SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[abzy1200]

I'd honestly argue that in the OG, Clerith was an absolute bait.

It was a time where Aerith projecting feelings for Zack onto Cloud (atleast at the start) was alluded to, but Aerith's history with Zack and Zack himself were hardly elaborated upon, even including very missable scenes. So on a first playthrough of the OG, most probably wouldn't make much of it.

The devs had half the time to develop Aerith's character compared to everyone else's, and that's a huge issue because the player is supposed to warm up to Aerith the most so that her death can have the most impact it can on the player.

On a first playthrough of the OG, it does look like a romance between Cloud and Aerith. Aerith being the love interest would make her death have more impact, so they kept that charade up to get the player interested in Cloud and Aerith to maximise how tragic her death is (atleast on a first reading of the game, her death is far more tragic on a second playthrough and after Crisis Core, but you couldn't really have had this context on a first playthrough in '97). I think there's a quote from Nomura that says something along those lines, not necessarily that she's a love interest, but that they had limited time to explore her character.

Essentially, it's a textbook bait-and-switch (that many still haven't realized happened), that's why in the second half there's a sequence of events that recontextualises literally everything about Cloud's actions, revealing Cloud only has eyes for Tifa. It's why that sequence of events isn't before Aerith's death and is in the second half of the game, because by that point Cloud and Aerith's 'romance' has already served it's purpose of (atleast attempting) impacting you, and you've had your cry over their 'tragic' romance.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I really don't think ZA is that a great love story, especially since ff7 is not Zack's game, is why I don't trust them to have even half as much as CA did in Re-trilogy. I don't think part 3 will focus on romance for Aerith, no kiss, sex, etc for her. So for me CA already has almost kisses, lots of hand holding, full body hug, etc, I ate good, I don't think part 3 ZA would feed me as well since Zack isn't the focus, I don't expect part 3 to be hyper focused on romance, LS, HW scene aside.

Maybe I'm wrong

I will eat hat if Aerith gets kiss in part 3.

Edit: No, it is a great love story, that's not fair to definitely say it isn't, I don't mean that, but her love for two men, two great loves, isn't fulfilled/consummated.

 

[Stiggie]

I mean Aerith's scenes could have been more of the how are you and Tifa getting a long wink wink nudge nudge

Agreed, this is one of my main gripes with rebirth, aerith was like that in remake and it was far better imo.

she is alluded to die. So in Rebirth she has to try again to move on from Zack (and doesn't fully move on either), her ancestors are all dead, and she dies herself

She has to guide people to the promised land and "returns to the planet" her entire existence is foreshadowing lol

 

[Ryeleigh]

I really don't think ZA is that a great love story, especially since ff7 is not Zack's game, is why I don't trust them to have even half as much as CA did in Re-trilogy. I don't think part 3 will focus on romance for Aerith, no kiss, sex, etc for her. So for me CA already has almost kisses, lots of hand holding, full body hug, etc, I ate good, I don't think part 3 ZA would feed me as well since Zack isn't the focus, I don't expect part 3 to be hyper focused on romance, LS, HW scene aside.

Maybe I'm wrong

I will eat hat if Aerith gets kiss in part 3.

Edit: No, it is a great love story, that's not fair to definitely say it isn't, I don't mean that, but her love for two men, two great loves, isn't fulfilled/consummated.

Well, to be fair, even if ZA doesn't get all that much in Part 3, they already kind of had their own game, you know? (Which, admittedly, had its own limitations.) But I do think they'd get a hug at least. Though, I'm not at all opposed to a ZA kiss too. And come to think of it, ZA did get a handhold beyond worlds in Rebirth so I'd say that counts for something, lol. And a hug in Crisis Core. Huh, a ZA kiss starting to look more likely, lmao.

And to be further fair, Crisis Core had its limitations which is why the devs couldn't put that much time into developing their relationship (which is honestly a shame. I wanted more, lol). Hence, the "love at first sight". They're also, what, 15-19 in Crisis Core? So it's not at all surprising that they didn't get anything physical (aside from a hug) for their love. I don't think it's all that common in action shounen either? Because I... can't remember a single action shounen that has a kiss? And kisses aren't that common in shoujo either? Or maybe that was the '90s shoujo, I don't know.

 

[abzy1200]

I will eat hat if Aerith gets kiss in part 3.

If we're referring to a Clerith kiss, then for reasons stated here ad nauseam, the whole story would implode and actively become a bad fanfiction, so let's really hope not.

I really don't think ZA is that a great love story

Ironically, I think Zerith is good because of Clerith, it adds so many layers to Aerith and expands the tragedy of it all.

