SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

Hi

I promise I'm not ignoring anyone I just always comment before work or after getting home and it's been a day.

About having Tifa and Yuffie should get to play Rosa more I agree. Because it ended up in a half situation where the two girls get unique scenes but only if you pick them. In fact I would have changed it to three different plays. The Dragon King and Loveless are different stories with different characters. Mashing it up like this makes it confusing. But I would have done this: Give Aerith Loveless make her Rosa thats her date. Give Dragon King to Tifa make her another princess could be named Rosa that's her date. Put I Wanna Be Your Canary or something else quirky make Yuffie star in it as yet another princess could be named Rosa too that's her date. This way all three girls can star in a play and have unique scenes. Can be the same dress even just different plays.

As for the other dates the men could watch these plays or be side characters in them and it rotates which. Aerith can still sing at the end of them all.

Alas they didn't do this but it's what I would have done.

As for theories on Rebirth because the play is Loveless Act 2 and 3 but mashed up with the dragon king play I do think it's like a metaphor of the whole thing with Cloud wishing to be a hero and acting out a persona but I don't think it has any hidden reveals about the future.


@eleamaya Did the devs somehow forget Sephiroth exists lol? In CC Genesis sees him Sephiroth and Angeal as the three friends. Though I agree that Zack is the hero as he takes on the mantle the original hero would be Angeal (the successful copy) or Sephiroth the perfect war hero. At least in CC The thing with Rebirth's version is Alphreid is a character from the dragon king play in OG not Loveless and they gave him the lines from Loveless from the final act with the role of the main lead and his lover. So they seem to have made him a lead of the Loveless play here. I think he is technically the hero.

The devs say they made Aerith first because the Cetra was first. The Cetra however was named Tifaret. The Cetra probably went through several drafts in at least two drafts the Sepiroth character who was originally Vincent was her sibling. At some point way later they changed it to the Sephiroth character was her ex, then her first love but unrequited then then they decided to make Zack who was originally Cloud her ex and first love. Yep. Lots of drafts for several characters. The Cetra was also split in two when they decided someone had to die. I basically figure Tifa and Aerith the characters come from breaking up the Cetra into two girls.

And yeah the original Cetra design and childhood friend role was given to Tifa. The Cetra role captured by the Turks was given to Aerith with a different design.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, Aerith was sorta “created first” but she had the design of Tifa at the time. And then yeah, it was moved around when they decided the Cetra would die.

 

[abzy1200]

I was referencing the For the One I love page, trying to remember the exact page number.

I was just trying to find the exact one that said 'desire', since the word 'desire' is missing from the 'For the one I love' page.

They convey the same message, anyway.

Like a lot of AA's stuff, it was doing him more harm than it ever could do his ship any good.

again, what exactly is new here? Still can't get over him thinking that third graders would ever prove his point, always gets a laugh out of me when I think about it.

Yeah, she's very clear that what he's looking for isn't her, that she can't help even though she wants to.

He also isn't very receptive to her. From what I remember he was quite unwilling to chat with her.

I get what you mean, but the ludonarrative events and the canon events are not necessarily the exact same. What happens mechanically and what "actually happens" don't always match up 1:1. This is hypothetical talk anyways.

Yeah, I guess. It just kind of makes sense for Aerith to be Rosa, Loveless has always been related to her/Zack.

I hate to say it but I don't think the personality plays into a lot of the Self Insert motivations. I think it's the aesthetic. Hence why there's such a slut-shame vibe from the same people against "the competition."

It's a shame too, since the two women are already pitted against each other by the fandom for other reasons, when there's no need to.

I have not but like "Holding hands is more serious than kissing" it does not pass the smell test.

Still waiting on the sources for their 'lovers tie'.

It's not strictly speaking future time travel as it is pulling points in space-time together. And I know that probably makes no fucking sense to you. I am used to it.

I gave up trying to understand it myself a long time ago, so I'll take your word for it.

