SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

The war criminal stuff drives me crazy and it's literally the only time I will actively fight/argue in this fandom because WHAT are these people saying? Words have meaning!!! Being a soldier in a foreign country fighting a war doesn't automatically make you a war criminal. Committing WAR CRIMES makes you a war criminal and war crimes are very specific things. Zack can't just be a war criminal because he got deployed to Wutai during a war, that's not how that works!

Also, people can dance around the subject all they want… but Cloud being a mercenary is not his only distinction. In taking part in the bombing of Mako Reactors 1 and 5, he is effectively just as much a terrorist as the rest of Avalanche is.

So “war criminal” and “terrorist” being used to denigrate a character mean nothing in this franchise.

 

[Rin]

Yeah, exactly. So I'm just left ?? about the whole "war criminal" thing, lol. Like, why has this become actual discourse in fandoms? Not to mention that Zack is basically a child soldier at the beginning (he's what, sixteen? recruited even younger?) so how is he a war criminal? I actually tried to look up war crimes to see if there's any legitimacy to this "argument" but it was surprisingly hard to find information on the topic. One thing I did find, though, is that it's a war crime not to wear your soldier uniform and Zack wears his all the time so there goes that, lol.

To be honest, I'm kind of torn about Crisis Core's writing because it feels both melodramatic and stiff but it also kind of gives me samurai vibes.

So here's the UN's definition of war crimes:

Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:

• Willful killing
• Torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments
• Willfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health
• Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly
• Compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power
• Willfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial
• Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement
• Taking of hostages

Zack does absolutely none of these things. Fighting in a war, killing an oppositional soldier, etc. is not a war crime and it's absolutely insane to act like it is. And as you pointed out, Zack is a child soldier. He left home at 12-13 to join Shinra, so he was indoctrinated very young (just like Cloud was), so it's just very.... questionable and annoying.

And it's just such a conflation of actual issues. Like to conflate a character like Zack with war crimes is to very pointedly ignore what war crimes are and how serious they are. They are very intentional acts of evil! What Sephiroth did to Nibelheim? WAR CRIME. What Hojo did to Zack and Cloud? WAR CRIME.

Also, people can dance around the subject all they want… but Cloud being a mercenary is not his only distinction. In taking part in the bombing of Mako Reactors 1 and 5, he is effectively just as much a terrorist as the rest of Avalanche is.

So “war criminal” and “terrorist” being used to denigrate a character mean nothing in this franchise.

Yeah, exactly. Not to mention, Cloud WANTED to be a SOLDIER and he wanted to fight during the war. The man has made up a delusional scenario where he got deployed during the war lol and as Aerith said, "You sound proud of that."

The whole point of FF7 is that our entire cast (with the exception of Yuffie, Tifa, Nanaki, and Aerith) once believed in and aligned themselves with Shinra. None of them turned their back on Shinra because it was the right thing to do, they did it because they were burned by Shinra and that's a very realistic depiction of human nature because most people will say, "Well, i've never had a bad experience with them so..." and keep on trucking until they experience the worst.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Zack and Cloud are war crime-ees, not war criminals.

 

[GamerSkull]

So here's the UN's definition of war crimes:

Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:

• Willful killing
• Torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments
• Willfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health
• Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly
• Compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power
• Willfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial
• Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement
• Taking of hostages

Zack does absolutely none of these things. Fighting in a war, killing an oppositional soldier, etc. is not a war crime and it's absolutely insane to act like it is. And as you pointed out, Zack is a child soldier. He left home at 12-13 to join Shinra, so he was indoctrinated very young (just like Cloud was), so it's just very.... questionable and annoying.

And it's just such a conflation of actual issues. Like to conflate a character like Zack with war crimes is to very pointedly ignore what war crimes are and how serious they are. They are very intentional acts of evil! What Sephiroth did to Nibelheim? WAR CRIME. What Hojo did to Zack and Cloud? WAR CRIME.


