SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

Idk. ACC is kind of triggering for me as a woman because Tifa is also depressed, she's also dealing with raising/taking care of a terminally ill kid, she's also got PTSD and suffers from nightmares, and she's also grieving but she doesn't have the privilege to walk out of the bar one day and never come back while ignoring the phone calls of her friends and family.

I just wanted to say I felt the same after rewatching it. I’m glad Cloud moved on but I said here before it made me mad at Cloud.

 

[Yoru]

What does "entertained" mean in this context? I'm genuine when I say I'm not sure how to read that.

I will say that the view that "we did the depression plot why are we doing it again" bugs me. Depression isn't something you beat once and never deal with again. The very fact that you struggled with it is itself a source of depression to bring you down again later. If you just mean you didn't enjoy seeing it, otoh, that's purely subjective and valid.

Yes. More of the later. Sorry, english is not my main language obvisouly so I lack vocabulary some times. The mental illness of Cloud is something that makes this character interesting to me. That's why he's so special and I cherish it. I just needed to see something else. A sort of "My boy suffered enough" and I'm not enjoying watching him suffer again. Even more so if it's for the wrong reasons. And the itw of Nomura asking Nojima for a script with a depressive Cloud "because that's how people remember it" sorry but for me it's disrespectful. It's making a business out of other people's misfortune. I'm using some pretty strong language for just a piece of fiction. But I'm trying to make you understand my point of view as much as possible.

And I insist once again. I don't want to minimize the subject of depression. Never. We won't agree in the end but I really think the first depiction of his depression in Advent Children was "clumsy" and not totally in accordance with Cloud as a character. Obvisouly, everyone is free to deal with their depression as they see fit. I'm not judging it.

If I'm reading you right, your points still apply to ACC, just less so than AC

ACC adds a lot more context that helps me understand what Cloud he's going through and why he chose to do it this way. So even if it's not the story I wanted to see, I made my peace and I find this depiction of Cloud's depression way more respectful. You can't ask me to accept a bad behavior just because it's Cloud Strife. You have to explain to me what really happened to him. And that's not what the first movie did.

 

[Eerie]

@Eerie @Yoru

In order to remove any ambiguity, do you think ZA should also have a romantic scene? Or, is Aerith telling Zack her feelings without any of the romantic stuff enough to get the message across? (In the scenario CT have a romantic scene)

I will say it I think we will be shown the ZA reunion and we will see the closure on Aerith’s feelings for Cloud. It won’t be all flowers because they are dead but we’ll be given the answer as to why Zack is always by her side.

I’ve always been of the opinion that the ZA reunion was a missing scene key in understanding Aerith’s feelings and her relationship with both Zack and Cloud. ACC’s ending was clearly romantically connoted, but we lacked something more tangible as the last we saw of Aerith was in CoLW and she still seemed to harbour feelings for Cloud. Now that Zack has been informed of her feelings for Cloud, it’s even more necessary for his character.

So I think the Re trilogy is going to cover this as it will give everyone a satisfying ending from the characters’ standpoints.

 

[Yoru]

@Eerie @Yoru

In order to remove any ambiguity, do you think ZA should also have a romantic scene? Or, is Aerith telling Zack her feelings without any of the romantic stuff enough to get the message across? (In the scenario CT have a romantic scene)

If they're really going for a Cloti ending and show it without ambiguity (tl;dr each of them using the term "LOVE" and not some "Like and Liking" shenanigans) I think the ZA romantic scene is not really useful.

It will hammer down the canon yes. "Cloti is real and never was in danger because Zerith is real too" kind of thing.

But is it really useful ? No. The moment Cloud is clear about his feeling for Tifa, nothing else matters.

However. Yes, we need the ZA reunion. Not from a LTD pov. But as an ARC resolution. They need to talk. She needs to know he never abandonned her. He needs to tell her he died only because he wanted to see her again. We need to see on screen that their journey, even if short, was real and powerful.

 

[Rin]

Thanks Rin, this changed my view on the discussion a bit. It recontextualized the use of the word asshole in relation to Cloud's depression for me, in a much needed way.

You're welcome!! ACC is interesting in that it really does get us talking about super important things like mental health, communication, healthy relationships, parenting, etc. For that reason alone I can't wholly hate it even if I wish it was better executed in some ways.