Like, making a couple get married and have kids is about the only thing more blatant you can do than have a character's literal subconscious spell out his love for a woman to that woman.

Even funnier, Cleriths simultaneously claim that the scene is aromantic, yet fight for Aerith to be involved in it.

Plus, Cloud and Tifa already have an adopted son, so...

He only gets motion sick on vehicles and when he's not driving. As Tifa will be taking him for a ride, that will not be an issue.

She won't put her experience riding Chocobos at the Gold Saucer to waste.

 

[Eerie]

The thing that always got me though is how once they kept Tifa’s name and looks and preferred to create a whole new character for the Cetra.

 

[Sacky]

The thing that always got me though is how once they kept Tifa’s name and looks and preferred to create a whole new character for the Cetra.

I think its because but i could be wrong Tifa's design is a

Yamato nadeshiko - meaning the "personification of an idealized Japanese woman", or "the epitome of pure, feminine beauty"​

 

[GamerSkull]

The thing that always got me though is how once they kept Tifa’s name and looks and preferred to create a whole new character for the Cetra.

I imagine it’s a bit like One Piece where

Spoiler

Sabo is essentially created to replace Ace. Oda was able to kill the latter off and still have a character take essentially that same role

 

[abzy1200]

I imagine it’s a bit like One Piece where

Spoiler

Sabo is essentially created to replace Ace. Oda was able to kill the latter off and still have a character take essentially that same role

Spoiler

Do they take the same role though? Sabo is a revolutionary, Ace was a member of the Whitebeard Pirates. Unless I'm forgetting stuff, since One Piece is long and it's been a while since I read through it, those are both relatively separate roles. Unless you mean the role of somebody on the seas with a connection to Luffy and his past, then I can see it.

 

[GamerSkull]

Spoiler

Do they take the same role though? Sabo is a revolutionary, Ace was a member of the Whitebeard Pirates. Unless I'm forgetting stuff, since One Piece is long and it's been a while since I read through it, those are both relatively separate roles. Unless you mean the role of somebody on the seas with a connection to Luffy and his past, then I can see it.

Spoiler

To be fair, I’m saying it’s a similar scenario. Not exactly the same. Plus, both characters fulfill a certain role for Luffy but they are their own characters. And it’s the same with Aerith and Tifa essentially. They’re both heroines, just at different stages of the story.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

The thing that always got me though is how once they kept Tifa’s name and looks and preferred to create a whole new character for the Cetra.

I 100% can buy that Nomura was attached to that design. He also has Rinoa and Garnet look similar and people would joke Tifa was his favorite in the office for a reason I'm sure.

Also who knows how long he worked on the Cetra I can sympathize with wanting to not go back to the drawing board.

 

[looneymoon]

Which imo is kinda the problem with Cloud if I’m completely honest.

What part of Tifa’s life is improved through being with him? Same question even if you switch Tifa for Aerith.

That’s what I need to see out of all this in the end. Tifa and Cloud are obviously meant for eachother, but by being so wishy washy about their relationship beyond the original story, it just looks like a stilted relationship.

Love how Tifa is characterized, but I need Cloud to make some gains as a desirable domestic partner for the sake of his character.

Advent Children could have been an interesting story about a marriage going through a hard time. Unfortunately it was told by a bunch of morons.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, now that my brain is nagging me to look for it, I know who to blame

In all seriousness, though, if I didn't read that fic in MST3K format, I'm almost sure if it would've bothered me more. At least the commentary provided some breaks, if nothing else.

You're welcome. I take both the credit and the blame.

The devs say they made Aerith first because the Cetra was first. The Cetra however was named Tifaret. The Cetra probably went through several drafts in at least two drafts the Sepiroth character who was originally Vincent was her sibling. At some point way later they changed it to the Sephiroth character was her ex, then her first love but unrequited then then they decided to make Zack who was originally Cloud her ex and first love. Yep. Lots of drafts for several characters. The Cetra was also split in two when they decided someone had to die. I basically figure Tifa and Aerith the characters come from breaking up the Cetra into two girls.

