SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

Honestly, I don't. This might be weird to say since I am considered a Cloti, but I wish rebirth had spend more time setting up Cloud and Aeriths bond. Mostly I just ship 2 things, 1: A good story, and 2: People accepting the story for what it is.
And imo, the story would have been better if part 2 had spend more time showing Aerith and Cloud growing close. Right now, in my opinion, their bond was portrayed HORRIBLY. One of the reasons it feels so obvious that Aerith is misidentifying her feelings for Cloud and is still somehow coping with Zack is because that's the only thing that would explain why she'd feel anything for Cloud, a random dude who she barely interacted with, and has been consistently awful to her, and acting like a psychopath in general.
If we look at what happens in between Gongaga and Aeriths death, the idea that she might have developed feelings for Cloud is just....insane. And imo, regardless of shipping preferences, that shouldn't be.

For me, she seemed to had answer that in her GS date. She tells Cloud she is trying to find him. There is a barrier that doesn’t allow them to truly get close. Still, after that confession, they are able to get a bit closer.

I also liked the interpretation with them in Nibelheim. How an answer of Cloud agreeing he wanted Tifa to wave to him is the best answer because Aerith takes it as him opening up finally.

They are just robbed of their friendship though, and more so that time that they needed.

 

[abzy1200]

One girl is looking for the guy she’s like liked since she was 13 and the other is trying to not see the guy she’s been pining for 5 years for.

7 years, even.

 

[MissMDusk]

I thought the "Because we're friends" line Cloud says in the LA version of the dream date kind of said where they stood, which is why Aerith says something like "Now I know where we stand."

But now that I've seen the scene again, it reminds me of what Cloud's mo-cap actor said about how Cloud shows himself becoming more vulnerable and displaying his true feelings. When he's fully facing someone (like Tifa in Gongaga) and answering her honestly, I think this is what his mo-cap actor meant by him showing his true self.

Open to everyone else's thoughts, and I am just rambling, but I wonder if the LA version of the dream date is him being closed off/not fully honest with himself, whilst the HA is him being fully honest/showing his true feelings to Aerith.

Whether it is just a nicer, roundabout way of him still saying they're just friends, or may indicate something more, I don't know. And I know in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter, but it has been on my mind for a bit.

If you can't tell I can't stop thinking about that dream date it's so weird to me I'm sorry

 

[nars305]

I thought the "Because we're friends" line Cloud says in the LA version of the dream date kind of said where they stood, which is why Aerith says something like "Now I know where we stand."

But now that I've seen the scene again, it reminds me of what Cloud's mo-cap actor said about how Cloud shows himself becoming more vulnerable and displaying his true feelings. When he's fully facing someone (like Tifa in Gongaga) and answering her honestly, I think this is what his mo-cap actor meant by him showing his true self.

Open to everyone else's thoughts, and I am just rambling, but I wonder if the LA version of the dream date is him being closed off/not fully honest with himself, whilst the HA is him being fully honest/showing his true feelings to Aerith.

Whether it is just a nicer, roundabout way of him still saying they're just friends, or may indicate something more, I don't know. And I know in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter, but it has been on my mind for a bit.

If you can't tell I can't stop thinking about that dream date it's so weird to me I'm sorry

I’ve said my interpretation of the dream date a little while ago but I didn’t see it as romantic personally.

I saw it as Aerith being happy that Cloud would want to hang out with her again. He is usually reluctant, but this time he was not.

She can say goodbye to him knowing they were actually friends instead of only being in each others life because they had common enemies.

 

[Eerie]

they won't outright state "we're just just friends" simply so people can keep fantasizing

And yet Cloud says it they are nakamas, so they are friends. No matter how you turn it, the church scene is her realisation that they aren't on the same level or that her feelings aren't as strong as she thought they would be. The HA version is a nicer way to say it, IMHO, since if I look at the HW scene, both version are romantic-coded, one is just bolder than the other. So to me both versions of the church scene show friendship from Cloud.

I like to think that without Cloud knowing it, he had an extension of the friendship he cherished with Zack through Aerith.

I tend to think that the fact that they both miss Zack is how they connect at first in Remake, and maybe Zack and Aerith will reconnect at first through Cloud.

7 years, even.

