SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

Yeah the problem is when it got big; Nomura became involved and wanted nothing but visuals so AC ended up as the mess it was. The short story would’ve been much better.

 

[Ryeleigh]

By the way, when I said that about flip phones, I didn't mean it was an actual thing. I just meant it felt that way because, you know, AC being the way it is, lol. I would've much preferred the original short story, I think. Even if there's no way of saying how they would've executed that either, of course.

 

[eleamaya]

And I was just listening to the track most associated with Kana (Next to You) while writing a fic today. What a coincidence
But as someone who had at least seen that anime, they do have similarities, yeah.

There's one more possible similarity that will come up later x3

That they have sex before final battle?

 

[Yoru]

As far as AC is concerned, it's hard to get to the bottom of the story, because they'll never say explicitly that it's just an order to make easy money on FF7. Which, let's face it, is what the Compilation project is all about.

All we know from the itw with Nojima is that in his mind, post-FF7 was an everyday story about the couple Tifa and Cloud, but that Nomura came to him wanting a high-stakes action movie with an emo Cloud “because that's how people remember him”, so he had to adapt and come up with something that made sense.

When you look at it as a whole, it does. The state of the world with a destroyed Shinra, Sephiroth resisting and not dissolving into the LS and his attempt to corrupt the planet right to its core. It all makes sense. It's the execution that's not so great.

 

[Empyrea]

That they have sex before final battle?

This and an environmental message tangent near the end.

Maybe it was obvious, but I sure as hell didn't expect that to come into play.

 

[eleamaya]

This and an environmental message tangent near the end.

Maybe it was obvious, but I sure as hell didn't expect that to come into play.

I read the manga after the first live action movie (2014) because of curiosity. I think that's why I dont remember Kana at all, it seems the character doesnt exist in the movie. What left me impressions in both manga & live action are Shinichi's mother and the female parasyte who protect her baby. So I check online mangascan about Kana, and whoa! I get the similarity.

 

[pxl_pushr]

As far as AC is concerned, it's hard to get to the bottom of the story, because they'll never say explicitly that it's just an order to make easy money on FF7. Which, let's face it, is what the Compilation project is all about.

All we know from the itw with Nojima is that in his mind, post-FF7 was an everyday story about the couple Tifa and Cloud, but that Nomura came to him wanting a high-stakes action movie with an emo Cloud “because that's how people remember him”, so he had to adapt and come up with something that made sense.

When you look at it as a whole, it does. The state of the world with a destroyed Shinra, Sephiroth resisting and not dissolving into the LS and his attempt to corrupt the planet right to its core. It all makes sense. It's the execution that's not so great.

Oh yeah, the premise of Advent Children isn’t inherently bad, but you can definitely feel that it started as something else.

Honestly, if they end part 3 with the original concept that Nojima wanted, a happy day with Cloud, Tifa, and the kids, then I’d consider it a closed book imo. ACC was the low of their relationship, leave me on a high note and leave me with the closure that they end up happy.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

ACC is begging for a redo, as is Hamaguchi’s and others desire, because the nature of the original ACC as it exists does not serve the characters as well as it should because of ACC being essentially one long, big, extended trailer for the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII as a whole.

It was @insanehobbit and their (IMO) definitive essay on the LTD that first made me appreciate that, ACC, is just one big excuse to promote the other (at the time) future entries of the Compilation.

It’s why the Turks have greater presence and more screentime than the other main FFVII heroes do, cause Before Crisis was in the planning which is heavily focused on and centred around the Turks. (They could have featured Reno and Rude in a way that didn’t reduce them to some cheesy comedic double act as they did, but hey if Cloud and Tifa’s characterisations are off, why shouldn’t the supporting casts be also? )

Also why Zack is made more tangible a presence in the story and Cloud’s arc (to set the stage for Crisis Core) and why Vincent of all people has as much time as Tifa of all the other FFVII heroes (to set the stage for Dirge of Cerberus)

So when you consider ACC as less a concrete, more thoroughly laid out story post FFVII as it is a reel of what is to come in the Compilation… and in light of the stronger, more firmly established characterisations in the retrilogy… it would be a massive disservice not to address how ACC as it stands fails ALL the characters as they are, and how it desperately needs a redo with all the changes and expansions of the characters and their arcs from the retrilogy considered in the redone Advent Children/post-Meteorfall continuity

 

[Eerie]

ACC is begging for a redo, as is Hamaguchi’s and others desire, because the nature of the original ACC as it exists does not serve the characters as well as it should because of ACC being essentially one long, big, extended trailer for the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII as a whole.