Yeah, exactly. Not to mention, Cloud WANTED to be a SOLDIER and he wanted to fight during the war. The man has made up a delusional scenario where he got deployed during the war lol and as Aerith said, "You sound proud of that."

The whole point of FF7 is that our entire cast (with the exception of Yuffie, Tifa, Nanaki, and Aerith) once believed in and aligned themselves with Shinra. None of them turned their back on Shinra because it was the right thing to do, they did it because they were burned by Shinra and that's a very realistic depiction of human nature because most people will say, "Well, i've never had a bad experience with them so..." and keep on trucking until they experience the worst.

Honestly, the whole point is that things aren’t black and white. But when you categorize a characters as “war criminal” or “terrorist”, you are showing that you have a black/white worldview. Which I just don’t believe FF7 has.

While being these things is bad, sure. I think it’s important to understand the context of what’s happening to the characters around them.

Like Lelouch from Code Geass for example. He’s a war criminal to some extent. But people like him because he’s actually trying to achieve something. He’s not automatically irrelevant for doing war crimes.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Yeah, exactly. Not to mention, Cloud WANTED to be a SOLDIER and he wanted to fight during the war. The man has made up a delusional scenario where he got deployed during the war lol and as Aerith said, "You sound proud of that."

The whole point of FF7 is that our entire cast (with the exception of Yuffie, Tifa, Nanaki, and Aerith) once believed in and aligned themselves with Shinra. None of them turned their back on Shinra because it was the right thing to do, they did it because they were burned by Shinra and that's a very realistic depiction of human nature because most people will say, "Well, i've never had a bad experience with them so..." and keep on trucking until they experience the worst.

Yeah, that's another thing. The people who denigrate Zack as a war criminal also seem to think that all of Shinra shouldn't be depicted as anything less than irredeemably evil (including the 13-14-year-old child recruits too, I guess) while at the same time lauding the grey morality of the main characters -- whom you're already supposed to sympathise with, what with being the main characters -- and I'm honestly left a little confused on what these people even want, lol? So their reaction to Tifa helping some low-level Shinra employee is "omg, how dare they try to make Shinra sympathetic!" and I'm just, "okay? lol?"

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, that's another thing. The people who denigrate Zack as a war criminal also seem to think that all of Shinra shouldn't be depicted as anything less than irredeemably evil (including the 13-14-year-old child recruits too, I guess) while at the same time lauding the grey morality of the main characters -- whom you're already supposed to sympathise with, what with being the main characters -- and I'm honestly left a little confused on what these people even want, lol? So their reaction to Tifa helping some low-level Shinra employee is "omg, how dare they try to make Shinra sympathetic!" and I'm just, "okay? lol?"

Honestly, I think that’s good. Shinra has many employees and I expect most of them are innocent. Hell, I expect the Shinra Infantrymen Avalanche kills fighting through the Mako reactors might just be normal people who are making a living for their families.

Shinra as an evil corporation is mostly the executives up at the top. Much like real life, many corporations that suck still have innocent hard working employees at the bottom who just want to feed their families.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Honestly, I think that’s good. Shinra has many employees and I expect most of them are innocent. Hell, I expect the Shinra Infantrymen Avalanche kills fighting through the Mako reactors might just be normal people who are making a living for their families.

Shinra as an evil corporation is mostly the executives up at the top. Much like real life, many corporations that suck still have innocent hard working employees at the bottom who just want to feed their families.

Exactly. And considering that Shinra basically owns everything in the city, including the mass media, how is any low-level employee supposed to realise that they're evil? Life just isn't that black-and-white and most Japanese (and Korean) works of fiction that I've seen don't depict it that way either.

 

[nars305]

I can’t with the Twitter arguments anymore. Too much brain rot and delusion.

I’ll stay safe in here.

 

[GamerSkull]

Exactly. And considering that Shinra basically owns everything in the city, including the mass media, how is any low-level employee supposed to realise that they're evil? Life just isn't that black-and-white and most Japanese (and Korean) works of fiction that I've seen don't depict it that way either.

