SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[abzy1200]

Regarding the OG atleast:

The problem with calling it a 'love triangle' is that while technically true, there's more to this situation than your average Love Triangle: Cloud making up a fake persona so that he didn't have to confront his insecurities and failures, which happened to be somewhat based on this girl's ex boyfriend, and this fake persona didn't allow Cloud to realise the full extent of his feelings for this other woman and in a shock reveal at the end of the story, Cloud shaped all of his aspirations, ambitions and life goals around being special for said other woman, and that on the other end of the spectrum this also causes all of Cloud's insecurities and reasons he made up the aforementioned false persona.

I doubt there's anything nearly this confusing (on a first read of the game) and specific in other media when a love triangle is incorporated. Usually it's more streamlined and simple than this, unless I'm wrong on that. This situation is unbelievably context heavy compared to others.

In short; Calling it a tove triangle is technically true, but it also leads to people having misconceptions of the one in ff7 because there's so much context not being included when simply calling it a love triangle. And when this context is included, said love triangle becomes no more.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It's actually two overlapping triangles of different types. First is a Bases to Point triangle, where there are two entities who canonically show interest in a third who can be decided, undecided, interested in both, disinterested in both, or even unaware the triangle is happening. That's the girls towards Cloud.

The other one is the Point to Bases type, where a single entitiy has feelings for two (or more, technically) entities and must decide between them. Again, the emotions of the bases here are irrelevant. This is Aerith deciding between Zack and Cloud.

For this to be a square, there would need to be romantic feelings of some sort flowing between Zack and Tifa in either direction, and that's just not the case, no matter what the shippers who want to get them out of the way with each other want to push.

Ah, I get your point but I still feel it would be easier to just call it square even though it's incorrect. XD

I doubt there's anything nearly this confusing (on a first read of the game) and specific in other media when a love triangle is incorporated. Usually it's more streamlined and simple than this, unless I'm wrong on that. This situation is unbelievably context heavy compared to others.

Not an exact equivalent but iirc, Kare Kano resolved its love triangle with "oh, his feelings for him were actually for the couple's unborn child all along". Which... was a thing.

 

[Yoru]

Regarding the OG atleast:

The problem with calling it a 'love triangle' is that while technically true, there's more to this situation than your average Love Triangle: Cloud making up a fake persona so that he didn't have to confront his insecurities and failures, which happened to be somewhat based on this girl's ex boyfriend, and this fake persona didn't allow Cloud to realise the full extent of his feelings for this other woman and in a shock reveal at the end of the story, Cloud shaped all of his aspirations, ambitions and life goals around being special for said other woman, and that on the other end of the spectrum this also causes all of Cloud's insecurities and reasons he made up the aforementioned false persona.

I doubt there's anything nearly this confusing (on a first read of the game) and specific in other media when a love triangle is incorporated. Usually it's more streamlined and simple than this, unless I'm wrong on that. This situation is unbelievably context heavy compared to others.

In short; Calling it a tove triangle is technically true, but it also leads to people having misconceptions of the one in ff7 because there's so much context not being included when simply calling it a love triangle. And when this context is included, said love triangle becomes no more.

That's why I don't think the "love triangle theory" really exists in the Remakes anymore. Not as much. Tifa is introduced much earlier, the way Cloud acts with her is also much more striking with voice acting and facial/body animations. From the comments we see here from the newcomers, I get the impression that the Cloti relationship is pretty obvious too.

We've clearly moved on from a plot twist in OG to a build-up in the Remakes.

 

[abzy1200]

Not an exact equivalent but iirc, Kare Kano resolved its love triangle with "oh, his feelings for him were actually for the couple's unborn child all along". Which... was a thing.

Am I crazy or does this make no sense whatsoever?

 

[Ryeleigh]

Am I crazy or does this make no sense whatsoever?

It happened in Twilight too and yeah, I don't get it?

 

[abzy1200]

That's why I don't think the "love triangle theory" really exists in the Remakes anymore. Not as much. Tifa is introduced much earlier, the way Cloud acts with her is also much more striking with voice acting and facial/body animation. From the comments we see here from the newcomers, I get the impression that the Cloti relationship is pretty obvious too.

