SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Makoeyes987]

Um, if the original Japanese dialogue doesn't indicate jealousy, then that's the intention of the crafting of the scene. Human will and intention crafted that scene and wrote the characterization of all characters in this game. So how they're conveyed and crafted is the authorial intent. That's what you take from the scene, and factor in when analyzing the character.

How normal one perceives jealousy and it's target is subjective and completely dependent on the person and it's circumstance. And most people do not like jealousy, it's seen as a vice and weakness of character for a reason. Furthermore, this is the beginning of FFVII, Cloud and Tifa are not going steady or in a relationship here. They've reunited over the course of several days. Let's not pretend this is the emotional flare up between a couple who's been together for years. That's not happened yet.

Idk about that. Tifa was jealous in the OG as well so it makes sense if they put those characteristics at play here.

And this isn't the OG

They made it a point to remove that characterization entirely.

Whoa....I just realized why I felt you people were blind.

The English Dub actually changes the face Tifa makes and added more of a grumble.

I was making that observation based on her face which i thought would stay the same between English and Japanese. I didn't think they'd change facial animatons too.

It's a changed animation to match her English dialogue and once again I don't see this supposed jealousy. I see her looking afraid and bothered, which then leads her not wanting to be alone in facing the situation, so she gets close to Cloud. Because she's definitely wanting to hide behind him and his protection too. Trying to jam jealousy into a character that's not being depicted as such is really bizarre.

 

[Graymouse]

The English localization really did Tifa dirty in the that scene.

Being jealous is normal in a healthy relationship. No one really knows what was intended by that scene, though the original japanese dialogue doesn't indicate jealousy, but people are getting worked up over whether or not Tifa was jealous as if it makes her a horrible person.

I think people get worked up about that scene is because it is being pushed as a shipping moment for Aerith when it is not.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't even see it as dirty, there's literally just her looking scared and bothered by the fact she's being confronted with ghosts.

She doesn't want to be left alone to face whatever scary phantoms that are ahead. And Tifa's been built up repeatedly throughout the chapter, as scared of supernatural things like.. Ghosts.

This divorced, acontextual reading of the scene as simply a jealous flare up, while ignoring the entirety of the chapter that leads up to this and her desire to simply cease feigning courage and get behind Cloud too, is silly. Tifa notices Aerith's honesty in openly using Cloud as a bodyguard and wishes to do the same. That's not jealousy, given the context.

 

[Final_Heaven]

Um, if the original Japanese dialogue doesn't indicate jealousy, then that's the intention of the crafting of the scene. Human will and intention crafted that scene and wrote the characterization of all characters in this game. So how they're conveyed and crafted is the authorial intent. That's what you take from the scene, and factor in when analyzing the character.

How normal one perceives jealousy and it's target is subjective and completely dependent on the person and it's circumstance. And most people do not like jealousy, it's seen as a vice and weakness of character for a reason. Furthermore, this is the beginning of FFVII, Cloud and Tifa are not going steady or in a relationship here. They've reunited over the course of several days. Let's not pretend this is the emotional flare up between a couple who's been together for years. That's not happened yet.



And this isn't the OG

They made it a point to remove that characterization entirely.



It's a change animation to match her dialogue and again I don't see this jealousy. I see her looking afraid and bothered, and then wanting to get close to Cloud because she's certainly wanting to hide behind him and his protection too. Trying to jam jealousy into a character that's not being depicted as such is really bizarre.

I still think the Japanese version can be read as jealousy. It's in an in-between zone.

The English version though is definitely jealousy.

Look if they didn't want me to think it was potential jealousy then they shouldn't have panned to Tifa's face right after Aerith grabbed his arm. Why'd they do that? What were they trying to emphasize from going from one shot to the next?

You have to look at the cinematic intent of the scene and not just the words on a paper. Why did they have Tifa copy Aerith exactly and hold Cloud's other arm? Was it jealousy? Was it fear? Was it both?

This scene is definitely interpretable.

And being jealous isn't a bad thing. It's not like Tifa is mean to Aerith out of jealousy or something.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Let's say for the sake of argument that Tifa is jealous in that scene.
What now?

 

[Graymouse]

I still think the Japanese version can be read as jealousy. It's in an in-between zone.

