SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I think killing the entire party wont fit with the "I've spent so much time with these characters I'd like to give them a happy ending" quote XD

Concerning not having Nibelheim happen, I'd hate that, to me it would just invalidate everything that happened, I hate it when stories do that. Here it would even be worse because Nibelheim isn't the origin of the stories main internal conflict.
Preventing Nibelheim does nothing because the most important conflict in the story is Clouds conflict with himself, which existed before Nibelheim. Removing it simply removes Clouds story-arc and leaves him broken.

I am pretty certain that the "important scene people haven't seen yet" is the Aerith Zack reunion. And yeah, that is my most anticipated scene that isn't in the OG.
I could see "a world where the incident never happened" as an illusory world presented to Cloud and Tifa at some point in the story, where they need to snap out of the illusion and face reality and Sephiroth together.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
A CT kiss is a definitive, at least under the HW and maybe even another in the LS scene (let me dream ok but I think it's highly possible to underline how romantic this scene is).

What I'm saying is that there is also the possibility of a ZA kiss, once they have reunited and cleared everything between them.
I get what you mean.

Do you think it necessary for ZA to get a kiss as well or is a hug enough?

Given that CT gets a kiss, would it be too much if ZA also got one? Especially for a FF type game.
 
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Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
I could see "a world where the incident never happened" as an illusory world presented to Cloud and Tifa at some point in the story, where they need to snap out of the illusion and face reality and Sephiroth together.
ive had an idea about this Sephiroth showing Cloud taunting him like see what your future could have been
this was a shower thought that in no way think is happening though XD
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
When Marlene affirms the Aerith's feelings for Cloud, Zack says: JP "Hyu Hyu da ne" - That's cute (rough translation)
Is that what he said? I was trying to translate that line but couldn't find a video of it with japanese subtitles. But what I heard was "Kinkyū Da ne", which would mean "it's an emergency then?" or something along those lines. Essentially I took it to playfully say it's important and urgent.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Do you think it necessary for ZA to get a kiss as well or is a hug enough?

Given that CT gets a kiss, would it be too much if ZA also got one? Especially for a FF type game.
I guess they could go with a hug but it would make fans happy to get a ZA kiss so I'd say it's not off the table; they have shown that they also want to please the fans in this trilogy, so it might happen. It would show Aerith fans that she have found her happiness, at least, and that would be sweet for her character.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
Is that what he said? I was trying to translate that line but couldn't find a video of it with japanese subtitles. But what I heard was "Kinkyū Da ne", which would mean "it's an emergency then?" or something along those lines. Essentially I took it to playfully say it's important and urgent.
This is the Japanese subtitles:
Zack: それは ひゅ~ひゅ~だな
Marlene: ひゅ~ひゅ~
 

Empyrea

Pro Adventurer
The narrative is pretty clear on where Cloud and Aerith stand, which is exactly why Aerith says she knows where they stand now at the end of the dream date. If anything, I find the writing kind of insulting because I feel like they're holding my hand and being like "See? Cloud and Aerith are just two confused people who are both in love with someone else!" And I'm like "YEAH, I KNOW." But .... given the fact that the LTD remains, I guess I understand why they did it that way--not that it seems to have changed anything at all.
Just to piggyback off this, I've said elsewhere that at this point, given how the Retrilogy has thrown all subtlety out the window, about the only thing the devs have left to do is violate "Show, don't tell."

...which I hope they don't. My face hurts from all the bricks Retrilogy's sledgehammer broke against it already.
 
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Yoru

Pro Adventurer
I came across a gif from the end of Remake when Tifa slips on the floor of the Shinra roof to catch Cloud just in time.

And I thought, looking back: is it just me, or did they add a lot of scenes that didn't exist with Tifa?

And I'm not even talking about the "fan service" scenes based on our in-game choices (midnight date/GS date).

Maybe I'm biased and I don't realize it, but I have the impression that Aerith simply keeps her scenes or even loses some (highwind, cait sith etc.) while Tifa has quite a few new ones.

And there's a bit of that philosophy again with the Gold Saucer. Aerith is rather faithful to OG (with even the same dialogues) while Tifa takes advantage of a completely different context and a totally crazy ending.

