SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Personally, I think you're hurting yourself for nothing, because that's not what the game is about at all, and you'll be disappointed in the end. Maybe I'm wrong but you don't leave me with the impression of someone who's just enjoying the moment. So really great if I'm wrong and you don't mind "losing".

Because there's no world in which Cloud and Aerith are anything concrete. Not in this story. His past with Tifa is too central.

And again, I'm not saying this to make fun of you or look down on you.
 

blink-07

Pro Adventurer
AKA
blink-07
When talking about the OG, sure, Cloud and Aerith were a thing. Not past the Northern Crater, though.

Plus, Aerith's ex being Cloud's late best friend is bound to create complications in how he feels towards her, and him remembering specifically
that his dead best friend was head over heels for this girl is relevant, especially with how he acts with her on her Gold Saucer date.

He coldly declines her offer to sit next to her, and in contrast with Tifa's date where he takes every chance he can to gawk at Tifa, Cloud takes every opportunity to not look at Aerith.


Here's the thing though, since these guys (including the VAs) are actors, they are probably given direction on how to act, what emotions to try and depict etc.

First and foremost, to act a character effectively, you need to understand the character. Understanding Cloud is the first step to accurately depicting him on screen. These people aren't like us, they are involved with devs in how they should 'act' the character.

Cloud's actors aren't 'Cloti biased', they just understand the character.
I laughed during Tifa's date- like you can tell theyre in experienced and never been on a actual date before. I laughed when she catches Cloud staring at her, because during Chapter 12 she mentions it to him about when they were younger he would stare and ignore her when she looked and tried to interact with him.

I am in the boat that he holds romantic feelings for both, however on different degrees, one significantly less than the other though. The one with Tifa has much more depth and much more developed- I was surprised how much development they had during remake and rebirth whereas Aerith was kinda held back and it really felt like they were leaving crumbs.

Aeriths date was, I felt conflicted but it was bittersweet- and I felt this in the OG too, I always got her date but I always felt bad about it. The LA and HA difference is kinda interesting. The LA he looks away after Aerith puts her head on his shoulder. In the HA there is conversation between the two thats 'drowned out by the fireworks'- its when he interlaces fingers, both their lips are moving, Im thinking its words of comfort to her to enjoy the moment and that he'll be there for her. In Tifa's date I felt so awkward but it was cute, innocent and angsty, it seems both LA and HA Cloud was consistent- and I thought she was puckering her lips but it also looks like she says something very short to Cloud before she puckers her lips to let Cloud kiss her which also is 'drowned out by the fireworks.'

He is much more reciprocative to Tifa though. Also, did anyone notice but Tifa during majority of the time is the only one throughout the entire game that reaches/grounds Cloud...no one else does that. I was always curious about that game narrative- they didnt have Aerith step in. Like they were really drilling it in with how much Tifa cares about Cloud and how Tifa's presences snaps him out of everything and how important she is to him (like in the OG but here its like theyre making it blatant but ppl ignore it anyway lol).


The chapter 14 date was sweet and weird. If they didnt keep cutting to Zack I wouldve appreciated it more-but the fact they chose to weave that narrative within the last date with cloud and aerith is a very interesting choice. Also interesting that Aerith is always saving Zack in Chapter 14 and he always ends up at 'their place' which is the church. HMMMMmm

edit: also, Zack is my favourite, I prefer him over Cloud. Cloud's journey is compelling but personality wise, Zack is the best puppy.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
The problem is the insistence that it continues past his fake persona, like I said: huge insult to Tifa. I have no problem with people shipping Cloud and Aerith as a 'what if', I just want people to stop pretending like it would have actually happened. It was never my intention to say: "You people aren't allowed to ship Clerith at all!"

Abzy, I do find it rude, sorry, as I do find some Clotis enjoying CT and the flowers, and I don't bother them about it, they ship and enjoy CT with reunion flower, I won't take from their joy. Similarly if people want to enjoy Aerith and wishing star etc so what.
I apologise again, so.