Agreed, this is one of my main gripes with rebirth, aerith was like that in remake and it was far better imo.

I swear she does at multiple points, though? On the clock tower where she instantly starts talking to Cloud about friends, essentially subtly telling Cloud to go apologize for his row with Tifa, for one.

And teasing him for always trying to catch a glimpse of Tifa on the water tower when he was younger, for two. Aerith is still kind of encouraging them.

It's definitely less profound than in Remake, but these are different Aeriths, technically, so that's probably why the behaviour is slightly different.

So it's not at all surprising that they didn't get anything physical (aside from a hug) for their love. I don't think it's all that common in action shounen either? Because I... can't remember a single action shounen that has a kiss? And kisses aren't that common in shoujo either? Or maybe that was the '90s shoujo, I don't know.

Oh yeah? Well then what's this!?

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yeah, the hug from behind from Aerith to comfort Zack was cute.

part 3, I'm gearing up for my least favourite version of Aerith, unplayable, AC goddess materia jesus mode, distant spiritual protector, mysterious guide. Possibly Sephiroth/Jenova toys the party with another more interactive Aerith to confuse the player, etc but I don't know.

 

[abzy1200]

I think I'd have to agree with you there. I'm not a huge fan of the route they took with Aerith in the re;trilogy, I like it more when she's just as human as everyone else, and not playing 4d chess with the villain.

That's why I think I'll always prefer the Aerith that was depicted in the OG.

EDIT: It's also where most of my qualms with the re;trilogy come from. I loved Aerith in the OG, so it upsets me to see her characterized the way she is in the re;trilogy.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Oh yeah? Well then what's this!?

Oh yeah, that kiss! The most famous shounen kiss of all time! lmao. XD

part 3, I'm gearing up for my least favourite version of Aerith, unplayable, AC goddess materia jesus mode, distant spiritual protector, mysterious guide. Possibly Sephiroth/Jenova toys the party with another more interactive Aerith to confuse the player, etc but I don't know.

I don't know. Since I think Zack is going to be there, I can see his character keeping Aerith grounded as a human. I mean, it's kind of difficult to be a distant goddess mother figure if you're working out relationship tangles with your boyfriend? And I think a part of the reason why she's a distant goddess mother figure in ACC is that she isn't quite there (obviously). She doesn't actually interact with anyone and if she doesn't interact with anyone it's difficult to depict her as human, so to speak.

But really, who knows. I'm not going to predict anything about Part 3, lol.

 

[Stiggie]

I really don't think ZA is that a great love story, especially since ff7 is not Zack's game, is why I don't trust them to have even half as much as CA did in Re-trilogy. I don't think part 3 will focus on romance for Aerith, no kiss, sex, etc for her. So for me CA already has almost kisses, lots of hand holding, full body hug, etc, I ate good, I don't think part 3 ZA would feed me as well since Zack isn't the focus, I don't expect part 3 to be hyper focused on romance, LS, HW scene aside.

Maybe I'm wrong

I will eat hat if Aerith gets kiss in part 3.

Edit: No, it is a great love story, that's not fair to definitely say it isn't, I don't mean that, but her love for two men, two great loves, isn't fulfilled/consummated.

This is very much YMMV I think. I do consider Zerith to be one of the best love stories in FF at least, and I find that whenever I think about how CA would be as a love story that I think it's the most ill-written trash conceivable, and yet CA seemingly still has a bunch of people who absolutely love it, or describe it as a perfect romance, despite me thinking even Twilight is more tightly written...but then again, twilight also has millions of fans so as I said, this really is YMMV.

I would say though that it's wrong to look at Zerith or Clerith in isolation to determine if it's a great love story. Because there is more at play. With Clerith Zack and Tifa still exist. And Clerith can ONLY be a good love story if those other elements are also well written, if THE ENTIRE GAME is well written. The story must fit with the entire game, chekovs gun essentially states than anything not neccesary for the story needs to be cut....but in the Clerith version of the story the entire character of Tifa isn't really necessary. CA is poorly written because if it were true FFVII in its entirety wouldn't work. Similarly one of the reasons why Zerith is a great love story is that it's not Zerith, it's Zerith + Cloti.
Forget labels, It's the love story of "Cloud, Tifa, Aerith and Zack" that's amazingly written if we follow the story as presented by Clotis and Zeriths.
And it's the love story of "Cloud, Tifa, Aerith and Zack" that is half-assed if we follow the story as presented by Cleriths. Sure, Cloud and Aerith might have a few cute scenes that work if you ignore context, and if that context simply didn't exist it might be a good love story. Hell, I could write a version of this story where I remove Tifa and Zack and change the context and a bunch of other things that would be very good....but the context DOES exist, and with said context Clerith just isn't fit for consumption imo.