That was my midnight thought. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
 

Empyrea

Pro Adventurer
Because I... can't remember a single action shounen that has a kiss? And kisses aren't that common in shoujo either? Or maybe that was the '90s shoujo, I don't know.
I recall this vividly. If the main pair gets a kiss in a 90s shoujo, the story is almost over. And that's if they're lucky :mon:
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
I recall this vividly. If the main pair gets a kiss in a 90s shoujo, the story is almost over. And that's if they're lucky :mon:
South Korean dramas don't go crazy with the physicality either (or didn't used to, I haven't watched the new ones). So when the couples do get kisses, it's always EPIC, lol. It's so cute. Honestly better than American romance shows because watching those I'm always like, "omg, please stop swapping spit", lol.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
I've heard a lot of people talk about how its good that they're not jealous in the remake but instead friends and I think I am one of the few people who actually disagrees lol.
For one I don't think there is anything wrong with jealousy, it's a human emotion that's fine to explore so I don't mind it being there. But Aerith and Tifas friendship does come with baggage that I find particularly unpalpable.

If Aerith and Tifa are great friends then Aeriths behavior kinda disgusts me, it's one thing to hit on Cloud in the presence of Tifa if you don't really know her. But to do it while pretending to be great friends, even as a rebound, or maybe especially as a rebound, just really sickens me. In Rebirth anytime Aerith is alone with Cloud it feels like she's waiting to be alone with him so she can stop her "I'm your friend act" with Tifa an stab her in the back while she's not looking.

Imagine being Tifa, having all these heart to hearts with Aerith, helping her with her pain over Zack, talking about boys, you have a date at the GS with Cloud, you then almost kiss him in Gongaga, Aerith is all supportive telling you it'll be alright, you go back to the GS, you kiss Cloud. And then suddenly when no one is watching Aerith uses her ancient powers to go on a dream date with Cloud and following Clerith interpretations confess her feelings to him......I can say it in no other way than FUCK this woman. Right now I can still find some reasons to give Aerith the benefit of the doubt, mostly the fact that I think Aerith is desperately projecting her feelings for Zack onto Cloud even during the dream date, and is only doing it because she knows this is the end and she wants closure. Aka, she is in no way trying to get between Cloud and Tifa here, she knows that there is no outcome to this date that would result in Tifa being hurt since even IF they both had feelings for each other, that date would still be the end of it and Cloud would go on to Tifa.

But really, if there is ANYTHING in p3 that hints at Aerith actually trying to further connect with Cloud in some romantic way past that date....her character is dead to me. And her friendship with Tifa would be to blame for it, because friends don't do that.


This is what convinced me it wasn't jealousy, the moment he said the same thing while alone the idea of it being jealousy made zero sense to me.
I've said this before but I'll say it again. I think the writers have a lot of cognitive dissonance between how the writers want the characters to come across and how the characters actually behave. I don't think your reading of Aerith is accurate to the story's intent. That said, it's completely reasonable, and if we were talking about characters who felt more like real people, I might even agree. The problem is that the story tends to be pretty arbitrary as to when to defer to understandings of anime tropes. I feel it does so in a way that really hurts the characterization.

Tifa and Aerith aren't more enlightened or mature for not being jealous and occasionally petty over liking the same guy. It's a genuinely awkward situation. Cloud is also prone to extreme violence against both of them, which can come at any uncontrollable moment. Both girls unquestioningly ~~believe~~ in him no matter what though, and remain devoted. The end result, to me, just looks like 2 waifu characters who only make sense when viewing them with working knowledge of incredibly tropey harem and/or isekai anime. Of course Aerith and Tifa are super devoted to this guy, he's the main character. Of course their friendship never suffers for it, he's the main character. The girls themselves get it, the audience should too!

...It's why I've fully boarded with the delulu yuri. Even though the Aerith/Tifa date was pure wholesome fanservice, at least they come across as genuinely liking each other. Them liking Cloud makes me feel bad for them tbh. It also makes me like the characters less because the virtue of their sustained interest in him feels so bland.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
I think for Tifa it makes sense, narratively, to have a high faith in Cloud - because it is her job, so to speak, and also because Cloud does open up to her in ways he doesn't to others, so that faith can carry on; the Lifestream sequence has been added to add faith to Tifa, so she would believe he truly is Cloud, to maintain her faith high. Cloud relies on her faith in him to be able to function so yeah, while it can feel weird, at least there's a reasoning behind it. Aerith though? There's literally no reason for her to do that, except for the fact that she fell in love with him (how we're still not sure to be honest). Which is odd because honestly at 18 days of knowing Cloud, it should be at best a crush and not something deep (even more so with her not knowing the real Cloud and be aware about it).
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
I came across a gif from the end of Remake when Tifa slips on the floor of the Shinra roof to catch Cloud just in time.