Like I said, yes, there is slight overlap and they do 'share' motifs to an extent, but they don't really. Generally speaking:

Cloti-stars
Clerith-flowers
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
Here is an example-


(from 13.00 minutes)

Like it's not the only time I've seen such a thing in games. If people are supposed to be disheartened, sad, or upset in some way at Cloud here, they mostly aren't imho,
that Cloud's cold and uncaring, nah I don't think so.

Yeah, if I was mocap for two characters I liked, and both had a girl they liked, but one also had another possible romantic interest, and it was the girl one of my main characters love, maybe feeling Aerith is Zack's "girl", I'd probably not want to rock the boat.

Brit Baron iirc also said people should be open minded about fanservice leading both sides to wonder which got just fanservice, but either way it was official content.
I think you may have shot yourself in the foot with this example. Admittedly, I’ve never played Grandia so I have no grasp of the context of this scene/how it’s built up to or plays into the following narrative.

I do know, however that what you’re trying to equivocate here doesn’t quite match the scene in Cloud and Aerith’s date. First off, Aerith literally motions for him to sit next to her, a clear invitation on where to sit. Cloud chooses to sit across from her regardless. That doesn’t mean nothing, and Cloud isn’t a 14-year old anime protag who’s absurdly awkward around women.

Refer to how Cloud deals with any other person, especially those who are attractive. He may be awkward, but he’s not shy. He is, however, very particular about his personal space ( and I have a suspicion as to why that may be ).

The context of the scene in the story actively fights a purely romantic read of it. So yes, the atmosphere is romantic, the handholding is sweet and caring, but there’s a reason it doesn’t go any further than Cloud tenderly holding the hand of a friend who is feeling down. If Cloud wanted to take it further, then he would.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
And I'd like to point out that REmake's goal is to tell their "utlimate" version of FF7.

It's not supposed to be just a bonus. It's supposed to stand on its own. We don't have to go back to OG as the bible to which we must conform.

So yes, in OG, CA was a possibility in the game's lore itself, because it was something pushed by the game-design itself. They wanted the player to play along so that her death would be even more terrible.

Not so in REmake. Tifa is introduced much earlier. So that we can understand her relationship with Cloud (Nomura's own words).

They now have two well-established couples, ZA and CT, and the rest is just a "bonus" for the player.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
I am in the boat that he holds romantic feelings for both, however on different degrees, one significantly less than the other though. The one with Tifa has much more depth and much more developed- I was surprised how much development they had during remake and rebirth whereas Aerith was kinda held back and it really felt like they were leaving crumbs.
I'm in the boat that in the OG, there's wiggle room to argue that he had romantic feelings for both pre-Northern Crater.

Rebirth, however, yeah it's only really Tifa he's interested in.

Take the dream date 'like vs like' for example:

If it was a confession, he deflected. That's not a good sign if he was supposed to 'like' her. Cloud can pick up on stuff like this if he so wishes, refer to Tifa's GS date.

If it wasn't a confession/was a friendzone, he doesn't seem that down over it. So that's also not a good sign if he's supposed to 'like' her.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
And I'll say it again. I'm not forbidding anything. You can ship who you like. All day, every day. I just find it sad to see people making themselves sick based on distorted facts (I'm not talking about people here specifically, just in general)

That's why I always ask the same question: "But how do you think the story will end? Your version of events challenges far too many things. You'll just get sick of it."
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Not sure about the Japanese, but Cloud himself says that he 'didn't do anything' on their GS date. A stark contrast to his reaction after doing romantic things with Tifa: momentarily making eye contact before looking away immediately. I think it's obvious to Cloud which one felt significant.

And again, him remembering Zack is going to complicate whatever he feels for her.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Do you seriously think they actively worked on the CA intimate, one of the dates they've said is one of the romantic ones, in order to make people disappointed in it, do you think they wanted people to be disappointed with something they worked hard to get. No, they created all the dates with love. So again people can try to spin it as negatively as they want, I'm not going to enjoy things any less.

The CA date also follows the CA play where Cloud holds the flower petal to his heart.
 