We've clearly moved on from a plot twist in OG to a build-up in the Remakes.

Something I actually feel was kinda mean to Cleriths was that Cloud opens up to Tifa first instead of being a bit of an ass with her like in the OG. No longer does Cloud demand money and have to be reminded of the promise. He also agrees to go on a date with Tifa, a much more established one than the one Cloud agrees to with Aerith (who might not even know what she agreed to) since Tifa even asks Cloud what she should wear, and none of the suggestions you have are casual 'just hanging out' outfits iirc.

Something I felt Clerith did have in the OG was that Cloud does act nicer initially to Aerith than he does anyone else...unless I'm remembering wrong. But in Remake, Cloud opens up first to Tifa...not Aerith. Which I feel might be a part of Nojima's crusade to obliterate bad Clerith takes by trying to make it apparent that Cloud loved Tifa from the very start.

Soooo many Clerith moments from the OG were either altered or straight up removed, which is why I feel like Cloud also accepting to go on a date with Tifa and opening up to her first is especially mean since that was originally a "Clerith thing".

 

[Yoru]

Something I actually feel was kinda mean to Cleriths was that Cloud opens up to Tifa first instead of being a bit of an ass with her like in the OG. No longer does Cloud demand money and have to be reminded of the promise. He also agrees to go on a date with Tifa, a much more established one than the one Cloud agrees to with Aerith (who might not even know what she agreed to) since Tifa even asks Cloud what she should wear, and none of the suggestions you have are casual 'just hanging out' outfits iirc.

Something I felt Clerith did have in the OG was that Cloud does act nicer initially to Aerith than he does anyone else...unless I'm remembering wrong. But in Remake, Cloud opens up first to Tifa...not Aerith. Which I feel might be a part of Nojima's crusade to obliterate bad Clerith takes by trying to make it apparent that Cloud loved Tifa from the very start.

Soooo many Clerith moments from the OG were either altered or straight up removed, which is why I feel like Cloud also accepting to go on a date with Tifa and opening up to her first is especially mean since that was originally a "Clerith thing".

Given that you only have one CD to develop the relationship between Aerith and Cloud in OG, I think that yes, they must have artificially increased their compatibility as a couple (if you want it to be). We can find some proof of it with a dev itw (same one where they're talking about the draft of the under the highwind scene)

And it's also pretty clear to me that some of it was retconned to be given to Tifa. She's his confidante. 100%. It's even more blatant in Rebirth with chapter 9 where he's never been so exposed in front of anyone.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Something I actually feel was kinda mean to Cleriths was that Cloud opens up to Tifa first instead of being a bit of an ass with her like in the OG. No longer does Cloud demand money and have to be reminded of the promise. He also agrees to go on a date with Tifa, a much more established one than the one Cloud agrees to with Aerith (who might not even know what she agreed to) since Tifa even asks Cloud what she should wear, and none of the suggestions you have are casual 'just hanging out' outfits iirc.

Something I felt Clerith did have in the OG was that Cloud does act nicer initially to Aerith than he does anyone else...unless I'm remembering wrong. But in Remake, Cloud opens up first to Tifa...not Aerith. Which I feel might be a part of Nojima's crusade to obliterate bad Clerith takes by trying to make it apparent that Cloud loved Tifa from the very start.

Soooo many Clerith moments from the OG were either altered or straight up removed, which is why I feel like Cloud also accepting to go on a date with Tifa and opening up to her first is especially mean since that was originally a "Clerith thing".

I don’t really think the devs think in terms of shipping, but instead in terms of characters, their respective arcs, how those arcs intersect and bolster each other, and how to lovingly display these characters at their best and lowest points.

That’s what I think the love triangle between Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith has evolved into ( to various degrees of success to all parties involved ). Instead of a competition for the affections of Cloud, it’s the hesitant and angsty slow burn of Tifa and Cloud’s romance parallel to the ever growing closeness of Cloud and Aerith who is struggling with her own lingering feelings for someone she struggles to admit may very well be dead.