It was @insanehobbit and their (IMO) definitive essay on the LTD that first made me appreciate that, ACC, is just one big excuse to promote the other (at the time) future entries of the Compilation.

It’s why the Turks have greater presence and more screentime than the other main FFVII heroes do, cause Before Crisis was in the planning which is heavily focused on and centred around the Turks. (They could have featured Reno and Rude in a way that didn’t reduce them to some cheesy comedic double act as they did, but hey if Cloud and Tifa’s characterisations are off, why shouldn’t the supporting casts be also? )

Also why Zack is made more tangible a presence in the story and Cloud’s arc (to set the stage for Crisis Core) and why Vincent of all people has as much time as Tifa of all the other FFVII heroes (to set the stage for Dirge of Cerberus)

So when you consider ACC as less a concrete, more thoroughly laid out story post FFVII as it is a reel of what is to come in the Compilation… and in light of the stronger, more firmly established characterisations in the retrilogy… it would be a massive disservice not to address how ACC as it stands fails ALL the characters as they are, and how it desperately needs a redo with all the changes and expansions of the characters and their arcs from the retrilogy considered in the redone Advent Children/post-Meteorfall continuity

While I agree generally with this, ACC came after CC IIRC. AC didn't really set up Zack as much as ACC paid hommage to him and his relationship with Cloud and Aerith. I always felt that it was CC that allowed ACC to exist as it does, because they needed people to know who Zack was before pushing him and Zerith that hard.

 

[Yoru]

While I agree generally with this, ACC came after CC IIRC. AC didn't really set up Zack as much as ACC paid hommage to him and his relationship with Cloud and Aerith. I always felt that it was CC that allowed ACC to exist as it does, because they needed people to know who Zack was before pushing him and Zerith that hard.

100%. As a OG Zack fan, I can tell you that they've added a lot to ACC thanks to CC's new popularity and their desire to push for Zerith.

In AC, there was only the “we're friends, aren't we?” truck scene and the final farewell to scrape together a few screenshots...

 

[nars305]

I want sort of the opposite, but also in the pursuit of laying AC bullshit to rest. I want it fully redone, with explicit motivations discussed. Staring at camera if need be.

Yeah it’s just *my wishful thinking that obviously will never happen.

I still maintain that if I feel fulfilled from what the last part shows then a lot of my gripes will fizzle out. Like if CT and ZA are perfectly fleshed out and happy then I’ll ride that high and be at peace.

I’d want AC redone or even just something new that’s after if the last part leaves me feeling unfulfilled in the romance aspect.

 

[Ryeleigh]

That they have sex before final battle?

This and an environmental message tangent near the end.

Maybe it was obvious, but I sure as hell didn't expect that to come into play.

I finished reading it today, lol.

To be fair, the manga started with an environmental message, had some of it in the middle, and at the end while being a pretty basic battle manga with some horror and gore. Maybe the battles were better animated, I don't know.

But I thought the similarities with FF7 were interesting, especially since Parasyte is apparently pretty popular and it was published before FF7.

 

[abzy1200]

So, do we think there's enough reason to believe that Barret was almost strictly talking about Tifa in his GS date?

I know that if we look at the bigger picture it can be taken as ominous foreshadowing, but I'm talking about from Barret's pov. I mean, only like what? Two days before this Tifa's life was in serious jeapordy? For all they knew she was a goner.

As far as I know, at that point Aerith hadn't been in a situation nearly that dangerous. She had been in danger, sure, but not swallowed-by-a-massive-weapon-whale-that-swam-underneath-the-mako-with-no-way-to-know-if-it-was-going-to-resurface danger. And even if they recovered her, would it even be certain that she wouldn't be mako poisoned?