No, 5 since @pxl_pushr is talking about Aerith pining for Zack.

 

[MissMDusk]

Just to reference what I mean about Cloud's mo-cap actor, I'll link the translation of his thoughts here

x.com

x.com

 

[abzy1200]

Could I ask somebody to show me what's said in Japanese that was translated to "now I know where we stand"?

Just want to know if that's a weird translation or if it's actually accurate, thanks.

 

[Yoru]

I’ve said my interpretation of the dream date a little while ago but I didn’t see it as romantic personally.

I saw it as Aerith being happy that Cloud would want to hang out with her again. He is usually reluctant, but this time he was not.

She can say goodbye to him knowing they were actually friends instead of only being in each others life because they had common enemies.

Pretty much my POV too.

I assume that if you want to say something, you say it. You don't have to beat around the bush. Especially when it's your last chance. So as soon as she started talking in charades, it was all over for me. The CA love arc ended at that point.

 

[MissMDusk]

I’ve said my interpretation of the dream date a little while ago but I didn’t see it as romantic personally.

I saw it as Aerith being happy that Cloud would want to hang out with her again. He is usually reluctant, but this time he was not.

She can say goodbye to him knowing they were actually friends instead of only being in each others life because they had common enemies.

I initially thought it could be either platonic (LA) or romantic? (HA), but that it didn't matter in the end as she dies.

I really like your interpretation of the HA, because even if Aerith has feelings on her side, the friendship they built in this game shouldn't be overlooked, and Cloud had come to really treasure her time as one would with a close - even best - friend. It feels much more sweet, more heartwarming and makes the tragedy of her end much more sad imo.

 

[Yoru]

Could I ask somebody to show me what's said in Japanese that was translated to "now I know where we stand"?

Just want to know if that's a weird translation or if it's actually accurate, thanks.

In japanese she says : "I'm happy at least to hear your feelings"

Because she's responding at Cloud saying "We can make more memories next time"

She's just happy to hear him say he's willing to spend time with her on his own.

 

[overheat28]

I find it funny how dream date Aerith "primes" Cloud's Soldier persona just before commencing the date. In English she says "up and at ' em, Soldier!" to get him out of the chair. For all that CAs go on about her seeing the real Cloud before anyone else, this seems contradictory to me.

This is supposedly an Aerith who is already dead and has more knowledge but she's still hung up on Soldier!Cloud? Like, so when did she see through him? All I see here is further support to the idea that she will automatically reinforce his false persona. Since this is her dream, how am I supposed to read this any other way than the fake persona is what she's wanted all along, i.e. "Play along". And even then the date goes all sorts of wrong.

Just a small detail that stood out to me on repeat playthrough.

 

[abzy1200]

I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say it's just her teasing.

 

[Yoru]

You know, I wonder if she knows the future as well as we think. Maybe we give a little too much credit to the abilities of a deceased person. I don't think all she has to do is fire up Netflix in the LS to see the story like you'd play a video game.

I think that would be too easy and create too many inconsistencies. Whether it's her lack of consideration for Zack. Whether it's “stealing” one of the great moments in Tifa's story. Aerith knowing everything is a problem, I think.

Personally, I prefer the way it's represented in OG. We know she's “out there” somewhere, we can feel her. But at the same time it's very vague. Maybe she's not really here.

This sort of Jedi ghost who can interact with the living world as if nothing had happened and with all possible knowledge... I don't find that very interesting...

I really hope they find a good explanation, that we were wrong with Omni-Aerith.

 

[Eerie]

I personally never took it as "oh she knows everything". In the OG, Sephiroth mentions that he scoured the Lifestream to find every bit of knowledge, but I don't think that's how Aerith does it; if we look at how she acts at the Temple, she lets the Cetra knowledge guide her. So I think it's likely that something similar happens once she dies, that she does gain some sort of knowledge, but we're not talking about all memories ever. I don't think she would like to pry on her friends' memories for example.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I personally never took it as "oh she knows everything". In the OG, Sephiroth mentions that he scoured the Lifestream to find every bit of knowledge, but I don't think that's how Aerith does it; if we look at how she acts at the Temple, she lets the Cetra knowledge guide her. So I think it's likely that something similar happens once she dies, that she does gain some sort of knowledge, but we're not talking about all memories ever. I don't think she would like to pry on her friends' memories for example.

