SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[pxl_pushr]

SE: when we say remake, we mean remaking everything, including every argument you’ve experienced for the past 30 years. Nothing is off the table

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm not really with you everytime you talk about this. I don't like this idea of a "superhuman" hiding beneath the surface. I think it ruins his character. This is exactly why I don't want Glenn to be his father. I don't want there to be a predestined connection.

Just because when Tifa fell, he escaped with just a scraped knee, doesn't mean he's powerful from the start. Maybe he was just lucky he didn't land on his head like she did.

Likewise, the fact that he can kill the world's greatest SOLDIER loses all value for me if "well actually he's a genius, he just needed to believe it".

On the one hand, he should be able to back up his initial kill with skill on the rematch, but also we do see, speaking of that initial fight, that he can just plain withstand being speared by Sephiroth and keep trucking, even before being SOLDIER'd

It also goes against the subtext of Tifa, who's in love with him precisely because he's not unapproachable, he's just another boy.

It can go both ways. Mary Jane falls in love with Peter Parker, not Spider-Man, etc.

We're talking about alien cells in his body that make him forget he has motion sickness. Rather speaking as changing a person physically for me.

Spoiler: Jenova Cells not making them Captain America at all

So yeah. I don't like it. Not saying you're wrong (and maybe I didn't understand your point) but it seems to me it is also based on your interpretation. So i'll keep with mine for the time being I think.

We're talking personality WRT to Zack and Cap.

I didn't even remember it was a thing!!!

Forget the idea of heaven or hell being real or not, we're already in the ninth circle.

SE: when we say remake, we mean remaking everything, including every argument you’ve experienced for the past 30 years. Nothing is off the table

It's also coming from someone who's going "It's all up to interpretation" while also saying "If CA wasn't the canon pairing, then why the non optional date and hand holding?" in the same response, so yes, we're recycling "It's all optional (but really it's Aerith) again too.

 

[abzy1200]

Saw a guy on Twitter yesterday say that "if Cloti was canon, Cloud and Tifa would share a bed, and Denzel would be their biological son"

Then proceeded to say that they can't understand why people can't wrap their heads around the concept that there is no true pairing in Final Fantasy 7 because of these reasons.

...sigh. If this isn't a testament to what neutrals (and Cleriths) think about the story and how they don't have an ounce of literacy...I don't know what is.

EDIT: Guys, guess what? Zack is just Crisis Core fanservice, there goes all of our arguments/points regarding Zerith coming true...

 

[ViolaaFox]

Kind of sad when some people seem to see it as worth less that Denzel was adopted by Cloud and Tifa. As if they couldn't love him like a biological son.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It's also coming from someone who's going "It's all up to interpretation" while also saying "If CA wasn't the canon pairing, then why the non optional date and hand holding?" in the same response, so yes, we're recycling "It's all optional (but really it's Aerith) again too.

"FF7 would work platonically but Cloud had a crush on Sephiroth and was in love with Aerith, and Tifa is kind of pointless to the overall story." Or maybe even "If SE can confirm a chocobo couple, they can confirm CT so obviously they choose not to."

That last one is honestly. What kind of fictional pairing ever has gotten a very specific press conference just for the authors to declare their canonicity, lol? I mean, if it's not enough that they're living together and raising kids like any shounen couple post-time skip then what exactly do people want?

 

[Eerie]

Kind of sad when some people seem to see it as worth less that Denzel was adopted by Cloud and Tifa. As if they couldn't love him like a biological son.

Denzel being adopted by Cloud and Tifa works remarkably well in the themes of FFVII: the found family, the fact that there are already adopted characters (Marlene, Aerith), the theme of salvation, etc. It all fits very well.

And when I see people demeaning CT because Denzel is adopted (some even deny Tifa is his mother), I can't help but think these people must be really shitty IRL if they think an adopted kid is less than a biological one.

 

[ViolaaFox]

"FF7 would work platonically but Cloud had a crush on Sephiroth and was in love with Aerith, and Tifa is kind of pointless to the overall story." Or maybe even "If SE can confirm a chocobo couple, they can confirm CT so obviously they choose not to."

That last one is honestly. What kind of fictional pairing ever has gotten a very specific press conference just for the authors to declare their canonicity, lol? I mean, if it's not enough that they're living together and raising kids like any shounen couple post-time skip then what exactly do people want?

It's extra amusing when I think about FFX. Where Yuna says "I love you", at least in the English dub, and Tidus doesn't respond literally. Nevertheless, nobody questions the fact that Tidus loved Yuna and that they were the pairing of FFX.

