Gotta edit in some stuff, had comments on phone XD
Exactly, that mountain dwelling kid from the sticks is enough, he was always enough. Clouds struggle to me isn't about accepting that he isn't Captain America, it's about his sense of self-worth being so low he can't see that he already is.
This is a problem I have with a lot of the CA arguments as well as a lot of the characterization of Cloud post FFVII. I think it lacks thematic congruency. The best Cloud, imo, is the one who isn't captain america as you put it. In my opinion Cloud should never be Zack, I think the idea of Cloud not being special was core to the impact of his story in the original, and the more the games portray him as "actually, he was always amazing" the less special that story is. I want Cloud to win because he has friends and because of his bonds with them, not because he's simply "him".
One of my favorite things about the OG was that Sephiroth essentially just went "who tf are you when you first meet him again (jenova) onboard the boat.
Is AC worth watching ? The current consensus is it's kind of a shitty movie.
I love it, but I take a very different stance on it than most people. I think a lot of people dislike it because they don't understand it, and a large part of that is because of Clerith. The idea that Cloud is pining over Aerith makes them blind to the subtlety of whats actually going on.
I'll come back to this later but the thing about Cloud is that it's an example of a still lake hiding deep waters.
There is a lot going on beneath the surface, but CA depends on instead hyperfixating on the shallow beauty of said surface, making everything below it irrelevant. The trick to loving AC is realizing that Cloud hasn't regressed, that his emotions and modus operandi is very different now and is a logical continuation of his story in FFVII.
I was 20 in 2007
I was 20 in 2007. Why are you young people on my lawn?
I would HOPE ReTrilogy ends not just the LTD but the franchise too. When you let a thing have too many pieces of media you eventually run it into the ground. I don't want that to happen to such a beloved franchise.
Yeah, I absolutely DESPISE the LTD by now. IMO, saying "the story is whatever you want it to be" is the same as saying "there is no story". All the LTD is doing is lessening the developers ability to tell the story as clear, impactful, and focused as possible.
When talking about the OG, sure, Cloud and Aerith were a thing. Not past the Northern Crater, though.
Hard disagree, I don't get why so many people say this. I really think this is peoples assumptions speaking. You didn't have the context back then so you were more willing to assume that tropes are correct.
I think Aerith and Cloud are presented far more romantically in the remake than in the OG. On a scale of 0 to 10 of how much romance there is I'd give Aerith and Cloud a 0 in the OG, there is literally nothing. I might bump it up to 1, with the caveat that the game ALSO had a 1 or higher on the scale of "portraying this romance as being somehow wrong".
This is the crux of the whole " why show romance if it's not romantic" thing, or the "the date is definitely romantic" position.
Yes, these are romantic situations, but that doesn't mean that these situations exist to serve to tell the story of a beginning romance. We always have to ask ourselves: "what purpose does this scene have in the greater narrative", rather than just looking at how an individual scene might be romantic or not. Don't look at the puzzle pieces, look at their place in the whole.
With just about every single "romantic" Aerith scene there is not just an undercurrent of romance, but also an undercurrent of showing how this romance is "not how it's supposed to be". The Tifa factor is always there, the Zack factor is always there, Cloud is obstinate, the Tifa reveal serves to explain why, on a second viewing we're supposed to understand why Cloud is so distant, even on the date with Aerith Tifa is always in the back of his mind, and the same thing goes for Zack. In context these "romantic" scenes serve to tell the story of Aeriths tragic attempts to move on from Zack and live her life, the fact that Cloud is channeling Zack in some way highlights that tragedy and adds more context. But this also serves to soften the inevitable failure somewhat. Her not getting Cloud is less painful if Cloud isn't truly who she's searching for. In rebirth I'd say the Cloud Aerith dynamic is made way more romantic than in the OG. Maybe a 3/10, the only problem is that the implication of the wrongness of it is also increased to about a 9/10.
This Silver lining is NOT there in the inverse. If Aerith and Cloud is presented as genuine it's essentially just a hard "fuck you" towards Zack and Tifa, there is no silver lining here, they're just irrelevant characters compared to the aforementioned "HIM" and his ancient magical heroine stereotype.