And yeah the original Cetra design and childhood friend role was given to Tifa. The Cetra role captured by the Turks was given to Aerith with a different design.

Minor point of clarfication because all of that is correct to the best of my knowledge, except that her full name being "Tifaret" or "Tiferet" is technically a supposition, specifically my own. The notes we have from that era just say "Tifa." I was the one who made the logical leap and 'named' the proto Tifa and Aerith Tifaret to match Sephiroth and Tiferet and to help disambiguate between her and the two characters she would become.

I was just trying to find the exact one that said 'desire', since the word 'desire' is missing from the 'For the one I love' page.

They convey the same message, anyway.

Fair enough.

again, what exactly is new here? Still can't get over him thinking that third graders would ever prove his point, always gets a laugh out of me when I think about it.

Your guess is as good as anyone else's, really.

He also isn't very receptive to her. From what I remember he was quite unwilling to chat with her.

I believe their only lines together are in fact of her wishing him luck on finding his light, are they not?

Yeah, I guess. It just kind of makes sense for Aerith to be Rosa, Loveless has always been related to her/Zack.

To me it makes it strange for her to 'play' herself in effigy, as it were.

It's a shame too, since the two women are already pitted against each other by the fandom for other reasons, when there's no need to.

It's worse when you realize how much of that comes from other women.

Still waiting on the sources for their 'lovers tie'.

Like, the idea isn't unheard of, but hand holding is the baby's first steps version.

I gave up trying to understand it myself a long time ago, so I'll take your word for it.

Fair. I'd need very complex diagrams to actually explain the bullshit.

Even funnier, Cleriths simultaneously claim that the scene is aromantic, yet fight for Aerith to be involved in it.

Yeah, because the only reason it's not romantic is because Tifa's in it and they can't admit that any scene with her could be romantic.

Plus, Cloud and Tifa already have an adopted son, so...

Cloud and Tifa are like, third in line for most established FF main hero couple behind Cecil and Rosa and Nox and Luna, and the only reason Nox and Luna edge them out is because we do have depictions of their hypothetical future children.
Stupid fact of the day- The mocap actor for Ardyn in Kingsglaive as well as basically every other character is the man who plays Astarion in Baldur's Gate 3.

She won't put her experience riding Chocobos at the Gold Saucer to waste.

She's going to need all of her skills to stay on this wild critter.

The thing that always got me though is how once they kept Tifa’s name and looks and preferred to create a whole new character for the Cetra.

I think they actually switched to a look that more resembled Aerith partway through development, given we have the Amano art of 'her' and Sephiroth that has the single visible earring, as does Tifa, wheras Aerith doesn't wear any.
I am unsure if that is from later in the siblings era or the ex lover era, but I err towards the latter.

 

[eleamaya]

@eleamaya Did the devs somehow forget Sephiroth exists lol? In CC Genesis sees him Sephiroth and Angeal as the three friends. Though I agree that Zack is the hero as he takes on the mantle the original hero would be Angeal (the successful copy) or Sephiroth the perfect war hero.

No. Genesis changes his interpretation in the ending as Zack bites dumbapple and Lazard being Angeal Copy; I think it's also because he finally meet the Goddess and Zack is a gift of her as their final fight cure him. But correct me if I'm wrong, the protagonist is the Prisoner, right? So Genesis still see himself as the protagonist.

EDIT to add this:

At some point way later they changed it to the Sephiroth character was her ex, then her first love but unrequited then

Team ShinraArch found that Sephiroth being siblings and first love is at the same draft. So, my HC of the draft is.... Aerith didn't know Sephiroth was her siblings when she fell in love. He might keep buying her flowers because he knew she was his siblings as an act of him caring from a far. And players would be given this shocking reality in Icicle Inn after she's murdered.