I do find it interesting that she seems surprised by Cloud expressing a willingness to hang out with her again and the surprise she expresses back in her resolution in Remake when Cloud is determined to go rescue her. Her memories are likely locked to her own recollection of things, and she isn’t any more knowledgeable about other people’s memories.

Also feeds into my suspicion that her fiddling with stuff in Remake basically just simulates the optional stuff in OG. Different paths diverge but then they come back together at key points. Similar to no matter how you treat Aerith or Tifa, Aerith still dies, Tifa still helps Cloud reform himself, and Cloud still loves Tifa.

 

[Yoru]

Also feeds into my suspicion that her fiddling with stuff in Remake basically just simulates the optional stuff in OG. Different paths diverge but then they come back together at key points. Similar to no matter how you treat Aerith or Tifa, Aerith still dies, Tifa still helps Cloud reform himself, and Cloud still loves Tifa.

In fact, I don't think she's fiddling in the Remake. I think all these “hints” of an all-knowing Aerith is really just a staging of something in OG that isn't emphasized too much in Remake. Aerith hears the planet. That's what she does in the game's intro. Whether it's her willingness to go and save Tifa. Her knowledge of Sector 7 and Marlene. I think it's the same principle as the Force and the Jedi. It's just an “intuition” given to her by the planet.

And for some reason (maybe the planet gets scared when it understands that Sephiroth is in the LS), it chooses to give her all the information she needs. To the point where Aerith doesn't know which way to turn. Literally lost in the flood of information (her dialogue in her room in the Shinra tower).

Why did the planet choose to stop talking to her in Rebirth? I don't know.

But I think Aerith's agenda is far less premeditated than we think. And I think there's only one Aerith.

The other two (Resolution in Remake and Sector 5 date in Rebirth) are visions while Cloud is “dreaming”. A sort of strange mix from the LS. She's not a real person. Just a vision from Cloud's thoughts and the magic of the LS.

The real moment when she takes the reigns is after her visit to the temple. A moment that lasted several hours, according to the game. The moment when she herself enters into communication with the planet, asking how to get in and what to do.

 

[pxl_pushr]

In fact, I don't think she's fiddling in the Remake. I think all these “hints” of an all-knowing Aerith is really just a staging of something in OG that isn't emphasized too much in Remake. Aerith hears the planet. That's what she does in the game's intro. Whether it's her willingness to go and save Tifa. Her knowledge of Sector 7 and Marlene. I think it's the same principle as the Force and the Jedi. It's just an “intuition” given to her by the planet.

And for some reason (maybe the planet gets scared when it understands that Sephiroth is in the LS), it chooses to give her all the information she needs. To the point where Aerith doesn't know which way to turn. Literally lost in the flood of information (her dialogue in her room in the Shinra tower).

Why did the planet choose to stop talking to her in Rebirth? I don't know.

But I think Aerith's agenda is far less premeditated than we think. And I think there's only one Aerith.

The other two (Resolution in Remake and Sector 5 date in Rebirth) are visions while Cloud is “dreaming”. A sort of strange mix from the LS. She's not a real person. Just a vision from Cloud's thoughts and the magic of the LS.

The real moment when she takes the reins is after her visit to the temple. A moment that lasted several hours, according to the game. The moment when she herself enters into communication with the planet, asking how to get in and what to do.

I mean, that would answer most of my issues with an overpowered Aerith lol basically boils down to the planet doing more of the heavy lifting than people think.

 

[Stiggie]

In fact, I don't think she's fiddling in the Remake. I think all these “hints” of an all-knowing Aerith is really just a staging of something in OG that isn't emphasized too much in Remake. Aerith hears the planet. That's what she does in the game's intro. Whether it's her willingness to go and save Tifa. Her knowledge of Sector 7 and Marlene. I think it's the same principle as the Force and the Jedi. It's just an “intuition” given to her by the planet.

And for some reason (maybe the planet gets scared when it understands that Sephiroth is in the LS), it chooses to give her all the information she needs. To the point where Aerith doesn't know which way to turn. Literally lost in the flood of information (her dialogue in her room in the Shinra tower).

Why did the planet choose to stop talking to her in Rebirth? I don't know.