Needless to say, I hate this interpretation with a fiery passion.
I'm fairly sure Cloud's mocap is also Zack's mocap unless I'm misunderstanding so of course he's not going to get between that, and I've Clotis citing him as being pro Tifa/Cloti.
Sitting at a distance is a romantic trope (I've just been playing a game again where the leads do the same, right up to the girl closing the distance because the guy kind of doesn't quite get it, and is kind of a goof sometimes) it's -because- he cares, and it's meant to parallel one of their previous dates where they get closer.
People can try to diminish or downplay Aerith's date as much as they want, fact is they used her as the romantic option on Cloud's profile and in the story digest of Rebirth Ultimania, and the developers said some dates were romantic, that's more than one, sure people on both sides can then try to split hairs over which is more romantic or dissect each date as much as possible going over every inch of framing, making OOC edits to make things look bad, etc but in the end they are both romantic even for those who try to make it small romance as much as possible.
If sitting in a distance is a romantic trope, then everything is. And indeed, everything can be, you have to look at it in the context of the characters and situations. For Cloud, and the context of him being in love with Tifa, him being continuously adverse to closeness with Aerith is NOT a good sign. Maybe in a different story where the new girl slowly steals the heart of the guy away from the girl he's always loved, but there are a bunch of reasons why this story is NOT that. Which is obvious in about every scene.
Imagine a situation where Cloud has to come clean about his feelings if this were the case: "Yeah, even though I was yearning for you my whole life, and shaped my aspirations on how to be worthy of you Tifa, a short time with Aerith while I was living a lie really makes me waver a bit." I don't think there's an easier way to make someone feel like shit about themselves than something like this happening. Really makes someone feel inferior to the other person
Basically this.
For the last twenty years now, I’ve gathered there is a great wish, fervent desire even, to openly talk about Cloud and Tifa in the same breath as Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Garnet, Tidus and Yuna etc.
From those who also love the Zack and Aerith romance, there is a hope that maybe they can be more broadly discussed within the same respectful manner as other Final Fantasy romances, without it derailing into how Aerith actually loved Cloud more, how Zack didn’t matter, how Tifa is an unimportant character etc.
Yes, it is simply annoying to me that I can't talk about Cloud and Tifa without adding in caveats for what I essentially see as some conspiracy theory that everything we know about FFVII is wrong and Cloud actually ends up with Aerith.
Yuffie's date is specifically highlighted as funny/family while Aerith's is called romantic though, while CA might not be on the level as CT, I'd put it above Yuffie as romantic.
CAs aren't getting the date to have a non romantic scene, to enjoy a great friendship or whatever, to them, non romantic will mean negative, if it's all about how Cloud and Aerith are such great friends, might as well let her have the GS scenes with Tifa or Red XIII, her best friends.
Yes, but romantic doesn't mean "real", in the end the scene still highlights it's "just an illusion". The scene still serves to highlight how the two aren't right for each other.
So Tifa takes a leap of faith. The kiss is both good and bad tbh, because Tifa has a similar issue to Aerith. Take the Zack of Aerith anc switch it out for “the Cloud of my memories”. He looks similar, sometimes even acts similar, but something isn’t similar at all. Maybe I should try to get closer to this Cloud?
This has always been the thing. Both Aerith and Tifa are looking for the spectre of an old love in Cloud. The reveal being that Tifa was the one with the genuine romantic connection. She finds her lost soldier in fake Cloud, Aerith does not, but does find him again, tragically, in death, leaving Tifa and Cloud as their living legacies, the humans who did what the heroes couldn't. Through their shared love.
Of course they could use the "I met this person who changed my life" trope, but in doing so they totally devalue Cloud's strength of character, which has enabled him to overcome mountains.
This is what I meant about the still waters running deep thing. If we accept that Aerith is romantically significant to Cloud we essentially have to sacrifice all the depths of his character in favor of a pretty but shallow surface. Cloud would have all this backstory that serves to explain his character and his actions, but in this case we'd essentially be saying that all that backstory is irrelevant. They are merely some trivia that isn't really relevant to our current goings on. Clouds MO HAS to revolve around Tifa, because if it doesn't Cloud essentially has not deeper layers anymore. With each event in Clouds life we can pass in a "because" between them. Cloud is distant towards Aerith BECAUSE he has already loves Tifa, his fake persona was made BECAUSE he wanted to be a soldier BECAUSE he wanted to be noticed, BECAUSE he felt inferior BECAUSE Tifa fell of the bridge BECAUSE he followed her up the mountain BECAUSE he loves her.