A brother impaling his little sister in front of the protagonist who was his best friend and her love interest with his long ass sword is not something new to me. It's even more shocking because he was still a kind guy who loved the two just seconds ago. It's exactly what happened in a manga title "X" by CLAMP, the story is about End of World and also use Gaia Hypothesis (a theory about Earth as living being). I remember the last word of her spirit is "The future isn't set in stone," she has potency to become a dream/future gazer although it means the foreshadowing of her death keeps spoiling the readers (the same impact I feel in FFVII Remake Project since it doesnt exist in OG). If the Cetra isn't split to two characters; the relationship between the hero, heroine, and the villain would be extremely similar to X; and I'm glad that the hero is also split to Cloud & Zack. X is older than FF7, serialized since 1992 and discontinued in 2003 by the publisher because how gruesome it is since it's under shoujo demographic. Though the anime series exist and has its own ending, If you're curious, it's produced by Madhouse, the same studio as FFVII Last Order so the art style of both anime is very similar. Suzuken (Zack's VA) voiced the main character btw, I want to hear his scream again if Part 3 show him getting vision of Aerith's death.

 

[Ryushikaze]

No. Genesis changes his interpretation in the ending as Zack bites dumbapple and Lazard being Angeal Copy; I think it's also because he finally meet the Goddess and Zack is a gift of her as their final fight cure him. But correct me if I'm wrong, the protagonist is the Prisoner, right? So Genesis still see himself as the protagonist.

EDIT to add this:

Team ShinraArch found that Sephiroth being siblings and first love is at the same draft. So, my HC of the draft is.... Aerith didn't know Sephiroth was her siblings when she fell in love. He might keep buying her flowers because he knew she was his siblings as an act of him caring from a far. And players would be given this shocking reality in Icicle Inn after she's murdered.

A brother impaling his little sister in front of the protagonist who was his best friend and her love interest with his long ass sword is not something new to me.

Do we know that she was getting murdered at this stage in production? It seems like this might have still been during the "three playable characters" stage before the split happened.

It's exactly what happened in a manga title "X" by CLAMP, it also use Gaia Hypothesis (a theory about Earth as living being). I remember the last word of her spirit is "The future isn't set in stone," she has potency to become a dream/future gazer although it means she also keep getting vision of her own death, maybe that's why the villain kills her (and to wreck the hero's heart). If the Cetra isn't split to two characters; the relationship between the hero, heroine, and the villain would be extremely similar to X; and I'm glad that the hero is also split to Cloud & Zack. X is older than FF7, serialized since 1992 and discontinued in 2003 by the publisher because how gruesome it is since it's under shoujo demographic. Though the anime series exist and has its own ending... Suzuken (Zack's VA) voiced the main character btw.

More to do with the many natural disasters hitting too close to home at the time, I think. CLAMP has done gore and violence in other of their works no issue.

 

[Nancy]

That face was my exact reaction when I got home and my Rebirth Deluxe Edition had arrived.

Lmao I believe that was everyone's reaction, including me even if I got mine a few days later

 

[eleamaya]

Do we know that she was getting murdered at this stage in production? It seems like this might have still been during the "three playable characters" stage before the split happened.

Maybe not.... but the time they decided to kill her, if they didn't split the Cetra to two characters; the outcome would be extremely similar. Who knows they're aware of other media. X manga is commercial success in Japan with over 12 million copies (based on Wiki).

More to do with the many natural disasters hitting too close to home at the time, I think. CLAMP has done gore and violence in other of their works no issue.

Ach, yeah. I also read RG Veda, it's brutal too, and the villain has Sephiroth's appearance.
Somehow, I realize it's CLAMP's stories (RG Veda, X, Magic Knight Rayearth) I read in 1995-1998 that make me love tragic plot twist before I was ever hooked by FFVII

 

[frosty]

Does no one ship themselves with Zack? Is he chopped liver amongst self inserters? I always wondered why we only hear about Cloud-wives. Maybe he just gets those protective instincts going.