But I think Aerith's agenda is far less premeditated than we think. And I think there's only one Aerith.

The other two (Resolution in Remake and Sector 5 date in Rebirth) are visions while Cloud is “dreaming”. A sort of strange mix from the LS. She's not a real person. Just a vision from Cloud's thoughts and the magic of the LS.

The real moment when she takes the reigns is after her visit to the temple. A moment that lasted several hours, according to the game. The moment when she herself enters into communication with the planet, asking how to get in and

Since the souls of people are made up of lifestream wouldn't a construct made by the life stream in essence be the same as the actual person? That definitely seems to be a running theme in this story.

 

[imach0c0]

I don't think we'll ever really know the meaning of her feelings for Cloud. At least, not in this updated version of FF7.

I think that's one of the few things they'll leave open to interpretation. Because they don't have to tell it. She's dead and can find her lost love. Cloud is already in love with someone, and it's mutual. There's no need to shatter some people's “dream”. They can imagine whatever they want, it won't change the finality of the story.

The way the trilogy has been treating Aerith's "feelings" for Cloud, it seems it might be less interpretative going into part 3.

In REMAKE, although vague, a seed is planted on the idea of the "illusion" of love. In Aerith's Chapter 14 resolution, she says to Cloud, but mostly to herself (remake ultimania): "Whatever happens, don't fall in love with me. Even if you think you have its in your imagination." (JP rough translation)

In REBIRTH, this concept of this "illusion or "imagination" or what Aerith is having "feelings" for is explored and we get further context (though one can argue it still has interpretative elements). In the Aerith GS date, Aerith says she initially saw Zack in Cloud. After the dream date, Aerith questions what kind of "suki" (like) she has for him.

However, I think what will make it less interpretative is Zack's role as part of his arc is his relationship with Aerith. Zack is aware that Aerith has "feelings" for Cloud from Marlene. Zack also references it to Cloud when he sees him in the white space: "I'm kinda jealous of you/You've been naughty" (JP rough translation) From a storytelling POV, its an interesting choice to have Zack be given this information and kinda be bothered by it. This indicates that a conflict has been setup for him.

On the premise there is a ZA reunion (romantic), I am inclined to think that all of this has been set up to be resolved in the next game. Seeing how Aerith's "feelings" for Cloud is kinda the elephant in the room regarding the ZA relationship status, I don't think Aerith confessing her love to Zack is enough to resolve it as Zack is aware of the Cloud "feelings" and he needs to know where he stands. And I don't think its in Zack's character to pursue Aerith if she had unresolved feelings.

Even though there has not been direct confirmation of what Aerith's "feelings" for Cloud entails, the information presented in REMAKE and REBIRTH seems to be providing more clarity in regards to it. If Part 3 follows suit, I think we'll get an answer. As I don't see how her vague "feelings" for Cloud support the narrative of the ZA relationship.

 

[Yoru]

The way the trilogy has been treating Aerith's "feelings" for Cloud, it seems it might be less interpretative going into part 3.

In REMAKE, although vague, a seed is planted on the idea of the "illusion" of love. In Aerith's Chapter 14 resolution, she says to Cloud, but mostly to herself (remake ultimania): "Whatever happens, don't fall in love with me. Even if you think you have its in your imagination." (JP rough translation)

In REBIRTH, this concept of this "illusion or "imagination" or what Aerith is having "feelings" for is explored and we get further context (though one can argue it still has interpretative elements). In the Aerith GS date, Aerith says she initially saw Zack in Cloud. After the dream date, Aerith questions what kind of "suki" (like) she has for him.

However, I think what will make it less interpretative is Zack's role as part of his arc is his relationship with Aerith. Zack is aware that Aerith has "feelings" for Cloud from Marlene. Zack also references it to Cloud when he sees him in the white space: "I'm kinda jealous of you/You've been naughty" (JP rough translation) From a storytelling POV, its an interesting choice to have Zack be given this information and kinda be bothered by it. This indicates that a conflict has been setup for him.

On the premise there is a ZA reunion (romantic), I am inclined to think that all of this has been set up to be resolved in the next game. Seeing how Aerith's "feelings" for Cloud is kinda the elephant in the room regarding the ZA relationship status, I don't think Aerith confessing her love to Zack is enough to resolve it as Zack is aware of the Cloud "feelings" and he needs to know where he stands. And I don't think its in Zack's character to pursue Aerith if she had unresolved feelings.