Yeah, the hug from behind from Aerith to comfort Zack was cute.

This, honestly, is one of my favorite romantic moments in fiction period. I find it hard to describe why, but it just has a believability to it that I find extremely endearing. Aerith first just talking trying to get Zacks mind off it. Zack being there, not to talk to her or anything but simply to find solace in the presence of the woman he loves. It just feels eminently plausible as something a man would do, not ask for direct help, but a comforting presence. And then Aerith just acknowledging that with no words being spoken by her no longer talking but hugging him and letting him feel her warmth. That back hug is everything to me and just gave me a sense of natural intimacy that I've never seen between Aerith and Cloud.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, to be fair, even if ZA doesn't get all that much in Part 3, they already kind of had their own game, you know? (Which, admittedly, had its own limitations.) But I do think they'd get a hug at least. Though, I'm not at all opposed to a ZA kiss too. And come to think of it, ZA did get a handhold beyond worlds in Rebirth so I'd say that counts for something, lol. And a hug in Crisis Core. Huh, a ZA kiss starting to look more likely, lmao.

And to be further fair, Crisis Core had its limitations which is why the devs couldn't put that much time into developing their relationship (which is honestly a shame. I wanted more, lol). Hence, the "love at first sight". They're also, what, 15-19 in Crisis Core? So it's not at all surprising that they didn't get anything physical (aside from a hug) for their love. I don't think it's all that common in action shounen either? Because I... can't remember a single action shounen that has a kiss? And kisses aren't that common in shoujo either? Or maybe that was the '90s shoujo, I don't know.

She's 17 and he's 18 as of the Nibelheim Incident. As of his death they were 22 and 23.
Cloud is 21, Tifa is 20, for the record.

Barret is 35 at the start of the game and turns 36 without fanfare at some point during the rebirth segment.

 

[pxl_pushr]

She's 17 and he's 18 as of the Nibelheim Incident. As of his death they were 22 and 23.
Cloud is 21, Tifa is 20, for the record.

Barret is 35 at the start of the game and turns 36 without fanfare at some point during the rebirth segment.

Tbf by the time you’re 35, you’re birthday has lost its luster lol

Crazy to think how young some of these characters are, yet not as young as your typical JRPG protags.

 

[Eerie]

She has to guide people to the promised land and "returns to the planet" her entire existence is foreshadowing lol

She doesn't guide people to the promise land, she will get to the promise land, which was also an allusion to her death in the OG. Now, with what we're seeing in Rebirth... there are good chances that her promise land is the church with Zack in it.

I really don't think ZA is that a great love story

I understand what you mean, but ZA had quite many things that also suggest soulmates IMHO (the hand reach, but other visual effects too like staring at the sky to begin/end Zack's world sequence). But there are chances for a ZA kiss, even if I wouldn't bet on it - they could sweeten the deal since they couldn't put it in CC. Also FYI, peko once told me that back hugs in Japan are seen as extremely romantic so they had that, at least lol.

To me love story implies that both parties are in love with each other, and somehow that fails with CA because no matter how you look at the prettiness of the idea behind it: she doesn't know the true him, it's an illusion and their characters don't mesh that well together.

 

[abzy1200]

Barret is 35 at the start of the game and turns 36 without fanfare at some point during the rebirth segment.

#JusticeforBarret'sbirthday

 

[overheat28]

I'm of the opinion ZA received the most intimate, tender moment in the game right at the start. At least among the non-optional scenes. I would hesitate to put even Tifa GS date above it considering they both acted like awkward teens right after.

Zack does not. He knows how he views Aerith, its unequivocal. Yes, you could of course say that Aerith was unconscious but I guess the point was to cement Zack's feelings as Aerith's resolution would come later.

I was shocked that they decided to even open with Zack, let alone show what they did. After that, a kiss in p3 is not a far leap, imo. By virtue of the limited screentime, they are leaning into full cheese territory with ZA. CT has the time for a slow burn of sorts, ZA does not. And I don't see this changing in part 3. Expect more fireworks.

Taking out a helicopter, touching hands across the lifestream, jumping across worlds....mileage may vary of course, but Zack is trying his best and he's clearly not done yet

 

[pxl_pushr]

I'm of the opinion ZA received the most intimate, tender moment in the game right at the start. At least among the non-optional scenes. I would hesitate to put even Tifa GS date above it considering they both acted like awkward teens right after.

Zack does not. He knows how he views Aerith, its unequivocal. Yes, you could of course say that Aerith was unconscious but I guess the point was to cement Zack's feelings as Aerith's resolution would come later.

