SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[imach0c0]

Both fit. But if we go by her "I saw him in you" line at Gold Saucer I think it matches Zack pretty well. Especially in OG she said it bothered her how she saw similarities between Cloud and Zack.

So she is falling for Cloud but can't let go of Zack. At the same time.

And I understand some people may not like that. I understand loving two men at once may turn people off. But that is literally a huge part of her arc. She has feelings for two guys at once and is stuck because of it. Which is why even her response at the end of the date is "I wonder what kind of like this is" because it's showing how confusing her feelings are. By that point she isn't sure how she even feels.

But honestly just the fact her subconscious is wanting to make any kind of date with Cloud shows that yes she is 100% interested romantically in him. Just her feelings for Zack are also there lingering and basically stopping her from doing too much but wonder about her feelings. And so when Cloud still doesn't act like he is romantically interested even when saying he'll see her again she happily just accepts their relationship as is without pushing for more.

At least that's how I read it. He doesn't reject her he just doesn't make any motion to step outside of friendship and she accepts the friendship and her feelings and she doesn't need more.

Also she is gonna die so that's all she can do anyway.

More than viewing it as Aerith loving two men at the same time, I see it more as Aerith trying to deal with her conflicted feelings. (I don't think its a fair comparison because her feelings for Zack and Cloud are on different levels). When she writes a "final" letter to Zack, it implies she is taking a step to move on. However, she is unable to because Zack is constantly lingering in the depths of her heart whether she realizes it or not. And it doesn't help when she meets Cloud, he reminds her of Zack (which can kinda be a trigger that causes her to relapse regarding her emotions with Zack).

Having said that, I can also see why she is conflicted with understanding the type of "love" she is feeling due to her romantic inexperience. With Zack, it was love at first sight. Whereas with Cloud, she spent time with him and then something seems to grow beyond friendship from her side.

EDIT: Also -- I don't know if this plays any role towards Aerith's conflicted feelings in the dream date, but its implied she felt Zack's presence when he held her hand in his world. Which adds to her dilemma because she is trying to move on and then gets another reminder of Zack.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Th

More than viewing it as Aerith loving two men at the same time, I see it more as Aerith trying to deal with her conflicted feelings. (I don't think its a fair comparison because her feelings for Zack and Cloud are on different levels). When she writes a "final" letter to Zack, it implies she is taking a step to move on. However, she is unable to because Zack is constantly lingering in the depths of her heart whether she realizes it or not. And it doesn't help when she meets Cloud, he reminds her of Zack (which can kinda be a trigger that causes her to relapse regarding her emotions with Zack).

Having said that, I can also see why she is conflicted with understanding the type of "love" she is feeling due to her romantic inexperience. With Zack, it was love at first sight. Whereas with Cloud, she spent time with him and then something seems to grow beyond friendship from her side.

EDIT: Also -- I don't know if this plays any role towards Aerith's conflicted feelings in the dream date, but its implied she felt Zack's presence when he held her hand in his world. Which adds to her dilemma because she is trying to move on and then gets another reminder of Zack.

The issue here is that yes it's on different levels but it's still "suki" and it's still romantic feelings for both men. Koi and rennai are still definitely types of romantic love. One is just deeper while the first is more of infatuation. Like it doesn't mean she is in deep love with Cloud by this point but koi is definitely falling in love. It's not oh she had a tiny crush and she is confused. She is confused because she fell hard for Cloud.

Also if what she felt for Cloud really wasn't that big a deal there would be no conflicted feelings, she would not feel she is cruel for these feelings to Zack's memories, she wouldn't be describing Cloud as koibito and she definitely wouldn't be warning herself to not fall in love.

What she feels for Cloud is strong enough that it is causing conflict with her feelings for Zack and it has been this way since OG.

Again I understand why people may not like that and why it may not seem fair but that is definitely part of her arc that is definitely what those words describing her feelings imply too.

 

[imach0c0]

Th
The issue here is that yes it's on different levels but it's still "suki" and it's still romantic feelings for both men koi and rennai are still definitely types of romantic love. One is just deeper while the first is more of infatuation. Like it doesn't mean she is in deep love with Cloud by this point but koi is definitely falling in love. It's not oh she had a tiny crush and she is confused. She is confused because she fell hard for Cloud.

Also if what she felt for Cloud really wasn't that big a deal there would be no conflicted feelings, she would not feel she is cruel for these feelings to Zack's memories, she wouldn't be describing Cloud as koibito and she definitely wouldn't be warning herself to not fall in love.

What she feels for Cloud is strong enough it is causing conflict with her feelings for Zack and it has been this way since OG.

Again I understand why people may not like that and why it may not seem fair but that is definitely part of her arc.

My bad - maybe I was not clear. When I said different levels, I meant the koi vs ren'nai thing. One can argue that it may not be fair, but I think its human. Her arc explores the struggle of getting over/dealing with heartbreak (for a lack of better word), while potentially seeking new love. Its even more complex considering she didn't get closure for Zack.