Zack is golden retriever boyfriend
Cloud is "I can change him"

 

[GamerSkull]

You ever think it pisses some of them off that Zack and Aerith’s Japanese VA’s are married?

 

[eleamaya]

You ever think it pisses some of them off that Zack and Aerith’s VA’s are married?

Who isnt pissed by this?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1556960326989787136

Full video (no sub)-->

Ishikawa to Suzuken lol, "hyuu~ hyuu~"

I remember when Cody & Briana hosted a game show, their reaction is kind of wishing the two being together. Idk if they had known that Cody had girlfriend. But Briana seems single.

 

[frosty]

I don't entirely trust streamer women to be open with their relationships, because their fanbase can be...kinda deranged?

 

[GamerSkull]

I don't entirely trust streamer women to be open with their relationships, because their fanbase can be...kinda deranged?

Yeah, I don’t particularly watch streamers but I bet it’s a lot like idols in Japan. Which also seems like something where the people involved go to great lengths to keep their personal lives out of public eye.

 

[Eerie]

@eleamaya wow, X, I hadn’t heard of that one since a long time ago lol. I was following it and dropped it when I heard it wasn’t finished, though for me I did hear that CLAMP put it in pause themselves, not that the publisher did. After that, looking at what they worked on, I kinda thought they did not, in fact, want to come back to it, despite all the rumours around it.

inor point of clarfication because all of that is correct to the best of my knowledge, except that her full name being "Tifaret" or "Tiferet" is technically a supposition, specifically my own. The notes we have from that era just say "Tifa." I was the one who made the logical leap and 'named' the proto Tifa and Aerith Tifaret to match Sephiroth and Tiferet and to help disambiguate between her and the two characters she would become

Earisu though doesn’t work very well with Tifaret being split in 2. And I raise you the existence of the song “Princess Tiffa” I think which Nojima used to listen to in the 80s. And honestly could be Tifa’s starting point lol.

 

[eleamaya]

I hadn’t heard of that one since a long time ago lol. I was following it and dropped it when I heard it wasn’t finished

Man, I was following it since 1997 so imagine my feelings when it's discontinued >_<. Movie and TV series has its own ending differently (in movie, it's Fuuma who died, in TV series, it's Kamui who died); damn, I can't predict how the original would end; but Kotori's death is inevitable anywhere hahaha. How many times do we see her body being sliced to pieces?

So, every time people talk about how Sephiroth & Aerith was supposed to be siblings and say glad it has changed because big brother killing his little sister would be too cruel, I can't help but mind always goes to X. Ach, if only FF7 rating is mature, I wouldnt mind to see Aerith's death depicted like that too.

Spoiler: impaled

And I need Suzuken to scream like this XD. TV series toned it down, and his cries is same as FFVII Rebirth opening.

 

[Stiggie]

Hi

I promise I'm not ignoring anyone I just always comment before work or after getting home and it's been a day.

About having Tifa and Yuffie should get to play Rosa more I agree. Because it ended up in a half situation where the two girls get unique scenes but only if you pick them. In fact I would have changed it to three different plays. The Dragon King and Loveless are different stories with different characters. Mashing it up like this makes it confusing. But I would have done this: Give Aerith Loveless make her Rosa thats her date. Give Dragon King to Tifa make her another princess could be named Rosa that's her date. Put I Wanna Be Your Canary or something else quirky make Yuffie star in it as yet another princess could be named Rosa too that's her date. This way all three girls can star in a play and have unique scenes. Can be the same dress even just different plays.

As for the other dates the men could watch these plays or be side characters in them and it rotates which. Aerith can still sing at the end of them all.

Alas they didn't do this but it's what I would have done.

As for theories on Rebirth because the play is Loveless Act 2 and 3 but mashed up with the dragon king play I do think it's like a metaphor of the whole thing with Cloud wishing to be a hero and acting out a persona but I don't think it has any hidden reveals about the future.