In Zack’s case, you can actually see how he gradually becomes more and more sour on Shinra over time. He is so excited to become First Class at the beginning, but all the shit with Angeal and Genesis essentially erodes his excitement and he basically doesn’t care when he’s finally promoted. He shows support for Cloud’s dream, but he warns Cloud that it’s a den of monsters later.

Ultimately, Zack has his own version of what SOLDIER is supposed to be and it does not fit with Shinra’s version.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Get them all a Sappy meal while he's at it.

Sappy Meal, that's the parody of Happy Meal I was looking for.

You have to listen to all the wrong people (Rufus, Hojo) to get that idea without listening to what Aerith herself says.

Materia Jesus said something only for her worshippers to ignore it so as to say and do what they want? Wow she's just like regular Jesus.

I remember pointing out that the goddamn fucking married man of the group didn't reference his wife, so why would we expect any of the others to reference their loved one.

We pointed out a lot of things that they never listened to.

Yes, do enjoy your debate/ debunking.

If you're not having fun the quality of your arguments will suffer, after all.

Ah yes, the "Anyone but Cloud" strategy. Tifa is with Barret, Johnny, Rude, Reno, Rufus, anyone but the man she formed a family with.

Anyone but Cloud is dishonest top to bottom. "Everyone Except Cloud" is wrong on a whole new level.

Har har, but no, this gacha actually gave those two characters a happy ending and also has allowed a bunch of characters to reunite (Lots of dead and missing parents in Fire Emblem.)

That's nice.

Indeed

You always wonder the thought process of the ones so forthright about it.

I assume there is very little thought involved.

That's what it's used for most of the time anyways.

True.

More like trying to use a weapon I casually tossed away like it was my primary armament. Like a spent flashbang she thought was my Excalibur.

So long as they proceed to harm themselves repeatedly in the attempt, I'm down for that comparison.

Why is BB? Existentially, that is.

A question that we will never answer.

Koroks vs 40K would be delightful and horrifying at the same time.

Did I mix up K names while referencing the proto-forest race from Skyward Sword? Though I agree Koroks in 40k would be demented either way.

Yep.

Yup.

Ideally one does, yes. Sadly not always.

Ideally one at least tries. Sadly, not always

There was a lot of shaming men for having highly sexual thoughts about Tifa, while his AV was a big titty Aerith with a materia in her cleavage.

Oh ok, my memory of him is clearing up. More than a hint of creeper. And a bucket of hypocrisy. Yeah, no thanks guy.

You heard the man, become porn stars.

I guess Lust is the sin of the day

No, it's Attenbrough, yes. Wouldn't want to startle the animals, after all.

Vegeta would be a horrible wildlife documentary guy, it is known.

Will do.

Excellent.

Nah, 90's isn't yet old timey. Once the 2030s come around, it might be. I think the line is somewhere in the 70s or early 80s right now.

Ok true, mid-90's grunge gets played at n classic rock stations. So we're getting there, but not yet.

Never throw away your primary weapon and never throw out a weapon you aren't fully prepared to see used against you if it comes down to it."

I see you prefer the condensed version I'm more accustomed to "Never throw your weapon if you haven't got another" for rule one.

Do note that rule one in any form is apt to be ignored by skilled shuriken wielders like Yuffie and anyone with a weapon enchanted to return to hand.

Vendel not having an off switch or settings below 10, but go ahead and give us the weed joke.

Of course, Vendel. That was actually intended as a set-up question for the joke, of course, but i shouldn't be surprised by you seeking clarity and certainty anyway.

At any rate, I think my phrasing needs some workshopping but: "Dude, this shit right here? The Great Gospel? Tastes like refreshing pink lemonade, dude, and just one hit can convince you what you wanna see us the literal truth against any and all evidence. It's potent shit, dude."

Exactly. The forensics of a false belief are important to understanding how to nip it in the bud in the future. Like knowing how the fusion swords became mistakenly known as "the first tsurugi" for example.