I think its how the story portrayed Aerith's feelings in regards to her as a character that makes it messy. With context of the Remake Ch.14 resolution and her uncertainty in the dream date, because it feels back and forth. A seed was planted in the Ch.14 resolution, and throughout rebirth, there isn't really a follow-up to that. And then the dream date happens. I don't get why it took so long to resolve that arc.

 

[LNK]

It doesn't have to mean her literal lover in that context to show romantic feelings, which is exactly what it translates to there: guy she has romantic feelings for.
It can mean one sided love or admiring someone too like a crush. But yes koi 100% does mean she likes him more than a friend there. There is no denying that.

Koi CAN be used to mean more than more than a friend. It can also be used to not mean that. Taking into consideration the whole text, and how their relationship ended prior to her death, the text doesn't read that she still has romantic feelings for him. Not imo. It's made even more clear with how things play out with Rebirth in their "dream date."

And I understand some people may not like that. I understand loving two men at once may turn people off. But that is literally a huge part of her arc. She has feelings for two guys at once and is stuck because of it. Which is why even her response at the end of the date is "I wonder what kind of like this is" because it's showing how confusing her feelings are. By that point she isn't sure how she even feels.

She may love both men, but that love is not equal. She loved Zack as more than a friend. Cloud, as a friend. She may have liked Cloud more than a friend, but there's no evidence she loved him in the way she loved Zack.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Koi CAN be used to mean more than more than a friend. It can also be used to not mean that. Taking into consideration the whole text, and how their relationship ended prior to her death, the text doesn't read that she still has romantic feelings for him.


She may love both men, but that love is not equal. She loved Zack as more than a friend. Cloud, as a friend. She may have liked Cloud more than a friend, but there's no evidence she loved him in the way she loved Zack.

I'm sorry but there is already a sentence there saying she loves Cloud like a friend "yujin de ari" and there is this sentence also saying she loves him romantically too "koibito de ari". It's both.

Koi is romantic love but like Level 1. But it's technically a way to describe sexual attraction. The infatuation you feel when you fall for someone. Now what she feels for Zack is renai. Which is the next stage of romantic love Level 2, the kind you get when you're in a relationship. The first stage is koi. And renai is deeper than koi. That's why when Zack and Aerith first meet it's described as "platonikku" as an innocent love at first but also as koibito in a later stage then rennai later still. Their relationship progressed through the stages. The final stage being ai, loving unconditionally. Ai can also be for a friend or family but it's technically the deepest.

So yes her love for Zack is more established since it was a longer time period. But that doesn't make koi "love as a friend". It's still romantic feelings.
Here read this it explains it better than me. But I know enough Japanese to translate and in no way does the sentence you are saying say she loves him as just a friend, no more than a friend. It says she loves him as a friend AND romantically as well.

In English it's : "more than a friend, for she had loved him." So yeah by this point she is dead if you want to think of it is she felt that way in life, so past tense sure. But that does not change that the literal sentence very much says her feelings in life were romantic feelings and koi is a word specifically for romantic love.

Because by definition koi IS romantic love. The word that can be used non romantically is ai.

Source below "Koi can be selfish, but ai is a real love. Koi is always wanting. Ai is always giving." For example the love Cloud and AVALANCHE feels for Aerith after her death is explicitly written as "ai".

Her love for Zack (renai) is like saying deep love, true love not "more than friend".

Types of love:

15 Love Words: Renai, Suki, Ai, Koi Japanese Meanings Explained

Hi there, You might’ve heard Japanese love words like… “ai,” “koi,” and “suki.” Wondering what the ai Japanese meaning is, or what the koi Japanese …

www.linguajunkie.com

Koibito kanji vs ai and other words:

恋 vocabulary - romance?

In the meaning explanation of the vocabulary 恋, it says that the meaning of the word isn’t shared with the kanji, meaning that 恋 as a word doesn’t mean romance. However, I checked ウィズダム和英辞典 and there it translates the word 恋 to romance as well. I’m confused.

community.wanikani.com

I'm not arguing that the love is equal, koi and renai are automatically not equal but they are both romantic.

Edit: Source added with clarification.

Added explanation of the English

 

[imach0c0]

@LunarTarotGirl

Not sure if you've discussed this before but what is your opinion of how Aerith's character arc regarding her conflicted feelings was handled/resolved between the Chapter 14 Aerith Resolution scene (remake), the Aerith GS date and the Dream Date?

Do you think how Aerith was presented was too back and forth?

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@LunarTarotGirl

Not sure if you've discussed this before but what is your opinion of how Aerith's character arc regarding her conflicted feelings was handled/resolved between the Chapter 14 Aerith Resolution scene (remake), the Aerith GS date and the Dream Date?