Even though there has not been direct confirmation of what Aerith's "feelings" for Cloud entails, the information presented in REMAKE and REBIRTH seems to be providing more clarity in regards to it. If Part 3 follows suit, I think we'll get an answer. As I don't see how her vague "feelings" for Cloud support the narrative of the ZA relationship.

Thing is... they're dead. I think your development is quite realistic in a world where the three would co-exist on the same plane. But they don't. Whatever her feelings for Cloud were, they no longer matter.

That's why her reunion with Zack doesn't necessarily need to “fix” this problem. As long as they know what happened and how they both died, it'll be enough to keep the flame alive. Because even in the unknown “he never gave her a reason not to love him”. She'll just be happy to have found him again. I don't think Zack will need anything more to stay with her. Even more so if she's the one looking for him.

Since the souls of people are made up of lifestream wouldn't a construct made by the life stream in essence be the same as the actual person? That definitely seems to be a running theme in this story.

Yes and no ? I think that's way more abstract than that. Like it is said in AC. The dead are not really there. If Cetra ghost was a real thing... I think Aerith and Zack would have appeared in front of Cloud a long time ago to let him know that all was well with them, that they were happy and that he should be too. But no. He's alone. That's because it has to come from the person. It's literally a staging of the famous “loved ones are always in our hearts.”

It's from the moment Tifa lectures him that he begins to hear Aerith. And it's when he's freed of his guilt that he sees Aerith and Zack leave happily. Once again, an extremely faithful representation of what's going on in his head.

So yes, in short I think it's more complicated than just talking to the person. Obviously Aerith has concrete actions that are reflected in reality (magic water in the church, the super phone subscription) that prove that part of her still exists within the planet. But they're not really there either. Tifa “feels” her presence. Cloud sees them at the end. But it's more spiritual than anything else.

 

[looneymoon]

The Aerith in the ending being the one we know (possible?) and Cloud being complete cuckoo bananas (absolutely the case) aren't really mutually exclusive. The entire game everyone acts so weirdly nonchalant to the giant elephant in the room that is Cloud losing it. It could very well be the case that her interaction with him at the end is just more of the same. I know that is an anticlimactic and unsatisfying takeaway what when the amount of suspense they've set up regarding all this, but that is exactly why it's the one I'm going with lol.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Thing is... they're dead. I think your development is quite realistic in a world where the three would co-exist on the same plane. But they don't. Whatever her feelings for Cloud were, they no longer matter.

That's why her reunion with Zack doesn't necessarily need to “fix” this problem. As long as they know what happened and how they both died, it'll be enough to keep the flame alive. Because even in the unknown “he never gave her a reason not to love him”. She'll just be happy to have found him again. I don't think Zack will need anything more to stay with her. Even more so if she's the one looking for him.



Yes and no ? I think that's way more abstract than that. Like it is said in AC. The dead are not really there. If Cetra ghost was a real thing... I think Aerith and Zack would have appeared in front of Cloud a long time ago to let him know that all was well with them, that they were happy and that he should be too. But no. He's alone. That's because it has to come from the person. It's literally a staging of the famous “loved ones are always in our hearts.”

It's from the moment Tifa lectures him that he begins to hear Aerith. And it's when he's freed of his guilt that he sees Aerith and Zack leave happily. Once again, an extremely faithful representation of what's going on in his head.

So yes, in short I think it's more complicated than just talking to the person. Obviously Aerith has concrete actions that are reflected in reality (magic water in the church, the super phone subscription) that prove that part of her still exists within the planet. But they're not really there either. Tifa “feels” her presence. Cloud sees them at the end. But it's more spiritual than anything else.

Yeah, from what I gather, an individual’s Lifestream contains their memories/knowledge gathered over their life. If they enter with regret/despair, then the LS has a function to “excise” those negative emotions through these worlds. That’s why they’re destined to end, because they aren’t meant to go on forever.

Your musings about AC’s use of Aerith’s visions also gets me thinking: what if the LS sequence is justified through shared memories/experiences and that’s why Tifa is the only person who could help Cloud through all of it.