Hence people attempting to obfuscate the source point. It does them no good to make refuting their garbage easier. I see what you mean.

Instead of knocking walls down, you have to knock them sideways. And be careful with your direction so you don't knock them up. That gets you more houses, not more house.

Sounds very profitable, but gestation time s are just too long for good business. Plus the original house is nearly unlivable for the second and third trimesters.

It was me.

Said in a complete deadpan, yes? You're not smug, you don't regret it. You just.. are.

Because he's the sort to try- or claim to try- and show a movie to grade schoolers to win an online argument.

That is never going to not be a wildly bad take.

I might just be strange but I never found FF8 confusing. Poorly explained, but not confusing.

I've seen worse time tangles. FF8 isn't my jam, but it's timey wimey isn't that slippy slidey.

Plus he's not actually looking for Aerith at all, but Sephiroth.

If KH actually mattered, oh CAltists, it still wouldn't matter to you.

You know she would be. So would Zack, probably.

Remember Aerith watching Cloud at the Honeybee Inn? Yeah that's Aerith upon this suggestion. And if Aerith is into it, Zack is down to at minimum try it out once.

Nevermind everyone in FF7 can wear "her" ribbon.

In my long past youth, upon first viewing of AC, I didn't even get the significance of the ribbons. I just thought everyone was immune to status conditions

 

[Ryeleigh]

In Zack’s case, you can actually see how he gradually becomes more and more sour on Shinra over time. He is so excited to become First Class at the beginning, but all the shit with Angeal and Genesis essentially erodes his excitement and he basically doesn’t care when he’s finally promoted. He shows support for Cloud’s dream, but he warns Cloud that it’s a den of monsters later.

Ultimately, Zack has his own version of what SOLDIER is supposed to be and it does not fit with Shinra’s version.

Yeah, that's why I kind of get samurai vibes from CC, lol.

 

[overheat28]

Adding to this discussion about war criminals and terrorists.

The part with the seventh infantry at Junon didn't sit right with me, either. Everybody loves these guys, but Cloud and friends kill hundreds just like them on the regular. On top of that you basically trick them into slaughtering their own comrades in Junon.

So where is the line drawn? I highly doubt these guys are just that one unit that is super lovable in Shinra. They're just regular guys like most Shinra regulars, I'd assume, trying to provide for their families.

Ehh anybody throwing stones from a position of Cloud and friends = totally clean is on very shaky ground. Very few hands are clean in this universe.

 

[Rin]

Adding to this discussion about war criminals and terrorists.

The part with the seventh infantry at Junon didn't sit right with me, either. Everybody loves these guys, but Cloud and friends kill hundreds just like them on the regular. On top of that you basically trick them into slaughtering their own comrades in Junon.

So where is the line drawn? I highly doubt these guys are just that one unit that is super lovable in Shinra. They're just regular guys like most Shinra regulars, I'd assume, trying to provide for their families.

Ehh anybody throwing stones from a position of Cloud and friends = totally clean is on very shaky ground. Very few hands are clean in this universe.

God, yeah that scenario was weird as hell. Some people theorize they'll be our Highwind crew, which I can see, but the whole thing was weirdddd. And I felt bad in hard mode when some of them died.

 

[GamerSkull]

Adding to this discussion about war criminals and terrorists.

The part with the seventh infantry at Junon didn't sit right with me, either. Everybody loves these guys, but Cloud and friends kill hundreds just like them on the regular. On top of that you basically trick them into slaughtering their own comrades in Junon.

So where is the line drawn? I highly doubt these guys are just that one unit that is super lovable in Shinra. They're just regular guys like most Shinra regulars, I'd assume, trying to provide for their families.

Ehh anybody throwing stones from a position of Cloud and friends = totally clean is on very shaky ground. Very few hands are clean in this universe.

You can even go back to the OG with this. The Shinra soldiers you find in the submarine when you acquire it are the same ones that you march with up on Junon. And you have the option to kill them.