So, from Barret's pov, it really makes the most sense for it to be about Tifa, right? Unless I'm missing something.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So, do we think there's enough reason to believe that Barret was almost strictly talking about Tifa in his GS date?

I know that if we look at the bigger picture it can be taken as ominous foreshadowing, but I'm talking about from Barret's pov. I mean, only like what? Two days before this Tifa's life was in serious jeapordy? For all they knew she was a goner.

As far as I know, at that point Aerith hadn't been in a situation nearly that dangerous. She had been in danger, sure, but not swallowed-by-a-massive-weapon-whale-that-swam-underneath-the-mako-with-no-way-to-know-if-it-was-going-to-resurface danger. And even if they recovered her, would it even be certain that she wouldn't be mako poisoned?

So, from Barret's pov, it really makes the most sense for it to be about Tifa, right? Unless I'm missing something.

There is no doubt in my mind that Barrett is referring to Tifa. She's like his little sister, and he can clearly tell the two of them have feelings for each other. He teases Cloud about wanting to get back to "your baby" after the reactor bombing, after all.

I've been peeking in on Reddit, and it's amazing the sheer disconnect there is between people who ship CA as endgame and those who don't. The alternate character reads just boggle the mind.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Cloud was also communicating without words with the hug and the kiss.

Like I said, you'd think it was a theme for these two.

They'd fail to pull it just to spite me, while still driving into metaphorical walls.

You're not wrong.

It does show you just how strong the cope and deny is right now, though.

The cope is strong with this group, oh yes.

Yeah, under the hypothesis the reason for his being almost inhuman pre-SOLDIER style augments is also the reason he doesn't make it into SOLDIER.

Seems about right for this plot to me.

They're more likely to be superheated vapor or plasma against the sides of their sunken cost tunnel.

Even flash boiled into vapor, they're still just too dense eh?

We are making it so. "Bonk, old chap! Bonk!"

I like it. We may have to replace Jarate though.

That's more to do with Matt's purpose in life is to get beaten up. The man lost a fight to a vacuum cleaner. Not a man with a vacuum, the vacuum. Yes, it was during Inferno and it was possessed, but still.

Let's be fair here, Matt is among the best trained fighters in all of Marvel. How does one use martial arts against a vacuum cleaner? It has no vitals to punch, no joints to lock, no nerves to strike. That's a bad matchup for him... AND his purpose is to get beat to shit. He really never had a chance when you think of it that way.

To be happy, to grow up, to have a family, and even to retire.

MC2 we miss you.

Fair.

You can only do so much with the bad mandates, like making her and Quicksilver definitely not Magneto's kids (and briefly not mutants) despite them being both of those things being core facets of their characters across several decades, AUs, alternate dimensions, etc.

At least they're not boning like in Ultimate Marvel.

Typo makers of the world untie!

Subtle, I almost missed that.

Oh, yeah, not since the very beginning- I am still looking side-eye at what they decided to do with Moira MacTaggart- but something that activated when his mind got yanked into the future, or after he died the first time.

Or that time he hosted the Phoenix Force, if it's more recent.

The Arc villains were also the weakest and least interesting, and I think that's why they pivoted to hard into Dark Willow and her out of nowhere end the world plot at the end.

Indeed.

No worries.

None at all.

So few people have it.

So many kinda need it.

Caim's family motto, one presumes.

The bard hired to get a good motto for Caim's family did a bad job and was murdered. So yes, but unofficially.

Especially given in her own words she still likes Zack and sees a lot of him in Cloud.

Word and deed match perfectly, ergo the most parsimonious conclusion is that this is the exact truth.

Yeah, we literally see actual Sephiroth cut down a bunch of people after setting the entire town ablaze. Sephiroth goes out of his way to worsen Cloud's identity issues and finds a picture, an actual picture from the Nibelheim incident to wreck Cloud's sense of self.

Seriously, indirect my ass.