Do you think how Aerith was presented was too back and forth?

I ranted about it for like six pages lol. But basically she starts conflicted and ends conflicted but being ok with being conflicted lol. But I understand why because the point is acceptance of her feelings and Cloud's as is. She is ok with their relationship as is with Cloud without needing to go further. Without needing him to reciprocate either so she just accepts her feelings as is messy as they are. And I appreciate the messyness to an extent. Because conflicted feelings aren't so easily resolved.

What I don't like is it is very wishy washy in the sense of the back and forth leads to still no definite concrete answer after an arc that spends so much time on it.

And I wonder why they spent so long on it if the way to resolve it is basically by realizing she doesn't need to resolve it. I'm fine with that conclusion but it took way too much time. Also in Japanese it's even less of a sense of "finality" she still wonders. But she can accept in the end just being a friend. I also don't like how her resolution to me in Remake seems like she should have learned her lesson about her feelings by that point but didn't?
But that could just be because we don't have the context for it yet. So giving the benefit of the doubt there.

 

[frosty]

@LunarTarotGirl That's interesting. What do you feel about Cloud's reciprocity/or perceived lack of reciprocity through out Rebirth? Did the scenes you get satisfy you? Didn't align to what you imagined the narrative to be?

Don't mind me, but I'm so used to twitter where if Cloud blinks 3.5x in the direction of [girl] he's deeply in love, so don't dare ask what Clerith expectations were for Rebirth

 

[imach0c0]

I ranted about it for like six pages lol. But basically she starts conflicted and ends conflicted but being ok with being conflicted lol. But I understand why because the point is acceptance of her feelings and Cloud's as is. She is ok with their relationship as is with Cloud without needing to go further. Without needing him to reciprocate either so she just accepts her feelings as is messy as they are. And I appreciate the messyness to an extent. Because conflicted feelings aren't so easily resolved.

What I don't like is it is very wishy washy in the sense of the back and forth leads to still no definite concrete answer after an arc that spends so much time on it.

And I wonder why they spent so long on it if the way to resolve it is basically by realizing she doesn't need to resolve it. I'm fine with that conclusion but it took way too much time. Also in Japanese it's even less of a sense of "finality" she still wonders. But she can accept in the end just being a friend. I also don't like how her resolution to me in Remake seems like she should have learned her lesson about her feelings by that point but didn't?
But that could just be because we don't have the context for it yet. So giving the benefit of the doubt there.

I agree.

Thinking about the Chapter 14 Resolution, I can see this kinda exploring Aerith's denial to accept the reality of what her "suki" is VS what she thinks her "suki" is. Because even when she warns herself, she doesn't learn her lesson. The way I interpret the back and forth is Aerith being influenced by emotions rather than thinking it through. (kinda like the GS date, where Aerith wants a moment with Cloud "until the ride is over," although she doesn't really know Cloud and he doesn't seem to reciprocate the same feelings that she does).

In the dream date, the photographer straight up says they don't look like a couple yet Aerith doesn't think so. At the gift stall, Cloud seems displeased with the gift and doesn't it give it to her, but Aerith still takes it. Each stall they visit is met with rejection but Aerith makes the best of each moment. It feels like Aerith in a way is caught up in her infatuation/fantasy and doesn't see the reality. Its as if her subconscious (ch.14 resolution) and the environment (zack references) are trying to tell Aerith: "hey, tune into reality. your heart is somewhere else." But she doesn't get it.

By the end of it, in JP, she wonders what "suki" it is. I think at this point is where she starts to come to reality. This tells me its unresolved and is a setup for Aerith to find the answer during the ZA reunion. As I assume this will need to be addressed between the two them. I could be wrong though. Another reason it took so long? To add drama and angst? Idk.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@LunarTarotGirl That's interesting. What do you feel about Cloud's reciprocity/or perceived lack of reciprocity through out Rebirth? Did the scenes you get satisfy you? Didn't align to what you imagined the narrative to be?

Don't mind me, but I'm so used to twitter where if Cloud blinks 3.5x in the direction of [girl] he's deeply in love, so don't dare ask what Clerith expectations were for Rebirth

I'm entering Nibelhiem. Though I have seen almost every cutscene at this point that isn't her death scene. I wanted to experience that myself. In the main story neither of them are really too focused on romance but we know in context Aerith fell for Cloud. Still, the game doesn't exactly show that until her dates though. It's like her attraction to him is in a vacuum. So I think the scenes were fine? Enough to keep CA shippers happy. But I didn't feel about them as deeply as I felt about some scenes in Remake.

And as for Cloud. Dude is oblivious. In the Japanese version of the Costa Del Sol date he says he is bad at dates so you can think aww he is nervous but for the whole "date" he treats it like a mission and is upset she says the date could be better. Because he doesn't see it as a romantic outing but as a mission he is failing basically. It was cute how he agreed to ride a chocobo with her next time. It was also cute on their Cosmo Canyon date when he giggled while snapping photos.