And I thought, looking back: is it just me, or did they add a lot of scenes that didn't exist with Tifa?

And I'm not even talking about the "fan service" scenes based on our in-game choices (midnight date/GS date).

Maybe I'm biased and I don't realize it, but I have the impression that Aerith simply keeps her scenes or even loses some (highwind, cait sith etc.) while Tifa has quite a few new ones.

And there's a bit of that philosophy again with the Gold Saucer. Aerith is rather faithful to OG (with even the same dialogues) while Tifa takes advantage of a completely different context and a totally crazy ending.

That was my midnight thought. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
the most reflecting thing for me when looking back at Remake. Is one of the first pieces of information the player learns in the game is Jessie asking Cloud if him and Tifa are close. Which then leads to a flashback so we get introduced to a plot point very early on thats memorable. Arguably, its the first main story point of the game. Which is then repeated by Aerith later asking the same question after another young Tifa flashback (all lifestream set up from game 1) again. Cloud cannot explain what his relationship is with Tifa; only Aerith says shes someone special. Theres a storytelling term; I cant remember what it is though. When a plot point or question is brought up through the story but not resolved, it means later in the story it will be resolved. Or there was no point to keep asking it or having a character ask it. So by the end of Remake Trilogy we will know Clouds feelings for Tifa and we do in the lifestream sequence.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Nah, Tifa's fucked too imo. Tifa's Lifestream sequence is literally a magic whale (the whale ex machina) saving her from an attempted murder that would have otherwise been successful. Said magic whale shows her Cloud didn't mean it really, uwu (ignoring the fact that it could, in fact, happen again at a moment's notice). The rest of the story carries on, as if the stakes concerning the reason for her unease around him haven't been raised dramatically. The end result just makes her come across a poorly done Yamato Nadeshiko.

Then the rest of the cast seem to agree with her that it's nbd Cloud is completely losing it, because their reactions (including Tifa's!) are so weirdly ambivalent. That, or they conveniently don't see all the really egregious shit happening, which in turn would mean Tifa is withholding information that is unambiguously crucial for everyone to be aware of, because it could literally cost them their lives. The writer super under-emphasis the scenes where they do seem concerned, and undersell the amount of concern they really should be showing in this situation. It seems to be a little bit of all these things that make it feel so hard to employ my suspension of disbelief. Either way, it circles back to the same crap where the audience has to accept the entire cast's unwavering belief in the protagonist, even when it makes absolutely no sense for them to do so. Defer to anime for this to seem remotely reasonable, he's the main character after all. It's all really silly.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Nah, Tifa's fucked too imo. Tifa's Lifestream sequence is literally a magic whale (the whale ex machina) saving her from an attempted murder that would have otherwise been successful. Said magic whale shows her Cloud didn't mean it really, uwu (ignoring the fact that it could, in fact, happen again at a moment's notice). The rest of the story carries on, as if the stakes concerning the reason for her unease around him haven't been raised dramatically. The end result just makes her come across a poorly done Yamato Nadeshiko.