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abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Do you seriously think they actively worked on the CA intimate, one of the dates they've said is one of the romantic ones, in order to make people disappointed in it, do you think they wanted people to be disappointed with something they worked hard to get. No, they created all the dates with love.
I mean, with the context it feels tragic. It feels sad. It certainly doesn't feel romantic when Cloud and Aerith pull away from each other awkwardly when Aerith falls on him. Especially not with the way Aerith positions her hands in front of her.

You saying this does give me slightly new perspective on it, though.
I'm not going to enjoy things any less.
We aren't telling you to. You're free to ship Clerith, just like everyone else.

But no, 'real' Cloud is only in love with Tifa. Any other interpretation of this story is an insult to Tifa.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
"I mean, with the context it feels tragic. It feels sad. It certainly doesn't feel romantic when Cloud and Aerith pull away from each other awkwardly when Aerith falls on him. Especially not with the way Aerith positions her hands in front of her.

You saying this does give me slightly new perspective on it, though.
I'm not going to enjoy things any less.
We aren't telling you to. You're free to ship Clerith, just like everyone else.

But no, 'real' Cloud is only in love with Tifa. Any other interpretation of this story is an insult to Tifa."

**

Thank you.

I would argue bittersweet maybe. Why does the falling/almost kiss happen?, because Cloud pilots the ride to "protect/save" Aerith from the spaceship, then suddenly things become all too real, and awkward persay, doesn't necessarily mean bad.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
My bad then, sounded like it.

I'm quoting the person when I talk to them precisely.

My whole "you're doing things the wrong way" ted talk was directed mostly to the CA side in general (and lurking people reading this thread)

I know Maiden and LunarTarot are people who just enjoy their favorite ship fairly and without malice
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
Do you seriously think they actively worked on the CA intimate, one of the dates they've said is one of the romantic ones, in order to make people disappointed in it, do you think they wanted people to be disappointed with something they worked hard to get. No, they created all the dates with love. So again people can try to spin it as negatively as they want, I'm not going to enjoy things any less.

The CA date also follows the CA play where Cloud holds the flower petal to his heart.
I give Loveless wide room because I’m not even going to attempt to decipher an in-universe myth clearly constructed to misdirect anyone trying to use it as a guidebook. So not touching that lol

All the dates are lovingly crafted, that’s why going in and picking apart the body language, facial expressions, and the visual whole is so fascinating. It’s also why considering them in context of the overall story is important. Nothing was done “just because” which could’ve been the route they took.

Again, why didn’t Cloud kiss her? Between Aerith and Tifa, Aerith is more likely to kiss Cloud… but it doesn’t happen. They stumble into a kissing position, but they don’t take advantage of it. Everything is deliberate because it clearly has time and effort put into them.

So, if these dates are important, and we’ve established that these scenes between characters are lovingly crafted… then why isn’t Cloud’s jealousy in Gongaga more overt like every other time he’s been jealous through both these games?

Because it’s not jealousy, it’s concern and considering who we’re talking about, Cloud “I’m not your bro” Strife, that should speak volumes about how much Aerith means to him even if it isn’t exactly romantic.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
It's just that I feel like a lot of Clerith moments, including the date, have the looming presence of Zack behind it. That's why I can't read their moments as definitively romantic.

Why does the falling/almost kiss happen?, because Cloud pilots the ride to "protect/save" Aerith from the spaceship, then suddenly things become all too real, and awkward persay, doesn't necessarily mean bad.
I'm looking at this from a dev pov. They could have had Aerith and Cloud react in another way to the fall. They could have given Aerith a kiss. They could have not had Cloud dismiss her offer to sit next to her. At this point it's just character assassination if Cloud actually considers Aerith as a romantic partner post Northern Crater.

