SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

So, against my better judgement I went dumpster-diving on twitter the other day, and saw someone point out that in Rebirth Aerith's "everyone is waiting" is the same thing Tifa says in the original LS scene. Now, this person was using it as evidence that the line belongs to Aerith now and they are going to give her the LS scene instead, which is a reach if I ever saw one, but it did make me curious about if they're setting up a parallel or something, and I was wondering if you guys had any thoughts on it.

I can just imagine it.

Aerith: “Wow, Cloud. Tifa really mattered to you. You kept your promise to her. You should tell her when you wake up.”

The point of the reveal is for both Tifa and Cloud… Aerith just doesn’t make much sense to be here. Only Tifa would have an emotional response to Cloud saving her in Nibelheim.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Her in this case being Aerith or Tifa? Antecedents, man, you need to specify them!

That’s what I get for rewriting something and not proofreading it lol how embarrassing

Her being Aerith. Doesn’t make much sense for Aerith to say that line potentially twice, but I do find it interesting that she says it at the close of, what I’ve come to understand, her own LS sequence, in which Cloud plays a minor albeit crucial role.

That and it may have unknowingly been a double-edged sword. Resolving Aerith’s inner conflict but also giving Jenova a backdoor to finding the best form to take to manipulate Cloud.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That’s what I get for rewriting something and not proofreading it lol how embarrassing

Her being Aerith. Doesn’t make much sense for Aerith to say that line potentially twice, but I do find it interesting that she says it at the close of, what I’ve come to understand, her own LS sequence, in which Cloud plays a minor albeit crucial role.

That and it may have unknowingly been a double-edged sword. Resolving Aerith’s inner conflict but also giving Jenova a backdoor to finding the best form to take to manipulate Cloud.

That's what I figured, but I like to clarify these things.
As for giving Jenova a backdoor form, it seems Sephiroth already knows the best way to destroy Cloud is through Tifa, hence why he attacks Cloud's sense of self by bringing up the Nibelheim incident, the one area where Tifa actually has (justified) doubts about Cloud.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

That's what I figured, but I like to clarify these things.
As for giving Jenova a backdoor form, it seems Sephiroth already knows the best way to destroy Cloud is through Tifa, hence why he attacks Cloud's sense of self by bringing up the Nibelheim incident, the one area where Tifa actually has (justified) doubts about Cloud.

The fact that at the end of Rebirth Sephiroth using Jenova/Aerith to manipulate Cloud unto a Delulu state (as Tifa notices him and even Barrett suspects it from looking at Tifa and Cloud) to further damage /destroy Tifa's trust in Cloud makes sense.

 

[GamerSkull]

The only way Aerith makes sense to be in the LS sequence is if she’s the Nibelheim childhood friend. I feel like I’ve said this ad naseum.

The sequence is for the primary purpose of proving Cloud existed before the events in the game. The only person alive that knew him back then was Tifa. The LS sequence proves that Cloud is as real as the promise he made to Tifa. Aerith met Cloud AFTER the game started so she would be useless in this circumstance.

I suppose you can make it that Aerith uses Lifestream powers to help Cloud regain his memory but then…. the entirety of it would just be about Cloud and Tifa’s past. Aerith would feel like a third wheel.

 

[Ryeleigh]

The only way Aerith makes sense to be in the LS sequence is if she’s the Nibelheim childhood friend. I feel like I’ve said this ad naseum.

The sequence is for the primary purpose of proving Cloud existed before the events in the game. The only person alive that knew him back then was Tifa. The LS sequence proves that Cloud is as real as the promise he made to Tifa. Aerith met Cloud AFTER the game started so she would be useless in this circumstance.

I suppose you can make it that Aerith uses Lifestream powers to help Cloud regain his memory but then…. the entirety of it would just be about Cloud and Tifa’s past. Aerith would feel like a third wheel.

You know, the idea of canon CA is pretty funny when you consider that the proof of Cloud's existence is his love for another girl.

