SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[abzy1200]

It has to be a new level of delusionally ironic if Cleriths pretend to dislike Zack for Aerith because he's "not loyal", when Aerith getting with Cloud would literally require Cloud to not be loyal to his feelings for Tifa, and Aerith to be not loyal to her feelings for Zack. Apparently everyone can love someone before meeting their soul mate EXCEPT Zack.

If Cleriths were keen on being logical and recognising hypocrisy/irony...none of us would be on this thread right now lmao.

I just don't get the big deal about these characters fucking up and saying the wrong thing sometimes. Like people were saying Tifa is "toxic" for getting mad at Cloud in Kalm and asking where he's been all these years after she was forced to survive and suffer on her own. As if that's not the most realistic thing a woman who is fed up would say out of frustration. This didn't make her a bad person, it made her human.

Same goes for when she gives out to him in ACC, people act like she didn't have every right to be even the slightest bit upset with him.

 

[Sacky]

I just don't get the big deal about these characters fucking up and saying the wrong thing sometimes. Like people were saying Tifa is "toxic" for getting mad at Cloud in Kalm and asking where he's been all these years after she was forced to survive and suffer on her own. As if that's not the most realistic thing a woman who is fed up would say out of frustration. This didn't make her a bad person, it made her human.

Similarly, Aerith deflecting and running away from Zack's parents because she doesn't want to accept the truth about his death doesn't make her a bad person, either. Was it the right thing to do or say? No. But who cares? Not everyone says or does the right thing all the time. And yeah, sometimes it makes them "look bad" (tho this is subjective) but that's what makes them feel real.

Some people in stories love to put themselves into it and say, Well, this is out of character for the character to make this decision, or say that they would say or do something differently. Or not let a character make any mistake. Have they seen the kind of mistakes and people taking stuff the wrong way that happen in daily life? Like for example trying to put yourself in a characters shoes who have a different personality and motivations then them

 

[Ryushikaze]

And it becomes ridiculous because Cloud gets to waver between "both girls" but ZA wasn't serious because Zack was a flirt or had multiple girlfriends? So in other words, CA or CT aren't serious either, lol? One rule for me, another rule for thee.

Welcome to arguing based on your desired conclusion, not what the evidence shows us.

In same-sex ships/couples, the top's name comes first, lol. This is serious business because people have actually gotten into fights about it, lol.

I know it was that was for Yaoi where top and bottom are serious business, but I don't think that applies to all same sex couples.

But you could totally take Tifa out of the story and nothing would change! Cloud just wanted the whole village to notice him! He was confessing his crush on Sephiroth on the water tower! Aerith could totally do the Lifestream scene with Cetra magic!

Yes, I've actually seen all of those floating around, lol.

Yeah, all of that is an attempt to diminish Tifa's role in Cloud's narrative. And no diss to Aerith, but you remove her, you change far less of the narrative than if you remove Tifa. Just getting to the start of the game itself for Cloud involves Tifa multiple times, up to an including de-vegetating when he sees her. On the other hand, if we make it so Cloud never meets Aerith we lose out on Cloud remembering his mom, change how he deals with Wall Market, and changes the reason the party goes to attack ShinRa (After the plate drop they were gonna fight no matter what). Maybe Marlene dies in the plate drop, but that's a big change for Barrett, not Cloud.
Then I imagine the party would meet her and Red in ShinRa tower and go from there, but again, assuming they don't, things don't change much for the next several sections. Barret is probably the most instrumental character other than Cloud for the plot for awhile.

 

[nars305]

I find it so irritating that the only thing this scene evokes in people's minds is "what a slut."

Like. What's wrong with you? A girl survives a horrible night, she's alone. No home. No money. It was hard, but she got through it.

And the "first thing" her dear "childhood friend" says to her is: hey, I think this might be bullshit, because you're supposed to be dead.

Of course you're sad and mad. Even more when from her POV, dude wasn't even here.

And the only thing he has to say is : I can't tell you. Classified information.

How does slut even make sense lmao.

It’s annoying when people fail to use the context of the scene. What Tifa says is very emotionally charged. She was offended not just for herself being questioned but also all the people who worked hard to save her.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I find it so irritating that the only thing this scene evokes in people's minds is "what a slut."

Like. What's wrong with you? A girl survives a horrible night, she's alone. No home. No money. It was hard, but she got through it.

And the "first thing" her dear "childhood friend" says to her is: hey, I think this might be bullshit, because you're supposed to be dead.

Of course you're sad and mad. Even more when from her POV, dude wasn't even here.

