SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

The way the trilogy has been treating Aerith's "feelings" for Cloud, it seems it might be less interpretative going into part 3.

In REMAKE, although vague, a seed is planted on the idea of the "illusion" of love. In Aerith's Chapter 14 resolution, she says to Cloud, but mostly to herself (remake ultimania): "Whatever happens, don't fall in love with me. Even if you think you have its in your imagination." (JP rough translation)

In REBIRTH, this concept of this "illusion or "imagination" or what Aerith is having "feelings" for is explored and we get further context (though one can argue it still has interpretative elements). In the Aerith GS date, Aerith says she initially saw Zack in Cloud. After the dream date, Aerith questions what kind of "suki" (like) she has for him.

However, I think what will make it less interpretative is Zack's role as part of his arc is his relationship with Aerith. Zack is aware that Aerith has "feelings" for Cloud from Marlene. Zack also references it to Cloud when he sees him in the white space: "I'm kinda jealous of you/You've been naughty" (JP rough translation) From a storytelling POV, its an interesting choice to have Zack be given this information and kinda be bothered by it. This indicates that a conflict has been setup for him.

On the premise there is a ZA reunion (romantic), I am inclined to think that all of this has been set up to be resolved in the next game. Seeing how Aerith's "feelings" for Cloud is kinda the elephant in the room regarding the ZA relationship status, I don't think Aerith confessing her love to Zack is enough to resolve it as Zack is aware of the Cloud "feelings" and he needs to know where he stands. And I don't think its in Zack's character to pursue Aerith if she had unresolved feelings.

Even though there has not been direct confirmation of what Aerith's "feelings" for Cloud entails, the information presented in REMAKE and REBIRTH seems to be providing more clarity in regards to it. If Part 3 follows suit, I think we'll get an answer. As I don't see how her vague "feelings" for Cloud support the narrative of the ZA relationship.

Thing is... they're dead. I think your development is quite realistic in a world where the three would co-exist on the same plane. But they don't. Whatever her feelings for Cloud were, they no longer matter.

That's why her reunion with Zack doesn't necessarily need to “fix” this problem. As long as they know what happened and how they both died, it'll be enough to keep the flame alive. Because even in the unknown “he never gave her a reason not to love him”. She'll just be happy to have found him again. I don't think Zack will need anything more to stay with her. Even more so if she's the one looking for him.

Since the souls of people are made up of lifestream wouldn't a construct made by the life stream in essence be the same as the actual person? That definitely seems to be a running theme in this story.

Yes and no ? I think that's way more abstract than that. Like it is said in AC. The dead are not really there. If Cetra ghost was a real thing... I think Aerith and Zack would have appeared in front of Cloud a long time ago to let him know that all was well with them, that they were happy and that he should be too. But no. He's alone. That's because it has to come from the person. It's literally a staging of the famous “loved ones are always in our hearts.”

It's from the moment Tifa lectures him that he begins to hear Aerith. And it's when he's freed of his guilt that he sees Aerith and Zack leave happily. Once again, an extremely faithful representation of what's going on in his head.

So yes, in short I think it's more complicated than just talking to the person. Obviously Aerith has concrete actions that are reflected in reality (magic water in the church, the super phone subscription) that prove that part of her still exists within the planet. But they're not really there either. Tifa “feels” her presence. Cloud sees them at the end. But it's more spiritual than anything else.

 

[looneymoon]

The Aerith in the ending being the one we know (possible?) and Cloud being complete cuckoo bananas (absolutely the case) aren't really mutually exclusive. The entire game everyone acts so weirdly nonchalant to the giant elephant in the room that is Cloud losing it. It could very well be the case that her interaction with him at the end is just more of the same. I know that is an anticlimactic and unsatisfying takeaway what when the amount of suspense they've set up regarding all this, but that is exactly why it's the one I'm going with lol.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Thing is... they're dead. I think your development is quite realistic in a world where the three would co-exist on the same plane. But they don't. Whatever her feelings for Cloud were, they no longer matter.

