SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Strangelove]

i remember the topic (or a similar one) coming up at some point in the Dark Times, The Before Times, about what language(s) has a precedent over others in terms of what you base your interpretation on, particularly for an audience whose main exposure to something has been derivatives like localised/translated version.

it feels a bit snobbish and elitist to be like 'only 100+ iq chads weeaboos can truly understand this game' but in a sense, kinda? i think even in cases where the original author work closely with translators, there's going to be some things that have to be altered from the source language because that's just a thing that happens. they presumably wrote the thing in their native language no matter how involved they were in translating it, that's what everything is based on. it doesn't necessarily mean that you will miss out on big major elements of plot or whatever, but i think there'd be differences in how you can interpret dialogue or such in ways that might not in a translation.

so ultimately, to get closer to the original intent without going through filters you would go to the original language.

but this makes it a limiting conversation since it requires a skill that (unless you were raised bilingual) requires effort and time to acquire, and it might suck to hear that you can't take an active part in some discussion because you don't know the original language. how are you meant to reply to someone dismissing your reading of something you have strong feelings about, because the original language says something different but you don't speak it so you won't get it? and this is the internet, where everyone must have a take on everything, so it's no fun to be gated out from a topic.

but it's just a game. not being able to analyse it in the most pure form isn't a character flaw, it's just a thing that at the end of the day doesn't matter.


my brain peaced out like half way through writing that and i don't know what my point was anymore. i think i'm disassociating and just floating away from my body now so i am going to stop here.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Nah I think I got what you mean. The thing is there are some concepts that just don’t translate entirely across languages. The German word Geist can just be translated as ghost or spirit or essence or a number of other words (it’s cognate to ghost, obviously), but there are so many connotations to the word that don’t completely match any single word in English that you’d really want to just put a footnote explaining the word. And if you do that for every word like that, you don’t end up with a translation; you end up with an academic dissertation that looks like a David Foster Wallace or Terry Pratchett novel. (Latin is even worse about this than German is, btw; nearly every word in Latin has about a dozen translations.)

And that’s just single-word concepts. Then there are idioms from one language that won’t translate to others because the speakers of that language don’t have the same associations for that idiom. So do you try to find another idiom from the other language that expresses a similar sentiment? But then you’re not translating; you’re localising. Which is fine, but if you really want to be accurate, you’ve got to start footnoting again.

So while it might feel a bit elitist and snobbish to say “you need to speak the original language to fully grasp the context,” it’s probably accurate. But the MST3K mantra, adapted to video games, probably applies to discussions like this: “It’s just a video game; I should really just relax.”

…really, that sums up the whole LTD, now that I think of it :V

 

[youffie]

At the end of the day, there is no such a thing as a perfect translation: what you get is someone’s personal interpretation on someone else’s work, which means the end result is inherently flawed because 1) people are always different and 2) languages and cultures never perfectly overlap, not even for those languages and cultures that are very close (Spanish and Italian come to mind). It’s also why translations “get old” and new generations of translators tackle old classics, but the original material is “immortal” and doesn’t (or shouldn’t) get updated even if languages and customs change and evolve over time. With video games, it gets even more complicated because both the writing process and the translation (and extensive editing) are a team effort, but there’s no need to get into that.

Since this thread is all about analyzing very little nuances from every possible angle, though, I think it’s nice that we have different perspectives on the same scenes and some of the more intriguing lines. It’s not about what translation is “canon” and not even about which translation is more “technically correct”, since it's clear that the only canon material here is the Japanese… For me it’s more about having a chance to see someone’s else take and angle on certain things, and see if there's something of merit there, if we can find a new insight that we hadn't thought of before. And that's always good in my book.

I am a translation and language nerd though, and I know that “canon" translations are… a very sensitive issue for this thread, especially on this forum so I get it why some people don't care for this kind of discussion. Sorry for the digression!

 

[looneymoon]

I really like the Tim Rogers video series "Let's Mosey: A Slow Translation of FF7" and mention it a lot. It is... a great piece of storytelling in itself, about how a translation takes a life of its own. In the west, the line "let's mosey" has become a definitive moment for Cloud and FF7 in general, but Tim's take on what he says in the Japanese was... very powerful. The way he brings it together with the Japanese line, which takes the wording/phrasing to when Cloud speaks to the party after Aerith's death, to Tim's own experience with grief... it's *chef's kiss* very good.

