romantically interested even when saying he'll see her again she happily just accepts their relationship as is without pushing for more. If you look at the scene she is pretty accepting of whatever he says in both versions.

At least that's how I read it. He doesn't reject her he just doesn't make any motion to step outside of friendship because he doesn't see her that way, he probably is still oblivious at just how badly conflicted she is too, because he sees it as her feelings are for Zack. And she accepts the friendship and her feelings and she doesn't need more.

Also she is gonna die so that's all she can do anyway.

Edit: Elaboration and clarification

 

[Rin]

And so when Cloud still doesn't act like he is romantically interested even when saying he'll see her again she happily just accepts their relationship as is without pushing for more. If you look at the scene she is pretty accepting of whatever he says in both versions.

Yes, exactly! I simply put myself in her shoes in that moment and quickly understood how she came to the conclusion she did about "knowing where we stand." Every person, man or woman, wants their potential partner to be excited about seeing them again.

I mean, people literally choose not to go on second, third, fourth dates because the excitement just isn't there even if there's a shared physical attraction and an initial romantic connection. That's what dating is for, anyway, so I've never personally gotten upset at Aerith for trying to figure out her feelings for Cloud through dating him. That's what you're supposed to do, after all.

 

[imach0c0]

Both fit. But if we go by her "I saw him in you" line at Gold Saucer I think it matches Zack pretty well. Especially in OG she said it bothered her how she saw similarities between Cloud and Zack.

So she is falling for Cloud but can't let go of Zack. At the same time.

And I understand some people may not like that. I understand loving two men at once may turn people off. But that is literally a huge part of her arc. She has feelings for two guys at once and is stuck because of it. Which is why even her response at the end of the date is "I wonder what kind of like this is" because it's showing how confusing her feelings are. By that point she isn't sure how she even feels.

But honestly just the fact her subconscious is wanting to make any kind of date with Cloud shows that yes she is 100% interested romantically in him. Just her feelings for Zack are also there lingering and basically stopping her from doing too much but wonder about her feelings. And so when Cloud still doesn't act like he is romantically interested even when saying he'll see her again she happily just accepts their relationship as is without pushing for more.

At least that's how I read it. He doesn't reject her he just doesn't make any motion to step outside of friendship and she accepts the friendship and her feelings and she doesn't need more.

Also she is gonna die so that's all she can do anyway.

More than viewing it as Aerith loving two men at the same time, I see it more as Aerith trying to deal with her conflicted feelings. (I don't think its a fair comparison because her feelings for Zack and Cloud are on different levels). When she writes a "final" letter to Zack, it implies she is taking a step to move on. However, she is unable to because Zack is constantly lingering in the depths of her heart whether she realizes it or not. And it doesn't help when she meets Cloud, he reminds her of Zack (which can kinda be a trigger that causes her to relapse regarding her emotions with Zack).

Having said that, I can also see why she is conflicted with understanding the type of "love" she is feeling due to her romantic inexperience. With Zack, it was love at first sight. Whereas with Cloud, she spent time with him and then something seems to grow beyond friendship from her side.

EDIT: Also -- I don't know if this plays any role towards Aerith's conflicted feelings in the dream date, but its implied she felt Zack's presence when he held her hand in his world. Which adds to her dilemma because she is trying to move on and then gets another reminder of Zack.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Th

More than viewing it as Aerith loving two men at the same time, I see it more as Aerith trying to deal with her conflicted feelings. (I don't think its a fair comparison because her feelings for Zack and Cloud are on different levels). When she writes a "final" letter to Zack, it implies she is taking a step to move on. However, she is unable to because Zack is constantly lingering in the depths of her heart whether she realizes it or not. And it doesn't help when she meets Cloud, he reminds her of Zack (which can kinda be a trigger that causes her to relapse regarding her emotions with Zack).

Having said that, I can also see why she is conflicted with understanding the type of "love" she is feeling due to her romantic inexperience. With Zack, it was love at first sight. Whereas with Cloud, she spent time with him and then something seems to grow beyond friendship from her side.

EDIT: Also -- I don't know if this plays any role towards Aerith's conflicted feelings in the dream date, but its implied she felt Zack's presence when he held her hand in his world. Which adds to her dilemma because she is trying to move on and then gets another reminder of Zack.

The issue here is that yes it's on different levels but it's still "suki" and it's still romantic feelings for both men. Koi and rennai are still definitely types of romantic love. One is just deeper while the first is more of infatuation. Like it doesn't mean she is in deep love with Cloud by this point but koi is definitely falling in love. It's not oh she had a tiny crush and she is confused. She is confused because she fell hard for Cloud.

Also if what she felt for Cloud really wasn't that big a deal there would be no conflicted feelings, she would not feel she is cruel for these feelings to Zack's memories, she wouldn't be describing Cloud as koibito and she definitely wouldn't be warning herself to not fall in love.

What she feels for Cloud is strong enough that it is causing conflict with her feelings for Zack and it has been this way since OG.

Again I understand why people may not like that and why it may not seem fair but that is definitely part of her arc that is definitely what those words describing her feelings imply too.

 

[imach0c0]

Th
The issue here is that yes it's on different levels but it's still "suki" and it's still romantic feelings for both men koi and rennai are still definitely types of romantic love. One is just deeper while the first is more of infatuation. Like it doesn't mean she is in deep love with Cloud by this point but koi is definitely falling in love. It's not oh she had a tiny crush and she is confused. She is confused because she fell hard for Cloud.