The English version though is definitely jealousy.

Look if they didn't want me to think it was potential jealousy then they shouldn't have panned to Tifa's face right after Aerith grabbed his arm. Why'd they do that? What were they trying to emphasize from going from one shot to the next?

You have to look at the cinematic intent of the scene and not just the words on a paper. Why did they have Tifa copy Aerith exactly and hold Cloud's other arm? Was it jealousy? Was it fear? Was it both?

This scene is definitely interpretable.

And being jealous isn't a bad thing. It's not like Tifa is mean to Aerith out of jealousy or something.

The thing is you are forgetting about the build up of the entire Chapter. Nevermind Makoeyes took the words right out off my keyboard.

I don't even see it as dirty, there's literally just her looking scared and bothered by the fact she's being confronted with ghosts.

She doesn't want to be left alone to face whatever scary phantoms that are ahead. And Tifa's been built up repeatedly throughout the chapter, as scared of supernatural things like.. Ghosts.

This divorced, acontextual reading of the scene as simply a jealous flare up, while ignoring the entirety of the chapter that leads up to this and her desire to simply cease feigning courage and get behind Cloud too, is silly. Tifa notices Aerith's honesty in openly using Cloud as a bodyguard and wishes to do the same. That's not jealousy, given the context.

 

[Final_Heaven]

The thing is you are forgetting about the build up of the entire Chapter. Nevermind Makoeyes took the words right out off my keyboard.

Well again, why not both?

Let's say for the sake of argument that Tifa is jealous in that scene.
What now?

Nothing. It just shows even Tifa can get a little jealous too just like Cloud.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Nothing. It just shows even Tifa can get a little jealous too just like Cloud.

What does that mean and how is it relevant to this debate?

 

[Final_Heaven]

What does that mean and how is it relevant to this debate?

I'm saying it doesn't mean much. It's just a character trait.

There is no debate anymore if we all agree that Tifa is jealous or potentially jealous in that scene because that is the debate.

 

[Graymouse]

Well again, why not both?



Nothing. It just shows even Tifa can get a little jealous too just like Cloud.

I don't think anyone here thinks that Tifa can't get jealous. Of course she can. But just not in this scene and not to push a Cloud and Aerith ship. That is all I am saying. That is the only reason why people say that Tifa is jealous of Aerith.

Also, I believe the Devs said in several interviews that they took meticulous care to take out all of the OG jealously scenes in the Remake. If they did so, then why leave this here? This scene was not designed to be a scene were Tifa is jealous of Aerith.

If we were to play devils advocate, let's say Tifa is jealous. What then? It doesn't push any of the narrative up to this point forward. Also, it goes against what we have seen these two do together up to this point. Tifa being jealous here is way out of place. It does't make logical sense in the narrative for her to be so.

Edited to add some things in the second paragraph after I read it back. Sorry.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Well, that was anticlimatic.

Still, I don't see how Tifa being jealous or not is a debate or what does that have to do with the LTD.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I still think the Japanese version can be read as jealousy. It's in an in-between zone.

The English version though is definitely jealousy.

But there's no implication of jealousy in that text. How are you getting "an in-between zone?"

At least with English there's the reason for cultural differences and interpretations of how one conveys a line but the Japanese is definitely not trying to convey that. So why are we now trying to make that depiction about jealousy too?

Look if they didn't want me to think it was potential jealousy then they shouldn't have panned to Tifa's face right after Aerith grabbed his arm. Why'd they do that? What were they trying to emphasize from going from one shot to the next?

I already explained that. She's put up a front the entire chapter up until that point, of not actually being scared of the ghosts and stories of the train graveyard, then she notices Aerith openly saying to let Cloud go first and hide behind him. Tifa is shy with her emotions and being that forward, so she notices Aerith's openness and then decides to do the same.

This is an injection of relationship nonsense that doesn't need to be injected into the text for it to make sense. A classic example of bias. Because you're looking at this scene with the OG in mind and her flare up of jealousy showcased in the Shinra Building's prison cell, you now think that's somehow still present and you immediately fall to that interpretation to read instances of Tifa here that depict Cloud and Aerith. That's not implied here in this scene or the context of the chapter.

