SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Stiggie]

but it should at least be tolerated.

I'm not even sure what "not tolerating it" looks like, like, are they gonna declare war on SE?

why some people take it so far with wanting their ship to be canon

I wonder if that's what it is. It's not for me at least. I have ships I care about more than Cloud x Tifa that turned out not to be endgame. And while that absolutely sucked and ruined those stories for me I never argued that they were endgame before the series ended, and I never pretended that they are the true couple post-show. For me the only reason I argue about this is because I believe it's blatantly obvious and there is something about me that absolutely hates it when people refuse to just accept the blatantly obvious. It just drives me up the wall, regardless of how meaningless it is. If anything, the meaninglessness makes me more annoyed that people don't accept it.

 

[Ryeleigh]

So why does blue = Cloud? Can’t say I’ve ever associated him with that color. I go more towards Materia colors personally.

Plus, as Cait Sith says in Rebirth, Clouds lucky colour is.... black. And that's the colour he chooses to wear after his real self is restored.

I actually wondered about this too since isn't he (and Tifa) more associated with black (and white) colours? At least post-FF7? And I'd say Zack is more blue since fair skies, blue eyes, etc?

 

[abzy1200]

I swear there's a track in Crisis Core called "Eyes the colour of the sky" or something. Blue is definitely Zack.

 

[Yoru]

And Cloud's VA also voices Rohan in Jojo, he rewrites people...AKA Cloud is going to rewrite destiny itself!!

Nothing will ever be more meta than the VAs of Zack and Aerith married in real life (and I find it so awesome)

By the way, Kenichi Suzumura is on hiatus because he's having trouble coming back from illness. So firstly I hope he's okay, and secondly I wonder if this might affect his role in the game if he's really away for a long time. Or maybe this kind of contract means that he has to be available for certain roles in the background.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I get it, but I don't attack others for their theories the weapons are actually Aerith and Zack or they are protecting Tifa by design to ensure everything happens the way it's supposed to, etc or mock it, CTs have such theories too.

Oh definitely in response to Rin, I do get it, which is why extremists on both sides can ruin things for their other ship mates.

 

[Stiggie]

they are protecting Tifa by design to ensure everything happens the way it's supposed to

You think that's a crackpot theory? I definitely think the weapons protected Tifa for a reason. I mean, they specially guided her to the memories with Cloud, I don't know why they'd do that if not because she has some sort of role they need her to play. Don't know if it's Aerith doing that, or the planet, or even if there is a difference, but there was definitely some intention in it imo.

 

[Yoru]

You think that's a crackpot theory? I definitely think the weapons protected Tifa for a reason. I mean, they specially guided her to the memories with Cloud, I don't know why they'd do that if not because she has some sort of role they need her to play. Don't know if it's Aerith doing that, or the planet, or even if there is a difference, but there was definitely some intention in it imo.

• Cloud tries to kill her
• She survived
• A whale belonging to the planet chooses to swallow her before she reaches the surface just to show her the precise scene that proves Cloud cares about her and wants to protect her.

Literally : "Keep the faith, there is good in him"

I mean... is it even a theory ? That's just the game story lmao.

 

[A-to-Z]

Could I ask everyone how they felt when they watched the whole dream date/Zack's interlude for the first time?

I'm wondering what emotions the devs are trying to capture from the players, especially as they kept swapping between Zack, who's trying to save Aerith relentlessly, and the CA date. Like, on its own I don't think I'd feel as negative/conflicted about the scene than I do with Zack's presence. The message (I think they're trying to say) is not bad, and in fact it's all bittersweet imo. But as I kept seeing Zack... Hmm lol

Love to hear everyone's thoughts

EDIT: Changed 'find Aerith' to 'save Aerith'

Another edit sorry but I guess with the perspective of the whole church scene being meta, if I were to expand it to the date as a whole, it personally inclines me to believe that I'm supposed to feel uncomfortable. But idk maybe it's just my fondness for Zack getting in the way lmao

I find myself unable to elaborate on what I feel about the dream date without explaining my assumptions and theories surrounding it but I still wanted to express my thoughts regarding the matter (Hope you all don’t mind me sharing them):

In the Spanish localization, the dream date world is more explicitly referred to as a place within the lifestream. And since Aerith is Cetra, I think the Cloud who she summoned there is the only version of him that Aerith has access to, it’s the most she can have from him (because she hasn’t met his real version/they don’t have memories together). Considering Zack’s scenes wedged between the dream date sequence, I think the message was Cloud isn’t the ideal guy who’s supposed to be the one going on this date with Aerith, it’s instead Zack, the first love she’s been looking for who’s shown her devotion and loyalty all throughout the game. Zack, the guy who hasn’t given Aerith a reason to not like him. It was to make the player understand that Aerith tries to move on because Zack is not around. He’s been gone and he still is. With the different Stamp logos in mind, it means Z and A are in different worlds, still separated.

