SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Stars are a CA motif (Cloud and Aerith’s star, Cosmo Canyon Absence of a Sign quest) and CT motif as flower are now a CT and CA motif, (flower to Tifa, flower on letter box) well I don't see the point in fighting over and not sharing them.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I'm fairly sure Cloud's mocap is also Zack's mocap unless I'm misunderstanding so of course he's not going to get between that, and I've Clotis citing him as being pro Tifa/Cloti.
I do not think he is Zack's mocap because Zack and Cloud have different heights so it'd be troublesome when animating the films; you might be confused because he was Clive's mocap. I'm pretty sure that if he was Zack's mocap, he'd state it also in his bio in Twitter as it would be a big role too.

Also yes, he is CT biased, but you have to remember that they get directions from the devs, they get storyboards as well as scripts (Yamazaki often cites Cloud's lines in the script while playing even before his VA talks so he's obviously seen it). His comments (and probably liking) don't come off from nowhere: he's one of the few, comparatively, who are "in the know", which is why his comments are interesting. And it's not like he doesn't like Aerith either, hell in Remake I remember him hesitating for the sewer scene between her and Tifa but he said "if it's Cloud, then he'll chose Tifa" before going for Tifa. But he commented that this choice was purely for fans to decide, like he doesn't think the resolutions are all canon. It's just a nice bonus.

Then you have Cody going "not everything is romantic", knowing damn well how chapter 14 went alongside the GS date.

Speaking of the GS date, I think Cloud chosing to not sit next to Aerith is a recurring motif: she is his friend, so he'll always worry and protect her because Aerith is perceived as the most frail in the team (she's chased after by Shinra, she can't climb a mountain, she gets tired from manipulating the Lifestream are good examples of how the game pushes that idea onto the player), but Cloud is "the hero", and her bodyguard. He's not the only one who protects or worries about her, we see Tifa and Red doing that too. But when it comes to Aerith, we have to remember that their park date had them sitting close and her getting in his comfort zone, which he doesn't like at all. And I think her and her dates is exactly the reason why he's on his guard with her, it's only when he notices how lonely she is that he lowers it.

Compare it to the Tifa GS date where you do see him getting closer to Tifa because even though she sat closer at one point, she still wasn't close enough lol. And in Tifa's date you do see him looking at her when she goes "it's beautiful" about the fireworks and getting caught, just like when they were kids; when Aerith talks about the fireworks, he doesn't do the same. There are little difference that show romantic interest vs friendship and care. To me in the Aerith GS date, even though she's interested in him (and that's what makes it romantic), at some point he takes Zack's role because he thinks she wants Zack and a little romance from him. Just like in the play with her, he's somehow playing Zack's role with her (with Loveless being ZA coded). With Tifa, he's been waiting for this since chapter 8 (if you get her there), he also comments that they did indeed missed the gondola ride IIRC, or something like that.

Last, what are you expecting from p3 is what I'm wondering right now. Because I do not think there are going to be lots of CA interactions. We're going to have him talk about her that's for sure, but what if there's no romance from him? What if he confesses to Tifa instead (which I think he does anyway since the LS scene is a big confession scene, only with no "I love you" in the OG at least).

I know CA have overlooked this for several years now but the discrepancy in interpreting the CA scenes is, IMHO, very well explained by Aerith's line "even if you think you have (fallen in love with me), it's just an illusion". We know it's a self warning, but it is also for the players: CA was always meant to be an illusion, something that exists only on Aerith's side but not on Cloud's side. So even if people think he's fallen for Aerith, in the end it is not true as the only girl he's been in love with is Tifa - and this notion is dispelled in the Lifestream scene. As a result, Aerith remains a precious person to Cloud, as much as Zack, but his feelings are not romantic: you can interpret them that way in Rebirth, but it will be dispelled in p3. And since it's an illusion, some will fall for it and others won't (which is why Aerith says "IF..."). To me it's pretty clear that Rebirth tried to live to this, at the very least for Aerith, but in the same time they showed Cloud and Tifa's love for each other and how they are able to help each other. Everything that goes down between Cloud and Tifa is very romance books coded, which is why people have noticed it.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Regarding the example: Cloud isn't a sprite, and he does express more emotion than the character in the video. To act like the GS date scene where Cloud sits across from her was supposed to be of the romantic trope you stated, you would have to ignore Aerith's obviously offended reaction, as if she did the wrong thing. You also have to ignore that Cloud obviously saw the invitation to sit right next to her, and ignored it before letting out a sigh. I also doubt that just prior to the scene you sent, the character had a eureka moment where he remembered his dead best friend was the girl's boyfriend, and that he was crazy in love with her, complicating the guys feelings for said girl.