You have to look at the cinematic intent of the scene and not just the words on a paper. Why did they have Tifa copy Aerith exactly and hold Cloud's other arm? Was it jealousy? Was it fear? Was it both?

Again, there's no indication of jealousy in any of the lead up or context of this chapter. The scene makes perfect sense without a reading of Tifa somehow being jealous and possessive of Cloud. It's unnecessary injection into interpretation. We can look at what's there and the context of the chapter.

This scene is definitely interpretable.

And being jealous isn't a bad thing. It's not like Tifa is mean to Aerith out of jealousy or something.

Everything is interpretable, by that metric. Can we read anything we wish from every scene and then simply inject our subjective bias and belief into what's there, regardless of the intent provided?

That's a subjective viewpoint, as well. How much jealousy isn't "a bad thing" depends on the context, person, and circumstance. There's definitely no reason to be jealous here, and I'll say yeah, it's definitely not a good thing. Why would she be jealous? Aerith certainly hasn't done anything that makes Tifa have to be jealous. The only time, there's the closest hint of jealousy, is Tifa's honest question to Cloud of who Aerith is and how he knows her in the previous chapter. And even then, it's about the most innocuous interpretation of jealousy one can have. That certainly makes more sense as reading of Tifa being "jealous" then her being scared and clinging to Cloud's other arm.

 

[Final_Heaven]

I don't think anyone here thinks that Tifa can't get jealous. Of course she can. But just not in this scene and not to push a Cloud and Aerith ship. That is all I am saying. Also, I believe the Devs said in several interviews that they took meticulous care to take out all of the OG jealously scenes in the Remake. If they did so, then why leave this here? This scene was not designed to be a scene were Tifa is jealous of Aerith.

If we were to play devils advocate, let's say Tifa is jealous. What then? It doesn't push any of the narrative up to this point forward. Also, it goes against what we have seen these two do together up to this point. Tifa being jealous here is way out of place. It does't make logical sense for her to be so.

I honestly don't think that scene pushes Clerith anymore than Cloti. I'd even argue that it pushes the Tifa ship more because Tifa is showing obvious interest in Cloud moreso than usual. You don't get jealous over friends but love interests or people you're in a relationship with after all.

I haven't read of any interview of them saying that. If they said that though then that'd be different.

You can be friends with someone that you're jealous of. It's referenced a little in Nojima's writings from both Aerith and Tifa. Of course that was the OG timeline though.

Well, that was anticlimatic.

Still, I don't see how Tifa being jealous or not is a debate or what does that have to do with the LTD.

i guess some people think that pushes Clerith more if Tifa gets jealous.

But there's no implication of jealousy in that text. How are you getting "an in-between zone?"

At least with English there's the reason for cultural differences and interpretations of how one conveys a line but the Japanese is definitely not trying to convey that. So why are we now trying to make that depiction about jealousy too?



I already explained that. She's put up a front the entire chapter up until that point, of not actually being scared of the ghosts and stories of the train graveyard, then she notices Aerith openly saying to let Cloud go first and hide behind him. Tifa is shy with her emotions and being that forward, so she notices Aerith's openness and then decides to do the same.

This is an injection of relationship nonsense that doesn't need to be injected into the text for it to make sense. A classic example of bias. Because you're looking at this scene with the OG in mind and her flare up of jealousy showcased in the Shinra Building's prison cell, you now think that's somehow still present and you immediately fall to that interpretation to read instances of Tifa here that depict Cloud and Aerith. That's not implied here in this scene or the context of the chapter.



Again, there's no indication of jealousy in any of the lead up or context of this chapter. The scene makes perfect sense without a reading of Tifa somehow being jealous and possessive of Cloud. It's unnecessary injection into interpretation. We can look at what's there and the context of the chapter.



Everything is interpretable, by that metric. Can we read anything we wish from every scene and then simply inject our subjective bias and belief into what's there, regardless of the intent provided?

That's a subjective viewpoint, as well. How much jealousy isn't "a bad thing" depends on the context, person, and circumstance. There's definitely no reason to be jealous here. Why would she be? Aerith certainly hasn't done anything that makes her have to be jealous. The only time, there's the closest hint of jealousy is Tifa's honest question of who Aerith is and how Cloud knows her in the previous chapter. And even then, it's about the most innocuous interpretation of jealousy one can have. That certainly makes more sense as reading of Tifa being "jealous" then her being scared and clinging to Cloud's other arm.