I never personally held it against Aerith to have feelings for Cloud, that’s always been part of her character. Though in my opinion it was quite clear she wasn’t trying to see or make Cloud as Zack, they were only doing things that she considers romantic. We know this because it’s a deliberate callback to the Crisis Core date on the dev’s part but her behavior as a character and the decisions she makes still differ from how her date with Zack went (the way I saw it, her looking for different booths/different activities to do is her attempt in trying to make the two dates differ from each other as much as possible). A Japanese Zerith fan analyzed the dream date sequence, and I liked their interpretation that Aerith was actually trying to allow Cloud to choose and exert his free will and agency (in contrast to Sephiroth who’s using him as a puppet) to test if his choices can change fate, because changing fate can make that dream date world last longer (In that way I think it’s a meta commentary about how Cloud can’t fulfill Zack’s role). As demonstrated, Cloud’s choices have no effect on that world or on its people/NPCs; how they all still think their world’s going to end anyways, that they don’t have enough time. Similar to how his choices ultimately have no influence on Aerith not being sure about her feelings for him.

My theory is that Aerith in the dream date world (whos presumably the one from the future) is actually one that Cloud “saved” from her death and lived for a longer time. However this alternate world that he “made” or conjured is still fated to end (and thus is slowly becoming part of the lifestream; like how Sephiroth explained that the alternate worlds are doomed to fade and they eventually end up becoming one with the planet) and that dream date world is ending because there’s no one left to fight fate, except maybe Aerith there (I assumed Sephiroth kills her once he steps in the church, right after Aerith pushes Cloud in the portal after they exchange goodbyes; also notice how the yellow flowers disappear after Cloud is pushed. I think it’s a sign that there’s no hope left for the planet in that world). So even if Cloud did fight fate and save Aerith, he couldn’t save the world where she lives. (Why? Because he’s not able to do it as his real self without Sephiroth’s/Jenova’s influence. The person he is right now is the one who’s most vulnerable to Sephiroth’s manipulation, is he capable of making choices that make a difference; choices that can ultimately change fate when he isn’t even himself?)

In comparison, if you analyze Zack’s scenes, he’s the one bringing hope to his world, evidenced by his presence positively affecting Marlene and Elmyra, how he manages to raise Biggs’ spirit, and the flowers starting to bloom again when he’s there. He remains to have a persistent attitude and a strong will. As he said in his dialogue with Biggs, he wants to “Take action. Take control. To know that I had a choice. That this world was one I chose.” (opposite to what happens to Cloud in the dream date world where he couldn’t make choices/where his choices didn’t matter. And to further contrast, Zack is the one who’s actually following the yellow flowers— which I think is the planet’s will and bridge to reunite Zack and Aerith). So if there was an alternate world that Sephiroth continues to want to destroy (making it doomed, the crack in the sky as a sign of that), where he’d keep hunting down Aerith/Cloud/the main cast there, he would fail if Zack and Aerith were in the same world together, because he never considered Zack as a factor who would get in the way of his plans and needless to say Zack would end up protecting Aerith. (I think the Loveless play where Alphreid and Rosa show their love for each other to the villain can allude to this)

Note/something to add to my theory: I also think that in the dream date world, Zack died/remains to be dead in that continuity, and I think Tifa might also be dead in that world because Cloud woke up from a catatonic state (from the wheelchair) but he couldn’t be his real self because it’s only the version of Cloud that Aerith remembers. Aka it’s the one from her memories. It’s her attempt to bring back Cloud and save him.

Sephiroth making our Aerith’s white materia empty was his attempt at taking away the hope of the world so it can end. But the Aerith in the dream date sacrificed her world to save the one where Cloud and the others are (through giving him her white materia). And I think that’s the point of her character; at the end of the day her biggest priority is to give others hope and to do what she can to save/help them. I also think the last Aerith who says goodbye in the very end of the game is the spirit of our Aerith that had just died. If that assumption is correct, When the camera zooms out, there’s no crack in the clear blue sky in the world where she dies (but even if she’s “dead” because she’s Cetra, I think her spirit is able to traverse different worlds within the lifestream and able to manifest in front of certain characters.) Also, even though I do think Aerith has more awareness on whats happening compared to the player, I don’t think she knows what’s going on with Zack. I think Zack assuming that it’s Aerith who’s healing him/saving him is more of his way to keep himself strong. I also never thought that it was selfish of Aerith to take Cloud on that date, I mean here is the player allowed to make Cloud go on multiple dates with different girls, I don’t see why Aerith should be criticized when her motivation is left unknown + she has no way of knowing Cloud’s feelings for Tifa and vice versa (If we take into account that Tifa wouldn’t easily admit her feelings for Cloud considering she’s the one who’s most aware of his current fake identity).