Spoiler

I may have cried the first time I listened to it.

 

[Strangelove]

can you apply death of the author to the process of translation

destruction of the original

 

[Purple]

That's the message, and I think it was conveyed appropriately. Don't get too attached to the idea that Aerith can live, and Cloud can have a happy ending with her. That's not on the table and never has been

I agree. When I first saw it, I thought it was very meta. Personally speaking, it’s that and then some. Some players also think it was just theory fodder in regards to time travelling and where the next game will go. It’s really interesting to see people’s reactions to it. From “omg it’s Aerith from the future! This game is a sequel!!” to “omg Cloud just confessed his love!!”

I think the devs got what they wanted in the end, people theorizing what it all means. Maybe Kitase is reading this thread as we speak LOL

 

[Edley]

can you apply death of the author to the process of translation

destruction of the original

Postmodernist Hito is my fav. Biggs and Wedge might as well be Barthes and Brecht.

Stone Temple Pilots said it best, her name is what it means. Then again, Weiland was talking about heroin. Nevermind.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Postmodernist Hito is my fav. Biggs and Wedge might as well be Barthes and Brecht.

Good sir, you get my like just for that HUGE posmo reference alone.
But seriously no postmodernism in the thread plz and thanx.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Stone Temple Pilots said it best, her name is what it means. Then again, Weiland was talking about heroin. Nevermind.

just thought this thread should know that i am literally playing a level called Stone Temple PIlates as we speak. it’s very difficult and i keep dying it’s a great level though. if i had a successful completion yet i’d post the video here here’s the creator’s gameplay/commentary instead:

also, to tie this back to the language discussion, weiland can mean “once” or “in old times” in German, though it’s usually archaic or humorous now

i am also really looking forward to this devolving into an argument about postmodernism, and how the fight between CxT vs. CxA shippers can be compared to some sort of subjective readings of reality or something. idek. i need to log off and complete more work

 

[Graymouse]

I will say, that you do get a lot more out of the Remake if you can understand Japanese. There are a lot of things that just wasn't translated over to English that can be missed. Coincidentally, even if you understand Japanese, you can still miss things if you didn't grow up in Japan or be in Japan for a long period of time. There are some things, that would be kinda hard to pick up on if you didn't know about the culture before hand.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Now we have to know Moon runes to post here? Well, damn. Count me out.

@Graymouse , any particular example?

 

[Graymouse]

Now we have to know Moon runes to post here? Well, damn. Count me out.

@Graymouse , any particular example?

An easy example would be all the hand gestures that Tifa makes in CH3. That is straight out of Anime' for sure. I have watched a couple of streams on YT who took the streamer by surprise when she did those gestures. It could be very off putting for someone who doesn't know. I do believe Aerith has some as well but not sure. I do know that Tifa does her gestures a lot.

 

[Purple]

If that is the case then why is this CH14 scene even being discussed. The answer is obvious

It’s a fact that some nuances are lost in translation, but I think the different localizations are enough to get a very good grasp of the story. And the localized versions are still valid points for story discussion.

Is there a line in the English version that was drastically changed from Japanese that it totally lost its meaning?

Yes, Japanese is the canon language but that’s not to say we should end all discussions just because “it’s X” in Japanese when in fact the meaning is also “X” in English at the end of the day

 

[Cat on Mars]

An easy example would be all the hand gestures that Tifa makes in CH3. That is straight out of Anime' for sure. I have watched a couple of streams on YT who took the streamer by surprise when she did those gestures. It could be very off putting for someone who doesn't know. I do believe Aerith has some as well but not sure. I do know that Tifa does her gestures a lot.

I know that because I used to be a weeb and they're pushing the cute angle on her mannerisms and general demeanor... and it's working. Also, she's totes adorbs in JP.
I find that in the JP version characters move and talk more like real people, EN suffers certain disconnect between mannerisms and expressions, like something's off... That might be me, though.
However, in the EN version several times lines aren't delivered in time. When Cloud meets Marle is the most obvious example, Marle keeps talking when her line is over. Ooof.

 

[MasterMoogle]

And that's a wonderful...asset to have ngl.


Aw shit. I got a sinking feeling in my stomach reading this. I thought I was the only one who felt like she was looking straight at ME when she said that. I'm already so attached to her character. View attachment 6129

I don't know about Aerith, but I guarantee you they're going to kill off Cloud and Barret. That's the only thing giving me hope that Aerith could live.