Meanwhile, Cloud and Tifa live together and have a family, but there are still discussions. I understand that there may have been some confusion in the OG during some parts, but the endgame is obvious.

 

[ViolaaFox]

Denzel being adopted by Cloud and Tifa works remarkably well in the themes of FFVII: the found family, the fact that there are already adopted characters (Marlene, Aerith), the theme of salvation, etc. It all fits very well.

And when I see people demeaning CT because Denzel is adopted (some even deny Tifa is his mother), I can't help but think these people must be really shitty IRL if they think an adopted kid is less than a biological one.

Yeah, it is indeed sad that parts of the fandom make fun of their connection or even deny it. I think it shows a certain strength of character that CT was willing to help a child who needed someone and even gave Denzel a loving family.

 

[Yoru]

On the one hand, he should be able to back up his initial kill with skill on the rematch, but also we do see, speaking of that initial fight, that he can just plain withstand being speared by Sephiroth and keep trucking, even before being SOLDIER'd


It can go both ways. Mary Jane falls in love with Peter Parker, not Spider-Man, etc.


We're talking personality WRT to Zack and Cap.

And that's my point.

I think it's a much more powerful message to tell us that he managed to stand up to the greatest SOLDIER in history through his will and his rage at having lost his family and Tifa than to learn later that "well, he's always been exceptional".

For me, giving Cloud this sort of chosen one status breaks the whole message. Basically, you won't get anywhere in life if the stars and the planet haven't chosen you. Bad luck. You can always sell sandwiches.

As for Tifa, we've seen with ToTP that she idolizes him for most of her life, but it's on the night of their promise that she realizes she's in love because he's a nobody, just another boy. Again, implying this idea of being exceptional from the start bothers me and contradicts her feelings.

To finish with the Captain America comparison. SOLDIERS are beings whose human abilities have been enhanced by "ingesting" a special substance. But it doesn't work all the time. People who aren't strong enough inside to resist Jenova's calls become black coats. So the comparison isn't all that absurd. These are people who wanted power and got it in exchange for a very strong will.

 

[Ryushikaze]

"FF7 would work platonically but Cloud had a crush on Sephiroth and was in love with Aerith, and Tifa is kind of pointless to the overall story." Or maybe even "If SE can confirm a chocobo couple, they can confirm CT so obviously they choose not to."

That last one is honestly. What kind of fictional pairing ever has gotten a very specific press conference just for the authors to declare their canonicity, lol? I mean, if it's not enough that they're living together and raising kids like any shounen couple post-time skip then what exactly do people want?

Oh, that's simple. They want Aerith to win.
If you mean "what will convince them" at this point? Probably nothing.

Denzel being adopted by Cloud and Tifa works remarkably well in the themes of FFVII: the found family, the fact that there are already adopted characters (Marlene, Aerith), the theme of salvation, etc. It all fits very well.

And when I see people demeaning CT because Denzel is adopted (some even deny Tifa is his mother), I can't help but think these people must be really shitty IRL if they think an adopted kid is less than a biological one.

It's not that an adopted child is less than a biological one, it's that Tifa is the inferior mother choice compared to Aerith.
The same people who deny Tifa's motherhood are the same people making pictures to "prove" Denzel and Marlene are Cloud and Aerith's kids.

While you should never ascribe malice to what incompetence will explain, at a certain point, malice is the most parsimonious explanation.

 

[Ryushikaze]

And that's my point.

I think it's a much more powerful message to tell us that he managed to stand up to the greatest SOLDIER in history through his will and his rage at having lost his family and Tifa than to learn later that "well, he's always been exceptional".

For me, giving Cloud this sort of chosen one status breaks the whole message. Basically, you won't get anywhere in life if the stars and the planet haven't chosen you. Bad luck. You can always sell sandwiches.

As for Tifa, we've seen with ToTP that she idolizes him for most of her life, but it's on the night of their promise that she realizes she's in love because he's a nobody, just another boy. Again, implying this idea of being exceptional from the start bothers me and contradicts her feelings.

At no point do I want to suggest Cloud is a chosen one. Even in a world where he was officially preternaturally durable as a child, I would want it to be due to stuff he did, like his choice to spend most of his time running around in the woods and getting a boost from the mako in the area, rather than because fate ordained it so.

To finish with the Captain America comparison. SOLDIERS are beings whose human abilities have been enhanced by "ingesting" a special substance. But it doesn't work all the time. People who aren't strong enough inside to resist Jenova's calls become black coats. So the comparison isn't all that absurd. These are people who wanted power and got it in exchange for a very strong will.