I'm also going to add that the side quest in Costa Del Sol for Clerith was grim, to say the least. Cloud does , in fact, treat Aerith a bit harshly sometimes.

Yeah, if I was mocap for two characters I liked, and both had a girl they liked, but one also had another possible romantic interest, and it was the girl one of my main characters love, maybe feeling Aerith is Zack's "girl", I'd probably not want to rock the boat.
But that's also missing the point I made. Cloud's actors have to, at the very least, understand the character. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to play the role well in the first place.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Cloud's actors end up leaning into Cloti, they are hired to be Cloud, if they didn't accurately depict him or understand his character, they wouldn't have been cast as him, simple as that.

I'm also going to have to stop you at 'possible love interest'. Like I said, going off the OG atleast, whatever romantic feelings Cloud had for Aerith died with his fake persona in the Northern Crater.

Tifa is the person he's yearned and pined for his whole life, he's not going to change on a dime for Aerith. 'Possible' implies there's a chance it would have happened, when that simply isn't the case.

With how the material and characters are set up (especially Advent Children) I think it is highly disrespectful to Tifa for Cloud to have romantic feelings for Aerith outside of his SOLDIER persona. It is a complete insult to Tifa to have Cloud shape his life around her, only for Aerith to swoop in while he's somewhat acting out the part of her ex, and actually have Cloud consider her a possible romantic interest.

Imagine a situation where Cloud has to come clean about his feelings if this were the case: "Yeah, even though I was yearning for you my whole life, and shaped my aspirations on how to be worthy of you Tifa, a short time with Aerith while I was living a lie really makes me waver a bit." I don't think there's an easier way to make someone feel like shit about themselves than something like this happening. Really makes someone feel inferior to the other person.

Tifa's role in the narrative is to have a close, romantic, intimate, supportive relationship with Cloud. Aerith's role is to set the themes of the game, to be the Ancient who commands the lifestream and holy to save the planet from Meteor.

Maybe Clerith would have happened had Tifa been the person on that altar, but that's the point, that's a massive rewrite that has characters stealing each others roles, taking away from each woman's overall character.

Tifa cannot play Aerith's role in the story. It is simply not viable to have Aerith steal things from Tifa's role, just to give Aerith even more importance. The same way that it's unviable for Tifa to be the one to summon Holy: because you insult the characters involved. It is simply an insult to have Tifa's role conflated and shared with Aerith, but not the other way around. That's not very 'equal' to our heroines, is it?

I apologise for sounding bitter here, but Clerith really ruffles my feathers. It's not exclusive to Clerith, though, any pairing that involves Cloud or Tifa that isn't Cloti rubs me the wrong way, I can't help it.

Stars are a CA motif
No.
flower are now a CT
Also no.

There is slight overlap in the re;trilogy, but generally speaking, nobody should be thinking of stars when talking about Cloud and Aerith, and nobody should be thinking about flowers when talking about Cloud and Tifa.

Brit Baron iirc also said people should be open minded about fanservice leading both sides to wonder which got just fanservice, but either way it was official content.
I apologise if this sounds rude, but judging by the fact that Cloud's character is set up to revolve around Tifa and vice versa, I think we both know who's getting the 'fanservice' here, if any side.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
You know it doesn't matter if it's a doom romance, it's still a romance, and some people are always going to prefer the angst/ what if/potential of that. You can't ruin that for them no matter how hard you try. They "wrote it to be a doomed romance/not endgame/whatever" ok it was still a thing.

Abzy, I do find it rude, sorry, as I do find some Clotis enjoying CT and the flowers, and I don't bother them about it, they ship and enjoy CT with reunion flower, I won't take from their joy. Similarly if people want to enjoy Aerith and wishing star etc so what.