 

[GamerSkull]

You know, the idea of canon CA is pretty funny when you consider that the proof of Cloud's existence is his love for another girl.

Not to be mean, but canon CA isn’t really compatible with the story they are trying to tell. They had the opportunity to change things with the beginning of the Remake trilogy but they didn’t.

The only way CA makes sense is if the story is changed from a foundational level.

They’ve now created a scenario in which players will see him kiss Tifa in a determinant scene. A scene that Aerith has a version of in which he does not kiss her. He’s also repeatedly indicated that he wishes Aerith not do certain things that are considered romantic.

They’ve already shit the bed if we’re heading towards CA now as it just makes Cloud seem like an indecisive fuckboy.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Not to be mean, but canon CA isn’t really compatible with the story they are trying to tell. They had the opportunity to change things with the beginning of the Remake trilogy but they didn’t.

The only way CA makes sense is if the story is changed from a foundational level.

They’ve now created a scenario in which players will see him kiss Tifa in a determinant scene. A scene that Aerith has a version of in which he does not kiss her.

They’ve already shit the bed if we’re heading towards CA now as it just makes Cloud seem like an indecisive fuckboy.

Not to mention that ever since the OG, they've progressively doubled down on CT and ZA. Does this mean that CA never got any fan service? Of course not. But fan service does not canon make. And that does not mean that people can't enjoy the fan service. It's there to make people happy after all, lol.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

Not to be mean, but canon CA isn’t really compatible with the story they are trying to tell. They had the opportunity to change things with the beginning of the Remake trilogy but they didn’t.

The only way CA makes sense is if the story is changed from a foundational level.

They’ve now created a scenario in which players will see him kiss Tifa in a determinant scene. A scene that Aerith has a version of in which he does not kiss her.

They’ve already shit the bed if we’re heading towards CA now as it just makes Cloud seem like an indecisive fuckboy.

Yes, like replacing Tifa with Aerith from the beginning of FF7 Compilation.

 

[GamerSkull]

Not to mention that ever since the OG, they've progressively doubled down on CT and ZA. Does this mean that CA never got any fan service? Of course not. But fan service does not canon make. And that does not mean that people can't enjoy the fan service. It's there to make people happy after all, lol.

They’ve also basically recontextualized Zack as a guy with amazing rizz instead of a man slut.

 

[Ryeleigh]

They’ve also basically recontextualized Zack as a guy with amazing rizz instead of a man slut.

Was he ever a man slut, though? Or was that just something the fans made up? I mean, yeah, there were Aerith's comments but even in the OG, the girl had serious denial going on.

 

[GamerSkull]

Was he ever a man slut, though? Or was that just something the fans made up? I mean, yeah, there were Aerith's comments but even in the OG, the girl had serious denial going on.

I think there is some light implication during the truck scene. But that was back when he was barely a character. They decided to add more depth to him later.

 

[null]

At this point I’m half expecting a Sephiroth battle in the LS scene. SE, this part of the game does not need to be improved. Please don’t try to find clever ways to involve popular characters that shouldn’t be there.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yes, like replacing Tifa with Aerith from the beginning of FF7 Compilation.

Here’s a fun hypothetical.

Completely swap out Aerith and Tifa. Aerith is Cloud’s childhood friend and Avalanche member. Tifa is the Ancient who is also a Flower Girl.

Story is exactly the same. Just swap them. Do you think CA fans would say:

1. Aerith emotionally manipulated Cloud with the promise.

2. She was a bully to Cloud

3. She’s a bad friend for making Cloud a terrorist.

4. She only likes Soldier!Cloud.

Would the same “criticisms” towards Tifa be leveled at her? Food for thought.

Bonus game: Swap Cloud and Zack.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

Was he ever a man slut, though? Or was that just something the fans made up? I mean, yeah, there were Aerith's comments but even in the OG, the girl had serious denial going on.