And the only thing he has to say is : I can't tell you. Classified information.

From an outside POV we know he actually does mean "I cannot tell you. I want to, I cannot." and that thinking about it too hard makes his brain explode, and that he does mean that "I thought you had died back then" was meant out of concern, but yes, in the moment Tifa shows extreme patience and charity for the nonsense. Mostly because she already knows he's not fully himself and not fully well.

 

[Rin]

How does slut even make sense lmao.

It’s annoying when people fail to use the context of the scene. What Tifa says is very emotionally charged. She was offended not just for herself being questioned but also all the people who worked hard to save her.

Exactly and we, the players with knowledge of the OG, have context that our protagonists don't. So why on earth are we trying to hold them to some crazy high standard of morality and making the right choice/saying the right thing when they don't have all the info? It's so frustrating!!!

 

[Yoru]

How does slut even make sense lmao.

It’s annoying when people fail to use the context of the scene. What Tifa says is very emotionally charged. She was offended not just for herself being questioned but also all the people who worked hard to save her.

Well, it's also some of the people describing her as a fat lying controlling b$tch, making money sleeping with guys after work. So, yeah... I don't really care about their pov. But still. If they could keep their story to themselves, I wouldn't mind.

From an outside POV we know he actually does mean "I cannot tell you. I want to, I cannot." and that thinking about it too hard makes his brain explode, and that he does mean that "I thought you had died back then" was meant out of concern, but yes, in the moment Tifa shows extreme patience and charity for the nonsense. Mostly because she already knows he's not fully himself and not fully well.

Yes. Obviously I'm only describing how she feels in the moment, I'm not saying Cloud is the ultimate asshole.

I prefer to specify

 

[Ryeleigh]

I don't see the need to keep "charming guy" in Re-trilogy then, it just makes Aerith look bad, I don't like it. I wish there was more middle ground, as is either way I can't ship ZA. Selfishly I wish there was scene where Aerith discovers Zack's final thoughts and how committed he became, and Zack reassures her that he never blamed her.

Of course nothing is 100% certain but I am fairly certain that there are going to be ZA scenes in Part 3. Hopefully, they'll air all of the mysteries between them, and I have my fingers crossed for seeing them banter and fight together. I really want to see Zack see how far Aerith has become from that girl he protected, lol. Not sure if Part 3 will still make you ship them but hey, let's be positive and hope so.

And the only thing he has to say is : I can't tell you. Classified information.

Which is even funnier because Cloud just finished telling super secret classified information to the whole gang, lmao. Instead of calling Tifa toxic, people should praise her for not decking him, lol.

I know it was that was for Yaoi where top and bottom are serious business, but I don't think that applies to all same sex couples.

You're right. I don't actually know how yuri ship names work but I hope they at least don't have the nonsense top or bottom wars.

Hmmm, I wonder where you might be. Wait, let me guess...
You're hanging out with that Aerith girl again, aren't you?
I bet you're wondering how I got that information.
See, I know everything about you, even if you never tell me anything.
In other words, it's no use keeping secrets from me, because I know how to get information.
So talk to me, Zack. You can tell me anything.
Tell me about all the things that are wearing you down.​

To be honest, Kunsel's letter sounds like a giant red flag though. Should we change track for a while and make a Zack/Aerith/Kunsel debate?

 

[Rin]

To be honest, Kunsel's letter sounds like a giant red flag though.

No literally, he scares the hell out of me lmao I'm like WHY ARE YOU STALKING ME????

 

[Yoru]

Which is even funnier because Cloud just finished telling super secret classified information to the whole gang, lmao. Instead of calling Tifa toxic, people should praise her for not decking him, lol.

"Sorry can't tell you. Have to respect my contract with that corporation that sent their mad man burn our village and families and just killed thousand of people in Midgar to justify their new war"

No literally, he scares the hell out of me lmao I'm like WHY ARE YOU STALKING ME????

"I can be your Aerith too" heavy breathing sound on the phone

 

[Hellenic]

It’s high treason according to some…

This whole ladies man point of zack is so stupid and annoying. I wish it would just die. As if it's a bad thing that he's desirable by the ladies and a bit of a flirt, but we can clearly see his dedication to a single woman in general anyway.

 

[Rin]

It's very hypocritical, as some of you have already pointed out, since they don't have this smoke for Cloud at all who canonically does have 2 love interests lmao.

 

[Hellenic]

After looking at a recent reply that Shinra Archeology Department made, I was subjected to shipping tweets against my will.

Saw someone say in response to some video or post about Tifa (can’t remember since I clicked off as soon as I read it) that Tifa was some background side character compared to Aerith and “what game did they play?”