So, if these dates are important, and we’ve established that these scenes between characters are lovingly crafted… then why isn’t Cloud’s jealousy in Gongaga more overt like every other time he’s been jealous through both these games?
This goes back to the original point. If a guy who is expected to understand Cloud enough to be him says that Cloud is pure and worried, and no mention of jealousy, then it's probably the truth.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
I've seen the CT date hyper analysised and brutally torn into and shredded from every angle, from antis, it doesn't just bother me with CA but CT too, sure there will be those that try and downplay positives while building up negatives, but I won't go there.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
By the way I kind of wanted a "Tales of Xillia" situation where one story path is Zack's, another is Cloud's, they meet up for endgame, post game you can use all characters, but I doubt it, just thought it would be neat.
 

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
Do you seriously think they actively worked on the CA intimate, one of the dates they've said is one of the romantic ones, in order to make people disappointed in it, do you think they wanted people to be disappointed with something they worked hard to get. No, they created all the dates with love. So again people can try to spin it as negatively as they want, I'm not going to enjoy things any less.

The CA date also follows the CA play where Cloud holds the flower petal to his heart.
This makes me wonder how someone can spin it negatively? It’s a great scene. Unless my opinion that it’s not romantic can be seen as spinning it negatively? I don’t know, genuinely wondering.

Like I said, I think it’s still a great scene between Cloud and Aerith. She goes on about Zack, and how she wants to meet the real Cloud. It places in Cloud's mind how he just recently remembered Zack died and how he thinks she doesn’t know. Then he gives her what he can and comforts her.

It’s hard for me to separate Cloud’s frame of mind. He has to pretend he doesn’t know Zack’s fate when Aerith just told him she still has feelings for him.

It doesn’t have to be romantic for it to be a good scene.

It’s the same for Yuffie. She kisses Cloud and holds her chest when she stares at him. However it doesn’t make me believe Yuffie is in love with Cloud because I have the context of the game. This is how I feel about Aerith’s, with the context of the game I don’t see it as romantic. With Tifa’s and the context of the game, I see it as romantic.

I am not trying to debate your opinion, it’s just that it inspired me to share my own. I respect everyone’s different interpretations and opinions.
 

AncientGrimoire

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Grim
For the last twenty years now, I’ve gathered there is a great wish, fervent desire even, to openly talk about Cloud and Tifa in the same breath as Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Garnet, Tidus and Yuna etc.

From those who also love the Zack and Aerith romance, there is a hope that maybe they can be more broadly discussed within the same respectful manner as other Final Fantasy romances, without it derailing into how Aerith actually loved Cloud more, how Zack didn’t matter, how Tifa is an unimportant character etc.

As plainly and as heavily telegraphed as things have been in the retrilogy and more recent compilation entries, sadly, fandom and online discourse in both the wider Final Fantasy and FFVII fandom in particular has yet to accept or more fully come to grips with not only the story that is being told, but the story that’s been told from the beginning.

Because arguably, Cloud and Tifa now themselves have MORE romantic content, imagery, and symbolism, than all the other previously mentioned romances aside, especially in light of the retrilogy, and what Remake and Rebirth chose to both depict and expand upon as it concerns Cloud and Tifa’s connection, and burgeoning romance.

Aside from the Cecil and Rosa romantic arc (and arguably the more recent Vaan and Penelo, and Clive and Jill romances, loosely mind you) Cloud and Tifa are unique in the sense that they are the most thoroughly depicted childhood acquaintances/friends (YMMV) to lovers in the entirety of Final Fantasy.

And I’m sorry, sincerely, but for the very fact that for the first time in the entire existence and history of Cloud Strife, arguably Final Fantasy’s most iconic and recognisable hero and protagonist, from Final Fantasy to Kingdom Hearts, Dissidia to Smash, for his very first onscreen kiss, to be with Tifa, and not the typically seen sole heroine and solo love interest Aerith (oft associated more by fans than official sources with the likes of fellow “official” love interests like Rinoa, Garnet, and Yuna, if by mere coincidence they are all “sorceresses/white mages” etc.) is very telling.

It really shouldn’t be a controversial or fresh revelation, to either side now.