 

[pxl_pushr]

This actually might ruffle some feathers but I say this as a neurodivergent person who suffers with chronic anxiety, depression, and PTSD myself .... being mentally ill doesn't excuse shitty behaviour. It explains it, yes. But it doesn't absolve anyone from being considered an asshole--even if their intentions were good.

At the end of the day, Cloud left his life partner and their two wards without a word as he planned to die alone in an abandoned church. He thought he was sparing them pain but he wasn't and what he did was shitty as hell. If he HAD died and Tifa resented him for the way he chose to go out... she would be well within her rights for that.

So, I think if someone considers Cloud an asshole for his behaviour in CoT and ACC, that's a valid take. It doesn't mean they're trivializing his depression and PTSD. It's just a recognition of the impact his choices had on his family.

Plus, you can always come back from being an asshole by apologizing and working on rectifying the situation, which Cloud does in the end.

This all the way. We needed Cloud making things right with Tifa and the kids for it to feel like a fully realized arc. Nothing super long or extravagant but an apology to all three of them and a commitment to be better. Then show us that he held to those words, and Tifa’s faith in them isn’t wasted.

It just feels incomplete which is odd because that wasn’t the case for Cloud’s arc in the original game.

It’s the equivalent of never seeing how Tifa found Cloud in the original and cutting to credits right after shirtless Sephiroth catches the omnihands. Just doesn’t quite feel complete

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Yoru: Language barriers ain't stopping us from communicating. I asked for clarification, you provided, all seems well.

And yeah I get wanting things for Cloud to be better and not enjoying his situation in AC/C even if slipping back into depression is realistic under the circumstances.

He's on Twitter @IamVendel if you or anyone ever wants to reconnect with an "old friend", if he was ever that in the first place.

Can't say Vendel was my friend, I never knew him well enough for that. I did enjoy his posts though.

EDIT: If you don't mind me asking, what exactly got him banned off here? General aggression is what I'm guessing.

I was gonna say it was a self-bab but no, that was Dacon wasn't it? I don't think I was around when Vendel exited the forum so I can't speak to it, I know it takes a lot of effort to get permabanned around here. Yoppy and our mods tend to be into second chances until you prove malicious intent is your jam.

Not necessarily, if we're talking about the LTD -Cloud, Tifa, Aerith- then no, just having Cloti scenes puts the kibosh on that.

Cloti speaks for itself

 

[overheat28]

ZA reunion scene is basically required at this point. Not for LTD necessarily but as a culmination of Zack's entire character arc in Rebirth. He's been carrying the torch alone, so to speak, and if they want to wrap his story up in a satisfying way, this is the only way. And now they've added additional angst with Marlene that screams for a resolution specifically in terms of Aerith's feelings.

And I'll put my neck on the line and say that any reunion has to be romantic in nature to make sense. The reunion flowers represent lovers reuniting, after all. Is she going to repeat "I wonder what like this is" to Zack, too? That would be ridiculous.

Cloti is their own thing and Zerith deserve to have the air cleared between them and their relationship established in non-ambiguous terms for full closure on these two characters. Zack and Aerith should have a mutually satisfactory conclusion to their arcs and not just be relegated as accessories to Cloti.

I personally don't think you can meet the goal of not leaving any unresolved feelings if a proper ZA reunion is not happening.

 

[Yoru]

What if...

... Zerith had its own LS scene? And that's how they expand it without distorting it from the OG. The 3rd game is a parallel between Tifa trying to recover and save Cloud and Zack trying to find Aerith and save her from Sephiroth's hunt in the Lifestream/Worlds?

And on either side we have our couples resolving their unspoken feelings ?

One returning to the living world. The other joining hands and preparing the final confrontation from their side

 

[pxl_pushr]

What if...

... Zerith had its own LS scene? And that's how they expand it without distorting it from the OG. The 3rd game is a parallel between Tifa trying to recover and save Cloud and Zack trying to find Aerith and save her from Sephiroth's hunt in the Lifestream/Worlds?

And on either side we have our couples resolving their unspoken feelings ?