Cloti is the "because" that ties this entire story together, without it it falls apart. Same with Aerith and Zerith. Without it it's just that what you see is what you get. All those events still happened, but the because is gone. You are simply left with "Cloud likes Aerith because.....she's more fun than Tifa or something, idk". "Aerith likes Cloud because....he's hot or something? Idk, he's pretending to be Zack, but that's irrelevant apparently so".
The story just dies, it becomes pathetic, worse than twilight level writing, the usagi drop of gaming romances.
However when true Cloud comes back, we discover that it was only an illusion. We cannot decide for him who he loves romantically. That is Tifa, it has always been, and that's why CT has been portrayed the way it was in Rebirth: even if you go the CA route, you won't be able to avoid all the CT romance. Because all the routes (CA AND CT) stop at the Northern Crater. Here you are stripped of Cloud, who expresses his wish; those routes weren't including the real him, so he has to disappear and reborn anew, like Gandalf did after his death.
And this new Cloud doesn't let you get in the way of his feelings. The affection mechanism is gone, and we get him say how it's always been in the Lifestream sequence. We get him say that Tifa has always been core to his character, how much he wants to be special for her; how much he wants to protect her, how he wants to be noticed by her - and that was why he thought he should become strong, become a SOLDIER
This is one of those things were I do wonder if it was consciously intended, but really it doesn't matter. What matters is it works. With Cloti the whole of the story is thematically congruent. All the pieces fall into place. Even every optional Aerith scene fits in the grand tale that's being told. With Clerith you have to assume the kiss doesn't really happen. It leaves open weird and depressing routes where Cloud and Tifa kiss and then Tifa has to watch as she's set aside for some dead girl. Or worse, reality changes to allow for alternate worlds just so YOU as a character don't get your happy end. It's a depressing assassination of every character involved. Meanwhile Cloti, including Aerith scenes is still a sweet story where Cloud, Tifa, Zack, AND Aerith all end up right where they have to be. Everyone is special, no one is left out, no characters are assassinated.....things just work.
but recently there's been discourse about dark Cloti elsewhere, someone drew something or something, i
Yeah, it was really a nothing burger, Cloud assaults Tifa in her sleep, as happens in about a billion doujinshi that no one complains about. But because this comic set a more serious tone it's apparently unacceptable, because we can't have serious discussions or stories about dark subject matter apparently. This is a classic "if you don't like it, don't read it" situation, but Cleriths tried using it to prove Clotis are evil because they defended this persons freedom of speech or something.
You know, I've always felt that the 'debate' in FF7 is a bit of a sham. Because either the game is player choice or it's not player choice which would mean there's no debate either way.
The thing is, it seems at times that SE wants their cake and eat it too. Not in the "both Aerith and Tifa as viable options" cake, but in that they both want the game to be players choice, but also not.
They're vague, but they're not concrete about the vagueness. They never go "Well, both Tifa and Aerith are viable love interests, if you play more for Tifa then the story is that Cloud loves her always and never waivered and Aerith was only projecting her feelings for Zack onto Cloud, and if you play for Aerith Cloud will have conflicted feelings about both girls but will fall in love with Aerith before she dies and then depending on personal interpretation either go on with Tifa or stay obsessed with Aerith".
They don't say that shit, instead they say stuff like them having no idea if Cloud and Tifa are a couple, and that all answers are valid, while also saying shit like "we have answers to EVERY THING IN THE STORY, even the meaning behind the number of birds in the sky" and "oh, we'll leave less room for interpretation this time and people have imagined stuff wrong".
When they say stuff like "I wanted to incorporate players feelings, but there are no branching paths" they never explain what that means? Does that mean the events are the same but the characters emotions change depending on play style? Does that mean that nothing changes even about the emotions but you can get scenes that reward your interest in a character? What?