That's why her reunion with Zack doesn't necessarily need to “fix” this problem. As long as they know what happened and how they both died, it'll be enough to keep the flame alive. Because even in the unknown “he never gave her a reason not to love him”. She'll just be happy to have found him again. I don't think Zack will need anything more to stay with her. Even more so if she's the one looking for him.



Yes and no ? I think that's way more abstract than that. Like it is said in AC. The dead are not really there. If Cetra ghost was a real thing... I think Aerith and Zack would have appeared in front of Cloud a long time ago to let him know that all was well with them, that they were happy and that he should be too. But no. He's alone. That's because it has to come from the person. It's literally a staging of the famous “loved ones are always in our hearts.”

It's from the moment Tifa lectures him that he begins to hear Aerith. And it's when he's freed of his guilt that he sees Aerith and Zack leave happily. Once again, an extremely faithful representation of what's going on in his head.

So yes, in short I think it's more complicated than just talking to the person. Obviously Aerith has concrete actions that are reflected in reality (magic water in the church, the super phone subscription) that prove that part of her still exists within the planet. But they're not really there either. Tifa “feels” her presence. Cloud sees them at the end. But it's more spiritual than anything else.

Yeah, from what I gather, an individual’s Lifestream contains their memories/knowledge gathered over their life. If they enter with regret/despair, then the LS has a function to “excise” those negative emotions through these worlds. That’s why they’re destined to end, because they aren’t meant to go on forever.

Your musings about AC’s use of Aerith’s visions also gets me thinking: what if the LS sequence is justified through shared memories/experiences and that’s why Tifa is the only person who could help Cloud through all of it.

So that’s why the sequence is limited to Nibelheim, where their memories overlap but it’s through their shared perspective that both get a full picture of those key events. That’s why Tifa sees things through Cloud’s eyes, but because his subconscious is absent, she can’t know his thoughts and feelings during those events.

I dunno, I feel like I’m rambling but I’m basically agreeing that it’s all basically spiritual and that’s why hopes, dreams, and memories have more power in the LS than anywhere else.

Also, Zack hasn’t yet said the speech to Cloud, passing on his legacy, his hopes and dreams to him in the form of the Buster Sword. If Rebirth Zack ever heard those words, it would all click for him, and any reservations would instantly go away.

 

[Yoru]

The Aerith in the ending being the one we know (possible?) and Cloud being complete cuckoo bananas (absolutely the case) aren't really mutually exclusive. The entire game everyone acts so weirdly nonchalant to the giant elephant in the room that is Cloud losing it. It could very well be the case that her interaction with him at the end is just more of the same. I know that is an anticlimactic and unsatisfying takeaway what when the amount of suspense they've set up regarding all this, but that is exactly why it's the one I'm going with lol.

We see two things at the end.

An Aerith who can't interact with the others. She's just there. Nanaki can only feel her presence. Nothing concrete.

And the one Cloud can talk to. But she strangely uses phrases already heard in Remake/Rebirth. It's as if Cloud is playing a “recording”.

I think that when you're dead in FF7, you can't interact with the living. We're in another plane. It's just the game showing us that yes, Aerith will always be near us watching over us.

But the one Cloud sees is a construct of his mind.

tl;dr: Aerith, who doesn't talk to anyone and is only seen saying “Goodbye”, is the real ghost Aerith. Aerith talking to Cloud is just his mind making a strange mix.

 

[pxl_pushr]

We see two things at the end.

An Aerith who can't interact with the others. She's just there. Nanaki can only feel her presence. Nothing concrete.

And the one Cloud can talk to. But she strangely uses phrases already heard in Remake/Rebirth. It's as if Cloud is playing a “recording”.

I think that when you're dead in FF7, you can't interact with the living. We're in another plane. It's just the game showing us that yes, Aerith will always be near us watching over us.

But the one Cloud sees is a construct of his mind.

tl;dr: Aerith, who doesn't talk to anyone and is only seen saying “Goodbye”, is the real ghost Aerith. Aerith talking to Cloud is just his mind making a strange mix.