One returning to the living world. The other joining hands and preparing the final confrontation from their side

You’re circling around what I’m thinking part 3 will be all about.

Basically, I think the optional scene from the OG that explains Cloud’s missing 5 years will be baked into the story and will hop between CT and ZA since Tifa will likely have a stronger reaction to Hojo experimenting on them for 5 years and Aerith will have a stronger reaction to Zack getting gunned down on his way to see her.

Reason why I think that is because Tifa has asked twice now where Cloud has been for the past 5 years ( even though she thinks it’s more like 7 years ), and both times Cloud has deflected. This isn’t answered in the original LS scene, but it is something that needs answered since it’s been brought up so much.

 

[Yoru]

[PERSONAL INTERPRETATION] The Lifestream is composed of two distinct dimensions.

The Collective consciousness. What we call Worlds. Which is a mixture of dreams, desires and memories that give life to worlds, a kind of space reserved for people who haven't yet joined the Lifestream.

The Personal consciousness. Private Lifestream spaces. Spaces that represent a person's personal identity while they're still alive. A space that diffuses into the collective consciousness once the person dies. The space into which Tifa falls in chapter 9. In this case, Cloud's (because the camera is behind him).

So why not extend the LS sequence into these two dimensions? On the one hand, Tifa and Cloud in the latter's personal space. Where you can delve into a person's soul. And on the other, Zack and Aerith in the collective consciousness. Maybe even a place created by Aerith with her Cetra powers. A place where Zack's soul can finally reach her. Or the other way round, with Aerith creating a safe haven for him and her, where they can tell each other what's on their minds.

 

[pxl_pushr]

[PERSONAL INTERPRETATION] The Lifestream is composed of two distinct dimensions.

The Collective consciousness. What we call Worlds. Which is a mixture of dreams, desires and memories that give life to worlds, a kind of space reserved for people who haven't yet joined the Lifestream.

The Personal consciousness. Private Lifestream spaces. Spaces that represent a person's personal identity while they're still alive. A space that diffuses into the collective consciousness once the person dies. The space into which Tifa falls in chapter 9. In this case, Cloud's (because the camera is behind him).

So why not extend the LS sequence into these two dimensions? On the one hand, Tifa and Cloud in the latter's personal space. Where you can delve into a person's soul. And on the other, Zack and Aerith in the collective consciousness. Maybe even a place created by Aerith with her Cetra powers. A place where Zack's soul can finally reach her. Or the other way round, with Aerith creating a safe haven for him and her, where they can tell each other what's on their minds.

The Planet needs an LS sequence, and Aerith is its Tifa.

Also, Sephiroth is basically Cloud’s character arc on steroids.

 

[Fakewings_]

I hold a lot of empathy in my heart for ACC Cloud but I also am a bit infuriated watching it play out, too. His intentions are good but he left his partner, who is also suffering, to deal with a business, a terminally ill kid, and her close friends daughter all on her own. He won't answer her calls. He won't have a conversation with her at the bar. He won't communicate with her at all. And then poof!, one day, he's just gone.

There's a reason women wrote to Nomura feeling offended for Tifa as @Eerie noted earlier. Not to be an annoying #Feminist but men always get the "privilege" to run away from their problems, their partners, and their children. Women don't but they're still expected to pick up the pieces of their broken home with a smile.

Idk. ACC is kind of triggering for me as a woman because Tifa is also depressed, she's also dealing with raising/taking care of a terminally ill kid, she's also got PTSD and suffers from nightmares, and she's also grieving but she doesn't have the privilege to walk out of the bar one day and never come back while ignoring the phone calls of her friends and family.

Exactly as I thought. This is probably the mindset of many Japanese authors, especially in the manga. Because in Japanese culture, many women hardly go to work and shoulder many responsibilities related to children and family. For example, from Kishimoto's perspective, Sakura has to raise her child on her own until the child is 11-12 years old, while Sasuke is away. And then she still has to smile happily and be understanding every time her husband returns.
Similarly, with ACC and the latter part of CoT, I don't like the way the author describes Cloud and Tifa's relationship like that. It's understandable that female readers may feel it's really unfair to Tifa.
Even small details in ACC make me uncomfortable, such as, Cloud not saving Tifa's phone number like a couple, just simply as "Seven Heaven." What's the hell?