The GS date is very sweet but he is definitely thinking about her feelings for Zack there. The other scenes such as after her death scene I don't read romance into them.

So in general there is definitely stuff targetted towards people who like seeing Aerith and Cloud interact...And it is contained to it's own moments. I'm okay with it. Albeit disappointed in certain things, not completely unsatisfied. But as I said before in the background it's just so obviously building up Zerith and Cloti. So I saw it as giving Aerith fans some moments and not like the whole thing was this big romantic fest or anything. There were sweet moments for sure.

But they also took moments out from OG "I'm... We're here for you, right?" And I also don't know about other Cleriths but I don't like Aerith sitting on the water tower. I don't like it because I want her to have moments that are "hers and Cloud's". I don't want Tifa's moments. I never asked for that. But a lot of moments not all they gave them reference something else like her dream date is not completely hers and Cloud's because Zack is basically in the background. Stuff like that. In the sense Remake had more of the iconic moments like the rooftop walk and the scene where they say goodbye at the Park. And those moments are exclusively theirs.

This game had some sweet moments like the sunset talk at Costa and the Cosmo Canyon photo thing and stuff. But I was missing some iconic OG scenes like her talking about wanting to ride an airship etc.

Overall it's fine? I'm not really disappointed? But also not particularly impressed however.

 

[overheat28]

I personally don't understand the point of splitting hairs over how romantic Aerith's feelings towards Cloud are/were.

Wanting to find the real Cloud and actually finding him are very different things and she never succeeds in the latter, not even on the dream date. Some iteration of her in the chapter 14 resolution seems to know her feelings were never real due to this. This is why I believe resolution Aerith comes later than dream date Aerith. It only makes sense to me that resolution Aerith has context from dream date Aerith in regards to her feelings.

So for me it all comes down to this - what about Cloud is actually attracting her in the first place? Zack's mirage. When does she actually get past this and find the real Cloud to fall for (instead of just saying it)? Not on the dream date which might as well take place in a Zack themepark. Real Cloud only seems to come out momentarily during the photographer session and, very tellingly, this part of the date takes place under the watchful eye of the Zack coded Stamp banner. Cloud's back to "normal" at the church. This date was her last chance and she tries very hard to make it work. She fails.

So, of course she's not sure where her feelings stand, she has no clue who the real Cloud is in life. And she will never get the chance. She knows what she sees is not the whole picture and seems to accept she will never see it. This is obviously rehashing a lot of old arguments, but to me it doesn't really get any simpler than that. Real romantic feelings or not, I fail to see how it pertains to the real Cloud who only Tifa will find. Aerith is living a lie right up to the end, putting it bluntly. If she's going to continue with the illusion in the lifestream, then it's quite a disservice to her character.

All this should be resolved in part 3 when she meets back up with Zack. If they're serious about unifying the Compilation in a satisfactory way, CoLW should also be put to rest here. If not, then accusations of hack writing are justified, imo. Questions about the commercial value of the LTD to Square should logically follow. They tried to have their cake and eat it with Rebirth. It won't hold water with part 3, time to pick a damn lane.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

The thing is also if we pay close attention nowhere in Rebirth do we actually see Aerith's feelings change over time, we don't really see her fall for Cloud. It's in a vaccum and brought up when it needs to be, the rest of the time the plot goes on without so much as touching on it. When her feelings need to be referenced they are. We are told her feelings, we see her invite him on the GS dates we see her singing with him and others in mind. We see her admitting she likes him but literally nowhere did the story show us where she fell for him. We don't exactly see Aerith's feelings in this or her thoughts.

This doesn't mean she didn't fall for Cloud or anything but it tells me that the purpose of that whole plot set up is not there for Aerith to fully explore her feelings or discover anything about herself. Which is why I wonder why such an arc took so much of her screen time.

We also nowhere in the game see moments where she is seeing Zack in him. We don't see her struggling with her memory of Zack or comparing Cloud to him.

Because in general this arc is to serve the mystery of who Cloud is. It as I have been saying this part of Aerith's arc is not entirely in service to Aerith herself. In Remake it was. Here in Rebirth though it feels like a plot device, like a tool for set up. We don't see her conflicted feelings as except for when the scene needs to show it.

And that's in general what bothers me. These scenes could have deep dived into Aerith's conflicted feelings throughout, they could have shown her falling for Cloud how that made her feel etc.

But her feelings aren't brought up in service to her till maybe the dream date and even then it's basically serving as set up for stuff more than it feels like an actual character moment.

Her deep character moments in Rebirth seem to be the ones that aren't romance focused except for again the church scene at the end. But the dream date besides that seem to be set up for her fate, for Zack's role and her giving Cloud the White Materia.