I don’t think any change to the various scenes are intentionally mean spirited, but I do think they’re deliberately being used beyond mere fanservice/shipping fuel to give depth to these characters. Does it always land? Ehhh tbf no, but maybe when the full picture is in front of us, weaker moments won’t feel so bad.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Something I actually feel was kinda mean to Cleriths was that Cloud opens up to Tifa first instead of being a bit of an ass with her like in the OG. No longer does Cloud demand money and have to be reminded of the promise. He also agrees to go on a date with Tifa, a much more established one than the one Cloud agrees to with Aerith (who might not even know what she agreed to) since Tifa even asks Cloud what she should wear, and none of the suggestions you have are casual 'just hanging out' outfits iirc.

Something I felt Clerith did have in the OG was that Cloud does act nicer initially to Aerith than he does anyone else...unless I'm remembering wrong. But in Remake, Cloud opens up first to Tifa...not Aerith. Which I feel might be a part of Nojima's crusade to obliterate bad Clerith takes by trying to make it apparent that Cloud loved Tifa from the very start.

Soooo many Clerith moments from the OG were either altered or straight up removed, which is why I feel like Cloud also accepting to go on a date with Tifa and opening up to her first is especially mean since that was originally a "Clerith thing".

Nope. Cloud acts nice to Tifa no matter what, while you're allowed to call Aerith the slum drunk when you wake up in her church.

 

[Xannis]

100%. It's even more blatant in Rebirth with chapter 9 where he's never been so exposed in front of anyone.

Something else that struck me about that conversation @ Cissnei's after the reactor. I might be wrong but during my Hardmode replay it struck me that it's by far one of the longest speaking parts Cloud has in the game. I'm not the person to sit there and dissect screen time etc.. but the whole conversation just struck me as completely different tonally and with how much actual talking he does.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Something else that struck me about that conversation @ Cissnei's after the reactor. I might be wrong but during my Hardmode replay it struck me that it's by far one of the longest speaking parts Cloud has in the game. I'm not the person to sit there and dissect screen time etc.. but the whole conversation just struck me as completely different tonally and with how much actual talking he does.

You can hear the anxiety in his voice about it. I think it’s something that’s been eating at him since early in Remake.

 

[Yoru]

Bro, his "what did they tell you ?" kills me EVERYTIME.

 

[Rin]

Something else that struck me about that conversation @ Cissnei's after the reactor. I might be wrong but during my Hardmode replay it struck me that it's by far one of the longest speaking parts Cloud has in the game. I'm not the person to sit there and dissect screen time etc.. but the whole conversation just struck me as completely different tonally and with how much actual talking he does.

Bro, his "what did they tell you ?" kills me EVERYTIME.

This is why I want an ACC redo bc Nojima has actually made Cloud an amazing communicator, even at his lowest, in FF7re.
He's good at being vulnerable with Tifa. He's willing to have the hard conversations, even if Jenova interferes sometimes. This is why I struggle with his characterization in ACC even more now. Yes, people relapse, but we're being shown that Cloud is a man who will go through hell to be there for Tifa and tell her how her feels, even when he's downright terrified.

 

[abzy1200]

And it's also pretty clear to me that some of it was retconned to be given to Tifa. She's his confidante. 100%. It's even more blatant in Rebirth with chapter 9 where he's never been so exposed in front of anyone.

That's honestly the best scene in the game for me.

Bro, his "what did they tell you ?" kills me EVERYTIME.

And so much of my love for this scene can be attributed to this line. The delivery...Cody, you know what you're doing. It's so soft and innocent compared to his usual grumpiness.

I don’t really think the devs think in terms of shipping, but instead in terms of characters, their respective arcs, how those arcs intersect and bolster each other, and how to lovingly display these characters at their best and lowest points.

That’s what I think the love triangle between Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith has evolved into ( to various degrees of success to all parties involved ). Instead of a competition for the affections of Cloud, it’s the hesitant and angsty slow burn of Tifa and Cloud’s romance parallel to the ever growing closeness of Cloud and Aerith who is struggling with her own lingering feelings for someone she struggles to admit may very well be dead.