Cinematic intent. I already said that it's not just words but direction involved as well. Visual cues, audio cues, framing, sequence of events etc.

You're only looking at it from the language of words like this is a book rather than from the language of video

Sure, I have my biases but we all do.-shrugs-

 

[looneymoon]

Look if they didn't want me to think it was potential jealousy then they shouldn't have panned to Tifa's face right after Aerith grabbed his arm. Why'd they do that? What were they trying to emphasize from going from one shot to the next?

You have to look at the cinematic intent of the scene and not just the words on a paper. Why did they have Tifa copy Aerith exactly and hold Cloud's other arm? Was it jealousy? Was it fear? Was it both?

This scene is definitely interpretable.

And being jealous isn't a bad thing. It's not like Tifa is mean to Aerith out of jealousy or something.

This. In both English and Japanese, the camera focuses on Aerith holding Cloud's arm, then cuts to Tifa's reaction, indicating that we are focusing on Aerith clutching Cloud from her point of view. Whether or not she makes a ":| hmmm" face vs a ":0 ahhh" face doesn't overwrite pretty basic film language imo.

Tifa being afraid of ghosts doesn't really offer great insight as to why she's zeroed in on Aerith specifically, on Cloud's arm. We know Tifa likes Cloud. She asks him in the previous chapter if there's something else going on with him and Aerith. So the idea that a pang of jealousy strikes - a pang that honesty probably lasts as long as the cut close up to her face - is easily deduced through context. If she was motivated by fear at that point, it would make more directorial sense for her to focus on both Cloud and Aerith putting on a brave face. In fact, we are actually shown that as the scene plays out, but just not in the small instance where Aerith happens to physically grab him.

Both fear and jealousy/general feelings of insecurity are motivating factors with Tifa in this scene.

Plus, its not like Tifa being insecure isn't anything new to her character, so I'm not sure why this discussion is so dragged out.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I honestly don't think that scene pushes Clerith anymore than Cloti. I'd even argue that it pushes the Tifa ship more because Tifa is showing obvious interest in Cloud moreso than usual. You don't get jealous over friends but love interests or people you're in a relationship with after all.

I don't think it's pushing a ship either, and that's why jealousy has no bearing or relevance here at all. This is about the fear demonstrated over the ghosts in the Train Graveyard. Not Tifa trying to protect her man, and trying to ensure Aerith doesn't hog the Cloud-sauce all for herself. It's an acontexual reading.

I haven't read of any interview of them saying that. If they said that though then that'd be different.

Here it is. They definitely said that, and that's especially why I think it's important to this scene as well.

You can be friends with someone that you're jealous of. It's referenced a little in Nojima's writings from both Aerith and Tifa. Of course that was the OG timeline though.

And he took that out in the Remake. That's an explicit intentional action.

Cinematic intent. I already said that it's not just words but direction involved as well. Visual cues, audio cues, framing, sequence of events etc.

Sure, I have my biases but we all do.-shrugs-

But that's not the cinematic intent given the entire context of the chapter. You're divorcing the scene from everything that came before and after it. There's no flare up or relationship issues being depicted here, especially in regards to the interactions between Aerith and Tifa. She's not jealous here. You're having to go outside of what the scene and characterization shows to reach the conclusion of jealousy. When the story on it's face is showing, no. This is not what the scene is about.

Tifa being afraid of ghosts doesn't really offer great insight as to why she's zeroed in on Aerith specifically, on Cloud's arm. We know Tifa likes Cloud. She asks him in the previous chapter if there's something else going on with him and Aerith. So the idea that a pang of jealousy strikes - a pang that honesty probably lasts as long as the cut close up to her face - is easily deduced through context. If she was motivated by fear at that point, it would make more directorial sense for her to focus on both Cloud and Aerith putting on a brave face. In fact, we are actually shown that as the scene plays out, but just not in the small instance where Aerith happens to physically grab him.