It should annoy you to see. It's bad practice and leads to people peddling all sorts of nonsense.

Indeed, it's important to stay annoyed by this crap. It should not be normalized.

Still we can dream.

Pipe dreams though they be.

They seem to love debating until they get a little bit of pushback and then run off until the next salvo. I peaked at the post history and it seems to be a pattern for this debate and others.

Glad I'm not interested enough to look these people up. That sounds infuriating.

It sort of feels like the plot stops as soon as Aerith dies, but also doesn't get to start until she's on screen either, in these people's eyes.

Ahh the joy of only wanting to acknowledge a fraction of a story.

 

[Sacky]

There is no doubt in my mind that Barrett is referring to Tifa. She's like his little sister, and he can clearly tell the two of them have feelings for each other. He teases Cloud about wanting to get back to "your baby" after the reactor bombing, after all.

I've been peeking in on Reddit, and it's amazing the sheer disconnect there is between people who ship CA as endgame and those who don't. The alternate character reads just boggle the mind.

this about the dream date being happy or about Cloud being flirt in costa del sol date XD.
you might find this thread interesting cause it shows why clerith just can't work in this story
to have a happy ending for everyone.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasyVII/comments/1d4y992

 

[Sacky]

So, do we think there's enough reason to believe that Barret was almost strictly talking about Tifa in his GS date?

I know that if we look at the bigger picture it can be taken as ominous foreshadowing, but I'm talking about from Barret's pov. I mean, only like what? Two days before this Tifa's life was in serious jeapordy? For all they knew she was a goner.

As far as I know, at that point Aerith hadn't been in a situation nearly that dangerous. She had been in danger, sure, but not swallowed-by-a-massive-weapon-whale-that-swam-underneath-the-mako-with-no-way-to-know-if-it-was-going-to-resurface danger. And even if they recovered her, would it even be certain that she wouldn't be mako poisoned?

So, from Barret's pov, it really makes the most sense for it to be about Tifa, right? Unless I'm missing something.

Well, its simple here in Remake and Rebirth I can count on two hands how many conversations Barret and Aerith had. This is one of my disappointments, and Barret doesn't know about Aerith's future death at all but who was just in a near death situation? Tifa in Gongaga. Tifa is basically another one of Barrets daughters in his eyes he clearly sees whats going on between Cloud and Tifa and even commented on it in Nibelhiem flashback.

 

[nars305]

Well, its simple here in Remake and Rebirth I can count on two hands how many conversations Barret and Aerith had. This is one of my disappointments, and Barret doesn't know about Aerith's future death at all but who was just in a near death situation? Tifa in Gongaga. Tifa is basically another one of Barrets daughters in his eyes he clearly sees whats going on between Cloud and Tifa and even commented on it in Nibelhiem flashback.

I can even relate it to Barret saying all this because of how he lost his wife.

I don’t think it’s a bad interpretation, I don’t think of it too hard and just accept it as a sweet moment for Cloud and Barret to talk so deeply.

If I had to relate it to the other characters romance, like you said, he doesn’t really talk to Aerith but he is aware of Tifa and Cloud’s issues in Kalm. In that same breath, I don’t know, is that similar to when Aerith says she and Cloud went on a date as they were leaving Kalm? Dunno, but Tifa, Cloud, and Barret are close.

 

[Sacky]

I can even relate it to Barret saying all this because of how he lost his wife.

I don’t think it’s a bad interpretation, I don’t think of it too hard and just accept it as a sweet moment for Cloud and Barret to talk so deeply.

If I had to relate it to the other characters romance, like you said, he doesn’t really talk to Aerith but he is aware of Tifa and Cloud’s issues in Kalm. In that same breath, I don’t know, is that similar to when Aerith says she and Cloud went on a date as they were leaving Kalm? Dunno, but Tifa, Cloud, and Barret are close.

its more neutral and can fit either way meta wise but really we know deep down

 

[Ryushikaze]

Like I said, you'd think it was a theme for these two.

What? Thematic consistency?That's unpossible!

You're not wrong.

The uh, takes of the last few days have been fascinating.