I don't think it matters what I expect from part 3, people are back at work, working on the game, everything written has already been written, I was wondering if it's found that the White Materia is full of Aerith’s memories, her time with Zack, Cloud, and everyone.

I was confused about the mocap thing because there was a video where headshots of characters were there while he was streaming and someone said both Zack and Cloud were amongst the characters, maybe just characters he liked?
 
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nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
The story doesn’t give me enough to believe that Cloud is romantically interested in Aerith. After Remake I believed it was player choice and he could be interested in either but that went out the window with Rebirth.

There are constantly things shown in the game detailing how different Cloud is with Tifa. The game has multiple times where Cloud can show a sway in his feelings but he doesn’t. In the GS date the confession goes nowhere for Cloud and the same with the dream date, the confession goes nowhere. I’m not saying he doesn’t care about Aerith, because he cares about her a lot. However, the game is not leading me to believe that Cloud’s feelings for Tifa are flimsy or conflicted.

Rebirth intertwines Cloud and Tifa so much, between him only sharing his thoughts about his issues with her, Tifa constantly reassuring him it will be fine, Sephiroth coming between them, the LS sequence, etc. Rebirth really wanted me to understand that these two care deeply about each other. I believe that’s because they have to in order to build up their relationship for part 3.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Personally, I think you're hurting yourself for nothing, because that's not what the game is about at all, and you'll be disappointed in the end. Maybe I'm wrong but you don't leave me with the impression of someone who's just enjoying the moment. So really great if I'm wrong and you don't mind "losing".

Because there's no world in which Cloud and Aerith are anything concrete. Not in this story. His past with Tifa is too central.

And again, I'm not saying this to make fun of you or look down on you.
 

blink-07

Pro Adventurer
AKA
blink-07
When talking about the OG, sure, Cloud and Aerith were a thing. Not past the Northern Crater, though.

Plus, Aerith's ex being Cloud's late best friend is bound to create complications in how he feels towards her, and him remembering specifically
that his dead best friend was head over heels for this girl is relevant, especially with how he acts with her on her Gold Saucer date.

He coldly declines her offer to sit next to her, and in contrast with Tifa's date where he takes every chance he can to gawk at Tifa, Cloud takes every opportunity to not look at Aerith.


Here's the thing though, since these guys (including the VAs) are actors, they are probably given direction on how to act, what emotions to try and depict etc.

First and foremost, to act a character effectively, you need to understand the character. Understanding Cloud is the first step to accurately depicting him on screen. These people aren't like us, they are involved with devs in how they should 'act' the character.

Cloud's actors aren't 'Cloti biased', they just understand the character.
I laughed during Tifa's date- like you can tell theyre in experienced and never been on a actual date before. I laughed when she catches Cloud staring at her, because during Chapter 12 she mentions it to him about when they were younger he would stare and ignore her when she looked and tried to interact with him.

I am in the boat that he holds romantic feelings for both, however on different degrees, one significantly less than the other though. The one with Tifa has much more depth and much more developed- I was surprised how much development they had during remake and rebirth whereas Aerith was kinda held back and it really felt like they were leaving crumbs.

Aeriths date was, I felt conflicted but it was bittersweet- and I felt this in the OG too, I always got her date but I always felt bad about it. The LA and HA difference is kinda interesting. The LA he looks away after Aerith puts her head on his shoulder. In the HA there is conversation between the two thats 'drowned out by the fireworks'- its when he interlaces fingers, both their lips are moving, Im thinking its words of comfort to her to enjoy the moment and that he'll be there for her. In Tifa's date I felt so awkward but it was cute, innocent and angsty, it seems both LA and HA Cloud was consistent- and I thought she was puckering her lips but it also looks like she says something very short to Cloud before she puckers her lips to let Cloud kiss her which also is 'drowned out by the fireworks.'

He is much more reciprocative to Tifa though. Also, did anyone notice but Tifa during majority of the time is the only one throughout the entire game that reaches/grounds Cloud...no one else does that. I was always curious about that game narrative- they didnt have Aerith step in. Like they were really drilling it in with how much Tifa cares about Cloud and how Tifa's presences snaps him out of everything and how important she is to him (like in the OG but here its like theyre making it blatant but ppl ignore it anyway lol).