 

[Maidenofwar]

I'm not the best person to ask what's happening in the third game given I thought SE was going to have the balls to do something different with Rebirth and really go somewhere with that defy destiny thing, and yes I thought if Zack was alive Aerith would get to live too. However now Rebirth's over and we've been told it's leading into/linking up to Advent Children we've basically been told what the ending is and where it's going. It's kind of late if they were going to do something narratively different. I don't want Tifa or Zack alone/sad anyway.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's even funnier because Zerith is exactly what they want from Clerith, which is in ff7 itself:

Soldier and Cetra with great chemistry, of which both of them are devoted to each other, even after death.

They want Cloud to do for Aerith what Zack is doing for her right now. Jumping between dimensions in hopes of reuniting, that is.

The more I think about it, the more I think Cleriths would be happier if they migrated to Zerith.

and when you ask them what makes Clerith so compelling they'll say "it's so tragic", but then they'll turn around and claim that they want Cloud and Aerith to reunite. Make up your mind is all I can say.

In this case, "tragic" doesn't mean "she died too soon" it means "she had to deal with some shit" but they still want her to win in the end. It's a specific archetype they want. A literally romantic era notion of the tragic heroine who suffers many misfortunes but who endures them all and is rewarded in the end with the love of the man and horrible things happening to her antagonists without her actually causing their downfall.

But yeah, the next time someone says they want the tragic heroine to come back to life, literally ask them "but how is that actually tragic?" It's not tragic when it happens in Fire Emblem (the Blazing Blade) and Ninian comes back to life. No one thinks of Ninian as a tragic heroine because she gets to marry Eliwood and give birth to Roy. Hell, we wouldn't even call Hector (another character in the same games) a tragic hero because we saw his eventual death in the sequel game set almost 20 years later.

"Speaking of other Final Fantasy games, have you ever noticed that both of the other numbered Final Fantasy games that were released on the playstation 1 had love interests with dark hair? Final Fantasy 7 having Tifa as it's main love interest only cements that pattern, so that's proof of Cloti!"

-Clotis if we used batshit crazy Clerith logic.

I actually have brought points like this up before to demonstrate how specious many of their arguments are, and adding in Tidus and Yuna into the mix. Likewise bringing up that Cloud and Tifa were Guardian and Summoner in their Ergheiz appearance. I often would finish off these arguments with "Now these are shit arguments, and I would never actually use them in a real debate, but they're STILL better than the bullshit you're trying to feed me" or words to similar effect.

Just a question, how long do we think it will be until Cleriths start claiming that because Aerith's costume is that of a Mii Swordfighter in Smash Bros and Cloud being a swordsman is intentional and indicates a connection between them? Or have they already?

Smash Bros seems to have passed them by. I think most of them swore off trying to use fighting games after getting burned hard by pinning their hopes on Dissidia before 012 came out.

I feel like I could have made my point better, I kind of just meant the first half of the game in general.

But even then it's scarce outside of Midgar, there's like what? the conversation in Costa Del Sol and Cloud's "But I- we're here for you, right?" and that's basically it for Cloud/Aerith specific interactions.

I just wanted to bring up a point about the actual mechanics of the AV mechanic. If you want to dive into it there's a FAQ on gamefaqs with a full breakdown of the ways and amounts you can affect the values. The only thing it does not mention is the specific value threshhold the High Affection date triggers at.

Hey, use their own logic against them:

If Cloud is allowed to love two women, then Aerith is allowed to love two men. So if Cloud loving Tifa doesn't kill Clerith, Aerith loving Cloud doesn't kill Zerith.

But you see that's different because Zack is in the past. For reasons. The mean Aerith isn't also in the past despite being dead like Zack.

Since I played the original 2 years and three months ago now, I don't know if I really qualify as a "new fan", but I'll still give my insight:

Speaking as someone who played the game for the first time when it was still new, I think you qualify. And welcome aboard.

I don't really remember what I thought in regards to the romance of the game on my first playthrough, but I remember being atleast somewhat partial to Cloti going into my second playthrough last December...

and completely convinced it was the canon pairing going into my third playthrough in January.

It becomes harder and harder to miss the signs. And yet some do so assiduously.