I think that’s the trick: everyone is right.

Ghost Aerith being the one that we hear say goodbye

Delusion Aerith talking to Cloud in this bizarre way that’s just a little bit off

And the Jenova theorists are sniffing near what’s going on. My current HC is that Jenova cells don’t change someone who went through SOLDIER treatments, they just make you more of what you already are, and you come off as a weirdo because of it.

Cloud has always had a hard time accepting failure ( or at least what he sees as failure ) so Jenova cells just juice his ability delude himself to the point that he can rewrite his own memories on the fly when presented with undeniable facts.

Jenova isn’t the cake or the icing, it’s the sprinkles or those little chocolate shavings that you don’t think twice about.

 

[Eerie]

I think "our" Aerith is only the one who says goodbye to Yuffie and Red+Tifa (and I think Cloud doesn't necessarily pay attention to her then so he isn't seeing her; in the illusions where he creates her, he is always in sight of her and paying attention to her. So when she's near the Tiny Bronco, there's too much weird stuff going on so I think that one is an illusion made up by Cloud or Jenova. For their chat... yeah I don't think it's "our" Aerith either.

At first I thought it was sweet but then... it was too off. Especially in how she wanted him to go after Sephiroth instead of taking care of himself. I think Aerith said goodbye to Cloud in that AC/C imagery after their fight so she didn't need to tell him goodbye again. I just found it weird to have so many goodbyes, but it makes sense to me that here it's not her. If you think about it, in the dream date, she says goodbye as her "true" self, after their fight it's "our" Aerith who told him goodbye and in the last part it's his mind/Jenova playing tricks.

And of course at the very end, we see true Aerith waving at the party (no Cloud to imagine her there).

So I think the trick is wether we see Cloud in sight looking at her or not to know if it's the true Aerith.

 

[Yoru]

We should also bear in mind that everything that happens at the end may be very different in reality. The easter egg in the credits is not innocent. It's far too precise.

 

[Eerie]

We should also bear in mind that everything that happens at the end may be very different in reality. The easter egg in the credits is not innocent. It's far too precise.

I am sure that true Aerith is also there when he hallucinates fake Aerith; but he can't see her anymore (he fought Sephiroth in the Lifestream with her, that guy from the video earlier was wrong, it wasn't a reflection of the lake it was the Lifestream as told by the Ultimania for Remake and this is (one of) the hint(s) that she's dead). So Jenova most probably creates this hallucination out of his own memories and how Cloud thinks Aerith was (hence the conversation also having her happy he's going after Sephiroth).

We only partly see what Aerith is doing I think. But we're seeing Cloud hallucinating her and creating a world where she still is alive, just like he created a world where he had been a SOLDIER when Tifa found him, one where Zack didn't exist because remembering his death would be too much for his fragile mind.

 

[pxl_pushr]

We should also bear in mind that everything that happens at the end may be very different in reality. The easter egg in the credits is not innocent. It's far too precise.

Yeah, I think there are a few things that are murky because it’s kinda hard to see how certain mechanics work.

What exactly is the Edge of Creation and why is Cloud pulled there so much? For example

 

[Sacky]

Yeah, I think there are a few things that are murky because it’s kinda hard to see how certain mechanics work.

What exactly is the Edge of Creation and why is Cloud pulled there so much? For example

i thought edge of creation was another layer of Clouds subconscious which is
why its more fractured in rebirth and Sephiroth tries attacking Cloud with Whispers there?
Could be wrong though

 

[abzy1200]

So, Hamaguchi just nuked some bs.

What do you know, they didn't spend a bunch of time making dates just to have them ignored and labeled "fanservice".

Here's the tweet I saw.

EDIT: Another interesting thing Hamaguchi said in regards to the dates:

So yeah, more evidence that the affinity system only existed in Rebirth as a callback to the original, not because the devs actually wanted to add it.

or he's just joking, but all jokes have an element of truth to them.