I don’t think any change to the various scenes are intentionally mean spirited, but I do think they’re deliberately being used beyond mere fanservice/shipping fuel to give depth to these characters. Does it always land? Ehhh tbf no, but maybe when the full picture is in front of us, weaker moments won’t feel so bad.

Well, of course. Obviously, I highly doubt Nojima, Nomura, Kitase etc. got together to plot against Cleriths specifically.

It's not that they made the decision to disadvantage Clerith, it's that they made the decision to elevate Cloti, both just happen to have more or less the same effect on the character interactions and story.

Nope. Cloud acts nice to Tifa no matter what, while you're allowed to call Aerith the slum drunk when you wake up in her church.

I swear he like shouts at her that he won't do another job without being paid and then Tifa has to remind him of the promise to convince him to stick around for the next bombing mission, no? That feels pretty rude to me. Once he remembers the promise, he mellows out of course.

But yes, simply being given the option to label Aerith "the slum drunk" is grim.

---------

There's something else that I'd like to bring attention to, I'm probably slow on the uptake and everyone else has already realised this, but after I remembered this, I now am even more confident that the choice to have Sephiroth convince Cloud that "Jenova can become those you LOVE and those HATE" is intentional in the wording and the fact that it's binary, and that it is 100% referring to Tifa specifically.

Iirc, there are only two people Sephiroth morphs Jenova into in the OG, even though one is indirect and doesn't actually fool Cloud, Sephiroth still morphs Jenova into these two people: Sephiroth himself, and Tifa.

Tifa-Love
Sephiroth-Hate

 

[Eerie]

There's something else that I'd like to bring attention to, I'm probably slow on the uptake and everyone else has already realised this, but after I remembered this, I now am even more confident that the choice to have Sephiroth convince Cloud that "Jenova can become those you LOVE and those HATE" is intentional in the wording

I mean it is, in JP it matches exactly when he looks at Tifa when he repeats "those you love" and there's only Tifa and Sephiroth in the scene: Sephiroth in Kalm says "those you hate, those you love" in that order but in Gongaga Cloud switches them so it'd match Tifa when he says "those you love". So it's veryyyy intentional yeah.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I swear he like shouts at her that he won't do another job without being paid and then Tifa has to remind him of the promise to convince him to stick around for the next bombing mission, no? That feels pretty rude to me. Once he remembers the promise, he mellows out of course.

But yes, simply being given the option to label Aerith "the slum drunk" is grim.

He yells at Barret and tries to storm off, she confronts him about it, he immediately stops in his tracks, even before the brings up the promise, and he decides to stay around and help, though he's still a hardass with Barret.

 

[Yoru]

He yells at Barret and tries to storm off, she confronts him about it, he immediately stops in his tracks, even before the brings up the promise, and he decides to stay around and help, though he's still a hardass with Barret.

Wait what ? Are you implying we were already "winning" in OG ?

More seriously, from what I remember you can't be really mean to Tifa in OG. Your choices are something like "Positive/Neutral"

But Remake/Rebirth is definitely pushing their relation way upfront. Even ignoring "optional scenes" the game is pretty clear about the "tension" between them.

 

[Stiggie]

It's like...AI was trained on the internet, so it would be fed all this gaslighting from Cleriths and isn't sentient to realise they're full of shit. It's just picking and choosing things from a MASSIVE data library. AI can't even begin to interpret art because it isn't sentient in the first place.

Yeah, but that's what makes it so nice, I much prefer AI to people it seems, AI has no ego, it admits when it's wrong. When I gave an argument to ChatGPT it didn't call me a filthy Cloti simp, it complimented my argument and noted how it fit in well with other aspects of the analysis. It was like how I always dream debates go.

I literally just asked it right now bc I was curious and the first time it said this:

Spoiler

View attachment 16889

But I pushed it to give me a real answer and not this cop-out and it gave me this:

Spoiler

View attachment 16890

So your debate with it probably did some good lol

EDIT:

Here's some more interactions I had with it because it's entertaining me while I'm on this work call lmao

Spoiler

View attachment 16891
View attachment 16892

When I asked it after I was done debating it it did say it changed its mind lol so who knows XD

It's actually two overlapping triangles of different types. First is a Bases to Point triangle, where there are two entities who canonically show interest in a third who can be decided, undecided, interested in both, disinterested in both, or even unaware the triangle is happening. That's the girls towards Cloud.