 

[Hellenic]

On that note, can we all agree that the most annoying people in the LTD are people who act like they're better than it? E.g. "ff7 isn't about romance".

To be fair, a lot of people aren't necessarily fascinated or care as much about that aspect of the game and it's not really front and center most of the time and is more built up on the side while focus is elsewhere.

It's a very important key point of the game that most things in the story hinge on, but it's not like we are playing a game where we are constantly watching 2 characters being madly in love with each other, smooching non stop and the focus being on that. On that note though, i actually didn't like how much FF8 was trying to focus too much on the romance aspect with Squall and Rinoa and why i much prefer this more subtle build on the side approach. Funnily enough even with the more intimate focus in 8, it failed to resonate with me anyway.

Anyway what i'm trying to say is that romance isn't the main interest factor for a lot of players playing these games and some people probably do acknowledge the importance of it here, but they just aren't really interested in that as much over all the other things going on. Romance is a major part of the game but it's not solely about romance is what i think most people feel about it. So them saying "ff7 isn't about romance" i take as a more general statement of it not being the main focus in the game more so than not acknowledging it at all, though i'm sure some people genuinely don't think it matters much either.

 

[Hellenic]

Well, I can understand why shippers have a bad name when you consider the harassment, twisting of canon, demanding validation from the authors and fandom at large, etc. But at the same time, it's supposed to be just this harmless fun thing that people can enjoy so there's really no point to pretend as if you (general you, lol) aren't a shipper and then act exactly like a shipper? If that made any sense, lmao.

I've seen some streamers really enjoy the romance being portrayed in these games yet not wanting to be called a shipper for it, so the label itself definitely has garnered a toxic identity with it so people want to avoid it.

 

[looneymoon]

I'm not even sure what "not tolerating it" looks like, like, are they gonna declare war on SE?

I wonder if that's what it is. It's not for me at least. I have ships I care about more than Cloud x Tifa that turned out not to be endgame. And while that absolutely sucked and ruined those stories for me I never argued that they were endgame before the series ended, and I never pretended that they are the true couple post-show. For me the only reason I argue about this is because I believe it's blatantly obvious and there is something about me that absolutely hates it when people refuse to just accept the blatantly obvious. It just drives me up the wall, regardless of how meaningless it is. If anything, the meaninglessness makes me more annoyed that people don't accept it.

I'm replying as someone who only engages in this forum so please do not be offended. I think what I'm saying is in the same spirit as this post.

I think the thing with Cloud/Aerith is that it is actually super important to the story, which is something the more uh... I want to say psycho C/T shippers often fail consider. It is also engaging to audiences because it relates directly to the thesis statement of the OG. The two are basically the 2 key figures that lead to the planet being saved. Sure, you can argue that Tifa and Zack are part of their individual jouneys. Those character developments give FF7 its own narrative flair. That said, ultimately the lore and the narrative chiefly builds up to the fact that Cloud and Aerith being the saviors of the world.

It makes for a compelling story!

Even though it's not a super complete story at a glance...

Cloud and Aerith do the thing though, ultimately. They had people backing them, sure, but they were the ones who actually did it. For a brief moment, they loved each other, but alas it was not meant to be, because she died. No, in fact, she was murdered! That moment has become more or less, part of the whole FF7 identity.

Cloud and Aerith are pretty much the posterchildren of why the franchise has such a long lasting presence. It's basically why the series has struggled so much with even introducing a new antagonist. None of the sequels have had a great time at introducing a new villain, with Advent Children being the obvious one to point to. If the creators were fully committed to their vision with AC, Sephiroth didn't need to literally show up at all. Obviously the budget needs to justify itself with some dumb extravogent action scene that everyone wants to see. But let's be real, what's even the point of the movie otherwise? The Cloud - Sephiroth drama is so heavily fuelled by the loss of Aerith. The writers are relying so heavily on that pivotal moment, because that's why anyone even wants this dumb Cloud vs. Sephiroth 2.x 7777⁷ power level stupid rematch in the first place. Why else would anyone even care? It becomes so much weird narrative density that the actual emotional core of the story gets completely lost in a sea of ifs and ums of creator statements trying to get across wtf they were even going for.