@eleamaya Did the devs somehow forget Sephiroth exists lol? In CC Genesis sees him Sephiroth and Angeal as the three friends. Though I agree that Zack is the hero as he takes on the mantle the original hero would be Angeal (the successful copy) or Sephiroth the perfect war hero. At least in CC The thing with Rebirth's version is Alphreid is a character from the dragon king play in OG not Loveless and they gave him the lines from Loveless from the final act with the role of the main lead and his lover. So they seem to have made him a lead of the Loveless play here. I think he is technically the hero.

The devs say they made Aerith first because the Cetra was first. The Cetra however was named Tifaret. The Cetra probably went through several drafts in at least two drafts the Sepiroth character who was originally Vincent was her sibling. At some point way later they changed it to the Sephiroth character was her ex, then her first love but unrequited then then they decided to make Zack who was originally Cloud her ex and first love. Yep. Lots of drafts for several characters. The Cetra was also split in two when they decided someone had to die. I basically figure Tifa and Aerith the characters come from breaking up the Cetra into two girls.

And yeah the original Cetra design and childhood friend role was given to Tifa. The Cetra role captured by the Turks was given to Aerith with a different design.

I'd have made it only Tifa, aerith always have the song, so give tifa the play. What's more, make the outfit look aerithy, and Cloud's outfit zacky. Drive home the idea that they are playing out the roles of the ancient heroes, that they essentially took over their roles as their living legacies.

 

[Eerie]

@eleamaya I followed X even earlier lol probably around 2016 as it was released earlier in France.

Coming back to Tifa’s name, here are the lyrics for Princess Tiffa:

 

[A-to-Z]

(For anyone who’s interested) A post written by a ZA fan that defends Zerith from the “It’s just a CA copy” accusations:

snowlily95.tumblr.com/post/629113651631177728

(There’s some lore inconsistencies because it was written before TOTP and wasn’t reviewed in a long time but the point it makes is still relevant). I feel like anyone who asserts that ZA is a CA copy in 2024 has a very surface level understanding of the characters and their relationships and is just generally bitter about how development and narrative pay-off ZA actually got.

My opinion on Zack as a fan (feel free to to ignore):

I like Zack more than Cloud because he demonstrates that you don’t need a tragic backstory to build a complex character. You can have a character go through trauma and it would still be convincing and equally compelling if that character chooses to keep trying to save and serve others precisely because they carry the weight of that trauma. And Zack absolutely goes through traumatic events as well; he was radicalized into being an instrument of war, his mentor forced him to help him in his suic*de, his position as Soldier was repeatedly used as means of committing violence instead of the peace he wanted to protect, etc and yes it created self doubt and internal conflict but it also strengthened his resolve and deepened his sense of justice. CC’s plot demands for him to lose his sense of purpose, backs him into a wall to lose his fighting spirit but he always overcomes. Because for me, if the appeal and intrigue of Cloud’s character is his mental weakness, Zack’s is his mental strength. And Zack is strong because he never puts his personal suffering above the problems of others that he wishes to address. Zack and Cloud both went through an existential crisis, but unlike Cloud, (or Sephiroth) Zack didn’t let it consume him and he didn’t succumb to despair. I like happy-go-lucky approachable characters who internalize their pain and grief. I love selfless ‘role model’ characters who abide by a strong moral code and conduct themselves with self-discipline. Is it unrealistic? Yes. But it’s also admirable.