Seems about right for this plot to me.

A sort of "weakness leads to strength" metaphor.

Even flash boiled into vapor, they're still just too dense eh?

That and lacking clear direction.

I like it. We may have to replace Jarate though.

Winekido.
The wine bottle is still full of piss, mind.

Let's be fair here, Matt is among the best trained fighters in all of Marvel. How does one use martial arts against a vacuum cleaner? It has no vitals to punch, no joints to lock, no nerves to strike. That's a bad matchup for him... AND his purpose is to get beat to shit. He really never had a chance when you think of it that way.

Not a single one. Matt will win a fight but he has to get beaten up either literally or metaphorically in the process.

MC2 we miss you.

MC2 and Renew your Vows are excellent AUs.

At least they're not boning like in Ultimate Marvel.

Small favors, though honestly I'm shocked they haven't pulled a "You're not ACTUALLY related" twist on those two yet.

Though given they rectonned America Chavez's entire backstory for it to make any sort of fucking sense I suppose anything could happen.

Subtle, I almost missed that.

Glad you noticed it.

Or that time he hosted the Phoenix Force, if it's more recent.

Also a perfect time for a secondary mutation.

So many kinda need it.

Desperately so.

The bard hired to get a good motto for Caim's family did a bad job and was murdered. So yes, but unofficially.

So many senseless murders all happening around pure, innocent Caim. It's a testament to his pure soul that he can keep going, keep smiling despite it all.

Word and deed match perfectly, ergo the most parsimonious conclusion is that this is the exact truth.

Yeah but it doesn't match up with the desired conclusion so it HAS to be wrong, despite how much sense it makes.

Seriously, indirect my ass.

It's a perfect example of special pleading.

Indeed, it's important to stay annoyed by this crap. It should not be normalized.

Call out and cast down logical fallacies.

Glad I'm not interested enough to look these people up. That sounds infuriating.

Yeah, I'm only bothering to look these people up because I come across them in the general subreddits posting very very bait-y topics.

Ahh the joy of only wanting to acknowledge a fraction of a story.

Don't like the conclusion of a story? Erase it and all the parts of the story leading up to it!

this about the dream date being happy or about Cloud being flirt in costa del sol date XD.
you might find this thread interesting cause it shows why clerith just can't work in this story
to have a happy ending for everyone.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasyVII/comments/1d4y992

Those and more.
And I read that and I agree with it. I am not worried Pt 3 is not going to wind up the way I predicted, I am gobsmacked at the sheer nonsense many of these people read into what we see on screen and read in text. Like "Marlene said Aerith likes Cloud so she doesn't like Zack any more" when Aerith herself says she does like Cloud and the purpose of that scene is to show that no matter what Aerith is Zack's number 1 priority. Same with the "save her!" call during the Sephy fights.

 

[Ryeleigh]

this about the dream date being happy or about Cloud being flirt in costa del sol date XD.
you might find this thread interesting cause it shows why clerith just can't work in this story
to have a happy ending for everyone.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasyVII/comments/1d4y992

Again with the Zack erasure, lol.

 

[pxl_pushr]

its more neutral and can fit either way meta wise but really we know deep down

I think Barret’s date is ultimately there to direct you to Tifa and Aerith’s dates without sacrificing characterization on his part. It basically sums up their dynamic in Rebirth. What starts as animosity between Cloud and Barret evolves into friendly antagonizing and they both acknowledge respect for eachother.

There’s more reason for him to mean Tifa with his advice, but I think it’s more aimed at Cloud to be more open/forward with his feelings. As a guy who lost friends and loved ones alike, he knows the regret of not saying how you feel more often, so he’s telling Cloud to lay it out there while you can.

Barret is also the only party member who’s seen pre-Cloud Tifa, so he like many others who know her, sees a difference in her demeanor since Cloud showed up.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

What? Thematic consistency?That's unpossible!

You're right, what was I thinking? Lemme just chug pink lemonade until silly thoughts like these pass.

The uh, takes of the last few days have been fascinating.

I noticed that when I returned from my insomnia induced waking nightmare. Swap one nightmare for another, right?