Again, the comparison to Zack and Cap isn't about the super soldier serum (Though on that front the attempts to recreate the serum often go very poorly and are more akin to your average SOLDIER) but regarding similarities in the personalities of Steve and Zack.

 

[Yoru]

Again, the comparison to Zack and Cap isn't about the super soldier serum (Though on that front the attempts to recreate the serum often go very poorly and are more akin to your average SOLDIER) but regarding similarities in the personalities of Steve and Zack.

Of course. I'm just saying why I can sometimes describe Cloud as Captain America. Because it's not a literal comparison. It's just that in-universe, for the people around him, he's a "Captain America" in the Super human sense, not in the symbol sense.

The team needs him, and that's why even when he starts to sink deep, they keep counting on him. Because the guy is literally a "Captain America", a guy who can jump like a guepard, hold a sword weighing a ton, transform the aim of his assailants into that of a stormtrooper ( )

 

[Maidenofwar]

I forgot if this was discussed, memory like a fish, or is in game since it's been a while but does Tifa think Zack's dead, does she remember Zack, I wonder if she told Aerith everything she could remember.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I think you mean Chekov's gun. And yeah, Chekov's gun is essentially why Clerith is doomed. Because all the Chekov's guns that have been set-up between Cloud and Tifa point to a reveal of their enduring mutual love. While every Chekov's gun with Aerith points towards it not being real.

This time around it's more like Chekov's Firing Squad. Rebirth just took a whole game to disassemble, clean, reassemble and load all of them guns. Next game we ready, aim, and fire

I prefer A2 and 2B, but that's just me.

Sadly they are the wrong fish and died. For science. Thanks, Jackass.

They should indeed. As should repeating a lie from over a decade ago, like "the reunion files Koibito quote was just describing Tifa's personality" which someone tried to pull on me today.

Such is life when you talk to extremist shippers.

Surface level, even.

No depth at all.

Likewise. Plus my wife.

Always a plus.

Life never promised to be fair. Just life.

You recall what I always said? Life's not fair, but people can be.

Hats on the explosives, on the bullets, on the fire somehow!

I mean we have hats that are forever on fire, let's get a hat that is forever on the fire. Glorious fire hat.

I imagine Capsule Corps board meetings go something like "Doctor Briefs and/or his daughter have just invented fifteen paradigm changing devices this morning alone. How the fuck do we profit off of these safely enough that we don't explode ourselves in the process"

That tracks. Also approving the budget increases for advanced laser droids and high gravity chambers no matter what, lest we annoy Dr. Briefs' son-in-law.

People are very good at that.

My job is sometimes very easy.

Of course, simply insulting someone isn't an Ad Hominem. Insulting someone to discredit their argument or in lieu of making one, that's an Ad Hom. I can call a fuckface a moron and then explain why his argument is shit so long as his fuckacery has nothing to do with the argument and I explain how he is a moron.

Absolutely. But once a full blown Ad Hominem occurs, all semblance of the opposition pretending to have an actual debate goes out the window. Plus it makes delivering real facts with a side of fuckfacery more satisfying.

I do, if not my best, at least better than average.

Always be arriving.

Cloud is very Peter Parker, in that he's definitely very petty at first but grows and becomes a better person.

And just like my boy Parker, his eventual sense of responsibility is both his finest trait and his most crippling flaw.

FF7 and the SOLDIER delusion is sort of his Black Suit arc.

It's funny his outfit gets even more black after that.

His and Tifa's relationship is pure Scott and Jean, though.

I can see it, if Scott/Jean had ended a bit sooner.

He also had the misfortune of leaving and the show quality improving dramatically. If you pay attention, Aside from the first half length season, 5 is the only season that really goes full tilt with the finale villain and that storyline right from the start.

I miss Glorificus sometimes. She sassy as fuck, I like her.

But yes, the game is making sure to seed even more hints throughout the game because the devs absolutely want you to get the fucking point in the lifestream and highwind scenes this time.

Firing Squad. It's coming.

I'm not really with you everytime you talk about this. I don't like this idea of a "superhuman" hiding beneath the surface. I think it ruins his character. This is exactly why I don't want Glenn to be his father. I don't want there to be a predestined connection.

Oh agreed, no famous dad please. No revelation that his mom was a goddess or something.