The other one is the Point to Bases type, where a single entitiy has feelings for two (or more, technically) entities and must decide between them. Again, the emotions of the bases here are irrelevant. This is Aerith deciding between Zack and Cloud.

For this to be a square, there would need to be romantic feelings of some sort flowing between Zack and Tifa in either direction, and that's just not the case, no matter what the shippers who want to get them out of the way with each other want to push.

To bring this back to Spider-man, Pete/ MJ/ Gwen is a triangle. If Gwen or MJ like Harry as well, or if he likes one of them, it's multiple triangles. If he likes both, it's a square.
Or if the romance lines flowed Pete-> MJ -> Harry -> Gwen -> Pete, that would also be a love square.

Of course, always remember that polygonal and polyhedral shapes explain romances, they do not dictate them.

Two triangles make a square lol. The point is that this is a debate concerning 4 points. We may as well say that Cloud/Aerith/Tifa isn't a triangle since there is no line between Aerith and Tifa.

This is why I want an ACC redo bc Nojima has actually made Cloud an amazing communicator, even at his lowest, in FF7re.
He's good at being vulnerable with Tifa. He's willing to have the hard conversations, even if Jenova interferes sometimes. This is why I struggle with his characterization in ACC even more now. Yes, people relapse, but we're being shown that Cloud is a man who will go through hell to be there for Tifa and tell her how her feels, even when he's downright terrified.

Tbf, he can communicate in AC as well when he wants to, a bit. He talks to Vincent, he talks to Aerith, and during the dilly dally shilly shally scene he does open up to Tifa.

I swear he like shouts at her that he won't do another job without being paid and then Tifa has to remind him of the promise to convince him to stick around for the next bombing mission, no? That feels pretty rude to me. Once he remembers the promise, he mellows out of course.

But yes, simply being given the option to label Aerith "the slum drunk" is grim.

Thing is, it's wrong to compare the first scene with Tifa with the first scene with Aerith. Not only because of Tifas relationship to Fake Cloud and how he might be faking harder with her. But also because it simply happens earlier in the story, even there he arguably mellowed out a bit by the time you fall into the church.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I actually just started a fresh OG playthrough. He doesn’t really yell at her, but he does argue pretty heatedly with Barret before storming off. Tifa goes after him and brings up the promise so he’ll stay for the next job.

Barret comes up from the basement hideout and throws him 1500 Gil, Cloud scoffs at it before saying he’ll do the next job for 3000. Barret gets mad, Tifa mediates, Barret counter offers for 2000 Gil.

So Cloud doesn’t really yell at her in the original. In the Remake, he does hound her about his money and begrudgingly agrees to walk around with her collecting pay for the filters. He does eventually chill out. I need to do a Remake replay sometime soon.

 

[Rin]

Tbf, he can communicate in AC as well when he wants to, a bit. He talks to Vincent, he talks to Aerith, and during the dilly dally shilly shally scene he does open up to Tifa.

Yeah but he only opens up when he's cornered. I want him to open up before he runs away. I don't even necessarily need him to tell Tifa he has geostigma, I just need him to voice some of his fears about being unable to save to Denzel and how it's compounding with his other thoughts re: Aerith and Zack.

Tbh I think even Nojima made reference to it a bit at the end of Rebirth where Tifa tells him that if he's struggling with his mental health or thinking strange thoughts, he should talk to someone even if it's not her--just someone. Which he agrees to do, so I'm hoping it'll lead into a re-telling of ACC
where he hasn't just ghosted everyone.

 

[Yoru]

I actually just started a fresh OG playthrough. He doesn’t really yell at her, but he does argue pretty heatedly with Barret before storming off. Tifa goes after him and brings up the promise so he’ll stay for the next job.

Barret comes up from the basement hideout and throws him 1500 Gil, Cloud scoffs at it before saying he’ll do the next job for 3000. Barret gets mad, Tifa mediates, Barret counter offers for 2000 Gil.