Or the two Shinra dudes in the elevator who are competing on who’s gonna get to ask out the lady that’s in the elevator with them. Slaughtered. By Cloud.

Pretty much just implied to be normal dudes with a job.

 

[null]

Actually more men are into CA I think, and more women into CT. There were several polls highlighting that.

That blows my mind. Ignoring her looks, Tifa’s overall character seems designed to appeal to men. Guys I knew offline were always into Tifa.

With Aerith, especially after Rebirth, I want to take her aside and say pssst you’re doing it wrong. Being fake scolded is annoying. Bringing up your ex is annoying. Using “dates” as an excuse to talk about other things is annoying. “You can’t fall in love with me” ok lady then quit invading my personal space all day. It comes off like mind games. Guys feel free to chime in but I think she’s an example of what not to do.

 

[GamerSkull]

That blows my mind. Ignoring her looks, Tifa’s overall character seems designed to appeal to men. Guys I knew offline were always into Tifa.

With Aerith, especially after Rebirth, I want to take her aside and say pssst you’re doing it wrong. Being fake scolded is annoying. Bringing up your ex is annoying. Using “dates” as an excuse to talk about other things is annoying. “You can’t fall in love with me” ok lady then quit invading my personal space all day. It comes off like mind games. Guys feel free to chime in but I think she’s an example of what not to do.

As a guy, and I do think this is still largely dependent on the individual so it may not apply to other guys… I do like women who are forward like Aerith but there are still some boundaries that I think she crosses that I might not be happy with.

However, the same is kinda true of Tifa, I’m also attracted to her personality type so… I dunno.

 

[overheat28]

That blows my mind. Ignoring her looks, Tifa’s overall character seems designed to appeal to men. Guys I knew offline were always into Tifa.

With Aerith, especially after Rebirth, I want to take her aside and say pssst you’re doing it wrong. Being fake scolded is annoying. Bringing up your ex is annoying. Using “dates” as an excuse to talk about other things is annoying. “You can’t fall in love with me” ok lady then quit invading my personal space all day. It comes off like mind games. Guys feel free to chime in but I think she’s an example of what not to do.

I don't know about the Japanese version but when she says "you're not him, and that's ok" to Cloud in the gondola, referring to Zack - that was the moment all arguments about Aerith actually wanting to move on died for me.

You don't say that on a date. You just don't, especially not when you're supposed to be moving on. That's not moving on, that's settling. Imagine if Cloud actually was treating this like a real date and heard that. You wouldn't need the dream date to confirm the friendzone anymore, all I'll say.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Sappy Meal, that's the parody of Happy Meal I was looking for.

Welcome.

Materia Jesus said something only for her worshippers to ignore it so as to say and do what they want? Wow she's just like regular Jesus.

Urge to make extremely inflammatory joke rising.

We pointed out a lot of things that they never listened to.

You could say it was everything we said, in the end.

If you're not having fun the quality of your arguments will suffer, after all.

Yes, make sure to take sanity breaks.

Anyone but Cloud is dishonest top to bottom. "Everyone Except Cloud" is wrong on a whole new level.

Hit bedrock and started drilling.

I assume there is very little thought involved.

Certainly none spared for self reflection.

So long as they proceed to harm themselves repeatedly in the attempt, I'm down for that comparison.

I mean that's what always seems to happen.

A question that we will never answer.

An eternal mystery, that one.

Did I mix up K names while referencing the proto-forest race from Skyward Sword? Though I agree Koroks in 40k would be demented either way.

You wound up naming the race of super-duper proto Orks from 40k. The Skyward creatures are the Kikwi.

Oh ok, my memory of him is clearing up. More than a hint of creeper. And a bucket of hypocrisy. Yeah, no thanks guy.

Yeah, he always seemed to be one of those "accusation is confession" types.

I guess Lust is the sin of the day

It's such a fun one.

Vegeta would be a horrible wildlife documentary guy, it is known.

Vegeta not shouting challenge, level impossible.

Ok true, mid-90's grunge gets played at n classic rock stations. So we're getting there, but not yet.