But, "superhuman hiding beneath the surface?" That's just what Cloud is. At minimum, when he's stressed enough he's greatly more durable than other folks. Only when his spirit energy is in full Limit Break style surge, perhaps, but it's there.

Just because when Tifa fell, he escaped with just a scraped knee, doesn't mean he's powerful from the start. Maybe he was just lucky he didn't land on his head like she did.

In a vacuum, sure we could say this. But it's not a vacuum, and those skinned knees left funny scars. "Foresh" on the left and "adowing" on the right

Likewise, the fact that he can kill the world's greatest SOLDIER loses all value for me if "well actually he's a genius, he just needed to believe it".

Why does it invalidate his victory for him to have enormous, infrequently tapped potential? I genuinely don't get it, and I'd like to see where you're coming from. But to me, the world's greatest SOLDIER getting picked by a for reals normal kid cause he was just that mad and determined would undermine our main villain tremendously.

Honestly, Sephiroth had just playfully handed Zack his own ass on a platter. He underestimated Cloud, thinking he's just some regular Shinra grunt from the sticks. He was wrong.

It also goes against the subtext of Tifa, who's in love with him precisely because he's not unapproachable, he's just another boy.

Tifa doesn't like SOLDIER or Cloud's delulu SOLDIER personality. She doesn't seem turned off by him being able to heft and swing a slab of metal bigger than himself, jump stupid high, and survive stupidly lethal situations though. Cause, y'know, the normal approachable guy thing is personality based. There was no reason for her to think Cloud was tougher than anyone else at the time, what with her not even remembering the fall and such.

We're talking about alien cells in his body that make him forget he has motion sickness. Rather speaking as changing a person physically for me.

I never said it didn't change him. Although remember, as soon as Cloud recovers himself (thanks Tifa!) the motion sickness comes back. It was suppressed, never actually cured.

Still, Cloud is undeniably stronger after going through the Jenova treatment than before. If nothing else, he can now do his tank and spank maneuver reliably, not just when worst comes to worst.

So yeah. I don't like it. Not saying you're wrong (and maybe I didn't understand your point) but it seems to me it is also based on your interpretation. So i'll keep with mine for the time being I think.

If I'm being unclear do let me know, I haven't slept properly in... Um... A week? Two? Between the sleep paralysis nightmares and outright insomnia I've lost track. So things that seem crystal to me could be mud for all I know

For now I'll just say, Cloud is a normal mountain bit with a chip on his shoulder personality-wise. If not for extreme circumstances he'd maybe have never learned he was anything but. Physically, he has latent potential beyond most folk.

Maybe it was built up by fucking around alone in the monster infested mountains. Maybe it's the residual Mako around Mt. Nibel. Maybe he just has more spirit energy than most people as a quirk of his birth. Probably it's a bit of all that. But wherever it comes from, it leads to skinned knees, dead Ravens, and surprise dead Sephiroth.

Forget the idea of heaven or hell being real or not, we're already in the ninth circle.

You're not supposed to know that for another 2,000,000 years, but oh well

 

[Eerie]

I forgot if this was discussed, memory like a fish, or is in game since it's been a while but does Tifa think Zack's dead, does she remember Zack, I wonder if she told Aerith everything she could remember.

She can’t know Zack is dead and she probably told Aerith everything she knew once she connected the dots, seeing their Gongaga exchange.

 

[ViolaaFox]

I forgot if this was discussed, memory like a fish, or is in game since it's been a while but does Tifa think Zack's dead, does she remember Zack, I wonder if she told Aerith everything she could remember.

I assume that they'll handle it pretty much as in OG where Tifa first doubts her memories. Her reaction in Rebirth to Cloud telling her how Zack died isn't so clear either. It may be that she already suspects that Cloud is misremembering that or she still thinks that she herself is wrong.

 

[Yoru]

Why does it invalidate his victory for him to have enormous, infrequently tapped potential? I genuinely don't get it, and I'd like to see where you're coming from. But to me, the world's greatest SOLDIER getting picked by a for reals normal kid cause he was just that mad and determined would undermine our main villain tremendously.

Honestly, Sephiroth had just playfully handed Zack his own ass on a platter. He underestimated Cloud, thinking he's just some regular Shinra grunt from the sticks. He was wrong.

People tend to forget that he attacks Sephiroth from behind. And I think that's a pretty strong message. Yes, he underestimated Cloud. Precisely because in his new God status, which he seems to have attained, he's come to look down on everyone. To him, they're insects. He doesn't even calculate Cloud. He worships his mommy and doesn't even bother to accept the presence of the little blond boy in the room.