We’ve had Advent Children, which despite how often it is cited by those who feverishly claim Cloud only ever loved Aerith, and desires death over life to be with her, actually ends with Cloud choosing life, represented in both the home and business he shares with Tifa, and Denzel the boy they adopt and raise together along with Barret’s daughter Marlene.

We’ve had the debated canonical Maiden Who Travels The Planet, that arguable canonicity and character assassination as it pertains to Aerith’s treatment of Zack aside, still firmly establishes even from Aerith’s own perspective that Cloud and Tifa are meant to be together in life.

We’ve had Crisis Core that, despite otherwise cementing Aerith and Zack as far more concrete lovers than Benny Matsuyama’s Maiden novella would suggest, also goes more firmly into the territory of depicting the angst and love between Cloud and Tifa during the Nibelheim Incident, which as we know facilitates the entire plot of Final Fantasy VII even existing.

And far more recently we’ve had Kazushige Nojima himself pen two novellas, Traces of Two Pasts and Cloud’s own Two Thousand Gil to Become a Hero, that perfectly bookend each other in the respect that they both unambiguously and equally affirm and more clearly establish both the desire and love that Tifa and Cloud feel for the other, prior to all the romantically charged moments to come between them in Remake and Rebirth.

And as far as romance goes for Cloud and Aerith… it’s nearly always tethered by an inescapable air of both melancholy and tragedy. Which some choose to romanticise.

No problem in that. Tragic, unrequited or unfulfilled love stories are among the most adored, celebrated even, and I’d argue in essence this is what the Cloud and Aerith story slightly leans into.

The issue is that for so many context is simply ignored, deliberately abandoned even, all in the goal of seeing only what they want to see.

If you get Aerith’s HA Gold Saucer date with the desire to see it as romantic, that is what you will see. It is 100% framed and deliberately shot in such a way. So I don’t blame people for seeing it in that way.

But you also cannot ignore the melancholy. The inescapable tragedy of the fact that, as much as Aerith desires to meet the real Cloud, she cannot.

Even the oft cited and resourced Maiden novella reestablishes that it’s only Tifa who can find the real Cloud and ultimately bring him back.

Aerith cannot, even if she desperately wishes too.

Couple this with, her inability to move on from Zack, that and her love of experiencing new things and living her life with her new loved family of friends, and you have one of the most tragic characters in gaming. Her deep connection to and love for Cloud is a mirror cast on this. She is taken from us far too soon. She is conflicted, torn even, on where her emotions lie. Despite her seeming omnipotence in Remake, Rebirth firmly establishes that she has lost these memories of hers and the others future, so her journey in Rebirth is as much her enjoying in and loving life to the fullest as it is her trying to both figure out and reflect on her deep feelings for the two most important men in her life, two men where there is a lot of overlap to the point it would leave anyone confused and conflicted, especially a woman like Aerith who, has been deprived of so much in life, is relatively inexperienced, reluctant initially to heed the call of destiny, because she had found a new family in friends and loved ones whom she’d rather spend more time by their side than accept a fate where she may be forever removed from them.

This is the melancholy and tragedy as it pertains to Aerith’s character that is so often overlooked and ignored, all to focus on the more artificial and constructed romantic tragedy of the denied love story between her and Cloud, a love story that is tenuous at best, again, if you actively choose to more thoroughly explore the full context of both character and story.

Zack is no longer some conveniently forgettable NPC whose scenes are locked away in an optional and easily missable cutscene as they were in the original.

Aerith is no longer the insensitive and arguably more narrowly impulsive character as she was in the original (she never asks Cait Sith for hers and Cloud’s romantic fortune/horoscope, though I believe this scene is explored more thoroughly and in detail in the entirety of the Sector 5 dream date, a more in depth way of depicting their “compatibility”)

And you would have to ignore the plethora of build up and addition to the romantic angle of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship, no longer merely contained to the games but the films and novellas themselves, and something that has definitely been developed in a way that suggests the developers are cognisant of the emotional payoff that will come in Part 3 as it depicts scenes like the Northern Crater and Lifestream sequences which are heavy in Cloud and Tifa development and thematic symbolism.
 
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