 

[shady]

Yes Hamaguchi confirmed on todays livestream that care was put into each invidiual date, and that not one of them stands above the other, they are all equal in terms of importance.

Judge for yourself what the outcome of each date was knowing that information.

 

[Eerie]

Here is the video BTW, but it's so long that I have put it off for now xD

 

[Yoru]

Judge for yourself what the outcome of each date was knowing that information.

The return of the interlocked fingers theory

 

[nars305]

The return of the interlocked fingers theory

View attachment 16933

I hope I’ll get to also see that kissing was reserved for prostitutes again. My favorite take ever.

 

[ChaosandConfusion]

But now that I've seen the scene again, it reminds me of what Cloud's mo-cap actor said about how Cloud shows himself becoming more vulnerable and displaying his true feelings. When he's fully facing someone (like Tifa in Gongaga) and answering her honestly, I think this is what his mo-cap actor meant by him showing his true seself

This and Sephi saying Jenova can become those you love with the ending maybe having Jenovaerith influence is making me think it's both women. There are some other things too.

Also why do people think CT share a room b/c when I read CoT it said Cloud has his own room.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I've been reading this manga called Parasyte (1989-1994) and I thought it was interesting because it's a bit like FF7, I think. I probably need to spoiler this but the gist of it is that

Spoiler: Parasyte spoilers

the main character, Shinichi Izumi, gets his right arm eaten by a parasite and afterwards they share a body. Lots of battles and horror twists happen. He has a girl he likes, Satomi Murano, from before he became infected. This girl is basically his "human heart" who liked the human, weak side of him. Then through happenstance he met another girl, Kana Kimishima, who likes the strong parasite side of him. Well, Kana eventually gets attacked by a parasite and she dies in Shinichi's arms while he finds out that she liked him. He's troubled by this and Murano is troubled by this, not only because Shinichi blew off a date with her to go meet Kana before she died and because Shinichi is "so cold about it" (he's most likely dissociating). Murano tries to get Shinichi to open up about it but he can't so for now the two have broken up.

Also why do people think CT share a room b/c when I read CoT it said Cloud has his own room.

Because Tifa asks Cloud if he loves her in the middle of the night, after which he wakes up and then goes back to sleep. And the room could just as well mean his office, I think. But people who have read CoT more recently can reply to this, lol. Edit: I mean, "his own room" probably means his office.

 

[Ryushikaze]

This and Sephi saying Jenova can become those you love with the ending maybe having Jenovaerith influence is making me think it's both women. There are some other things too.

Also why do people think CT share a room b/c when I read CoT it said Cloud has his own room.

Because of the scene where Tifa asks Cloud "do you love me/ do you love Marlene" Cloud does not react to her presence as being out of the ordinary and falls back asleep immediately thereafter. He's not on edge or put off by this. So either they sleep together or he's just plain totally cool with her being by him while he sleeps.
Also, the room people call Cloud's "bedroom" is only referred to as "the room Cloud used as his office" in the narration, and once by Tifa as "room" technically not even your room, but that's to do with Japan and omitting identifiers a lot of the time.
Third, have you actually looked at Cloud's office? Door has a clear glass window and no "room" amenities aside from an extremely crappy cot.

 

[pxl_pushr]

This and Sephi saying Jenova can become those you love with the ending maybe having Jenovaerith influence is making me think it's both women. There are some other things too.

Also why do people think CT share a room b/c when I read CoT it said Cloud has his own room.

Ehh if you’re going to use the whole “those you love, those you fear” thing, you also have to use how it’s described in the temple of the ancients. Jenova basically uses the form of loved ones to confuse them ( brothers, sisters, lovers, etc ). I actually don’t put too much stock in it myself in either camp because it feels like a more poetic way to say Jenova will use the most effective form to manipulate you.

I also think Cloud’s own mind is doing the heavy lifting in the ending cutscene. Jenova cells are just giving it more juice to deepen the delusion so he’ll follow the reunion.