Big mistake.

And it's this message that's lost with this idea of a Cloud with unlimited but hidden potential.

I prefer the story of the achilles heel.

Sephiroth thought he was immortal. He wasn't. He was defeated by a simple human.

And by the time Cloud has the resources to lift him and send him in direction of Mako Express to the North Crater, he's already diminished. You can see he's having trouble walking.

At least that's always been my interpretation.

Maybe I'll be wrong in the end.

 

[Yoru]

I forgot if this was discussed, memory like a fish, or is in game since it's been a while but does Tifa think Zack's dead, does she remember Zack, I wonder if she told Aerith everything she could remember.

Like the others have pointed out, we don't really know.

What we know is that Tifa is doubting her own memories. From her POV Cloud was not there, but at the same time he knows a lot of things he shouldn't. (the scene in kalm where the girl are talking in their beds)

With the Gongaga scene, we know that the girls talked about Zack. Aerith tells her about the fact that his parents haven't received any letters or news, so it's that Tifa knows about Aerith's research. She told her about him. What's more, the way Tifa takes her hands to reassure her suggests that she has told her that Zack was in Nibelheim. What they're trying to do now is connect the dots and find out where he might have gone next and why Cloud has his godamn sword.

 

[pxl_pushr]

People tend to forget that he attacks Sephiroth from behind. And I think that's a pretty strong message. Yes, he underestimated Cloud. Precisely because in his new God status, which he seems to have attained, he's come to look down on everyone. To him, they're insects. He doesn't even calculate Cloud. He worships his mommy and doesn't even bother to accept the presence of the little blond boy in the room.

Big mistake.

And it's this message that's lost with this idea of a Cloud with unlimited but hidden potential.

I prefer the story of the achilles heel.

Sephiroth thought he was immortal. He wasn't. He was defeated by a simple human.

And by the time Cloud has the resources to lift him and send him in direction of Mako Express to the North Crater, he's already diminished. You can see he's having trouble walking.

At least that's always been my interpretation.

Maybe I'll be wrong in the end.

I don’t exactly mind a reveal that Cloud has some kind of potential/unique about him. I mean, Tifa is allowed to be a gifted martial artist but that doesn’t diminish the hard work she had to put in to learn and develop her own style of fighting.

Seems to me that people having some kind of capability if it’s properly refined isn’t too unusual in the setting, and it’s kind of par for the course that Cloud had something he could’ve cultivated into capability if he hadn’t been laser focused on SOLDIER being his ticket to strength.

Feeds into the idea that he gets in his own way more than anything external. Could it make him go toe-to-toe with Sephiroth without him getting some Jenova himself? Probably not, but again, other people in the party become skilled fighters despite being otherwise average and it doesn’t really take away from them.

But don’t let this Glenn thing be the answer lol I really do not want that, even if I can see it written plain as day in front of me.

 

[Stiggie]

People tend to forget that he attacks Sephiroth from behind. And I think that's a pretty strong message. Yes, he underestimated Cloud. Precisely because in his new God status, which he seems to have attained, he's come to look down on everyone. To him, they're insects. He doesn't even calculate Cloud. He worships his mommy and doesn't even bother to accept the presence of the little blond boy in the room.

Big mistake.

And it's this message that's lost with this idea of a Cloud with unlimited but hidden potential.

I prefer the story of the achilles heel.

Sephiroth thought he was immortal. He wasn't. He was defeated by a simple human.

And by the time Cloud has the resources to lift him and send him in direction of Mako Express to the North Crater, he's already diminished. You can see he's having trouble walking.

At least that's always been my interpretation.

Maybe I'll be wrong in the end.

This is how I interpret it and how I like it.
I always harp on about thematic congruency, because I think it's important, and I think a Cloud that isn't special is more thematically congruent with just about every other aspect of the story when compared to one that was really kinda a badass all along. And being congruent is important to give a story identity.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I forgot if this was discussed, memory like a fish, or is in game since it's been a while but does Tifa think Zack's dead, does she remember Zack, I wonder if she told Aerith everything she could remember.

Tifa has no knowledge of Zack's death or survival outside of Cloud. The last she ever saw him, he was alive, and the next thing she reliably knew was waking up in an entirely different geographic region after life saving surgery.

Sadly they are the wrong fish and died. For science. Thanks, Jackass.

I'm Jackass and this is Jackass.

Such is life when you talk to extremist shippers.

I mean, if I could actually jump back in time 15 years I might do it. Not to stay, just to make a few timely investments.