At the end of the day, there is no such a thing as a perfect translation: what you get is someone’s personal interpretation on someone else’s work, which means the end result is inherently flawed because 1) people are always different and 2) languages and cultures never perfectly overlap, not even for those languages and cultures that are very close (Spanish and Italian come to mind). It’s also why translations “get old” and new generations of translators tackle old classics, but the original material is “immoral” and doesn’t (or shouldn’t) get updated even if languages and customs change and evolve over time. With video games, it gets even more complicated because both the writing process and the translation (and extensive editing) are a team effort, but there’s no need to get into that.

Since this thread is all about analyzing very little nuances from every possible angle, though, I think it’s nice that we have different perspectives on the same scenes and some of the more intriguing lines. It’s not about what translation is “canon” and not even about which translation is more “technically correct”, since it's clear that the only canon material here is the Japanese… For me it’s more about having a chance to see someone’s else take and angle on certain things, and see if there's something of merit there, if we can find a new insight that we hadn't thought of before. And that's always good in my book.

I am a translation and language nerd though, and I know that “canon" translations are… a very sensitive issue for this thread, especially on this forum so I get it why some people don't care for this kind of discussion. Sorry for the digression!

The english version also got the meaning of the flower wrong. In japanese the yellow flower simply means "reunion," not "reunion between lovers."

Now we have to know Moon runes to post here? Well, damn. Count me out.

@Graymouse , any particular example?

I haven't even passed Flower Symbolism 101. Gaming is hard.

 

[Graymouse]

It’s a fact that some nuances are lost in translation, but I think the different localizations are enough to get a very good grasp of the story. And the localized versions are still valid points for story discussion.

Is there a line in the English version that was drastically changed from Japanese that it totally lost its meaning?

Yes, Japanese is the canon language but that’s not to say we should end all discussions just because “it’s X” in Japanese when in fact the meaning is also “X” in English at the end of the day

Yeah, an example was the train graveyard scene. I mentioned it about a couple of pages ago.

Let me dig it up, if I can.

 

[Graymouse]

@Purple

Spoiler: sorry for the double post but I think this is the only way.

If you actually play the game with Japanese VA you can really start to see that a lot of the dialog throughout the game leans heavily on the Tifa X Cloud side of the triangle. This is why a lot of people are claiming that SE is really pushing Tifa and Cloud.

The English localization has taken a lot of the Tifa and Cloud edge out of some of the conversations between the characters an example of this is the famous train graveyard where Aerith says:

English, "it'll be fine. We got a bodyguard. Mine" This is absolutely not what she said in Japanese.
Japanese: "Daijoubu, sugoi de no bodyguard, irukara." It will be ok because we got a great bodyguard here, right?"

In this instance there is no reason for Tifa to be jealous. When others try to make it out that Tifa was jealous in this scene, it doesn't make any sense at all. It was already previously established that Tifa is terrified of ghosts. That is what Aerith is playing off of in this scene, but in English for some reason they changed the entire contex of the scene.

Before you go to Wall Market is another example, when Aerith insists on rescuing Tifa:

English: Aren't you worried about what might happen in there?"
Japanese: たいせつ な ひと でしょ？ ( isn't that the person you cherish, right?"

For contex, this could be understood as someone who cherishes someone because it is the same phrase that Aerith told Elmyra when her husband passed away in one of the flash backs.
大切 な 人 が 死んじゃったよ (an important person who you cherished has died)

If you start to re-analyze the entire Remake, you will be shockingly surprised how much liberty the English localization team took from the original Japanese Remake script and twisted and quite honestly changed a lot of the context in a lot of the scenes. Of course there are some things that don't translate well into English, and also some things have be be fixed because of the mouth animation and the timing and all. I just feel that a lot of the context of the scenes are lost in translation for lack of better words.

In English it makes Tifa look like she is Jealous
In Japanese it makes Tifa more concerned with being frightened of ghosts.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I haven't even passed Flower Symbolism 101. Gaming is hard.

Crap, I forgot about that! I've really fallen behind in class this year...
When did gaming get so difficult?! Even playing FF Tactics with subpar English skills was easier than this.
edit: formatting

 

[Final_Heaven]

@Purple


In English it makes Tifa look like she is Jealous
In Japanese it makes Tifa more concerned with being frightened of ghosts.