Cleriths take that from a description of Zack from "Maiden" fanfic.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

Here’s a fun hypothetical.

Completely swap out Aerith and Tifa. Aerith is Cloud’s childhood friend and Avalanche member. Tifa is the Ancient who is also a Flower Girl.

Story is exactly the same. Just swap them. Do you think CA fans would say:

1. Aerith emotionally manipulated Cloud with the promise.

2. She was a bully to Cloud

3. She’s a bad friend for making Cloud a terrorist.

4. She only likes Soldier!Cloud.

Would the same “criticisms” towards Tifa be leveled at her? Food for thought.

Bonus game: Swap Cloud and Zack.

In that case Clotis will be the Delulu lol.

 

[Shadowstorm]

Yeah the entire notion is ridiculous. It just goes to show what state this whole "debate" is in these days. Clerith endgame truthers have to warp the story around Clerith. They make all their predictions based on their preferred outcome rather than coming to conclusions about what's actually built up. It just doesn't register with them that maybe Cloti was given the content it was in the OG on purpose rather than a coincidental distraction from the real romance. They convince themselves those scenes will now be given to Clerith to prove once and for all it was the real ship all along, nevermind that if they have to change canon in that big a way to validate their ship then they might as well admit defeat about what the endgame has been since 1997.

It's a little insulting to the devs really. To expect them to overhaul a story they put so much work into all for the sake of one ship.

Wow, I love this parallel. Kinda similar to "dilly dally silly shally"
Ofc it doesn't mean Aerith would get Tifa's role lol, but I really how it's about time for Cloud to return to the others.

Yeah I can just see the paralel gifsets, you know? Aerith has to send Cloud back alone, with his mind more messed up than ever, but later on after Tifa helps him fix his mind they can both return to their friends together. It could be a nice little full circle thing.

With many Clerith takes a lot of their observations do come from something, it's just that their conclusions are built around how it could benefit their ship. It can still be interesting to look at the thing that initially caught their attention. (unless it's stuff like reading jealousy into Cloud's default expression lol)

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah the entire notion is ridiculous. It just goes to show what state this whole "debate" is in these days. Clerith endgame truthers have to warp the story around Clerith. They make all their predictions based on their preferred outcome rather than coming to conclusions about what's actually built up. It just doesn't register with them that maybe Cloti was given the content it was in the OG on purpose rather than a coincidental distraction from the real romance. They convince themselves those scenes will now be given to Clerith to prove once and for all it was the real ship all along, nevermind that if they have to change canon in that big a way to validate their ship then they might as well admit defeat about what the endgame has been since 1997.

It's a little insulting to the devs really. To expect them to overhaul a story they put so much work into all for the sake of one ship.


Yeah I can just see the paralel gifsets, you know? Aerith has to send Cloud back alone, with his mind more messed up than ever, but later on after Tifa helps him fix his mind they can both return to their friends together. It could be a nice little full circle thing.

With many Clerith takes a lot of their observations do come from something, it's just that their conclusions are built around how it could benefit their ship. It can still be interesting to look at the thing that initially caught their attention. (unless it's stuff like reading jealousy into Cloud's default expression lol)

Cloud was totally jealous of Zack in Gongaga. You could see it on his blank expression.

Also, he totally didn’t care when Barret tells him the story of that one guy who hit on Tifa and she rejected him. He even makes a face.

Hey, wait a darn minute!!!!

 

[Reaper3Delta]

Common sense, when the FF7 Devs create so much backstory from childhood to adulthood and further into the future for the same established couple, just to some "fans" thinking the Devs are going to flush all those works down the toilet for the sake of change of the story, Nope it ain't gonna happen.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So Cleriths in twitter are trying to compare the argument that "Cloud would not make a move on his best friend's girl" by comparing it to Rinoa and Seifer.
I am not sure if this is complete media illiteracy, deliberate bullshit, or bits of both, because there's nothing similar between the two scenarios at all except that the woman used to date another man.