No depth at all.

Much like the extremist shipper's knowledge of anything, when you get right down to it.

Always a plus.

Indeed, indeed.

You recall what I always said? Life's not fair, but people can be.

People are what make fairness in life.

I mean we have hats that are forever on fire, let's get a hat that is forever on the fire. Glorious fire hat.

A hat to keep the fire warm and cozy!

That tracks. Also approving the budget increases for advanced laser droids and high gravity chambers no matter what, lest we annoy Dr. Briefs' son-in-law.

All programmed to hunt him down and try and kill him, of course. It's considered a line item expense under the logistics and operations budget.

My job is sometimes very easy.

If someone makes your job easier, let them.

Absolutely. But once a full blown Ad Hominem occurs, all semblance of the opposition pretending to have an actual debate goes out the window. Plus it makes delivering real facts with a side of fuckfacery more satisfying.

Oh it absolutely does.

Always be arriving.

A good way to put it.

And just like my boy Parker, his eventual sense of responsibility is both his finest trait and his most crippling flaw.

Here I thought Pete's flaw was editorial, with the responsibility coming in a very distant second.

It's funny his outfit gets even more black after that.

We can call it his purple suit arc, then.

I can see it, if Scott/Jean had ended a bit sooner.

I was referring to their early depictions of blatantly obvious pining that everyone could see but them, but yes, the nonsense SJ have gone through because of the need to have the next big twist is insane.

I miss Glorificus sometimes. She sassy as fuck, I like her.

She was enjoyably evil and really tied her season together, neither of which can be said of the trio (or 6's actual final antagonist) or of Season 7 as a whole.

Firing Squad. It's coming.

This is chekov's artillery line at this point.

 

[Yoru]

I don’t exactly mind a reveal that Cloud has some kind of potential/unique about him. I mean, Tifa is allowed to be a gifted martial artist but that doesn’t diminish the hard work she had to put in to learn and develop her own style of fighting.

Seems to me that people having some kind of capability if it’s properly refined isn’t too unusual in the setting, and it’s kind of par for the course that Cloud had something he could’ve cultivated into capability if he hadn’t been laser focused on SOLDIER being his ticket to strength.

Feeds into the idea that he gets in his own way more than anything external. Could it make him go toe-to-toe with Sephiroth without him getting some Jenova himself? Probably not, but again, other people in the party become skilled fighters despite being otherwise average and it doesn’t really take away from them.

But don’t let this Glenn thing be the answer lol I really do not want that, even if I can see it written plain as day in front of me.

I'm not saying he must have no talent or gift. I'm saying I don't want a Neo or Anakin Skywalker. I don't want Cloud to be some sort of unique being, some sort of planet champion.

He's just a dude. He just wanted to protect Tifa when he was a kid. He just wanted to be strong.

And if it's a character that's stuck with me, it's that once the mask comes off, once the game reveals that he was never a Soldier, none of that matters in the end.

What matters is that he's decided to fight to protect those he loves. He did so by killing Sephiroth at the Nibel reactor. And he does it again at the end of the game.

You don't have to be special to do it.

It may be cheesy, but I find it much stronger than a simple "in fact, he was special all along".

 

[Sacky]

I have run into a "the Reunion files Koibito quote means her personality" argument in the wild. As of today.
This argument was debunked over a decade and a half ago.

Yep Reddit is just repeating all the old Toxic clerith takes in 2024

 

[pxl_pushr]

I'm not saying he must have no talent or gift. I'm saying I don't want a Neo or Anakin Skywalker. I don't want Cloud to be some sort of unique being, some sort of planet champion.

He's just a dude. He just wanted to protect Tifa when he was a kid. He just wanted to be strong.

And if it's a character that's stuck with me, it's that once the mask comes off, once the game reveals that he was never a Soldier, none of that matters in the end.

What matters is that he's decided to fight to protect those he loves. He did so by killing Sephiroth at the Nibel reactor. And he does it again at the end of the game.

You don't have to be special to do it.

It may be cheesy, but I find it much stronger than a simple "in fact, he was special all along".

Oh for sure, that’s why I don’t want some “Glenn is Cloud’s dad and he knocked up Claudia with a Jenova cell baby and that’s why Cloud is special” that would be ick.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yep Reddit is just repeating all the old Toxic clerith takes in 2024

Yep. Including the "Cloud says he WANTS to rejoin Aeris in the promised land at the end of the game" canard.
Is it just me, or are people who insist on calling her Aeris in this day and age especially kooky?