Because Aerith is far more forward and open with her emotions and wasn't trying to put up a brave facade like Tifa. I don't see why that notice of Aerith's behavior implies the romantic connotation and possessiveness. She already had a moment of jealousy that she was upfront with in the scene with Cloud in the sewers, if you talk to her first. Why would it be hammered in again? And Cloud's always putting on a brave face, that's not really anything new Tifa would notice. Aerith being the outlier in openly hiding behind Cloud would be far more noticeable to her, wouldn't it?

 

[Final_Heaven]

I don't think it's pushing a ship either, and that's why jealousy has no bearing or relevance here at all. This is about the fear demonstrated over the ghosts in the Train Graveyard. Not Tifa trying to protect her man, and trying to ensure Aerith doesn't hog the Cloud-sauce all for herself. It's an acontexual reading.



Here it is. They definitely said that, and that's especially why I think it's important to this scene as well.




And he took that out in the Remake. That's an explicit intentional action.




But that's not the cinematic intent given the context of the chapter. You're divorcing the scene from everything that came before and after it. There's no flare up or relationship issues being depicted here, especially in regards to the interactions between Aerith and Tifa. She's not jealous here. You're having to go outside of what the scene and characterization shows to reach the conclusion of jealousy. When the story on it's face is showing, no. This is not what the scene is about.

I'm not seeing where that interview says what you say it does.

Anyways, I'll quote Looney for this since they put out a great response:

This. In both English and Japanese, the camera focuses on Aerith holding Cloud's arm, then cuts to Tifa's reaction, indicating that we are focusing on Aerith clutching Cloud from her point of view. Whether or not she makes a ":| hmmm" face vs a ":0 ahhh" face overwrites pretty basic film language imo.

Tifa being afraid of ghosts doesn't really offer great insight as to why she's zeroed in on Aerith specifically, on Cloud's arm. We know Tifa likes Cloud. She asks him in the previous chapter if there's something else going on with him and Aerith. So the idea that a pang of jealousy strikes - a pang that honesty probably lasts as long as the cut close up to her face - is easily deduced through context. If she was motivated by fear at that point, it would make more directorial sense for her to focus on both Cloud and Aerith putting on a brave face. In fact, we are actually shown that as the scene plays out, but just not in the small instance where Aerith happens to physically grab him.

Both fear and jealousy/general feelings of insecurity are motivating factors with Tifa in this scene.

Plus, its not like Tifa being insecure isn't anything new to her character, so I'm not sure why this discussion is so dragged out.

 

[Graymouse]

It looks like we finally found something to argue debate about.

This. In both English and Japanese, the camera focuses on Aerith holding Cloud's arm, then cuts to Tifa's reaction, indicating that we are focusing on Aerith clutching Cloud from her point of view. Whether or not she makes a ":| hmmm" face vs a ":0 ahhh" face overwrites pretty basic film language imo.

Tifa being afraid of ghosts doesn't really offer great insight as to why she's zeroed in on Aerith specifically, on Cloud's arm. We know Tifa likes Cloud. She asks him in the previous chapter if there's something else going on with him and Aerith. So the idea that a pang of jealousy strikes - a pang that honesty probably lasts as long as the cut close up to her face - is easily deduced through context. If she was motivated by fear at that point, it would make more directorial sense for her to focus on both Cloud and Aerith putting on a brave face. In fact, we are actually shown that as the scene plays out, but just not in the small instance where Aerith happens to physically grab him.

Both fear and jealousy/general feelings of insecurity are motivating factors with Tifa in this scene.

Plus, its not like Tifa being insecure isn't anything new to her character, so I'm not sure why this discussion is so dragged out.

I am not sure how the way the scene was constructed cinematically adds any validity to your argument.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not seeing where that interview says what you say it does.

It's more a reference to this particular point.

When it came for Final Fantasy 7 Remake, the development team observed that many fans were on "team Tifa or team Aerith," says Co-Director Naoki Hamaguchi. Many fans even accused the development team of favoring one over the other. Indeed, if you look at the original game, Tifa is definitely an important character, but it always feels as if the story is pushing Cloud and Aerith together. You could even argue Aerith is the real hero of the story, where Tifa exists more to push Cloud's character arc along.

The social media discourse led to Hamaguchi and the rest of the Final Fantasy 7 Remake development team putting considerable thought into how much screentime they would give Aerith and Tifa. "[W]e have been very conscious about the player’s amount of time with Tifa and Aerith and keeping it equal. Additionally, we would make sure their representation in-game is balanced as well; for example, if there is a special event scene for Tifa, then we would prepare something similar for Aerith as well."