That... doesn't make for an engaging story now, does it?

Like, listen. I know plenty of normies who love Advent Children much more than I do. This is the same audience who are perfectly capable of understanding something like Noah Bumbach's "Marriage Story," if and when taken on that journey. I just happen to have the dispriveledge of knowing what the fuck the FF7 movie is even about. Try to take to a casual Advent Children watcher, and try to convince them that it was all some big dumbass expensive adventure with the whole point being about Cloud and Tifa working through their relationship problems. Even for people who played the OG and watched Advent Children, there is not a super clear through line to follow, so you end up looking kind of crazy, even though that's the actual literal point of the movie. It's so stupid because I can see how the creators had some humble beginnings, but then it just ballooned, and the budget ballooned, and then some corny exec was like fuck it, we are a zillion dollars in already let's just bring back sephiroth?? so they do, and with him comes all the biggest things he took from the audience, and she's there, but he's there, and...

Look. All I'm saying there's a lot of beauty in the simplicity before so much convolution that is so beyond the expectation for any normal person to follow. Especially when what the expanded story is giving is kinda... lmfao.

I'm not even coming to the discussion as a shipper tbqh. I couldn't really care less, this just happens to be the most active part of the forum lmfao. Sometimes it's really not that much about media literacy. Maybe sometimes we have to be honest about how much depth we allow our media to have. It's something that Rebirth had allowed me embrace in a way that makes me feel happy to talk about FF7 again. These are just my 2 cents I guess. It's a question I really hated how Remake put it. It's something I unironically love about how Rebirth presents itself.

 

[Hellenic]

I think I got into shipping in high school and I knew from the get-go that my ship was never going to be "canon". So I just never really developed this desire for canon validation or whatever. I'm also really introverted so I was happy shipping by lonesome and reading quality fan fiction. In fact, those fan fics were probably better than anything I would've gotten on screen, lol.

So I've never really understood the point of ship wars. Especially if all the ships involved are awful, lmao. Which isn't about FF7, by the way.

Yeah i've always just moved on from a piece of fiction after i was done with it, regardless if my "canon" couple happened or not. Sure i might have been a bit disappointed by the end results but it didn't make me feel like latching onto that thing for years after and being in denial about it like a lot of people seem to do with shipping.

People should just find something else to enjoy at that point instead of being stuck in time.

 

[Stiggie]

To be fair, a lot of people aren't necessarily fascinated or care as much about that aspect of the game and it's not really front and center most of the time and is more built up on the side while focus is elsewhere.

It's a very important key point of the game that most things in the story hinge on, but it's not like we are playing a game where we are constantly watching 2 characters being madly in love with each other, smooching non stop and the focus being on that. On that note though, i actually didn't like how much FF8 was trying to focus too much on the romance aspect with Squall and Rinoa and why i much prefer this more subtle build on the side approach. Funnily enough even with the more intimate focus in 8, it failed to resonate with me anyway.

Anyway what i'm trying to say is that romance isn't the main interest factor for a lot of players playing these games and some people probably do acknowledge the importance of it here, but they just aren't really interested in that as much over all the other things going on. Romance is a major part of the game but it's not solely about romance is what i think most people feel about it. So them saying "ff7 isn't about romance" i take as a more general statement of it not being the main focus in the game more so than not acknowledging it at all, though i'm sure some people genuinely don't think it matters much either.

Don't we though?

I think it's rather a matter of perspective. The iliad might not be about romance, but it is true that the entire plot only happens because Paris is in love with Helen, that fact arguably does underline every event in the story, in FFVII it's much more directly true.
FFIX isn't about romance, romance has very little to do with 99% of the scenes in the game. But in FFVII? The majority of plot scenes involve either the journey towards stopping Sephiroth, or Cloud having visions of Sephiroth. Both those things are very directly romance related, especially the visions. Any scene about Cloud slowly losing it is in essence a chapter in the story of Cloud and Tifas romance, because all those scenes conjure up the questions of "what and why", and the answer to both those questions can be found in the romance between Cloud and Tifa. That is the point of those scenes when you know what is going on, he's acting out a fake persona inspired by his desire to be accepted by Tifa. To me, every single scene where Cloud is losing it is telling me "man, they're really going full in on what Tifa means to him".