Also if what she felt for Cloud really wasn't that big a deal there would be no conflicted feelings, she would not feel she is cruel for these feelings to Zack's memories, she wouldn't be describing Cloud as koibito and she definitely wouldn't be warning herself to not fall in love.

What she feels for Cloud is strong enough it is causing conflict with her feelings for Zack and it has been this way since OG.

Again I understand why people may not like that and why it may not seem fair but that is definitely part of her arc.

My bad - maybe I was not clear. When I said different levels, I meant the koi vs ren'nai thing. One can argue that it may not be fair, but I think its human. Her arc explores the struggle of getting over/dealing with heartbreak (for a lack of better word), while potentially seeking new love. Its even more complex considering she didn't get closure for Zack.

I think its how the story portrayed Aerith's feelings in regards to her as a character that makes it messy. With context of the Remake Ch.14 resolution and her uncertainty in the dream date, because it feels back and forth. A seed was planted in the Ch.14 resolution, and throughout rebirth, there isn't really a follow-up to that. And then the dream date happens. I don't get why it took so long to resolve that arc.

 

[LNK]

It doesn't have to mean her literal lover in that context to show romantic feelings, which is exactly what it translates to there: guy she has romantic feelings for.
It can mean one sided love or admiring someone too like a crush. But yes koi 100% does mean she likes him more than a friend there. There is no denying that.

Koi CAN be used to mean more than more than a friend. It can also be used to not mean that. Taking into consideration the whole text, and how their relationship ended prior to her death, the text doesn't read that she still has romantic feelings for him. Not imo. It's made even more clear with how things play out with Rebirth in their "dream date."

And I understand some people may not like that. I understand loving two men at once may turn people off. But that is literally a huge part of her arc. She has feelings for two guys at once and is stuck because of it. Which is why even her response at the end of the date is "I wonder what kind of like this is" because it's showing how confusing her feelings are. By that point she isn't sure how she even feels.

She may love both men, but that love is not equal. She loved Zack as more than a friend. Cloud, as a friend. She may have liked Cloud more than a friend, but there's no evidence she loved him in the way she loved Zack.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Koi CAN be used to mean more than more than a friend. It can also be used to not mean that. Taking into consideration the whole text, and how their relationship ended prior to her death, the text doesn't read that she still has romantic feelings for him.


She may love both men, but that love is not equal. She loved Zack as more than a friend. Cloud, as a friend. She may have liked Cloud more than a friend, but there's no evidence she loved him in the way she loved Zack.

I'm sorry but there is already a sentence there saying she loves Cloud like a friend "yujin de ari" and there is this sentence also saying she loves him romantically too "koibito de ari". It's both.

Koi is romantic love but like Level 1. But it's technically a way to describe sexual attraction. The infatuation you feel when you fall for someone. Now what she feels for Zack is renai. Which is the next stage of romantic love Level 2, the kind you get when you're in a relationship. The first stage is koi. And renai is deeper than koi. That's why when Zack and Aerith first meet it's described as "platonikku" as an innocent love at first but also as koibito in a later stage then rennai later still. Their relationship progressed through the stages. The final stage being ai, loving unconditionally. Ai can also be for a friend or family but it's technically the deepest.

So yes her love for Zack is more established since it was a longer time period. But that doesn't make koi "love as a friend". It's still romantic feelings.
Here read this it explains it better than me. But I know enough Japanese to translate and in no way does the sentence you are saying say she loves him as just a friend, no more than a friend. It says she loves him as a friend AND romantically as well.

In English it's : "more than a friend, for she had loved him." So yeah by this point she is dead if you want to think of it is she felt that way in life, so past tense sure. But that does not change that the literal sentence very much says her feelings in life were romantic feelings and koi is a word specifically for romantic love.

Because by definition koi IS romantic love. The word that can be used non romantically is ai.

Source below "Koi can be selfish, but ai is a real love. Koi is always wanting. Ai is always giving." For example the love Cloud and AVALANCHE feels for Aerith after her death is explicitly written as "ai".

Her love for Zack (renai) is like saying deep love, true love not "more than friend".

Types of love:

15 Love Words: Renai, Suki, Ai, Koi Japanese Meanings Explained

Hi there, You might’ve heard Japanese love words like… “ai,” “koi,” and “suki.” Wondering what the ai Japanese meaning is, or what the koi Japanese …

www.linguajunkie.com

Koibito kanji vs ai and other words:

恋 vocabulary - romance?

In the meaning explanation of the vocabulary 恋, it says that the meaning of the word isn’t shared with the kanji, meaning that 恋 as a word doesn’t mean romance. However, I checked ウィズダム和英辞典 and there it translates the word 恋 to romance as well. I’m confused.

community.wanikani.com

I'm not arguing that the love is equal, koi and renai are automatically not equal but they are both romantic.

Edit: Source added with clarification.

Added explanation of the English

 

[imach0c0]

@LunarTarotGirl

Not sure if you've discussed this before but what is your opinion of how Aerith's character arc regarding her conflicted feelings was handled/resolved between the Chapter 14 Aerith Resolution scene (remake), the Aerith GS date and the Dream Date?

Do you think how Aerith was presented was too back and forth?