So Cloud doesn’t really yell at her in the original. In the Remake, he does hound her about his money and begrudgingly agrees to walk around with her collecting pay for the filters. He does eventually chill out. I need to do a Remake replay sometime soon.

Marlene's school money.... damn you Cloud Strife.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yeah but he only opens up when he's cornered. I want him to open up before he runs away. I don't even necessarily need him to tell Tifa he has geostigma, I just need him to voice some of his fears about being unable to save to Denzel and how it's compounding with his other thoughts re: Aerith and Zack.

Tbh I think even Nojima made reference to it a bit at the end of Rebirth where Tifa tells him that if he's struggling with his mental health or thinking strange thoughts, he should talk to someone even if it's not her--just someone. Which he agrees to do, so I'm hoping it'll lead into a re-telling of ACC
where he hasn't just ghosted everyone.

I honestly think Aerith and Zack should’ve only appeared at the very end, and more of the party should’ve been involved. So many of the others overlap with some of Cloud’s struggles, and a spirit session with Aerith and Zack feels like a cheap solution.

I feel like ACC could benefit from cutting back on some of the external conflict and really focusing in on the internal one.

 

[abzy1200]

He yells at Barret and tries to storm off, she confronts him about it, he immediately stops in his tracks, even before the brings up the promise, and he decides to stay around and help, though he's still a hardass with Barret.

I think I might be remembering an exclamation mark that isn't there in that interaction with Tifa after he storms off and it's just the two of them in the bar.

Thing is, it's wrong to compare the first scene with Tifa with the first scene with Aerith. Not only because of Tifas relationship to Fake Cloud and how he might be faking harder with her. But also because it simply happens earlier in the story, even there he arguably mellowed out a bit by the time you fall into the church.

I guess, it's just that they're only really within a day of each other.

More seriously, from what I remember you can't be really mean to Tifa in OG. Your choices are something like "Positive/Neutral"

"Next to you, who wouldn't?"

I mean it is, in JP it matches exactly when he looks at Tifa when he repeats "those you love" and there's only Tifa and Sephiroth in the scene: Sephiroth in Kalm says "those you hate, those you love" in that order but in Gongaga Cloud switches them so it'd match Tifa when he says "those you love". So it's veryyyy intentional yeah.

Of course, but I'm just adding more 'evidence' that it's about Tifa, since this is also how it was in the OG.

Literally the only people Jenova became to fool her prey (On screen and relevant people, atleast) were those Cloud loved and those he hated.

I need to do a Remake replay sometime soon.

I honestly don't think I could after Rebirth. Rebirth's combat is so much more fluid it makes Remake feel jank and clunky in comparison, especially combat in the air.

Wonder what changes they'll make for part 3, if any.

In the Remake, he does hound her about his money and begrudgingly agrees to walk around with her collecting pay for the filters.

Kinda forgot he was a bit adamant about that in Remake, yeah. But he makes up for it by calling her beautiful, so he's still not in Tifa's bad books just yet.

 

[Yoru]

In the Remake, he does hound her about his money and begrudgingly agrees to walk around with her collecting pay for the filters.

I loved this interaction personally. Because we're coming from the bombing mission with a Cloud full of himself, and suddenly when he's alone with Tifa we see a very childish side of him. Same energy when your mom is telling you to go brush your teeth lol

For me it was already pretty telling how he's different with her.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Wait what ? Are you implying we were already "winning" in OG ?

I mean, I know you're joking, but we've always been winning.

More seriously, from what I remember you can't be really mean to Tifa in OG. Your choices are something like "Positive/Neutral"

A lot of them are "Nice to Tifa/ Mean to someone else, probably Barret"

But Remake/Rebirth is definitely pushing their relation way upfront. Even ignoring "optional scenes" the game is pretty clear about the "tension" between them.

Yeah, it's taking time to really expand on them and give them moments to just be together all across the narrative.

Two triangles make a square lol. The point is that this is a debate concerning 4 points. We may as well say that Cloud/Aerith/Tifa isn't a triangle since there is no line between Aerith and Tifa.

Sometimes they make two triangles that make a bigger triangle. Or a parallelogram. And you're right, the term triangle is not wholly accurate, it just sounds much better than "love open wedge"