 

[Hellenic]

I think it's rather a matter of perspective. The iliad might not be about romance, but it is true that the entire plot only happens because Paris is in love with Helen, that fact arguably does underline every event in the story, in FFVII it's much more directly true.
FFIX isn't about romance, romance has very little to do with 99% of the scenes in the game. But in FFVII? The majority of plot scenes involve either the journey towards stopping Sephiroth, or Cloud having visions of Sephiroth. Both those things are very directly romance related, especially the visions. Any scene about Cloud slowly losing it is in essence a chapter in the story of Cloud and Tifas romance, because all those scenes conjure up the questions of "what and why", and the answer to both those questions can be found in the romance between Cloud and Tifa. That is the point of those scenes when you know what is going on, he's acting out a fake persona inspired by his desire to be accepted by Tifa. To me, every single scene where Cloud is losing it is telling me "man, they're really going full in on what Tifa means to him".

Exactly. It's a matter of perspective. Some people just don't care for romance and focus more on the other things in the game. Nothing wrong with it honestly. Nothing you said is wrong, but some people just simply don't care for romance in their fictional work and this game does give people plenty of other things to care more about.

Honestly it's on people themselves if they don't see the bigger picture by the end, but i'm not gonna try to force people to enjoy the romance either. Different strokes for different folks in fiction and this game definitely can be enjoyed outside of Cloud and Tifas romance.

 

[Yoru]

I'm replying as someone who only engages in this forum so please do not be offended. I think what I'm saying is in the same spirit as this post.

I think the thing with Cloud/Aerith is that it is actually super important to the story, which is something the more uh... I want to say psycho C/T shippers often fail consider. It is also engaging to audiences because it relates directly to the thesis statement of the OG. The two are basically the 2 key figures that lead to the planet being saved. Sure, you can argue that Tifa and Zack are part of their individual jouneys. Those character developments give FF7 its own narrative flair. That said, ultimately the lore and the narrative chiefly builds up to the fact that Cloud and Aerith being the saviors of the world.

It makes for a compelling story!

Never said Aerith wasn't important to the story personally. And yes, she is the poster girl.

But I don't understand how that should automatically make her the hero's main romance. And that's what I "blame" CA for.
I don't think it's that complicated to understand.

Terra is the poster girl of FFVI. Lightning for FFXIII. However, at no point are they part of the romance of their respective games.

So I'm sorry but if people are annoyed because the third game confirms what we've known for a long time (= Cloud and Tifa are a thing) That's on them.

EDIT : Of course, her relationship with Cloud has nothing to do with the other characters mentioned. What I'm criticizing is this idea that poster girl = protagonist of the romance automatically.

 

[Hellenic]

• Cloud tries to kill her
• She survived
• A whale belonging to the planet chooses to swallow her before she reaches the surface just to show her the precise scene that proves Cloud cares about her and wants to protect her.

Literally : "Keep the faith, there is good in him"

I mean... is it even a theory ? That's just the game story lmao.

How do people here feel about this in general? Are they making Tifa a bit too special of a being similar to Aerith now or are we cool with the planet keeping her in a pedestal like this?

We all know this happened because the planet needs Cloud to be there to get rid of Sephiroth and Tifa is needed to ensure that happens, but do we think they are leaning too much towards making all our main characters feel like some special beings or heroes now instead of just being normal people that happened to achieve big things?

 

[nars305]

How do people here feel about this in general? Are they making Tifa a bit too special of a being similar to Aerith now or are we cool with the planet keeping her in a pedestal like this?

I think there is an attachment or importance with Tifa and the weapons. This is just what the story makes me feel. It’s one thing to show the weapons and everyone be in awe of them. It’s another thing to have Tifa fall into the LS, be protected by the weapon, have her encourage them, have Buugenhagen offend her about her explaining the weapons, and have her give an emotional speech about the LS.

There were story beats that kind of urged me to take mental notes of Tifa’s relationships with the LS and weapons.

 

[Yoru]

How do people here feel about this in general? Are they making Tifa a bit too special of a being similar to Aerith now or are we cool with the planet keeping her in a pedestal like this?

We all know this happened because the planet needs Cloud to be there to get rid of Sephiroth and Tifa is needed to ensure that happens, but do we think they are leaning too much towards making all our main characters feel like some special beings or heroes now instead of just being normal people that happened to achieve big things?

I'm ok with it because what I don't like is the idea of predestined. The idea that the world chose you as its chosen one before you were even in your mother's womb.

In this case, Tifa is still nobody. It's just that she happens to be the person from whom the hero who's going to save the world by killing Sephiroth draws his greatest motivation.

These are just facts. Cloud will succeed in killing Sephiroth in the future, and Tifa is the one who gets him out of Jenova/Sephiroth's internal schemes.