Then the rest of the cast seem to agree with her that it's nbd Cloud is completely losing it, because their reactions (including Tifa's!) are so weirdly ambivalent. That, or they conveniently don't see all the really egregious shit happening, which in turn would mean Tifa is withholding information that is unambiguously crucial for everyone to be aware of, because it could literally cost them their lives. The writer super under-emphasis the scenes where they do seem concerned, and undersell the amount of concern they really should be showing in this situation. It seems to be a little bit of all these things that make it feel so hard to employ my suspension of disbelief. Either way, it circles back to the same crap where the audience has to accept the entire cast's unwavering belief in the protagonist, even when it makes absolutely no sense for them to do so. Defer to anime for this to seem remotely reasonable, he's the main character after all. It's all really silly.
I think that was done on purpose for Sephiroth to use it against her and Cloud and turn the group against each other in NC could be wrong though
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I think for Tifa it makes sense, narratively, to have a high faith in Cloud - because it is her job, so to speak, and also because Cloud does open up to her in ways he doesn't to others, so that faith can carry on; the Lifestream sequence has been added to add faith to Tifa, so she would believe he truly is Cloud, to maintain her faith high. Cloud relies on her faith in him to be able to function so yeah, while it can feel weird, at least there's a reasoning behind it. Aerith though? There's literally no reason for her to do that, except for the fact that she fell in love with him (how we're still not sure to be honest). Which is odd because honestly at 18 days of knowing Cloud, it should be at best a crush and not something deep (even more so with her not knowing the real Cloud and be aware about it).
This is what I mean about Clerith being twilight level writing. I can think of many reasons why Aerith would have a crush on Cloud, but I can't think of any reasons that from a story telling perspective would be seen as "indicative of true love". Only "wrong reasons", reasons that should lead towards the story conclusion that "this isn't a good reason to like someone".
Aerith genuinely liking Cloud, when he's not himself and the person he's being is both rather awful, and partially based on her Ex.....is death to any "this is what true love looks like" telling of the story.

With Tifa I agree that her loyalty doesn't run into the same issues. Because she's known Cloud since before he became a soldier. She's known about the degradation from before he started acting erratic and the actions he performs because of it (she thinks its because of it, I know its Jenova and seph) aren't used by her to judge him as a person because they don't reflect who he is. And while she doesn't like his Soldier persona she gets more glimpses of the real Cloud. He never treats her horribly normally, and often opens up, making it logical that she'd see that the boy she once loved is still in there somewhere. The most progress she makes towards liking him is when she's reminded of who he was inside before all this started combined with him acknowledging that he's essentially having a severe medical issue.
Add to that the fact that on some level she WANTS to be in love with Cloud because of what he means to her symbolically and I get her devotion completely. Hell, I even think that his issues sort of endear him to her because she sees it as a shared trauma that they can help each other with.

Theres a storytelling term; I cant remember what it is though. When a plot point or question is brought up through the story but not resolved, it means later in the story it will be resolved. Or there was no point to keep asking it or having a character ask it. So by the end of Remake Trilogy we will know Clouds feelings for Tifa and we do in the lifestream sequence.
I think you mean Chekov's gun. And yeah, Chekov's gun is essentially why Clerith is doomed. Because all the Chekov's guns that have been set-up between Cloud and Tifa point to a reveal of their enduring mutual love. While every Chekov's gun with Aerith points towards it not being real.

Then the rest of the cast seem to agree with her that it's nbd Cloud is completely losing it, because their reactions (including Tifa's!) are so weirdly ambivalent. That, or they conveniently don't see all the really egregious shit happening, which in turn would mean Tifa is withholding information that is unambiguously crucial for everyone to be aware of, because it could literally cost them their lives. The writer super under-emphasis the scenes where they do seem concerned, and undersell the amount of concern they really should be showing in this situation. It seems to be a little bit of all these things that make it feel so hard to employ my suspension of disbelief. Either way, it circles back to the same crap where the audience has to accept the entire cast's unwavering belief in the protagonist, even when it makes absolutely no sense for them to do so. Defer to anime for this to seem remotely reasonable, he's the main character after all. It's all really silly.

To be fair, while I agree that this should be discussed more I think the game makes it pretty clear that the reason they put up with it is because they know that without Cloud they really can't do anything. They're genuinely lost about what to do and have essentially resolved to just watch over him and hope for the best and that he can overcome this or at least hold out.
If we look at Tifas face at the end that's not just distraught over Aeriths death, she's distraught because she thinks Cloud has finally essentially lost it, and she's completely lost as well because she has no clue how to handle it.
If they really ignored it we wouldn't have scenes like Barret in Nibelheim going "oh ok, so the town was rebuild, I figured Cloud might be bat shit insane again". They notice, they keep it in mind....but they can't really do anything.
 
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Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
This is what I mean about Clerith being twilight level writing. I can think of many reasons why Aerith would have a crush on Cloud, but I can't think of any reasons that from a story telling perspective would be seen as "indicative of true love". Only "wrong reasons", reasons that should lead towards the story conclusion that "this isn't a good reason to like someone".
Aerith genuinely liking Cloud, when he's not himself and the person he's being is both rather awful, and partially based on her Ex.....is death to any "this is what true love looks like" telling of the story.