God, I’m so confused. Maybe this is why Nomura and Nojima aren’t afraid. They know that no matter what, the opposing side will still thrive on some bizarre headcanons that they’ll pretend is 100% canon.

Seriously, I’m so confused.

Each side is super confident in their victory, so that means one of us has to be delusional. I really hope Part 3 clears that up.

They just need to go all out and showoff how much of a main character Tifa is (i'd argue she felt more like one than Aerith did in Rebirth but i digress) and not give Aerith enough presence in next game and then the deniers can suck it up and bitch forever about how Square made the supposed "nobody" character so important couse their own braincells couldn't comprehend the truth.

 

[GamerSkull]

Well, the new thing I've been hearing is them going "I guess the OG is not canon to FFVII lol". Essentially trying to twist the fact that everything since the OG has been going one way as some sort of positive. The thinking being "well, if everything since OG is Cloti through retcon, then that must mean Clerith is the most faithful and true interpretation of the OG". Rather than "Apparently the OG wasn't clear enough and we need to be more blatant before you people understand it".


Ahhhh, but retcons don't count see, how silly are you for thinking the developers can ever have input on the story post release. This, btw, is why even if Cloti is so hard cemented in part 3 that even Cleriths can't deny it, they'll still not go away, they'll say its a retcon and that the OG (which they'll claim is Clerith) overrules it.

Yeah, I definitely see that being the case. They’ll claim Cloti is a retcon, even though I’d argue the OG is pretty Cloti endgame.

I have to believe this is truly just a minority of fans. No way a majority had such a borked interpretation.

They just need to go all out and showoff how much of a main character Tifa is (i'd argue she felt more like one than Aerith did in Rebirth but i digress) and not give Aerith enough presence in next game and then the deniers can suck it up and bitch forever about how Square made the supposed "nobody" character so important couse their own braincells couldn't comprehend the truth.

Yeah, I think Aerith was really most prominent at the end, tbh.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah, I think Aerith was really most prominent at the end, tbh.

Honestly, I'd started out with the idea that Rebirth would be an Aerith fest. And in the end, Tifa is omnipresent until the last chapter. So really, I'm glad there's a focus on Aerith before her death...

That's why I have a bit of doubt on the last game. We've been so spoiled with Tifa that I think it's too good to be true. They're going to have to stall a bit with Aerith. But if we stay on the same basis as OG. Oh boy. We're going to eat real good.

 

[Rin]

Honestly, I'd started out with the idea that Rebirth would be an Aerith fest. And in the end, Tifa is omnipresent until the last chapter. So really, I'm glad there's a focus on Aerith before her death...

That's why I have a bit of doubt on the last game. We've been so spoiled with Tifa that I think it's too good to be true. They're going to have to stall a bit with Aerith. But if we stay on the same basis as OG. Oh boy. We're going to eat real good.

Aerith will 100% be there in part 3, but her romantic b-plot with Cloud has wrapped. That's what the dream date was for, after all. From here, it's Zerith fest for sure.

 

[GamerSkull]

Aerith will 100% be there in part 3, but her romantic b-plot with Cloud has wrapped. That's what the dream date was for, after all. From here, it's Zerith fest for sure.

Here’s hoping. They have quite a bit to cover in Part 3 so that arc needs sufficient conclusion.

 

[ChaosandConfusion]

Aerith will 100% be there in part 3, but her romantic b-plot with Cloud has wrapped. That's what the dream date was for, after all. From here, it's Zerith fest for sure.

I hope so but wouldn't they make more money by giving something to both sides. I still see CT/ZA as endgame tho.

 

[nars305]

It seems obvious to me that all of Cloud and Tifa’s development in Rebirth is so certain scenes pack a real punch…his mind collapse, when Tifa stays with him through his mako coma, and of course the LS sequence.

I can only say that from my own perspective as someone who wasn’t invested after Remake but am now heavily invested in them after Rebirth.

Rebirth is basically an entire build up to the LS sequence in my opinion. There is so much foreshadowing.

 

[looneymoon]

re: Zack's multiple girlfriends.

One thing the Compilation does that I truly dislike is that it really... wipes the characters clean of their more complicated or unlikeable attributes.

Zack being a player but especially loving Aerith isn't something out of this world. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts. His screen time in the OG is limited, but the man spent the last five years in a test tube and was still thinking of her - that has got to count for something.