So I don't think it's too bad that the planet chose them as its champions to protect it during the current events. But I do wish we'd learn that it was Aerith's initiative and not the planet's. That would make it a little more personal and a little less deus ex machina.

 

[Hellenic]

I find myself unable to elaborate on what I feel about the dream date without explaining my assumptions and theories surrounding it but I still wanted to express my thoughts regarding the matter (Hope you all don’t mind me sharing them):

In the Spanish localization, the dream date world is more explicitly referred to as a place within the lifestream. And since Aerith is Cetra, I think the Cloud who she summoned there is the only version of him that Aerith has access to, it’s the most she can have from him (because she hasn’t met his real version/they don’t have memories together). Considering Zack’s scenes wedged between the dream date sequence, I think the message was Cloud isn’t the ideal guy who’s supposed to be the one going on this date with Aerith, it’s instead Zack, the first love she’s been looking for who’s shown her devotion and loyalty all throughout the game. Zack, the guy who hasn’t given Aerith a reason to not like him. It was to make the player understand that Aerith tries to move on because Zack is not around. He’s been gone and he still is. With the different Stamp logos in mind, it means Z and A are in different worlds, still separated.

I never personally held it against Aerith to have feelings for Cloud, that’s always been part of her character. Though in my opinion it was quite clear she wasn’t trying to see or make Cloud as Zack, they were only doing things that she considers romantic. We know this because it’s a deliberate callback to the Crisis Core date on the dev’s part but her behavior as a character and the decisions she makes still differ from how her date with Zack went (the way I saw it, her looking for different booths/different activities to do is her attempt in trying to make the two dates differ from each other as much as possible). A Japanese Zerith fan analyzed the dream date sequence, and I liked their interpretation that Aerith was actually trying to allow Cloud to choose and exert his free will and agency (in contrast to Sephiroth who’s using him as a puppet) to test if his choices can change fate, because changing fate can make that dream date world last longer (In that way I think it’s a meta commentary about how Cloud can’t fulfill Zack’s role). As demonstrated, Cloud’s choices have no effect on that world or on its people/NPCs; how they all still think their world’s going to end anyways, that they don’t have enough time. Similar to how his choices ultimately have no influence on Aerith not being sure about her feelings for him.

My theory is that Aerith in the dream date world (whos presumably the one from the future) is actually one that Cloud “saved” from her death and lived for a longer time. However this alternate world that he “made” or conjured is still fated to end (and thus is slowly becoming part of the lifestream; like how Sephiroth explained that the alternate worlds are doomed to fade and they eventually end up becoming one with the planet) and that dream date world is ending because there’s no one left to fight fate, except maybe Aerith there (I assumed Sephiroth kills her once he steps in the church, right after Aerith pushes Cloud in the portal after they exchange goodbyes; also notice how the yellow flowers disappear after Cloud is pushed. I think it’s a sign that there’s no hope left for the planet in that world). So even if Cloud did fight fate and save Aerith, he couldn’t save the world where she lives. (Why? Because he’s not able to do it as his real self without Sephiroth’s/Jenova’s influence. The person he is right now is the one who’s most vulnerable to Sephiroth’s manipulation, is he capable of making choices that make a difference; choices that can ultimately change fate when he isn’t even himself?)

In comparison, if you analyze Zack’s scenes, he’s the one bringing hope to his world, evidenced by his presence positively affecting Marlene and Elmyra, how he manages to raise Biggs’ spirit, and the flowers starting to bloom again when he’s there. He remains to have a persistent attitude and a strong will. As he said in his dialogue with Biggs, he wants to “Take action. Take control. To know that I had a choice. That this world was one I chose.” (opposite to what happens to Cloud in the dream date world where he couldn’t make choices/where his choices didn’t matter. And to further contrast, Zack is the one who’s actually following the yellow flowers— which I think is the planet’s will and bridge to reunite Zack and Aerith). So if there was an alternate world that Sephiroth continues to want to destroy (making it doomed, the crack in the sky as a sign of that), where he’d keep hunting down Aerith/Cloud/the main cast there, he would fail if Zack and Aerith were in the same world together, because he never considered Zack as a factor who would get in the way of his plans and needless to say Zack would end up protecting Aerith. (I think the Loveless play where Alphreid and Rosa show their love for each other to the villain can allude to this)

Note/something to add to my theory: I also think that in the dream date world, Zack died/remains to be dead in that continuity, and I think Tifa might also be dead in that world because Cloud woke up from a catatonic state (from the wheelchair) but he couldn’t be his real self because it’s only the version of Cloud that Aerith remembers. Aka it’s the one from her memories. It’s her attempt to bring back Cloud and save him.