I shall simply return to being eldritch and ageless when it occurs.

I see you prefer the condensed version I'm more accustomed to "Never throw your weapon if you haven't got another" for rule one.

Do note that rule one in any form is apt to be ignored by skilled shuriken wielders like Yuffie and anyone with a weapon enchanted to return to hand.

Or skilled hand to hand combatants.

Of course, Vendel. That was actually intended as a set-up question for the joke, of course, but i shouldn't be surprised by you seeking clarity and certainty anyway.

At any rate, I think my phrasing needs some workshopping but: "Dude, this shit right here? The Great Gospel? Tastes like refreshing pink lemonade, dude, and just one hit can convince you what you wanna see us the literal truth against any and all evidence. It's potent shit, dude."

Maybe the Caltists need a bit less of the kush, then.

Hence people attempting to obfuscate the source point. It does them no good to make refuting their garbage easier. I see what you mean.

Having the crossover point also helps us learn how the lie mutates over time.

Sounds very profitable, but gestation time s are just too long for good business. Plus the original house is nearly unlivable for the second and third trimesters.

Plus they're technically your kids and people get mad when you try and sell those...

Said in a complete deadpan, yes? You're not smug, you don't regret it. You just.. are.

I mean I'm proud of the work I did but yeah, I was just stating a fact.

That is never going to not be a wildly bad take.

I think literally everyone, on both sides said it was kinda fucked up in general. That's how dumb it was.

I've seen worse time tangles. FF8 isn't my jam, but it's timey wimey isn't that slippy slidey.

It's a bit of a self causing time loop, but those are pretty common in fiction (See also: DrakeNeiR)

If KH actually mattered, oh CAltists, it still wouldn't matter to you.

"Even if X were part of the narrative, it wouldn't help your cause" is a pretty common response to CA pulling in outside sources.

Remember Aerith watching Cloud at the Honeybee Inn? Yeah that's Aerith upon this suggestion. And if Aerith is into it, Zack is down to at minimum try it out once.

Basically, yeah.

In my long past youth, upon first viewing of AC, I didn't even get the significance of the ribbons. I just thought everyone was immune to status conditions

It's a useful accessory. Shame it didn't protect against instant death

Adding to this discussion about war criminals and terrorists.

The part with the seventh infantry at Junon didn't sit right with me, either. Everybody loves these guys, but Cloud and friends kill hundreds just like them on the regular. On top of that you basically trick them into slaughtering their own comrades in Junon.

So where is the line drawn? I highly doubt these guys are just that one unit that is super lovable in Shinra. They're just regular guys like most Shinra regulars, I'd assume, trying to provide for their families.

Ehh anybody throwing stones from a position of Cloud and friends = totally clean is on very shaky ground. Very few hands are clean in this universe.

I find this is a reflection of the very common type of Manichean thinking that permeates the internet nowadays. There is no option for nuance. One flub, one step out of the approved discourse, and you are unpersoned. It's extremely reductive and unhelpful.

God, yeah that scenario was weird as hell. Some people theorize they'll be our Highwind crew, which I can see, but the whole thing was weirdddd. And I felt bad in hard mode when some of them died.

You can even go back to the OG with this. The Shinra soldiers you find in the submarine when you acquire it are the same ones that you march with up on Junon. And you have the option to kill them.

Or the two Shinra dudes in the elevator who are competing on who’s gonna get to ask out the lady that’s in the elevator with them. Slaughtered. By Cloud.

Pretty much just implied to be normal dudes with a job.

I have to assume the actual kill counts in general are much lower than we experience in game. Not that there are none, but that Cloud and Co do their best to keep human deaths to a minimum.

 

[Sacky]

That blows my mind. Ignoring her looks, Tifa’s overall character seems designed to appeal to men. Guys I knew offline were always into Tifa.