And for the cherry on top, have Cloud say "I think we can meet her there", just to really rub it in, yknow?

Or even worse "She said she'd be waiting for us, Tifa. She misses you most of all."

I took a day off to fuck around in TOTK and watch old SFM vids on YouTube. Mistakes were made. I'm not even caught up yet, but I have to respond to a certain take I'm seeing a lot of and I'm impatient so...

TOTK bullshit and youtube is not a mistake, unless no koroks were sent to space.

First, our regularly scheduled derailing of the thread with Ryu

Never forget. Or forgive.

At this point I don't think I could.

Your journey to TLS is more interesting than mine. Also while Squall is Dead is genuinely insane, some peeps do a shockingly good job of making it sound almost plausible, so it's at least fun as crack goes.

It's such a strange place to decide he died at, though. He got stabbed in the shoulder with magical ice and magical healing exists.

Shit Drake is still out there tormenting themselves with this mess? I remember when they were involved in getting the FFVII page on TVTropes locked in an edit war over First Girl Wins and such.

Sucks cause if you kept the topic away from CxA they were fairly chill and sane most of the time.

Yeah, still plugging away for CxA and still active on both Gamefaqs and the FFWiki. I think Angelalex might also be around on GFaqs too.

If he wasn't I'd question if we're the same Vendel. Does he still respond to special pleading with all-caps BAWWWW? NGL I miss seeing it.

I've seen his posts every so often. Yep.

You're so selfless to throw yourself on the poop grenade so others might be spared.

I can handle this shit. I cut my teeth on flat earthers and evolution deniers.

That's legit sad. Just... Protect their sources from what? This isn't a whistleblower speaking out about those in power or a criminal informant. Reprisals aren't a threat. It's not even a believable lie, ffs.

Protect their source from being not real, because it's basically the only thing they have to prop up the belief that Japan is super Clerith and thus it's the canon ship.

Well, at least they were honest about the nature of their dishonest echo chamber.

Yep. Like a poisonous animal letting you know it's better to stay away.

And still too high.

I actually got a bit confused about the sub difference as I mistook a cloti post in the general FF7 subreddit for the cloti subreddit, but even then the difference is 640 to 4k.

I have heard good things on that one.

It's very good. I have wanted to "race" against someone playing LttP vanilla for the first time while I do a rando.

Taken literally that sounds terrifying.

Their heads would explode from the tension and fear. Of course it's terrifying.

How did aquatic mollusks get into it?

You're thinking of Whelks.

It makes me feel tingly.

Well it might be time to get the tingly from the electrical socket for the time being.

No Kewpie doll for her, let alone one person clone.

Her attempts to cheat did her no good anyways.

I can't draw/am too lazy, or I'd be on it.

Same.

Just let her be cute and innocent until she suddenly dies her Barret impression, it'll take him off guard.

And she even puts on sunglasses for it.

Indeed. Dumb comes in many forms... But it's still dumb

That is is. But in this case I think it's good dumb fun.

It really is. Like, I wouldn't willingly turn my back on those people.

Yeah, I'd want to hold onto all the cutlery in the immediate area.

I would say I'm sure I'm not the only one... But we're apparently surrounded by youngins in this here thread.

We're the old soldiers who refuse to fade away.

I liked it, for whatever that's worth.

Same here.

Now that ACC exists, yeah there's no serious reason to leave the second C out. Make it funny or GTFO.

And that's why the Silver Haired Boys want to make everyone watch "The Spirits Within"

Yeah, that sounds familiar. I think I read some articles that just used "FSI," its nice to have actual words to fill in the abbreviation.

It's a handy concept.

So sad, without the following this would be a smart question. But...

Yeah, that's happening. And it's all confirmation bias from there.

Keryep.

From what I've seen, he usually just replies to Cleriths with something along the lines of "Cope harder" or "you wish" and then he takes his leave.