With Tifa I agree that her loyalty doesn't run into the same issues. Because she's known Cloud since before he became a soldier. She's known about the degradation from before he started acting erratic and the actions he performs because of it (she thinks its because of it, I know its Jenova and seph) don't bother her because she knows they don't reflect who he really is. And while she doesn't like his Soldier persona she gets more glimpses of the real Cloud. He never treats her horribly normally, and often opens up, making it logical that she'd see that the boy she once loved is still in there somewhere.
Add to that the fact that on some level she WANTS to be in love with Cloud because of what he means to her symbolically and I get her devotion completely. Hell, I even think that his issues sort of endear him to her because she sees it as a shared trauma that they can help each other with, it.


I think you mean Chekov's gun. And yeah, Chekov's gun is essentially why Clerith is doomed. Because all the Chekov's guns that have been set-up between Cloud and Tifa point to a reveal of their enduring mutual love. While every Chekov's gun with Aerith points towards it not being real.
yeah thats the term they have Chekov's gunned xd Tifa and Clouds relationship as a plot point in Remake something i noticed with no knowledge of FF7 on my first playthrough. I think thats also why a lot of newer players on youtube seem to lean cloti from what ive noticed
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
the most reflecting thing for me when looking back at Remake. Is one of the first pieces of information the player learns in the game is Jessie asking Cloud if him and Tifa are close. Which then leads to a flashback so we get introduced to a plot point very early on thats memorable. Arguably, its the first main story point of the game. Which is then repeated by Aerith later asking the same question after another young Tifa flashback (all lifestream set up from game 1) again. Cloud cannot explain what his relationship is with Tifa; only Aerith says shes someone special. Theres a storytelling term; I cant remember what it is though. When a plot point or question is brought up through the story but not resolved, it means later in the story it will be resolved. Or there was no point to keep asking it or having a character ask it. So by the end of Remake Trilogy we will know Clouds feelings for Tifa and we do in the lifestream sequence.
To add to the same story point (Cloud and Tifa's relationship) being brought up --

It seems Rebirth continues to address this indirectly through other characters. These are 2 examples that come to mind (there may be more but I have not looked deeply into it)

1. Yuffie GS date - Yuffie talks about Tifa having a crush on Cloud and asks Cloud if he did. When Yuffie says that Tifa probably forgot about Cloud after moving to Midgar, Cloud seems to frown and be bothered by it.
2. Aerith Water Tower convo at Nibelheim - Aerith calls out Cloud potentially using the tower as a lookout spot to Tifa. Its interesting that the answer with the highest points is: "Probably, seems like something I'd do" (since its a CA interaction).
 
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Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
You have to be very precise when commanding and sinking ships, after all.

The difference between A2 and B3 is the difference between victory and defeat after all.

Moreso now than ever, what with the people apparently wanting the Highwind sequence but with Aerith while also denying anything romantic about the version that already exists.

Contradiction baked into an argument does not make a good argument. It's bad and they should feel bad.

Unfathomable is her power.

It is I deed without fathom.

Especially not when the monkeys in question are named "Summer and Winter."

Yep.

That and our love for small animals.

Indeed, my cats know I'm not 100% a dick. Sometimes that's enough.

Wish we weren't in this case, but c'est la vie.

Life is cruel, treats us unfairly.

Better give it a hat just to make sure.

Hats make everything better.

Capsule Corp. They're into everything and everywhere.

I guess the Battle Simulator was a success. Gotta get that interuniversal revenue stream up.

Hell of their own making etc. etc.

That's how I embody Sloth, letting people make their own Hell while I nap.

Also remember consideration is required for a contact to be enforceable, but you still have to fight it in court.

You might be at the rap but you won't be at the ride.

Ad Hominems, that's another. Can't tell you how many times I've had my personage insulted as if it had any bearing on the quality of the argument I presented. Plenty of them were absolute shit at that.

Oh yes, good old Ad Hominem. Honestly that was my favorite back in the day, it said "let's give up the pretence of an actual debate and just insult each other." For a dishonest debate tactics, it could almost be refreshingly honest in its own way.