The chapter 14 date was sweet and weird. If they didnt keep cutting to Zack I wouldve appreciated it more-but the fact they chose to weave that narrative within the last date with cloud and aerith is a very interesting choice. Also interesting that Aerith is always saving Zack in Chapter 14 and he always ends up at 'their place' which is the church. HMMMMmm

edit: also, Zack is my favourite, I prefer him over Cloud. Cloud's journey is compelling but personality wise, Zack is the best puppy.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
The problem is the insistence that it continues past his fake persona, like I said: huge insult to Tifa. I have no problem with people shipping Cloud and Aerith as a 'what if', I just want people to stop pretending like it would have actually happened. It was never my intention to say: "You people aren't allowed to ship Clerith at all!"

Abzy, I do find it rude, sorry, as I do find some Clotis enjoying CT and the flowers, and I don't bother them about it, they ship and enjoy CT with reunion flower, I won't take from their joy. Similarly if people want to enjoy Aerith and wishing star etc so what.
I apologise again, so.

Like I said, yes, there is slight overlap and they do 'share' motifs to an extent, but they don't really. Generally speaking:

Cloti-stars
Clerith-flowers
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
Here is an example-


(from 13.00 minutes)

Like it's not the only time I've seen such a thing in games. If people are supposed to be disheartened, sad, or upset in some way at Cloud here, they mostly aren't imho,
that Cloud's cold and uncaring, nah I don't think so.

Yeah, if I was mocap for two characters I liked, and both had a girl they liked, but one also had another possible romantic interest, and it was the girl one of my main characters love, maybe feeling Aerith is Zack's "girl", I'd probably not want to rock the boat.

Brit Baron iirc also said people should be open minded about fanservice leading both sides to wonder which got just fanservice, but either way it was official content.
I think you may have shot yourself in the foot with this example. Admittedly, I’ve never played Grandia so I have no grasp of the context of this scene/how it’s built up to or plays into the following narrative.

I do know, however that what you’re trying to equivocate here doesn’t quite match the scene in Cloud and Aerith’s date. First off, Aerith literally motions for him to sit next to her, a clear invitation on where to sit. Cloud chooses to sit across from her regardless. That doesn’t mean nothing, and Cloud isn’t a 14-year old anime protag who’s absurdly awkward around women.

Refer to how Cloud deals with any other person, especially those who are attractive. He may be awkward, but he’s not shy. He is, however, very particular about his personal space ( and I have a suspicion as to why that may be ).

The context of the scene in the story actively fights a purely romantic read of it. So yes, the atmosphere is romantic, the handholding is sweet and caring, but there’s a reason it doesn’t go any further than Cloud tenderly holding the hand of a friend who is feeling down. If Cloud wanted to take it further, then he would.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
And I'd like to point out that REmake's goal is to tell their "utlimate" version of FF7.

It's not supposed to be just a bonus. It's supposed to stand on its own. We don't have to go back to OG as the bible to which we must conform.

So yes, in OG, CA was a possibility in the game's lore itself, because it was something pushed by the game-design itself. They wanted the player to play along so that her death would be even more terrible.

Not so in REmake. Tifa is introduced much earlier. So that we can understand her relationship with Cloud (Nomura's own words).

They now have two well-established couples, ZA and CT, and the rest is just a "bonus" for the player.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
I am in the boat that he holds romantic feelings for both, however on different degrees, one significantly less than the other though. The one with Tifa has much more depth and much more developed- I was surprised how much development they had during remake and rebirth whereas Aerith was kinda held back and it really felt like they were leaving crumbs.
I'm in the boat that in the OG, there's wiggle room to argue that he had romantic feelings for both pre-Northern Crater.

Rebirth, however, yeah it's only really Tifa he's interested in.

Take the dream date 'like vs like' for example:

If it was a confession, he deflected. That's not a good sign if he was supposed to 'like' her. Cloud can pick up on stuff like this if he so wishes, refer to Tifa's GS date.