A sort of "weakness leads to strength" metaphor.

That's Cloud alright.

That and lacking clear direction.

It's sad when you can't find "up" on your own. But if course if they looked at a map, they'd see all roads lead to Tifa.

Winekido.

I love it. Also replacing the Razorback with a cheese board.

The wine bottle is still full of piss, mind.

Naturally. But it sounds more polite, and in the end that's all that matters to fancy people right?

Not a single one. Matt will win a fight but he has to get beaten up either literally or metaphorically in the process.

One thing the Netflix series did well. If Matt Murdock appears triumphant, he's either too beaten to keep going or his whole life is on fire. Likely both.

MC2 and Renew your Vows are excellent AUs.

Dad Peter and Mommy M.J. are what the world really needs.

Small favors, though honestly I'm shocked they haven't pulled a "You're not ACTUALLY related" twist on those two yet.

I know they thought about it hard back around 2010 or so, though for the life of me I can't recall where I learned that.

Though even without that, there are no universes I can think of where Wanda doesn't have it rough.

Though given they rectonned America Chavez's entire backstory for it to make any sort of fucking sense I suppose anything could happen.

Once again, I know it's a typo but "rectonned" is such a perfect word for a retcon pulled straight from one's ass and I want to see it in use everywhere.

Glad you noticed it.

Also a perfect time for a secondary mutation.

No doubt. You'd almost expect a secondary mutation bonus prize for even surviving such a thing.

Desperately so.

Depressingly so.

So many senseless murders all happening around pure, innocent Caim. It's a testament to his pure soul that he can keep going, keep smiling despite it all.

Truly he is the uncrowned prince of the bright side of life.

Yeah but it doesn't match up with the desired conclusion so it HAS to be wrong, despite how much sense it makes.

Seriously you could for real teach a class just by using this debate as a "don't do this" example list.

It's a perfect example of special pleading.

I make a special plea that they fuckin' stop already

Call out and cast down logical fallacies.

Casting things out and casting them out is fun. All the cool kids do it. Join us.

Yeah, I'm only bothering to look these people up because I come across them in the general subreddits posting very very bait-y topics.

It's cute that they think they're baiting a trap for anyone but themselves.

Don't like the conclusion of a story? Erase it and all the parts of the story leading up to it!

And if they did it quietly and didn't try to insist that's reality, we wouldn't be here

 

[Ryeleigh]

I watched Welonz reactions to all the dates. The gist of her thoughts was that she felt that the games were non-optionally leaning towards CT but if the player dates Aerith and you get the end where Cloud doesn't "explicitly turn her down" (right before her death, lol, like I honestly can't imagine the devs treating Aerith that way), then Cloud comes off as a "two-timing asshole".

And you know, I have seen and read my share of harems but I honestly can't imagine that's the image the devs wanted to give of Cloud, especially with the "he's loyal" they had in an ad or something while he's on the water tower with Tifa. And again, this reading of CA as mutually and strictly romantic ignores the Zack factor. Like, he's actually in the game. He's not just something in the past. He might still be dead or whatever he is but he's still very much present, fighting to reunite with Aerith.

So, I don't know. I just wanted to write share my thoughts even if they don't make much sense, lol.

 

[Yoru]

if the player dates Aerith and you get the end where Cloud doesn't "explicitly turn her down" (right before her death, lol, like I honestly can't imagine the devs treating Aerith that way), then Cloud comes off as a "two-timing asshole".

It's simple then : Don't date Aerith

Because in reality, the real problem is that they kept the Aerith date option to please the OG players, but it no longer works in Remake/Rebirth because Tifa is introduced as a romance much earlier on. Proof that Aerith is above all a red herring in OG.

It used to work in OG because Tifa was gamedesigned as a plot twist. But now that they've chosen to put her relationship with Cloud more to the front and focus instead on an build-up... well, Aerith doesn't work anymore.

It works if you only like her character because you don't care about the rest anyway, but for those who look at the game as a whole and see how much Tifa is put forward in terms of romance... the relationship with Aerith seems forced.