Sephiroth making our Aerith’s white materia empty was his attempt at taking away the hope of the world so it can end. But the Aerith in the dream date sacrificed her world to save the one where Cloud and the others are (through giving him her white materia). And I think that’s the point of her character; at the end of the day her biggest priority is to give others hope and to do what she can to save/help them. I also think the last Aerith who says goodbye in the very end of the game is the spirit of our Aerith that had just died. If that assumption is correct, When the camera zooms out, there’s no crack in the clear blue sky in the world where she dies (but even if she’s “dead” because she’s Cetra, I think her spirit is able to traverse different worlds within the lifestream and able to manifest in front of certain characters.) Also, even though I do think Aerith has more awareness on whats happening compared to the player, I don’t think she knows what’s going on with Zack. I think Zack assuming that it’s Aerith who’s healing him/saving him is more of his way to keep himself strong. I also never thought that it was selfish of Aerith to take Cloud on that date, I mean here is the player allowed to make Cloud go on multiple dates with different girls, I don’t see why Aerith should be criticized when her motivation is left unknown + she has no way of knowing Cloud’s feelings for Tifa and vice versa (If we take into account that Tifa wouldn’t easily admit her feelings for Cloud considering she’s the one who’s most aware of his current fake identity).

That's a really good take on the scenes. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Hellenic]

I'm ok with it because what I don't like is the idea of predestined. The idea that the world chose you as its chosen one before you were even in your mother's womb.

In this case, Tifa is still nobody. It's just that she happens to be the person from whom the hero who's going to save the world by killing Sephiroth draws his greatest motivation.

These are just facts. Cloud will succeed in killing Sephiroth in the future, and Tifa is the one who gets him out of Jenova/Sephiroth's internal schemes.

So I don't think it's too bad that the planet chose them as its champions to protect it during the current events. But I do wish we'd learn that it was Aerith's initiative and not the planet's. That would make it a little more personal and a little less deus ex machina.

I do think Aerith had something to do with it because we see the white whispers during that and it's made fairly clear that she has some control of them at least.

 

[Hellenic]

I think there is an attachment or importance with Tifa and the weapons. This is just what the story makes me feel. It’s one thing to show the weapons and everyone be in awe of them. It’s another thing to have Tifa fall into the LS, be protected by the weapon, have her encourage them, have Buugenhagen offend her about her explaining the weapons, and have her give an emotional speech about the LS.

There were story beats that kind of urged me to take mental notes of Tifa’s relationships with the LS and weapons.

I was honestly surprised they gave Tifa this kinda role tied with the planet instead of Aerith.

 

[looneymoon]

Could I ask everyone how they felt when they watched the whole dream date/Zack's interlude for the first time?

I'm wondering what emotions the devs are trying to capture from the players, especially as they kept swapping between Zack, who's trying to save Aerith relentlessly, and the CA date. Like, on its own I don't think I'd feel as negative/conflicted about the scene than I do with Zack's presence. The message (I think they're trying to say) is not bad, and in fact it's all bittersweet imo. But as I kept seeing Zack... Hmm lol

Love to hear everyone's thoughts

EDIT: Changed 'find Aerith' to 'save Aerith'

Another edit sorry but I guess with the perspective of the whole church scene being meta, if I were to expand it to the date as a whole, it personally inclines me to believe that I'm supposed to feel uncomfortable. But idk maybe it's just my fondness for Zack getting in the way lmao

I honestly just saw the last C/A date as a mix of saying goodbye, softening the blow of her death and how it affects Cloud, and just having a final time space where she could pretend that she could ever have a normal life.

It's hard to say because it's impossible to assess what Aerith actually knows about the future. What isn't difficult to figure out is what she desires

The date is something Cloud/Aerith weirdly connect on, as they were both lonely children who ultimately become ShinRa experiment projects, and want to cling onto something. It's not something they ever get the chance to decompress with each other, obviously. That said... somewhere, somehow, in a fake it until you make it reality, they can just be normal people going on a normal date. It's something that can only happen in this little pocket of existence. Aerith especially, only ever wished she could be a normal girl. The only person who ever made her feel that way was Zack - the kinda sad and sick twist being that Cloud feels the same with her... because of Zack.

I didn't really think about Zack's direct involvement too much because it honestly didn't seem that important? Zack and Aerith have yet to have their reunion. Cloud and Zack's reunion basically amounted to a big fanservicd fight with basically no reaction from either of them. So I'm genuinely at a loss as to how much the narrative even wants anyone to care about Zack??? It just feels like the writers have no idea what they're doing with him. At least his kit is fun lol.