So this is where I disagree with you. While, yes those are the correct translations. The English version just emphasizes what's already there in the Japanese version.

You can tell Tifa is jealous by body language and facial cues alone. She squints and grumbles a little when the camera goes back to her after Aerith holds Cloud's arms which is what prompts Tifa to do the same with Cloud.

The English translation actually made Aerith come off worse though because it made Aerith look like she was claiming Cloud rather than Aerith accidentally setting off Tifa's jealousy. I would also argue that makes Tifa's interest in Cloud more obvious to new fans in the English Dub.

Now I agree thought that they should've left it in as "Isn't that the person you cherish?"

But hey, the English localization did make sure to emphasize Cloud's interest in Tifa by making the Reunion flower into a "Reunion of Lovers" flower so I can't be too mad.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Thanks @Final_Heaven!

Spoiler

I like the cherish thing because it reminds me Advent and the thing with Sephiroth and Cloud's "there isn't a thing I don't cherish!"

 

[Final_Heaven]

Reference to "Under the Highwind"? Yes? No?

Thanks @Final_Heaven!

Spoiler

I like the cherish thing because it reminds me Advent and the thing with Sephiroth and Cloud's "there isn't a thing I don't cherish!"

Nice catches.

 

[Graymouse]

You can tell Tifa is jealous by body language and facial cues alone. She squints and grumbles a little when the camera goes back to her after Aerith holds Cloud's arms which is what prompts Tifa to do the same with Cloud.

Listen to the entire section from when the door opens up and you will understand why Tifa had that expression on her face. It was not of jealousy. It was because she was scared. You have to watch the entire sequence and not cherry pick a moment out at the end of the conversation
The visual and audio cue was more of a exacerbated sigh, because Aerith was making Tifa do something that she didn't want to do. To go through the doors. Not because she was Jealous of Aerith holding on to Cloud's arm.

Edited to add: I do see the point though, on how it can be interpreted differently and I acknowledge that.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Tifa's face in the OG looks like this :3

Reference to "Under the Highwind"? Yes? No?

No, but just because Cloud is always watching Tifa.


ETA:

Listen to the entire section from when the door opens up and you will understand why Tifa had that expression on her face. It was not of jealousy.

Tbh she looks concerned and tense. Some people see jealousy, I see uneasiness.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Tifa is not jealous in that scene. Why are people trying to attribute that combination of emotions to the scene when it was specifically not about that at all?

Yes, the Japanese explicitly matters here because it reflects the narrative meaning, authorial intent and characterization attributed to Tifa. This isn't about nuance, it's is about consistency of character and the understanding of what's depicted in the text or scene in the game. If we're going to try to analyze and get a read on Tifa as a character, then we need to ensure our analysis of said character is accurate. Otherwise we're essentially talking about someone else.

In fact, I never even took the line as jealous in English. Tifa seemed scared, cause she's afraid of ghosts. And she wanted to cling to Cloud as well. It wasn't about being jealous or stupid crap like that. And the fact that that's what the Nojima and Nomura intended for the scene, reflects that explicit meaning and understanding of Tifa's character. Making this about some possessive jealousy when it's not, is a misread of her character and projecting characteristics onto her that are not meant to be there. It's that simple.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Tifa is not jealous in that scene. Why are people trying to attribute that combination of emotions to the scene when it was specifically not about that at all?

Yes, the Japanese explicitly matters here because it reflects the narrative meaning, authorial intent and characterization attributed to Tifa. This isn't about nuance, it's is about consistency of character and the understanding of what's depicted in the text or scene in the game. If we're going to try to analyze and get a read on Tifa as a character, then we need to ensure our analysis of said character is accurate. Otherwise we're essentially talking about someone else.

In fact, I never even took the line as jealous in English. Tifa seemed scared, cause she's afraid of ghosts. And she wanted to cling to Cloud as well. It wasn't about being jealous or stupid crap like that. And the fact that that's what the Nojima and Nomura intended for the scene, reflects that explicit meaning and understanding of Tifa's character. Making this about some possessive jealousy when it's not, is a misread of her character and projecting characteristics onto her that are not meant to be there. It's that simple.

Being jealous is normal in a healthy relationship. No one really knows what was intended by that scene, though the original japanese dialogue doesn't indicate jealousy, but people are getting worked up over whether or not Tifa was jealous as if it makes her a horrible person.