You don’t need a cold or aloof attitude like Sephiroth or SoldierPersona!Cloud for a male character to be charming. What makes a male character attractive to me is their maturity and how this reflects in their treatment of other characters; that there’s profoundness in being kind too. Zack entered Shinra with big ambitions wanting to become a hero for glory and recognition but slowly learned what the world around him needed, how much suffering Shinra caused its’ victims all the while being deprived of his freedom and agency and yet he still matured and became capable of inspiring others and imparting his ideals on them and died practicing those genuine heroic values. And yes, he failed multiple times, and doubted himself multiple times, he couldn’t save Genesis or Angeal (couldn’t even stop the Nibelheim incident from happening, maybe it was the whispers lol) but always treated other folks, friends or foes, villains or civilians with respect and sympathy and did his best to understand their views with fair judgment. Because he understands life isn’t simply black and white— no one is. He doesn’t want to see or label anybody as monsters. And it shows his maturity.

Unlike Sephiroth who was planning to abandon his position before Nibelheim, Zack was willing to commit to it because he wanted Soldier to be a title associated with honor and humanity, because when little boys dream of becoming Soldiers, when they dream of becoming Heroes, those are the values they should embody and protect. He’s a responsible person who recognized the importance of strength and power and desired to do only good deeds with it. Never running away from conflict even if it has nothing to do with him, opposite to Cloud’s ‘Not interested’ attitude. And even if he’s brave and mentally and physically strong, Zack still remains humble, down-to-earth and emotionally intelligent. Because who he really is isn’t defined by his achievements or his position, it’s defined by the values he lives by. And he’d still be willing to address even the most mundane concerns of anyone he’s surrounded by, no matter who they are— with equal enthusiasm and sincerity.

Because it doesn’t matter how small the crisis is; if there’s a person who’s willing to rise and lend a hand— it makes all the difference because that small gesture can make the world a better place. And it’s very idealistic but also grounded of him because it’s true that taking action matters, providing solutions are what matters and every decision Zack makes is proof of his worldview. And we’ve seen from Rebirth that whoever he meets he can’t help but want to be of service to. Promises aren’t inherently special, it’s what people do to fulfill them. I adore him and Aerith’s altruism, their genuine concern for others, their bravery and their mental fortitude. Even if it was hard, both of them became willing to carry the burden of their respective roles. I think the both of them are such admirable pillars of strength.

And yeah it’s annoying to see the fandom reduce Zack to just “himbo energy” or “haha this buff guy can’t read”. Don’t get me wrong I’m not a huge fan of CC’s writing either, it definitely didn’t age well, but it still surprised me on how deep it got in some moments, especially in regards to Zack as a character. I absolutely love that his character was expanded at all because it’s meant to juxtapose Sephiroth’s journey to corruption and moral depravity. Zack was able to retain having a life purpose, retain his righteousness and humanity because he wanted to protect Cloud and get back to Aerith— because the bonds you make and how you cherish them are what makes you and keeps you as a person, a human. And the memories from the bonds he forged with the different people he encountered keeps him strong (literally).

For me the expansion of his character made the structure between the characters more complex because to Cloud’s persona, Sephiroth is the devil, while Zack is the angel. That’s why in Edge of Creation (presumably within Cloud’s psyche) you fight against one Soldier, while another fights with you. It makes the plot point of Cloud entirely forgetting Zack, the Soldier who represents moral uprightness, who directly inspired Cloud through their friendship, showed him benevolence and honor in contrast to Sephiroth who he only looked up to from afar in an innocent boy’s dream (because of Sephiroth’s esteemed reputation) who ended up directly showing him the prime example of cruelty; even more interesting (Along with the fact that the story sometimes paints Cloud as a Zack stand-in). Which is why it’s frustrating to see some ff7 fans downplay the importance of his character or claim that he adds nothing symbolically.

Though I don’t mind admitting that I don’t think I would be this much invested in Zack if he did succeed at the end or if he was the actual hero, because I love ff7’s subversion, including the tragedy of Zack’s death and I love that he ended up being an underdog character from a meta perspective, no one to be there with him in his last moments except the person who ended up forgetting him. Designed to keep failing despite his strength and designed to die alone and be forgotten, while having paid the steepest price of freedom. Even though I do like him more than Cloud, I definitely wouldn’t want him to be the protagonist.

Edited: fixed the link