I was shocked that they decided to even open with Zack, let alone show what they did. After that, a kiss in p3 is not a far leap, imo. By virtue of the limited screentime, they are leaning into full cheese territory with ZA. CT has the time for a slow burn of sorts, ZA does not. And I don't see this changing in part 3. Expect more fireworks.

Taking out a helicopter, touching hands across the lifestream, jumping across worlds....mileage may vary of course, but Zack is trying his best and he's clearly not done yet

“Hang on baby, your hero is on the way!”

I think both CT and ZA will get quite a few romantic gestures by the time p3 wraps up. Not really gonna have time to dance around it with all that plot to get through.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Two other ideas I want to float (yeah I've had way too much caffeine this weekend )

*Back when the leaks came out, there was one fake leak that said Aerith and Zack went back in time and stopped Nibelheim incident from happening, how would people feel if they really did that?

*Kitase said they shouldn't forget to put an important scene in the game - most people thought he meant something nice, but what if it was like the original idea most of the cast dies while returning to Midgar?

Edit; Poor Serah/Snow, they never did get that wedding, I was a bit salty, ngl, after making it through all those games.

 

[Eerie]

I would hesitate to put even Tifa GS date above it considering they both acted like awkward teens right after.

Nah. Cloud and Tifa being shy dorks is in character, they're not acting like teens, they're acting like dorks who don't want others to pry on their intimate moment lol.

 

[Eerie]

*Back when the leaks came out, there was one fake leak that said Aerith and Zack went back in time and stopped Nibelheim incident from happening, how would people feel if they really did that?

The Nibelheim incident is the crux of the story, the reason why everything that happened happened. Basically Zack and Aerith would be saved and probably married let's be honest, I guess, but Cloud would never kill Sephiroth, never be injected with mako and become mako poisoned, Tifa would never save him. Maybe Cloud and Tifa would reunite in any other way (most probably during the event) and become a couple like this but it wouldn't be FFVII anymore. Cloud and Aerith would never meet, it would basically erase all Remake lol did people really think it was a possible leak?

In short you cannot touch the Nibelheim incident, or the story never happens.

*Kitase said they shouldn't forget to put an important scene in the game - most people thought he meant something nice, but what if it was like the original idea most of the cast dies while returning to Midgar?

People think it's something good because Kitase wants a good ending for these characters. So no it's not most of the party being killed when they go back to Midgar.

 

[abzy1200]

*Back when the leaks came out, there was one fake leak that said Aerith and Zack went back in time and stopped Nibelheim incident from happening, how would people feel if they really did that?

I'd go spare and burn anything I own that's ff7 related if this happened, honestly.

but what if it was like the original idea most of the cast dies while returning to Midgar?

Eh, I feel like it's kind of Aerith's thing, having more characters die would just distract from that

Cloud and Aerith would never meet, it would basically erase all Remake lol did people really think it was a possible leak?

I feel like they would, if Aerith is Zack's wife, and Zack is Cloud's best friend, it would be odd for him to never ever meet his best friend's wife, not once in his whole life.

 

[Stiggie]

Two other ideas I want to float (yeah I've had way too much caffeine this weekend )

*Back when the leaks came out, there was one fake leak that said Aerith and Zack went back in time and stopped Nibelheim incident from happening, how would people feel if they really did that?

*Kitase said they shouldn't forget to put an important scene in the game - most people thought he meant something nice, but what if it was like the original idea most of the cast dies while returning to Midgar?

Edit; Poor Serah/Snow, they never did get that wedding, I was a bit salty, ngl, after making it through all those games.

I think killing the entire party wont fit with the "I've spent so much time with these characters I'd like to give them a happy ending" quote XD

Concerning not having Nibelheim happen, I'd hate that, to me it would just invalidate everything that happened, I hate it when stories do that. Here it would even be worse because Nibelheim isn't the origin of the stories main internal conflict.
Preventing Nibelheim does nothing because the most important conflict in the story is Clouds conflict with himself, which existed before Nibelheim. Removing it simply removes Clouds story-arc and leaves him broken.

I am pretty certain that the "important scene people haven't seen yet" is the Aerith Zack reunion. And yeah, that is my most anticipated scene that isn't in the OG.

 

[imach0c0]

One of the things I have observed with the Remake trilogy is the use of visual storytelling in depicting character relationships.

Regarding ZA in particular, there is a lot of visual storytelling, especially in Remake and Rebirth. The storytelling tool is effective for their story (tragic love story) because although they are not physically in the same space as one another, we (the player) are given visual imagery to show how they are still connected to each other. Things like parallel dialogue, symbolism and shot choices are used to depict this.