Factoring that type of intentional direction for the two characters, there's a clear balance intended in how they depict and write Tifa and Aerith, especially in relation to Cloud. Why would they paintstackingly go through that effort to give them equal time and relevance on that subject, yet relegate Tifa to having recurring pangs of jealousy over a simple gesture like, Aerith grabbing Cloud's arm? That's just openly inconsistent. At least, to me.

 

[Cat on Mars]

i guess some people think that pushes Clerith more if Tifa gets jealous.

Ok, thank you.

So Cloud getting jealous of every dude who notices Tifa means that he's interesd in Tifa? If we're going to be consistent, this should be considered as proof too.

And just for the record, you're getting the timing of that scene wrong. The camera pans across the scene and ends with Tifa's face because it's showing how she's reacting to Aerith's words of encouragement. And she's not very convinced but goes along with Aerith's idea anyway. If anything, it shows that Cloud and Tifa don't like the idea but just because Aerith is relentless when she has decided on something, they do things her way.
edit:typo

 

[MasterMoogle]

I don't even see it as dirty, there's literally just her looking scared and bothered by the fact she's being confronted with ghosts.

She doesn't want to be left alone to face whatever scary phantoms that are ahead. And Tifa's been built up repeatedly throughout the chapter, as scared of supernatural things like.. Ghosts.

This divorced, acontextual reading of the scene as simply a jealous flare up, while ignoring the entirety of the chapter that leads up to this and her desire to simply cease feigning courage and get behind Cloud too, is silly. Tifa notices Aerith's honesty in openly using Cloud as a bodyguard and wishes to do the same. That's not jealousy, given the context.

The problem with your argument is that it could easily be interpreted as jealousy, and it wouldn't contradict anything actually being shown in the scene.

 

[Graymouse]

The problem with your argument is that it could easily be interpreted as jealousy, and it wouldn't contradict anything actually being shown in the scene.

It does however in turn completely contradict the entire chapter's narrative and atmosphere. That is the reason why I feel it is so out of place for Tifa to be jealous in this particular scene.

 

[looneymoon]

Because Aerith is far more forward and open with her emotions and wasn't trying to put up a brave facade like Tifa. I don't see why that notice of Aerith's behavior implies the romantic connotation and possessiveness. She already had a moment of jealousy that she was upfront with in the scene with Cloud in the sewers, if you talk to her first. Why would it be hammered in again? And Cloud's always putting on a brave face, that's not really anything new Tifa would notice. Aerith being the outlier in openly hiding behind Cloud would be far more noticeable to her, wouldn't it?

I don't see how thats going against what I said? Jealousy doesn't automatically equal possessiveness, though it can have that connotation. Jealousy is also a form of insecurity, which is what Tifa is feeling in this scene, and through the chapter.

Why hammer is again? I don't see why not. This is just a character moment for Tifa.

How does this have romantic connotations? Because Aerith... grabs his arm in a way thats quite forward, while Tifa is already in a head space of self doubt? Aerith being an outlier to Cloud always putting on a brave face doesn't really provide a satisfying answer as to why Tifa is zeroing in on her physically holding him. It also doesn't answer why there's an immediate cut, giving the audience a view of her reaction.

This is trying to convey a feeling, and I don't understand how that is inconsistent to anything else shown at all.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't see how thats going against what I said? Jealousy doesn't automatically equal possessiveness, though it can have that connotation. Jealousy is also a form of insecurity, which is what Tifa is feeling in this scene, and through the chapter.

That's an interesting point and perspective there. You are right about that, jealousy doesn't always have to mean possessiveness. It can be a reflection of insecurity. I hadn't thought of it like that, honestly.

I still never read that scene that way, but I at least get what you're saying there.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I'll repeat my question then:

So Cloud getting jealous of every dude who notices Tifa means that he's interesd in Tifa?

I want to hear what you guys think this* says about Cloud.

*jealousy

 

[Theozilla]

I think the Chapter 11 scene is meant to reflect on Tifa being insecure/anxious, but more in a “hey don’t leave me out, I hate ghosts too!” sort of way.