 

[imach0c0]

The thing is also if we pay close attention nowhere in Rebirth do we actually see Aerith's feelings change over time, we don't really see her fall for Cloud. It's in a vaccum and brought up when it needs to be, the rest of the time the plot goes on without so much as touching on it. When her feelings need to be referenced they are. We are told her feelings, we see her invite him on the GS dates we see her singing with him and others in mind. We see her admitting she likes him but literally nowhere did the story show us where she fell for him. We don't exactly see Aerith's feelings in this or her thoughts.

This doesn't mean she didn't fall for Cloud or anything but it tells me that the purpose of that whole plot set up is not there for Aerith to fully explore her feelings or discover anything about herself. Which is why I wonder why such an arc took so much of her screen time.

We also nowhere in the game see moments where she is seeing Zack in him. We don't see her struggling with her memory of Zack or comparing Cloud to him.

Because in general this arc is to serve the mystery of who Cloud is. It as I have been saying this part of Aerith's arc is not entirely in service to Aerith herself. In Remake it was. Here in Rebirth though it feels like a plot device, like a tool for set up. We don't see her conflicted feelings as except for when the scene needs to show it.

And that's in general what bothers me. These scenes could have deep dived into Aerith's conflicted feelings throughout, they could have shown her falling for Cloud how that made her feel etc.

But her feelings aren't brought up in service to her till maybe the dream date and even then it's basically serving as set up for stuff more than it feels like an actual character moment.

Her deep character moments in Rebirth seem to be the ones that aren't romance focused except for again the church scene at the end but that is set up for Zack's role and her giving Cloud the White Materia.

I agree.

Thought I can see how the purpose of Aerith's feelings serves more of a plot device to fuel the mystery, I think its a disservice to Aerith's character arc from a storytelling POV.

The dream date can be jarring and almost out of left field. Sure, we get an info dump in the GS date, but that's optional and happens in the last 2 chapters of the story. And even if the Aerith route is taken, I'd argue the player is not given enough information on how and when her feelings developed prior to that. Seeing as her conflicted feelings are a part of her character arc (esp with the seed that was planted in the ch.14 resolution scene), it would have made more sense to include scenes that explore this in the main story or drop hints as opposed to being hidden in optional scenes as its missable for those who do not take the Aerith route (in remake and rebirth).

I'd argue that the Aerith Ch.14 resolution scene and the Aerith GS date are the most significant scenes of all the options, due to the weight it carries for Aerith's character development. The "I'm trying so hard to find you" line is quite significant because of two reasons: It hints at Cloud's identity crisis AND it provides the player with some context to Aerith's conflicted feelings between Zack and Cloud. Its surprising its an optional scene. It would have been a great addition if it could've been added to the main scenario somehow because of how mysterious and tragic that line is.

Also, Aerith's feelings are complex and needs context to fully understand it. Which is why I think the interpretation of her feelings gets lost in translation. There is ambiguity but it actually makes sense and its not as complicated as people make it out to be. The problem is that the main story doesn't provide any character development regarding Aerith's feelings, so it really relies on these optional scenes as well as player interpretation. However, due to the complexity and ambiguity of Aerith's feelings, player interpretation isn't reliable because it can cause misinterpretations without the proper context. Not every player is going to experience Aerith's character arc within the story and be able to see the bigger picture. (unless they go actively looking for it or through luck, get her optional scenes).

Having said all that, we still have a part 3. So if all this ambiguity means for an even greater payoff that serves Aerith's character arc, I'll take it.

EDIT: side note -- having an understanding of koi VS ren'nai is also useful information to have in order to understand the nuance of Aerith's feelings.

 

[ChaosandConfusion]

Did the devs ever say why they wanted to not leave things up to interpretation with the new stuff?
Because outside of the lifestream scene in og, I definitely thought clerith was pushed harder.
Things being spread across different medium doesn't help.(still need to play remake)

 

[GamerSkull]

Did the devs ever say why they wanted to not leave things up to interpretation with the new stuff?
Because outside of the lifestream scene in og, I definitely thought clerith was pushed harder.
Things being spread across different medium doesn't help.(still need to play remake)

Personally, I found Clerith pushed in the first half, Cloti in the second. And so in a way, I view Clerith as the red herring romance.

Afterwards, we get Tifa’s devotion to Cloud when he’s sick, the LS sequence, the Highwind scene (which regardless of affinity is a mutual confirmation of feelings, just done very subtle).

Clerith isn’t much pushed post-death imo. People like citing the ending sequence but when Cloud reaches out to Aerith, she is suddenly replaced with Tifa (once again, affirming the true love interest was not the one you would usually expect) and then when Cloud is stating they can see Aerith again in the Promised Land, he is really just meaning that if they die, they will reunite with their loved ones but is specifically referring to Aerith when he says this, to which Tifa agrees. This is because they might die to Meteor soon. (Because think about it, could you really imagine Cloud saying to Tifa “Yeah so I’ve basically chosen her instead of you” when they are potentially minutes away from death. Seems kinda cruel… and then why would Tifa say to let’s go see her together?)