 

[Yoru]

Because Tifa asks Cloud if he loves her in the middle of the night, after which he wakes up and then goes back to sleep. And the room could just as well mean his office, I think. But people who have read CoT more recently can reply to this, lol. Edit: I mean, "his own room" probably means his office.

We only know that Marlene and Tifa cleaned a room that is now Cloud's Office since he started a delivery service.
Case of Tifa clearly shows that the euphoria of victory over Sephiroth quickly turns to doubt and uncertainty. Cloud and Tifa are two traumatized beings who must learn to live normally again.

Tifa clearly has doubts throughout the story. She doesn't know where they stand. She thought the end of FF7 would be a new beginning, but Cloud soon begins to hide things from her.

Personally, I think they're not sharing the same bed. Maybe the same room at most. Before Marlene had her room with Denzel, she slept with Tifa most of the time.

I think we're in that very Asian configuration of the young couple living in the family home, without too much privacy and so on.

And that's why I'm so pissed off if AC is really the sequel to FF7R. Because Cloud is nothing like our current Cloud. He flees from conversations, he implies all the time that Tifa is going to scold him like a child. I think it kills the whole build-up of their relationship in the games.

 

[Ryushikaze]

We only know that Marlene and Tifa cleaned a room that is now Cloud's Office since he started a delivery service.
Case of Tifa clearly shows that the euphoria of victory over Sephiroth quickly turns to doubt and uncertainty. Cloud and Tifa are two traumatized beings who must learn to live normally again.

Tifa clearly has doubts throughout the story. She doesn't know where they stand. She thought the end of FF7 would be a new beginning, but Cloud soon begins to hide things from her.

Personally, I think they're not sharing the same bed. Maybe the same room at most. Before Marlene had her room with Denzel, she slept with Tifa most of the time.

I think we're in that very Asian configuration of the young couple living in the family home, without too much privacy and so on.

And that's why I'm so pissed off if AC is really the sequel to FF7R. Because Cloud is nothing like our current Cloud. He flees from conversations, he implies all the time that Tifa is going to scold him like a child. I think it kills the whole build-up of their relationship in the games.

Just for clarification, the "Marlene Slept with Tifa every night" was mentioned as occurring up until the night of Barret leaving to solve his own problems, which was literally one week after the building was built.

 

[pxl_pushr]

It’s the main reason why I’m hoping AC gets redone on some way, because I flat out don’t believe that ANY of these characters would behave like they do in ACC even after 2 years of sitting with their traumas.

If Cloud comes back and he feels like ACC Cloud, I’ll facepalm hard enough to give myself an alter ego.

 

[Yoru]

Just for clarification, the "Marlene Slept with Tifa every night" was mentioned as occurring up until the night of Barret leaving to solve his own problems, which was literally one week after the building was built.

Yes. All I'm saying is that they've never had the opportunity to live like a normal couple. They don't even have enough food for the bar in the early days.

And pretty soon Cloud starts his life on the road, making an effort to come home in the evenings when Denzel enters the family to spend time with the kids. And a few days after things seem to have calmed down at last, he disappears.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yes. All I'm saying is that they've never had the opportunity to live like a normal couple. They don't even have enough food for the bar in the early days.

And pretty soon Cloud starts his life on the road, making an effort to come home in the evenings when Denzel enters the family to spend time with the kids. And a few days after things seem to have calmed down at last, he disappears.

I think the period during which are normal is supposed to read as holding for quite some time, general, but yes, the two have always had to be taking care of kids rather than getting to have a home to just themselves.
I also want to see a redo of ACC. We could focus on Cloud trying desperately to find a cure for Denzel (and himself) so he can protect his happy home life.

 

[Yoru]

I think the period during which are normal is supposed to read as holding for quite some time, general, but yes, the two have always had to be taking care of kids rather than getting to have a home to just themselves.
I also want to see a redo of ACC. We could focus on Cloud trying desperately to find a cure for Denzel (and himself) so he can protect his happy home life.

Sadly I don't think she could enjoy a normal period for a very long time. And yes, I want to see a redo too.