With Aerith, especially after Rebirth, I want to take her aside and say pssst you’re doing it wrong. Being fake scolded is annoying. Bringing up your ex is annoying. Using “dates” as an excuse to talk about other things is annoying. “You can’t fall in love with me” ok lady then quit invading my personal space all day. It comes off like mind games. Guys feel free to chime in but I think she’s an example of what not to do.

I prefer Tifa and Cloud because of the story and i like the empathetic nature and how they both save each other, and how we have a timeline of their early lives to young adults. Theres also the whole returns after thinking they would never meet again angle, and mutually pining after each other which creates fun story stuff. also fun to see a couple in media thats like a battle couple always in sync when fighting thats cool, Theres also a lot of angst and issues which make for great development and realistic portrayals of relationships. Aerith my first Remake playthrough i never thought clerith was a thing, I wouldn't have disliked it though However, with Tifa's existence and the way the story is written, focusing on their childhood memories and desire for each other, i really cannot like any other ship for them really. So if Tifa didn't exist, then yeah clerith would be interesting, though i would like there to be more conversations with Cloud asking stuff back and maybe even arguments or disagreements to have some development, the only real angst is her death and Zack sort of, but not really. I like Aerith in Remake i like her but a little less in Rebirth but that's more because i feel she was kind of wasted writing wise to still have way too much focus on Zack and Cloud when Clerith won't even be happening in the endgame. So yeah i think they almost stuck too faithfully to OG with Aerith. They got rid of the love triangle but still kept elements of it yet removed all jealousy as well. Her behaviour can be off-putting; it can be explained by her never leaving the midgar sector 5 slums and not really having any friends, only Zack as her close relationship. No one really tells her that her teasing like that in the Kalm underground is wrong though. so im not the biggest fan of that i understand why she acts like that not my thing though and i don't like how sometimes Clouds personal space is treated as a joke. Cloud in some scenes plays along but in others like the kalm underground he is tugging at her hand to let go it seems. Really its the writing though it feels like while every other characters writing was consistent, Aerith's writing can be all over the place on how she acts or what she says. Amazing in cosmo canyon. Temple, Niblehiem, Forgotten capital. Didn't like her bringing up if jessie was a girlfriend to Cloud while he is trying to say how much he valued her as a friend. Like if Cloud didn't agree to her as a girlfriend then they arent dating Aerith XD no matter what Jessies feelings where.

 

[Eerie]

I don't know about the Japanese version but when she says "you're not him, and that's ok" to Cloud in the gondola, referring to Zack - that was the moment all arguments about Aerith actually wanting to move on died for me.

You don't say that on a date. You just don't, especially not when you're supposed to be moving on. That's not moving on, that's settling. Imagine if Cloud actually was treating this like a real date and heard that. You wouldn't need the dream date to confirm the friendzone anymore, all I'll say.

This is why I say that to Cloud, in the gondola with Aerith, he is acting as a Zack stand-in. What he sees is that she’s all about him and feeling lonely, so since he knows Zack dies, he accepts to hold her hand like this. Aerith asking “until the end of the ride” actually enforces that. She knows what she asks for is wrong, but she still feels very lonely and sad.

The fact that Aerith still isn’t over Zack even in the dream date is pretty telling that even though she tries so hard, she just can’t.

 

[Ryeleigh]

The fact that Aerith still isn’t over Zack even in the dream date is pretty telling that even though she tries so hard, she just can’t.

They just don't make them like Zack anymore.

 

[nars305]

They just don't make them like Zack anymore.

Since you forced me to say it, I am Zack kind of woman.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Since you forced me to say it, I am Zack kind of woman.

Yeah, I think I'd pick Zack too. Partly because Remake put Cloud so firmly into the "little bro" category for me, lol.

 

[abzy1200]

The post was made a while ago but I'll still voice my concern again:

In my opinion, the devs have backed themselves into a corner regarding when to best reveal Aerith's death to Cloud. Or, atleast from the point of view that Cleriths could take an otherwise Cloti thing and run with it. It would still be a Cloti moment, but with Aerith's involvement there will be disengenuous people out there who will cling to what few moments they have in part 3.