Then we got post-OG stuff which essentially implies they are together (although Square is vague because they probably still wanted to sell merch and make money off both ships)

This is just my perspective on the OG. You’ll find with Cloti, that actions signify their relationship more than words. You may notice a bit of this when you play Remake as Cloud and Tifa do a lot of physical touching in that game. I still recommend playing Crisis Core before it though now that you’ve played the OG.

As for why the devs chose to make this less subtle this time around, they haven’t confirmed it but I expect that… it’s easier to be vaguer with polygons. And so, doing a lot of the same scenes need that extra gravitas to work in modern graphics and voice acting. It would be harder to do something like the LS sequence without overt romantic implications, whereas with polygons and text… it might be less overt.

 

[Eerie]

The OG also had the NC scene where Cloud goes “only your opinion matters Tifa”, which definitely surprised me in my first run. This sentence is so important and so many people miss this but basically it shows that Cloud is only able to hang on because Tifa believes in him. He is able to believe he exists because Tifa believes so.

That’s how messed up he is by Jenova and how important Tifa is to Cloud. And it’s shown in game in Remake (with the slums lessons for example, or when she saves him after his fight against Rufus), but also in Rebirth where he goes back in a catatonic state after she falls in the Lifestream (where I wonder if that’s the reason why Sephiroth stopped trying to kill Tifa, or if he was satisfied with how he was able to manipulate Cloud in front of Tifa anyway). We also see how she is able to ground him even in ToA where he’s seriously lost it, except at the very end when Sephiroth appeared. And in a more minor way, he gets pissed in Under Junon because Tifa talks about Emilio and Cloud didn’t want to hear about him, he wanted to talk about themselves only (which happens later on).

So there’s this whole arc where basically Cloud can’t even be if Tifa isn’t around. It’s because of her that he awakes from his mako poisoned state twice in the OG (at the train station and at Mideel in the LS scene). We don’t have the details yet fir the Re trilogy, but in these other worlds where there’s no Tifa, well, Cloud doesn’t awake either, and then he goes back to this state in Gongaga, although not fully.

Cloti does run really deep in how much Cloud needs Tifa, it’s literally his character and how he’s been built. Now a lot of people have caught on how Cloud was in love with Tifa but the game did a good job in hiding just how much he does love her.

 

[Ryeleigh]

We also nowhere in the game see moments where she is seeing Zack in him. We don't see her struggling with her memory of Zack or comparing Cloud to him.

I saw this compilation picture of Cloud sharing Zack's mannerisms somewhere on this site, which I thought was cool. It would've been cool to see Aerith struggle with it in-game, too, because I imagine seeing that would've been so uncanny and uncomfortable, lol.

 

[Sacky]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1785473541481082920

This without the music feels to me like what Clouds real voice could be like all the time in part 3

 

[pringlessingles]

I agree.

Thought I can see how the purpose of Aerith's feelings serves more of a plot device to fuel the mystery, I think its a disservice to Aerith's character arc from a storytelling POV.

The dream date can be jarring and almost out of left field. Sure, we get an info dump in the GS date, but that's optional and happens in the last 2 chapters of the story. And even if the Aerith route is taken, I'd argue the player is not given enough information on how and when her feelings developed prior to that. Seeing as her conflicted feelings are a part of her character arc (esp with the seed that was planted in the ch.14 resolution scene), it would have made more sense to include scenes that explore this in the main story or drop hints as opposed to being hidden in optional scenes as its missable for those who do not take the Aerith route (in remake and rebirth).

I'd argue that the Aerith Ch.14 resolution scene and the Aerith GS date are the most significant scenes of all the options, due to the weight it carries for Aerith's character development. The "I'm trying so hard to find you" line is quite significant because of two reasons: It hints at Cloud's identity crisis AND it provides the player with some context to Aerith's conflicted feelings between Zack and Cloud. Its surprising its an optional scene. It would have been a great addition if it could've been added to the main scenario somehow because of how mysterious and tragic that line is.

Also, Aerith's feelings are complex and needs context to fully understand it. Which is why I think the interpretation of her feelings gets lost in translation. There is ambiguity but it actually makes sense and its not as complicated as people make it out to be. The problem is that the main story doesn't provide any character development regarding Aerith's feelings, so it really relies on these optional scenes as well as player interpretation. However, due to the complexity and ambiguity of Aerith's feelings, player interpretation isn't reliable because it can cause misinterpretations without the proper context. Not every player is going to experience Aerith's character arc within the story and be able to see the bigger picture. (unless they go actively looking for it or through luck, get her optional scenes).