Cloud having feelings for two women is incredibly normal. There's plenty to indicate that he does. The text in the OG implies there is more conscious intention when lying to emulate his dead womanizer friend. Cloud himself does his own version womanizing between Aerith and Tifa, but like... stupidly, though lmao. I'm not denying that he ends up with Tifa here btw, thats a no brainer at this point.

OG Tifa, despite being closest to the "real" Cloud, 1000% projects onto him an idea of a "knight in shining armour." Which unintentionally fuels the insecurities that drives much of the main plot's conflict.

OG Aerith isn't exactly the beacon of sensitivity. Her personality sometimes leads to people's feelings getting hurt, and there are times when she just can't read the room.

Aerith and Tifa can be friends but also have petty jealousies towards each other. That's completely normal within friendships. Especially when they like the same guy - it'd be kind of weird if they didn't.

I'm not trying to be harsh or judgemental here. I just think the original depiction of the characters portrays their flaws as they are - flaws. Things that make them a little bit ugly. These are things that make me like them more, not less. Sometimes shit is a little complicated, and things aren't so black and white. I think that's cool.

The fandom could never really seem to handle these ideas without being super toxic about it though. I think also, as the series has gotten more franchised, the creators have had a desire lean into more archetypal/heroic depictions of the characters. Fan reaction + marketability strikes me as a lot of the motive behind this. I personally find this rather unfortunate, but it is what it is.

also, @Yoru I'm really not trying to hyper fixate on the LTD tbh I'm more just trying to stay on topic while also generally complain why I really dislike how this version depicts these characters. Believe me, I really am not much of a shipper, I'm just using it is the angle for which I'm entering into complain mode lmao. I could easily go into my annoyances about Barret/Yuffie/Red/Turks/etc, or even talk about Cloud/Tifa/Aerith/Zack without the LTD bent. I'm just trying to keep my thoughts pertinent to the topic because this feels like the safest space where I can air my grievances lmao.

 

[Hellenic]

And now people think SEPHIROTH will save Cloud (let's ditch Tifa), this fandom I swear

I will post later on (no time now) a little refocus on what's to wait for p3 on the CT side. Looking at my quotes I still don't know why people have such a hard time understanding which is the canon pairing.

How the hell did we come around to that?

 

[Hellenic]

While I agree that LTD can tend to ruin certain moments, I think you're getting a bit too fixated on it. The whole game isn't meant to be read under the spectrum of romance. Some parts are meant to be... some aren't.

It can't all be trench warfare between the two girls. And it's precisely at these moments that I think most of the Cloud voice actor's statements. Any exchange between a woman and a man must not be reduced only to its potential in terms of romance.

As for the team hardly reacting to Cloud going off. It's a fact that's explained in-game, but that few people have picked up on. I think it's more the game's fault than the people's, to be honest, but here's my reading of the situation:

Cloud is Captain America. The team needs him. They're simple people, nobodies. They manage to keep up with him, but he's the one doing the elimination work. That's why he's recruited by Avalanche in the first place. And that's why in the mithril mines they say they're counting on him. He's literally their strong arm. Without him, they can't do anything (according to them).

So yes, Cloud is going mad. Everyone looks at each other strangely. They know it stinks. But they have to deal with it. He's the only one they have to deal with their current situation.

And... he's their friend.

Also i partially fault OG for the whole "why is nobody confronting him about the issues properly" thing.

Game still needs to have the group go through the same steps as before to reach the low point where Cloud finally loses himself fully. If the characters gave up on him too early or started pushing him too hard at this point then we wouldn't really get a similar flow of events.

 

[looneymoon]

I'm sure I'm not the only person who's view of the story/characters has been broken by Cloud's mental decline in Remake/Rebirth. To me, the writers raised the stakes in such a careless manner. Stakes being raised doesn't automatically mean a conflict increases in impact. On a similar note, was all the time travel/AU plot shit super worth it to just have Zack chill at Elmyra's house for 90% of his screen time? It gives me the impression that they had little to no plan outside of fan service.

 

[Hellenic]

How does slut even make sense lmao.

Because she wears revealing outfits duuuh /s.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Also i partially fault OG for the whole "why is nobody confronting him about the issues properly" thing.

Game still needs to have the group go through the same steps as before to reach the low point where Cloud finally loses himself fully. If the characters gave up on him too early or started pushing him too hard at this point then we wouldn't really get a similar flow of events.

One of the weaknesses of the story imo, but I do think they pushing the degeneration thing is meant to dull the edge. Also explains Tifa’s patience considering she’s known about degeneration since early in Remake. She probably figures he’s degenerating at some rate and Gongaga is him finally opening up about his concerns of it.