Technically, this is not necessarily true. A sufficiently stupid person will throw the average off of a 50/50 split ever so slightly. But broadly speaking, yep.

The most Carlin move of all, you just anti-ed a Carlin bit with logic :awesome: It's just what George woulda done.

Pre-empting Barret, don't forget.

The best.

This is a problem I have with a lot of the CA arguments as well as a lot of the characterization of Cloud post FFVII. I think it lacks thematic congruency. The best Cloud, imo, is the one who isn't captain america as you put it. In my opinion Cloud should never be Zack, I think the idea of Cloud not being special was core to the impact of his story in the original, and the more the games portray him as "actually, he was always amazing" the less special that story is. I want Cloud to win because he has friends and because of his bonds with them, not because he's simply "him".

Cap is honestly the wrong brush to paint Cloud with. Cap was a sickly small man with the heart of a hero. The Super Soldier program just made the body capable of matching the heart. And he was chosen for the project for that very reason.

By contrast, Cloud had the physical potential for great things from the start, but not the heart. He chose to pursue becoming SOLDIER for selfish reasons, to be good enough for the gurl he loves. And he was rejected for lacking the force of will to stay himself.

Cloud is "just a guy" in the sense that he's very much the Unchosen. He stumbled, failed, and derped his way to being the hero. It was never a role that was chosen for him.

As for being Zack? No, he should not be Zack. There can be only one Chad Puppy. But ... well Cloud killed Sephiroth after Sephiroth ruined Zack's shit so :awesome:

One of my favorite things about the OG was that Sephiroth essentially just went "who tf are you when you first meet him again (jenova) onboard the boat.

I enjoyed that too the first time. The narrative expanded, and now we just have to accept that Sephy is fucking with our boy there.

Yeah, I absolutely DESPISE the LTD by now. IMO, saying "the story is whatever you want it to be" is the same as saying "there is no story". All the LTD is doing is lessening the developers ability to tell the story as clear, impactful, and focused as possible.

The LTD is indeed silly and pointless. It's a war fought long after it was won. The final shot of the real battle was fired in 97, everything since us some silly shadow war fought with bad faith. The devs may have felt locked in by the nature of remakes, but they really should grab it's potential absence from Part 3 by the horns and ride.

If sitting in a distance is a romantic trope, then everything is. And indeed, everything can be, you have to look at it in the context of the characters and situations. For Cloud, and the context of him being in love with Tifa, him being continuously adverse to closeness with Aerith is NOT a good sign. Maybe in a different story where the new girl slowly steals the heart of the guy away from the girl he's always loved, but there are a bunch of reasons why this story is NOT that. Which is obvious in about every scene.

:monster: This.

Yes, it is simply annoying to me that I can't talk about Cloud and Tifa without adding in caveats for what I essentially see as some conspiracy theory that everything we know about FFVII is wrong and Cloud actually ends up with Aerith.

Have you hit up the Cloti Club here on TLS? Be nice to encourage posting outside the LTD around here.

Yeah, it was really a nothing burger, Cloud assaults Tifa in her sleep, as happens in about a billion doujinshi that no one complains about. But because this comic set a more serious tone it's apparently unacceptable, because we can't have serious discussions or stories about dark subject matter apparently. This is a classic "if you don't like it, don't read it" situation, but Cleriths tried using it to prove Clotis are evil because they defended this persons freedom of speech or something.

Again, that's bad and they should feel bad. Shame these people for their weird second hand Ad Hominem bullshit.

Riley is the great unifier in the Buffy ship wars because no one gives a fuck about him :monster:

I cared enough to pity him. Poor bastard, not mysterious and dark enough to hang with Angel, not cool and funny enough to hang with Spike. Whole deal was just sad. I salute you getting the fuck out of Sunnydale, Captain Cardboard.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
To add to the same story point (Cloud and Tifa's relationship) being brought up --

It seems Rebirth continues to address this indirectly through other characters. These are 2 examples that come to mind (there may be more but I have not looked deeply into it)