If he stuck the dismount and told them while they were wrong it'd be better, but I can't blame him.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Exactly as I thought. This is probably the mindset of many Japanese authors, especially in the manga. Because in Japanese culture, many women hardly go to work and shoulder many responsibilities related to children and family. For example, from Kishimoto's perspective, Sakura has to raise her child on her own until the child is 11-12 years old, while Sasuke is away. And then she still has to smile happily and be understanding every time her husband returns.
Similarly, with ACC and the latter part of CoT, I don't like the way the author describes Cloud and Tifa's relationship like that. It's understandable that female readers may feel it's really unfair to Tifa.
Even small details in ACC make me uncomfortable, such as, Cloud not saving Tifa's phone number like a couple, just simply as "Seven Heaven." What's the hell?

So, on that front, for a time in Japan you would have an identity tied with a phone, a custom name or email address, and that would go out in correspondence rather than the recipient setting a unique name in their own phone. That was the case in the era of flip phones. It might have been Tifa who set the phone ID as "7th Heaven" rather than Cloud not saving her by name.

That of course changed with the adoption of smartphones as opposed to flip phones and the Retrilogy has subtly moved phone and TV technology forward by roughly, oh, 27 years. So if we get a new ACR, for example, that seen will be very different as Cloud won't be repping a specific flip phone brand any more.

 

[pxl_pushr]

So, on that front, for a time in Japan you would have an identity tied with a phone, a custom name or email address, and that would go out in correspondence rather than the recipient setting a unique name in their own phone. That was the case in the era of flip phones. It might have been Tifa who set the phone ID as "7th Heaven" rather than Cloud not saving her by name.

That of course changed with the adoption of smartphones as opposed to flip phones and the Retrilogy has subtly moved phone and TV technology forward by roughly, oh, 27 years. So if we get a new ACR, for example, that seen will be very different as Cloud won't be repping a specific flip phone brand any more.

Weren’t the phones in AC also based on a specific phone model that came out around the time it released? And it’s also the phone model that could play Before Crisis? I very vaguely remember that being a thing but I could be mistaken.

Interesting insight though. Can’t say for sure due to lack of knowledge on my part, but I wouldn’t be shocked if a cultural barrier also makes Cloud and Tifa’s relationship seem odd to anyone outside of Japan.

 

[Rin]

Interesting insight though. Can’t say for sure due to lack of knowledge on my part, but I wouldn’t be shocked if a cultural barrier also makes Cloud and Tifa’s relationship seem odd to anyone outside of Japan.

Seems it's odd to people within Japan too since Nomura was shocked that fans interpreted them as having a bad relationship lmao but that's their fault for depicting it the way they did. This is why I hope they rewrite ACC at least if everything's leading there anyways

 

[Yoru]

Even small details in ACC make me uncomfortable, such as, Cloud not saving Tifa's phone number like a couple, just simply as "Seven Heaven." What's the hell?

She's calling him from the bar. We can see it's the phone used to answer Reno's call as well as the one Aerith is calling to tell Marlene and Denzel to go to the church (wtf Nomura lmao)

So it's just not her personal phone. I'm not even sure she has one. That's why it's just registered as 7th Heaven. That's just their home phone.

 

[frosty]

At the end of the day, Cloud left his life partner and their two wards without a word as he planned to die alone in an abandoned church. He thought he was sparing them pain but he wasn't and what he did was shitty as hell. If he HAD died and Tifa resented him for the way he chose to go out... she would be well within her rights for that.

So, I think if someone considers Cloud an asshole for his behaviour in CoT and ACC, that's a valid take. It doesn't mean they're trivializing his depression and PTSD. It's just a recognition of the impact his choices had on his family.

Plus, you can always come back from being an asshole by apologizing and working on rectifying the situation, which Cloud does in the end.

As i got older and got over the "AC looks cool", I despised his characterization in AC. Let's not romanticise the "I want to give up and die to be with Aerith in the afterlife" but just how genuinely awful can a person be to stonewall then ghost a person who only wants to help and love you AND ABANDON TWO children, leaving her to handle her business, handle HIS business and expect her to be "oh he disappeared, I won't be sad and will just get on with life".

I mean, look at how Aerith is portrayed to cling on to Zack for years after he disappeared without a trace. Surely Cloud would "know" this.