Never said Aerith wasn't important to the story personally. And yes, she is the poster girl.

But I don't understand how that should automatically make her the hero's main romance. And that's what I "blame" CA for.
I don't think it's that complicated to understand.

Terra is the poster girl of FFVI. Lightning for FFXIII. However, at no point are they part of the romance of their respective games.

So I'm sorry but if people are annoyed because the third game confirms what we've known for a long time (= Cloud and Tifa are a thing) That's on them.

Not saying that it automatically makes a romantic entanglement, but there's something more blatant going on with the text than say... Locke/Terra or whatever. That isn't to say they're endgame either, but it is so a much easier narrative thread to be a sticking point for the stakes of the story. C/T is the forgone conclusion for the characters in a post game narrative because of the lifestream/Highwind scenes, but that also means the audience has to buy the events of Advent Children (the direct sequel and also C/T focused) as saying "look! it's a marriage story but also Sephiroth is back for some reason." The direction of the film's messaging is very confused for anyone who isn't chronically glued to dev statements, to say the least.

 

[Hellenic]

But I don't understand how that should automatically make her the hero's main romance.

It's the first girl that meets the hero syndrome. People like to immediately pair up the protag with the first female lead/character.

 

[abzy1200]

she has no way of knowing Cloud’s feelings for Tifa and vice versa

I would argue that she absolutely does.

-She saw the flower she said would make a great gift for Cloud's girlfriend in Seventh Heaven, and smiled. This was after she asked him who he gave it to, to which he said "I don't remember".

-Yuffie was able to pick up on it in a matter of days. If the emotionally mature Aerith can't pick up on it in a couple weeks, then everything feels inconsistent.

-Omni Aerith knows more than she lets on.

-Aerith in Rebirth does atleast know how important Tifa is to Cloud. She laments that she doesn't have a friend like Tifa is to Cloud that she can reminisce with, and she more or less tells him to cherish her after their argument in Kalm.

-She teases Cloud sitting on the water tower trying to catch gimpses of Tifa.

-She's present in Gongaga, when Yuffie and Cait Sith are begging them to kiss while they are having an intimate conversation. Since Cloud and Tifa can hear whispers through the door, I'm certain atleast some of that conversation was audible through the door, and that Aerith was able to hear some of it.

-Cloud would go as far as to drop everything he's doing to pretend to be a sex worker if it means he can help Tifa. And humiliate himself on stage.

After all this, you're willfully ignorant if you don't pick up on it. Which is why it makes no sense for the supposedly emotionally mature Aerith to not pick up on it. Nevermind the obviously complicated and deep past Cloud and Tifa have with each other.

This also isn't to say we should judge Aerith if she did pick up on these feelings or not. This post isn't meant to prove Aerith is some sort of homewrecker, she isn't. It's just that having Aerith be completely ignorant towards how Cloud feels about Tifa feels inconsistent with what we are shown.

Anyway what i'm trying to say is that romance isn't the main interest factor for a lot of players playing these games and some people probably do acknowledge the importance of it here, but they just aren't really interested in that as much over all the other things going on. Romance is a major part of the game but it's not solely about romance is what i think most people feel about it. So them saying "ff7 isn't about romance" i take as a more general statement of it not being the main focus in the game more so than not acknowledging it at all, though i'm sure some people genuinely don't think it matters much either.

Yes, ff7 is not strictly about romance, and people have the right not to care. But I don't think I've ever seen somebody say "ff7 isn't about romance" in good faith, in a way that isn't trying to put down people who are discussing this side of story. From what I've seen, it's used synonymously with "I don't care, shut up weird shipper", if you get me?

 

[Yoru]

but that also means the audience has to buy the events of Advent Children (the direct sequel and also C/T focused) as saying "look! it's a marriage story but also Sephiroth is back for some reason." The direction of the film's messaging is very confused for anyone who isn't chronically glued to dev statements, to say the least.

I think we're all honest enough to understand that you can't sell a film entirely in CGI to your investors (even more so when your first attempt practically bankrupted you) simply on the story of the daily life of married couple. Of course you had to find an excuse to explain the action moments and create drama.

Personally, I don't really understand what that has to do with the argument. And I don't see your point.

Is it CT's fault that the film sucks? Their story isn't interesting enough, so it's their fault they chose to put Sephiroth in it ? I just think the film sucks. Because like most of the compilation project, it's just content for the idea of content.

So yeah I'm sorry if I'm dumb, but I really don't understand why AC is some living proof for people to explain CT is not really a thing. Aerith and Zack are still dead. Cloud and Tifa are still living with a child calling Tifa mom.