1. Yuffie GS date - Yuffie talks about Tifa having a crush on Cloud and asks Cloud if he did. When Yuffie says that Tifa probably forgot about Cloud after moving to Midgar, Cloud seems to frown and be bothered by it.
2. Aerith Water Tower convo at Nibelheim - Aerith calls out Cloud potentially using the tower as a lookout spot to Tifa. Its interesting that the answer with the highest points is: "Probably, seems like something I'd do" (since its a CA interaction).
Yes Yuffie actually brings this up multiple times
With the naughty thoughts, which once again Cloud does not deny or confirm
with the Tifa can whip him back into shape type comment
Clouds recalling the flashback starts once again with Tifa and Clouds feelings with a scene you have to watch
him pining over her at the water tower. Now i think about it both games have had this plot point be shown at
the start of each game. With part 3 this will probably be the northern crater your opinion is the only one that matters.
We even had Cloud say he was nervous when he learned she was the guide. So both games have started with this plot
point but not explained it fully each time just hinted interesting...
even in wall market in Remake, we have Andrea say you find what you were looking for hold on and never let it go,
in which we know the context was Tifa since thats who Cloud was looking for when Andrea helped him get into the mansion.
Even Marle saying be good to her. Theres so much about their relationship that is brought up in this trilogy,
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
The difference between A2 and B3 is the difference between victory and defeat after all.
I prefer A2 and 2B, but that's just me.

Contradiction baked into an argument does not make a good argument. It's bad and they should feel bad.
They should indeed. As should repeating a lie from over a decade ago, like "the reunion files Koibito quote was just describing Tifa's personality" which someone tried to pull on me today.

It is I deed without fathom.
Surface level, even.

Indeed, my cats know I'm not 100% a dick. Sometimes that's enough.
Likewise. Plus my wife.

Life is cruel, treats us unfairly.
Life never promised to be fair. Just life.

Hats make everything better.
Hats on the explosives, on the bullets, on the fire somehow!

I guess the Battle Simulator was a success. Gotta get that interuniversal revenue stream up.
I imagine Capsule Corps board meetings go something like "Doctor Briefs and/or his daughter have just invented fifteen paradigm changing devices this morning alone. How the fuck do we profit off of these safely enough that we don't explode ourselves in the process"

That's how I embody Sloth, letting people make their own Hell while I nap.
People are very good at that.

Oh yes, good old Ad Hominem. Honestly that was my favorite back in the day, it said "let's give up the pretence of an actual debate and just insult each other." For a dishonest debate tactics, it could almost be refreshingly honest in its own way.
Of course, simply insulting someone isn't an Ad Hominem. Insulting someone to discredit their argument or in lieu of making one, that's an Ad Hom. I can call a fuckface a moron and then explain why his argument is shit so long as his fuckacery has nothing to do with the argument and I explain how he is a moron.

The most Carlin move of all, you just anti-ed a Carlin bit with logic :awesome: It's just what George woulda done.
I do, if not my best, at least better than average.

Cap is honestly the wrong brush to paint Cloud with. Cap was a sickly small man with the heart of a hero. The Super Soldier program just made the body capable of matching the heart. And he was chosen for the project for that very reason.

By contrast, Cloud had the physical potential for great things from the start, but not the heart. He chose to pursue becoming SOLDIER for selfish reasons, to be good enough for the gurl he loves. And he was rejected for lacking the force of will to stay himself.

Cloud is "just a guy" in the sense that he's very much the Unchosen. He stumbled, failed, and derped his way to being the hero. It was never a role that was chosen for him.

As for being Zack? No, he should not be Zack. There can be only one Chad Puppy. But ... well Cloud killed Sephiroth after Sephiroth ruined Zack's shit so :awesome:
Cloud is very Peter Parker, in that he's definitely very petty at first but grows and becomes a better person. FF7 and the SOLDIER delusion is sort of his Black Suit arc.
His and Tifa's relationship is pure Scott and Jean, though.

I cared enough to pity him. Poor bastard, not mysterious and dark enough to hang with Angel, not cool and funny enough to hang with Spike. Whole deal was just sad. I salute you getting the fuck out of Sunnydale, Captain Cardboard.
He also had the misfortune of leaving and the show quality improving dramatically. If you pay attention, Aside from the first half length season, 5 is the only season that really goes full tilt with the finale villain and that storyline right from the start.

Yes Yuffie actually brings this up multiple times
With the naughty thoughts, which once again Cloud does not deny or confirm
Well, he 'confirms' in that he has a definite reaction to Yuffie's comments.