Also, did women write to Nomura saying they didn't like how Tifa was treated ? I only remember in an interview he said he got feedback from women said Tifa was "pitiful" but if you digged deeper, you'd see that her relationship with Cloud was good

And I know the whole "Japanese culture" stuff doesn't fly in most debates, esp hand holding is better than kiss / sex but I do notice that quite a few Japanese media - even old songs - have a theme of masculinity - where the man has to go away, settle his inner demons, not have to drag other people to be involved in essentially what is "his personal fight", but always having a cherished person to come home to. And the thought returning to this cherished person what fuels his strength to endure his trials.

I guess if you romanticised it enough, that is what Tifa is to Cloud, but damn, abandoning 2 kids in this day an age ain't a good look / is asshole behaviour

 

[A-to-Z]

It's even funnier because Zerith is exactly what they want from Clerith, which is in ff7 itself:

Soldier and Cetra with great chemistry, of which both of them are devoted to each other, even after death.

They want Cloud to do for Aerith what Zack is doing for her right now. Jumping between dimensions in hopes of reuniting, that is.

The more I think about it, the more I think Cleriths would be happier if they migrated to Zerith.

and when you ask them what makes Clerith so compelling they'll say "it's so tragic", but then they'll turn around and claim that they want Cloud and Aerith to reunite. Make up your mind is all I can say.

I don’t mind people being eventually converted to ZA but if they spent years denying Crisis Core, recycling the same old arguments and slandering Zack and hating on CC!Aerith (when it just comes from a place of misinterpreting both their canon characterizations), I feel like me along with the other ZAs who shipped them ever since, have the right to be at least a little bit territorial. I imagine being a CA is canon and endgame believer is a difficult role because since the compilation expanded now you’d have to invalidate not one, but two canon ships.

 

[ChaosandConfusion]

So I watched ACC.. their relationship is so heavy and it makes me hesitant on wanting it to happen like this is really the only guy she's interested in, she could do way better.
I beat Crisis Core and I maybe a Zackbro/sis.

 

[GamerSkull]

So I watched ACC.. their relationship is so heavy and it makes me hesitant on wanting it to happen like this is really the only guy she's interested in, she could do way better.
I beat Crisis Core and I maybe a Zackbro/sis.

Finally! YOU DID IT! Was it the original PSP version or did you play the new Reunion re-release?

And yeah, Crisis Core is the reason Zack is my second favorite character (Tifa is the first). And it's especially heartbreaking that he tries to reunite with Aerith but is killed just shy of the finish line. But yeah, Zack needs a "happy ending", and honestly I would be fine with a Afterlife-sorta ending with both him and Aerith together again.

As for ACC, Cloud's characterization is just off. The reason to watch it is the spectacle as others have mentioned, but yeah, it's the reason I want post-DoC epilogues because I feel we just don't have enough closure with Cloud and Tifa. I suppose Reminiscence works, because Cloud asks Tifa to take a day off so the the four of them can go on a picnic together. Something like that for an epilogue might be nice. But like others have said, I would not be opposed to a complete re-do of ACC, with the better characterization we are getting now.

Still, Cloud affirming that he's Zack's living legacy is peak. I will brook no arguments on that.

 

[pxl_pushr]

So I watched ACC.. their relationship is so heavy and it makes me hesitant on wanting it to happen like this is really the only guy she's interested in, she could do way better.
I beat Crisis Core and I maybe a Zackbro/sis.

The more Remake goes on, the less I believe for a second that any of these characters would behave like they do in ACC.

 

[Rin]

Also, did women write to Nomura saying they didn't like how Tifa was treated ? I only remember in an interview he said he got feedback from women said Tifa was "pitiful" but if you digged deeper, you'd see that her relationship with Cloud was good

I'm not sure of the details, but it was something Eerie had mentioned! I think generally speaking, Nomura was shocked to hear that fans didn't think their relationship was good..... idk why that shocked him at all though.

And yeah, Japan is very patriarchal and so it doesn't surprise me that these older men depicted Cloud/Tifa that way back then. But I think they've all opened their minds, taken in other forms of media, and watched the world shift and change in real time. Just the inclusion of same-sex relationships and queer NPCs is a massive sign of how open minded they've become, so I have hope that they'll rectify ACC Cloti somehow, someway.

Plus ToTP is pretty clear on the fact that Tifa doesn't want to be some guys trophy wife. She has her own dreams, wants and desires, and she only wants to be with a man who respects her.