Here are some examples how dialogue is used:

REMAKE

When Aerith first meets Cloud after the Sephiroth illusion, she ask: JP "Are you okay? (paraphrase)
The camera shot, her head angle and the way she looks at Cloud is very similar (shot for shot) of Zack looking at Cloud and asking if he's ok in the AC flashback of him.

When Aerith gives the flower to Cloud, she says: JP "Its a memento of our meeting" (paraphrase)
In CC, Zack says this to Aerith when buys the bow for her.

When Aerith loses her balance on the Sector 5 roofs and Cloud catches her, she says: JP "How reliable" (paraphrase)
In CC, when Zack fights off the monsters, Aerith says the same thing to Zack.

When Aerith sneaks out to spend more time with Cloud, she says: JP "I want to spend more time with you" (rough translation)
This is one of the 23 wishes that Aerith tells Zack in CC.

When Aerith looks at Cloud's eyes and leans in closer, its a very similar shot to when Aerith leaned into Zack to look at his eyes in CC.
Also, the line Cloud says about the mako eyes is the same line Zack says to Aerith in CC (if not, its very similar - I need to double check this)


REBIRTH

At Aerith's bedside, Zack says: JP "Moshi Moshi"
Its the same line Aerith did to Zack in CC. Aerith does it to Cloud as well, however, I think there is more significance to Zack because ZA have a history of repeating each other's lines.

When Aerith says something about the sunscreen in costa del sol, she says : JP "Hyu Hyu da ne" - That's cute (rough translation)
When Marlene affirms the Aerith's feelings for Cloud, Zack says: JP "Hyu Hyu da ne" - That's cute (rough translation)

In the dream date, when Aerith takes the flower pin, she says: JP "I will always treasure this" (rough translation)
In CC, when Zack buys the bow for Aerith, she says the same line to Zack.

In the opening of rebirth, Zack tells Aerith as he holds her body: JP "I have returned back to you" (rough translation)
In the end of CC, the last thing Aerith tells Zack (as well as the last Aerith dialogue that appears in his DMW) is: JP "I'll be waiting"
In the LOVELESS play, the hero tells Rosa: JP "I will return for I know someone will be waiting" (rough translation)

All in all, its a type of storytelling that is easily missable because it relies on SHOW rather than TELL. If you pay attention, there are plenty of little and details and nuances that serve this narrative. Also, the dialogue parallels are missable if you don't play in JP because the translations are slightly different.

 

[Eerie]

I am pretty certain that the "important scene people haven't seen yet" is the Aerith Zack reunion.

I'm pretty sure it's not because it's something too heavily hinted at which means it was already in the script - maybe it's a ZA kiss though lol.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Since I think Zack is going to be there, I can see his character keeping Aerith grounded as a human. I mean, it's kind of difficult to be a distant goddess mother figure if you're working out relationship tangles with your boyfriend?

And flirting! How could I forget flirting! I want them to flirt like crazy to make up for lost time, lol.

She's 17 and he's 18 as of the Nibelheim Incident. As of his death they were 22 and 23.
Cloud is 21, Tifa is 20, for the record.

Right! Thank you. I just remember that they're essentially babies in CC, lol.

*Back when the leaks came out, there was one fake leak that said Aerith and Zack went back in time and stopped Nibelheim incident from happening, how would people feel if they really did that?

Well, unlike apparently everyone else, I guess I could see it as an ending? In this fan fic au kind of way? Depending on how far back in time Aerith and Zack would go, Cloud either doesn't leave Nibelheim or reunites with Tifa later in other means, and it basically turns into a slice-of-life romance FF7, lol.

*Kitase said they shouldn't forget to put an important scene in the game - most people thought he meant something nice, but what if it was like the original idea most of the cast dies while returning to Midgar?

And as others said, didn't he also say that he wants them all to have a happy ending, lol?

 

[imach0c0]

I'm pretty sure it's not because it's something too heavily hinted at which means it was already in the script - maybe it's a ZA kiss though lol.

Im inclined to assume if there is a kiss, it would be CT.

Having said that, do you think its too much for both ZA and CT to have a kiss?

 

[Eerie]

Im inclined to assume if there is a kiss, it would be CT.

Having said that, do you think its too much for both ZA and CT to have a kiss?

A CT kiss is a definitive, at least under the HW and maybe even another in the LS scene (let me dream ok but I think it's highly possible to underline how romantic this scene is).

What I'm saying is that there is also the possibility of a ZA kiss, once they have reunited and cleared everything between them.