Having said all that, we still have a part 3. So if all this ambiguity means for an even greater payoff that serves Aerith's character arc, I'll take it.

EDIT: side note -- having an understanding of koi VS ren'nai is also useful information to have in order to understand the nuance of Aerith's feelings.

Personally, my theory is that the dream date aerith is the OG aerith from the OG games. She's been hiding in the lifestream and is the reason why at the beginning of remake aerith has the memories of the previous game. The dream date was a risk she had to take in order to give remake aerith the white materia to perform holy. The materia also performs a double duty of giving aerith the memories of OG aerith. Sephiroth says during the date, "so this is where you've been hiding". This indicates to me he's been looking for this particular version of Aerith. OG aerith would be his biggest obstacle as she has the most knowledge and can pass it to other aeriths if necessary. We see in the novel that Aerith is also hiding from sephiroth. It states she senses him but that he's dangerous and she shouldn't get close. Her date with cloud here is a serves as a way to give cloud the materia but also a final goodbye from OG aerith to cloud. Seph by the end comes for her and I think kills her. She doesn't return to the lifestream, that's it for her he destroys her spirit or soul. That's why the it's been fun line hurts so much to me. OG aerith has gotten an oppurtunity to actually see cloud develop before everything.

I do believe OG aerith has feelings for cloud and I believe this is confirmed in the Lifestream White 1 section. In it cloud is called her beloved, or a more direct translation would be sweetheart or lover. The writing is a little weird in the novel, we don't know if its like the narrator saying cloud is the beloved of aerith or if the feeling is more reciprocated as in they both love each other. I prob lean more towards the latter cuz I feel devs really want to keep ships non-canon. Heres a reddit post unrelated to FF7 that discusses the word but redditors all say that the word, "koibito" is never used non-platonically, only romantically. Sucks for Zack but idk could be wrong.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/sy1s6z
This could explain why aerith is so forward and bold in remake. She has already fallen for cloud cuz shes seen everything the OG aerith has. Rebirth is where she loses it and she almost reverts to the aerith before the memories. She has all the moments she shared with cloud in the remake, but the context behind them is now missing.

I'm of the opinion that devs really shouldn't pick a canon ship. It's a lot of hate for what amounts to not much in terms of storytelling. What I really want to see is in part 3, Aerith being able to live. I personally think cloud made a version of her by blocking the sword and she'll prob be available to party with in the final battle when the worlds merge. We haven't gotten her final limit break so this is one logical way to do it. I'm curious to know if people are ok with the ending changing and her being alive. I get that a lot of people hold the OG's themes dear but remake has changed so much that I think we can explore a new, more optimistic theme of fate not being set in stone. From what I've gathered most fans wouldn't be mad at a new happier ending, just fail to see how it can be executed well.

 

[abzy1200]

I'm of the opinion that devs really shouldn't pick a canon ship. It's a lot of hate for what amounts to not much in terms of storytelling. What I really want to see is in part 3, Aerith being able to live. I personally think cloud made a version of her by blocking the sword and she'll prob be available to party with in the final battle when the worlds merge. We haven't gotten her final limit break so this is one logical way to do it. I'm curious to know if people are ok with the ending changing and her being alive. I get that a lot of people hold the OG's themes dear but remake has changed so much that I think we can explore a new, more optimistic theme of fate not being set in stone. From what I've gathered most fans wouldn't be mad at a new happier ending, just fail to see how it can be executed well.

before I say anything, welcome!

anyway, they've already picked a canon ship, at this point they have leant too far into Cloti for a Clerith or neutral story to make Cloud come across as anything but an ass. If there isn't a Cloti conclusion of this story then why did the devs basically make a satellite love interest only to not even give her that much? That a couple weeks with Aerith suddenly undid all the feelings Cloud had for Tifa and he proceeds to live with her as roommates for the rest of his life, sleeping in the same bed as her and basically leading her on?

I don't buy it, not for a second.

and also, I always find it odd when people bring up that Aerith didn't get her final weapons or limit breaks, like okay? Nobody did. Where's ultima? where's omnislash? where's final heaven etc. or am I just missing the point?

EDIT: also, I'm not a huge fan of undermining the central themes of something for the sake of "look guys, happy ending!" That isn't the game I've grown to love, I'm a fan of Final Fantasy 7, not Final Fanfiction 7.

 

[Eerie]

Idk what you’re on because CT has been canon since 97 lol?

 

[Sacky]

Idk what you’re on because CT has been canon since 97 lol?