But yes, the game is making sure to seed even more hints throughout the game because the devs absolutely want you to get the fucking point in the lifestream and highwind scenes this time.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
Yes Yuffie actually brings this up multiple times
With the naughty thoughts, which once again Cloud does not deny or confirm
with the Tifa can whip him back into shape type comment
Clouds recalling the flashback starts once again with Tifa and Clouds feelings with a scene you have to watch
him pining over her at the water tower. Now i think about it both games have had this plot point be shown at
the start of each game. With part 3 this will probably be the northern crater your opinion is the only one that matters.
We even had Cloud say he was nervous when he learned she was the guide. So both games have started with this plot
point but not explained it fully each time just hinted interesting...
even in wall market in Remake, we have Andrea say you find what you were looking for hold on and never let it go,
in which we know the context was Tifa since thats who Cloud was looking for when Andrea helped him get into the mansion.
Even Marle saying be good to her. Theres so much about their relationship that is brought up in this trilogy,
I think the water tower is constantly referenced because it represents the crux of Cloud's hero journey.

It is also symbolic of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa. For Tifa, this is the place where she realizes her affection for Cloud. For Cloud, this is the place he invites Tifa to tell her he is leaving to become SOLDIER. A goal he set out so he could be a special person to Tifa.

On the surface, the water tower scene seems like an innocent promise shared between two childhood friends. However, the truth of what it actually represents is locked inside Cloud's "tender memories" that get resolved in the LS sequence with Tifa.

The remake trilogy seems to be setting up for that because Cloud's feelings for Tifa are confirmed to not only Tifa but to the player during part of his resolution. I believe one of the devs said that they added more CT scenes to show their relationship and make it clear. Its apparent via repetitive water tower references, characters teasing Cloud about Tifa and how the the relationship of CT is explored/developed. Cloud has certain mannerisms, facial expressions and nuances in his voice that are only unique to Tifa.
 
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eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
Cap was a sickly small man with the heart of a hero. The Super Soldier program just made the body capable of matching the heart. And he was chosen for the project for that very reason.

"𝐖𝐡𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐫 𝐡𝐚𝐩𝐩𝐞𝐧𝐬 𝐭𝐨𝐦𝐨𝐫𝐫𝐨𝐰, 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐲 𝐰𝐡𝐨 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐚𝐫𝐞.
𝐍𝐨𝐭 𝐚 𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐟𝐞𝐜𝐭 SOLDIER, 𝐛𝐮𝐭 𝐚 𝐠𝐨𝐨𝐝 𝐦𝐚𝐧."
--𝘈𝘣𝘳𝘢𝘩𝘢𝘮 𝘌𝘳𝘴𝘬𝘪𝘯𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘚𝘵𝘦𝘷𝘦 𝘙𝘰𝘨𝘦𝘳𝘴, 𝘊𝘢𝘱𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘈𝘮𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘢 (2011)

He is scientist but not Hojo lol,
I could view this as Glenn saying to Sephiroth and Angeal mentoring Zack.
Cloud? His mom and Tifa should tell him this.

Cloud is very Peter Parker, in that he's definitely very petty at first but grows and becomes a better person.
Does this make Zack Uncle Ben? :awesome:
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
"𝐖𝐡𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐫 𝐡𝐚𝐩𝐩𝐞𝐧𝐬 𝐭𝐨𝐦𝐨𝐫𝐫𝐨𝐰, 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐲 𝐰𝐡𝐨 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐚𝐫𝐞.
𝐍𝐨𝐭 𝐚 𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐟𝐞𝐜𝐭 SOLDIER, 𝐛𝐮𝐭 𝐚 𝐠𝐨𝐨𝐝 𝐦𝐚𝐧."
--𝘈𝘣𝘳𝘢𝘩𝘢𝘮 𝘌𝘳𝘴𝘬𝘪𝘯𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘚𝘵𝘦𝘷𝘦 𝘙𝘰𝘨𝘦𝘳𝘴, 𝘊𝘢𝘱𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘈𝘮𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘢 (2011)

He is scientist but not Hojo lol,
I could view this as Glenn saying to Sephiroth and Angeal mentoring Zack.
Cloud? His mom and Tifa should tell him this.


Does this make Zack Uncle Ben? :awesome:
Yes. And Aerith is Merissa Tomei Aunt May.
Zack in his own story is very much Cap, though.
 
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