1. Like the others have said, the Nortern Crater is supposed to be about Cloud, Tifa, and their past. It's a test of their bond. If Cloud's mental fracture comes as a result of Aerith's death, while I myself wouldn't say it's a Clerith thing, we all know who would, and I don't think we'd ever hear the end of it.

2. If Aerith's death is revealed to Cloud during the Lifestream sequence, then it's the same situation; It's a moment for Cloud and Tifa so it doesn't really have a place there. Again, while I myself wouldn't interpret Aerith's death being revealed to Cloud during the lifestream sequence to be a Clerith thing, we all know who would.

3. I would agree that when it comes to revealing Aerith's death to him, since the NC and the LS are moments about Cloud and Tifa, it would only make sense to do it when you return to the FC. However, I've said in the past that if Cloud goes into the LS, and comes out still fucked in the head then it feels insulting to Tifa and her role in the narrative. The LS is about two things; restoring and helping Cloud from his mental anguish/identity troubles and them revealing their feelings for each other. So if Cloud's mind is still stuck in this limbo zone between reality and a timeline in the lifestream, and it still is post LS, then Tifa has only fulfilled one of those things as opposed to both like she did in the original, therefore it feels like her big moment was overshadowed by Aerith somewhat. Well, not necessarily 'overshadowed', but complications introduced because of Aerith, her death, and the decision to have Cloud's mind stuck in this limbo zone is what prevents Tifa from fully having her moment.

What I'm trying to say here is: Atleast one major Cloti/Tifa thing will have to be sacrificed and be falsely interpreted as a Clerith thing taking a Cloti thing by disengenuous people no matter where or when the reveal to Cloud happens.

Then again, that's just how I feel. I could be interpreting the games or things said by other people here wrong, and if so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe their only lines together are in fact of her wishing him luck on finding his light, are they not?

And that he'll return to 'this place' once he finds Sephiroth, IIRC

It's worse when you realize how much of that comes from other women.

It's never nice to see women put other women down. The world is already kind against them, so it only make their situation worse.

Like, the idea isn't unheard of, but hand holding is the baby's first steps version.

Oh definitely. But added context and another party's Gold Saucer date tells me Cloud and Aerith's handholding isn't exactly 'tying' anything.

Yeah, because the only reason it's not romantic is because Tifa's in it and they can't admit that any scene with her could be romantic.

Same thing for UTH. I saw someone wrote a Clerith fic that was "UTH but with the canon love interest" lmao. The jokes write themselves.

Cloud and Tifa are like, third in line for most established FF main hero couple behind Cecil and Rosa and Nox and Luna, and the only reason Nox and Luna edge them out is because we do have depictions of their hypothetical future children.
Stupid fact of the day- The mocap actor for Ardyn in Kingsglaive as well as basically every other character is the man who plays Astarion in Baldur's Gate 3.

This is another thing, what more do Cleriths want from Cloud and Tifa? An on screen kiss maybe? oh wait.

She's going to need all of her skills to stay on this wild critter.

I don't know if it would be difficult, it was most likely really awkward. I headcanon it as such anyway.

I don't know about the Japanese version but when she says "you're not him, and that's ok" to Cloud in the gondola, referring to Zack - that was the moment all arguments about Aerith actually wanting to move on died for me.

You don't say that on a date. You just don't, especially not when you're supposed to be moving on. That's not moving on, that's settling. Imagine if Cloud actually was treating this like a real date and heard that. You wouldn't need the dream date to confirm the friendzone anymore, all I'll say.

This is exactly how I saw it aswell. Like, Cleriths, I dare you to tell the next person you go on a date with all about your ex and how the person you're on a date with currently reminds you of said ex. And then tell them; "you're not them, but that's okay".

And then let's see how many people feel up for a second date.

 

[Maidenofwar]

He's not tugging at her hand to let go in Kalm, slow down shows he was actually trying to close his grasp as she let go to run ahead, also Tifa takes Aerith's hand to pull her through the crowd in Gold Saucer.