It is but I can't lie they left it ambiguous for so long and half the answers are in Japanese books. Now with remake trilogy it's more clear but I will never understand why they couldn't just say Tifa is his wife in AC. They implied it with family they showed the ring, the quote about her being his important woman. Why can't they just say it XD

 

[AncientGrimoire]

I'm of the opinion that devs really shouldn't pick a canon ship. It's a lot of hate for what amounts to not much in terms of storytelling. What I really want to see is in part 3, Aerith being able to live. I personally think cloud made a version of her by blocking the sword and she'll prob be available to party with in the final battle when the worlds merge. We haven't gotten her final limit break so this is one logical way to do it. I'm curious to know if people are ok with the ending changing and her being alive. I get that a lot of people hold the OG's themes dear but remake has changed so much that I think we can explore a new, more optimistic theme of fate not being set in stone. From what I've gathered most fans wouldn't be mad at a new happier ending, just fail to see how it can be executed well.

I think it is arguably a mistake to view it as “the developers picking a canon ship”, or it not amounting to much in terms of storytelling when, in Part 3, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship does become the story. Like things don’t move forward at all until after Tifa is able to successfully repair Cloud’s mind and memories. And Tifa is at the heart of all of that. It’s when their relationship does amount to a lot in terms of the storytelling, and it really has nothing to do with shipping at this point.

It wouldn’t be them picking Cloti as a canon ship at all. It would simply be them following the story as per the original. And if they do, as you say, receive a lot of hate for going in this direction well, I’m sorry but those who would respond in hate to this only have themselves to blame.

The developers have been painfully transparent about their intentions in terms of following the original, and not deviating too far from that course.

Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is a natural and organic part of the story, and especially in Part 3. It’s all in the original.

If one hates the fact they follow through on their established aims, then that’s on them for not only ignoring what they have been saying ad nauseam, but for ignoring the original, and frankly, ignoring all the groundwork laid down in Rebirth itself to facilitate the Cloud and Tifa moments to come in Part 3.

One could even make a case that, in terms of shipping, a ship has been “canonised”, in only so much as only one of the two women got a kiss from Cloud on their Gold Saucer date.

As for Aerith living, I personally do agree that I for one wouldn’t be upset at her getting her chance at a happy ending if it can be executed well.

But given how Rebirth depicted things I don’t see Aerith being alive, at least certainly not in the world Cloud and the others are in. And her happy ending doesn’t lie with Cloud. Nothing narratively, or in the storytelling, sets this up for Part 3. What has been set up to the point it feels arguably over sign posted at this point, is a reunion, romantic or otherwise, with Zack.

As to whether you or others would see this as a suitably happy ending for Aerith, everyone’s mileages vary, and I understand the desire to see Aerith’s happy ending lie with Cloud. If I felt Rebirth had set this up and was leaning towards it, I would admit it, under the caveat that this would be a significant change from the original.

As it happens I don’t think this is the case, as I’ve explained above.

 

[frosty]

I'm curious to know if people are ok with the ending changing and her being alive. I get that a lot of people hold the OG's themes dear but remake has changed so much that I think we can explore a new, more optimistic theme of fate not being set in stone

Welcome! But....

No. I don't want her back alive for the same reason I don't want Joel, or Brok, or Rost or Varl or Joshua, or Aerith, or Jessie, or Biggs or Wedge or Zack alive or other infamous video game deaths to be reversed. They served their purpose.

The problem with people who want a change in the deaths is they don't really want a new optimistic take on fate. They JUST want Aerith to be an option for Cloud to "get together with"

Say the new optimistic change in fate happens. Will shippers be happy if both Zack and Aerith are now alive? Will it be otome ffvii where all alive characters get to explore a love square? Will Jessie now be free to pursue Cloud as heavily as she did in Remake? Aerith lives! supporters can never answer the question "If Aerith lives, so Zack should be able to fight fate and live too"

If that happens and the story opens the option up for alive Zack and Aerith to reunite, settle in Gongaga, I can bet you 100% the advocates of Aerith lives! would be "b... but not like that"

 

[Sacky]

before I say anything, welcome!

anyway, they've already picked a canon ship, at this point they have leant too far into Cloti for a Clerith or neutral story to make Cloud come across as anything but an ass. If there isn't a Cloti conclusion of this story then why did the devs basically make a satellite love interest only to not even give her that much? That a couple weeks with Aerith suddenly undid all the feelings Cloud had for Tifa and he proceeds to live with her as roommates for the rest of his life, sleeping in the same bed as her and basically leading her on?

I don't buy it, not for a second.

and also, I always find it odd when people bring up that Aerith didn't get her final weapons or limit breaks, like okay? Nobody did. Where's ultima? where's omnislash? where's final heaven etc. or am I just missing the point?

EDIT: also, I'm not a huge fan of undermining the central themes of something for the sake of "look guys, happy ending!" That isn't the game I've grown to love, I'm a fan of Final Fantasy 7, not Final Fanfiction 7.

I think the weapon argument is because it would suck to not have the characters have their limit breaks since Aerith could get it in OG. I do think there could be playable sections for Aerith in part 3 and obviously VR battles with all characters. But weapons aren't related to the story since we all assume Cloud is just using the buster sword when he's using another sword anyway.