If it wasn't a confession/was a friendzone, he doesn't seem that down over it. So that's also not a good sign if he's supposed to 'like' her.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
And I'll say it again. I'm not forbidding anything. You can ship who you like. All day, every day. I just find it sad to see people making themselves sick based on distorted facts (I'm not talking about people here specifically, just in general)

That's why I always ask the same question: "But how do you think the story will end? Your version of events challenges far too many things. You'll just get sick of it."
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Not sure about the Japanese, but Cloud himself says that he 'didn't do anything' on their GS date. A stark contrast to his reaction after doing romantic things with Tifa: momentarily making eye contact before looking away immediately. I think it's obvious to Cloud which one felt significant.

And again, him remembering Zack is going to complicate whatever he feels for her.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Do you seriously think they actively worked on the CA intimate, one of the dates they've said is one of the romantic ones, in order to make people disappointed in it, do you think they wanted people to be disappointed with something they worked hard to get. No, they created all the dates with love. So again people can try to spin it as negatively as they want, I'm not going to enjoy things any less.

The CA date also follows the CA play where Cloud holds the flower petal to his heart.
 
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abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Do you seriously think they actively worked on the CA intimate, one of the dates they've said is one of the romantic ones, in order to make people disappointed in it, do you think they wanted people to be disappointed with something they worked hard to get. No, they created all the dates with love.
I mean, with the context it feels tragic. It feels sad. It certainly doesn't feel romantic when Cloud and Aerith pull away from each other awkwardly when Aerith falls on him. Especially not with the way Aerith positions her hands in front of her.

You saying this does give me slightly new perspective on it, though.
I'm not going to enjoy things any less.
We aren't telling you to. You're free to ship Clerith, just like everyone else.

But no, 'real' Cloud is only in love with Tifa. Any other interpretation of this story is an insult to Tifa.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
"I mean, with the context it feels tragic. It feels sad. It certainly doesn't feel romantic when Cloud and Aerith pull away from each other awkwardly when Aerith falls on him. Especially not with the way Aerith positions her hands in front of her.

You saying this does give me slightly new perspective on it, though.
I'm not going to enjoy things any less.
We aren't telling you to. You're free to ship Clerith, just like everyone else.

But no, 'real' Cloud is only in love with Tifa. Any other interpretation of this story is an insult to Tifa."

**

Thank you.

I would argue bittersweet maybe. Why does the falling/almost kiss happen?, because Cloud pilots the ride to "protect/save" Aerith from the spaceship, then suddenly things become all too real, and awkward persay, doesn't necessarily mean bad.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
My bad then, sounded like it.

I'm quoting the person when I talk to them precisely.

My whole "you're doing things the wrong way" ted talk was directed mostly to the CA side in general (and lurking people reading this thread)

I know Maiden and LunarTarot are people who just enjoy their favorite ship fairly and without malice
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
Do you seriously think they actively worked on the CA intimate, one of the dates they've said is one of the romantic ones, in order to make people disappointed in it, do you think they wanted people to be disappointed with something they worked hard to get. No, they created all the dates with love. So again people can try to spin it as negatively as they want, I'm not going to enjoy things any less.

The CA date also follows the CA play where Cloud holds the flower petal to his heart.
I give Loveless wide room because I’m not even going to attempt to decipher an in-universe myth clearly constructed to misdirect anyone trying to use it as a guidebook. So not touching that lol

All the dates are lovingly crafted, that’s why going in and picking apart the body language, facial expressions, and the visual whole is so fascinating. It’s also why considering them in context of the overall story is important. Nothing was done “just because” which could’ve been the route they took.

Again, why didn’t Cloud kiss her? Between Aerith and Tifa, Aerith is more likely to kiss Cloud… but it doesn’t happen. They stumble into a kissing position, but they don’t take advantage of it. Everything is deliberate because it clearly has time and effort put into them.

So, if these dates are important, and we’ve established that these scenes between characters are lovingly crafted… then why isn’t Cloud’s jealousy in Gongaga more overt like every other time he’s been jealous through both these games?

Because it’s not jealousy, it’s concern and considering who we’re talking about, Cloud “I’m not your bro” Strife, that should speak volumes about how much Aerith means to him even if it isn’t exactly romantic.
 
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