So that’s why the sequence is limited to Nibelheim, where their memories overlap but it’s through their shared perspective that both get a full picture of those key events. That’s why Tifa sees things through Cloud’s eyes, but because his subconscious is absent, she can’t know his thoughts and feelings during those events.

I dunno, I feel like I’m rambling but I’m basically agreeing that it’s all basically spiritual and that’s why hopes, dreams, and memories have more power in the LS than anywhere else.

Also, Zack hasn’t yet said the speech to Cloud, passing on his legacy, his hopes and dreams to him in the form of the Buster Sword. If Rebirth Zack ever heard those words, it would all click for him, and any reservations would instantly go away.

 

[Yoru]

The Aerith in the ending being the one we know (possible?) and Cloud being complete cuckoo bananas (absolutely the case) aren't really mutually exclusive. The entire game everyone acts so weirdly nonchalant to the giant elephant in the room that is Cloud losing it. It could very well be the case that her interaction with him at the end is just more of the same. I know that is an anticlimactic and unsatisfying takeaway what when the amount of suspense they've set up regarding all this, but that is exactly why it's the one I'm going with lol.

We see two things at the end.

An Aerith who can't interact with the others. She's just there. Nanaki can only feel her presence. Nothing concrete.

And the one Cloud can talk to. But she strangely uses phrases already heard in Remake/Rebirth. It's as if Cloud is playing a “recording”.

I think that when you're dead in FF7, you can't interact with the living. We're in another plane. It's just the game showing us that yes, Aerith will always be near us watching over us.

But the one Cloud sees is a construct of his mind.

tl;dr: Aerith, who doesn't talk to anyone and is only seen saying “Goodbye”, is the real ghost Aerith. Aerith talking to Cloud is just his mind making a strange mix.

 

[pxl_pushr]

We see two things at the end.

An Aerith who can't interact with the others. She's just there. Nanaki can only feel her presence. Nothing concrete.

And the one Cloud can talk to. But she strangely uses phrases already heard in Remake/Rebirth. It's as if Cloud is playing a “recording”.

I think that when you're dead in FF7, you can't interact with the living. We're in another plane. It's just the game showing us that yes, Aerith will always be near us watching over us.

But the one Cloud sees is a construct of his mind.

tl;dr: Aerith, who doesn't talk to anyone and is only seen saying “Goodbye”, is the real ghost Aerith. Aerith talking to Cloud is just his mind making a strange mix.

I think that’s the trick: everyone is right.

Ghost Aerith being the one that we hear say goodbye

Delusion Aerith talking to Cloud in this bizarre way that’s just a little bit off

And the Jenova theorists are sniffing near what’s going on. My current HC is that Jenova cells don’t change someone who went through SOLDIER treatments, they just make you more of what you already are, and you come off as a weirdo because of it.

Cloud has always had a hard time accepting failure ( or at least what he sees as failure ) so Jenova cells just juice his ability delude himself to the point that he can rewrite his own memories on the fly when presented with undeniable facts.

Jenova isn’t the cake or the icing, it’s the sprinkles or those little chocolate shavings that you don’t think twice about.

 

[Eerie]

I think "our" Aerith is only the one who says goodbye to Yuffie and Red+Tifa (and I think Cloud doesn't necessarily pay attention to her then so he isn't seeing her; in the illusions where he creates her, he is always in sight of her and paying attention to her. So when she's near the Tiny Bronco, there's too much weird stuff going on so I think that one is an illusion made up by Cloud or Jenova. For their chat... yeah I don't think it's "our" Aerith either.

At first I thought it was sweet but then... it was too off. Especially in how she wanted him to go after Sephiroth instead of taking care of himself. I think Aerith said goodbye to Cloud in that AC/C imagery after their fight so she didn't need to tell him goodbye again. I just found it weird to have so many goodbyes, but it makes sense to me that here it's not her. If you think about it, in the dream date, she says goodbye as her "true" self, after their fight it's "our" Aerith who told him goodbye and in the last part it's his mind/Jenova playing tricks.

And of course at the very end, we see true Aerith waving at the party (no Cloud to imagine her there).

So I think the trick is wether we see Cloud in sight looking at her or not to know if it's the true Aerith.