Aerith dates Zack for close to two years, they were getting very serious. Zack is Cloud's best friend and TOLD CLOUD ABOUT HOW IN LOVE WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND HE WAS. Zack was also encouraging Cloud to make a move on his own sweetheart, but that's largely irrelevant, except to reiterate, Cloud and Zack good friends. Aerith waited patiently for Zack for five long years, wrote letter after letter, and very clearly senses his death in CC and is very much in denial about it. She is regularly bringing up Zack- her interactions with Zack are constantly coloring her interactions with Cloud and she brings him up very quickly , within hours of meeting Cloud.

Rinoa and Seifer dated for a summer. They definitively ended things (and I think she ended it?). Squall and Seifer are not friends.They're barely rivals and they openly detest each other. Rinoa dating Seifer really only comes up the once, and way down the line, because it wasn't important to her, because Seifer wasn't important to her.




Also yeah, narratively, there's far too much setup around CT to waste it all now, especially with both Tifa's chunk of TOTP and 2000 Gil reinforcing them in addition to all the big and little shit in the games themselves.

 

[pxl_pushr]

So Cleriths in twitter are trying to compare the argument that "Cloud would not make a move on his best friend's girl" by comparing it to Rinoa and Seifer.
I am not sure if this is complete media illiteracy, deliberate bullshit, or bits of both, because there's nothing similar between the two scenarios at all except that the woman used to date another man.

Aerith dates Zack for close to two years, they were getting very serious. Zack is Cloud's best friend and TOLD CLOUD ABOUT HOW IN LOVE WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND HE WAS. Zack was also encouraging Cloud to make a move on his own sweetheart, but that's largely irrelevant, except to reiterate, Cloud and Zack good friends. Aerith waited patiently for Zack for five long years, wrote letter after letter, and very clearly senses his death in CC and is very much in denial about it. She is regularly bringing up Zack- her interactions with Zack are constantly coloring her interactions with Cloud and she brings him up very quickly , within hours of meeting Cloud.

Rinoa and Seifer dated for a summer. They definitively ended things (and I think she ended it?). Squall and Seifer are not friends.They're barely rivals and they openly detest each other. Rinoa dating Seifer really only comes up the once, and way down the line, because it wasn't important to her, because Seifer wasn't important to her.




Also yeah, narratively, there's far too much setup around CT to waste it all now, especially with both Tifa's chunk of TOTP and 2000 Gil reinforcing them in addition to all the big and little shit in the games themselves.

Yeah, that’s a strange parallel to make considering the details. Also, it’s not like Seifer was actively fighting to get back to Rinoa and died doing so about… a couple days ago? Before Squall meets Rinoa? It breaks down pretty easy to mild scrutiny.

Cloud remembering Zack is crucial because it completely changes how he treats Aerith and contributes to his own anxieties over his degradation. I think the “brocode” argument kinda misses the point imo. Cloud’s head is in a completely different space on the subject.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, that’s a strange parallel to make considering the details. Also, it’s not like Seifer was actively fighting to get back to Rinoa and died doing so about… a couple days ago? Before Squall meets Rinoa? It breaks down pretty easy to mild scrutiny.

Cloud remembering Zack is crucial because it completely changes how he treats Aerith and contributes to his own anxieties over his degradation. I think the “brocode” argument kinda misses the point imo. Cloud’s head is in a completely different space on the subject.

Oh, yeah, the reason Cloud remembering Zack loved Aerith is not a "brocode" thing but rather he immediately thinks "Oh shit, she loved him and she's looking for closure and I know what happened to him, I gotta tell her, it's the right thing to do for both of them!"

 

[GamerSkull]

Zack and Aerith being compared to Seifer and Rinoa. Now I’ve seen it all.

It’s not even framed by the narrative in the same way.

 

[eleamaya]

LS scene belongs to Kadaj who is the last person she says “everyone’s waiting” to. No takesy backsies, m-mother.

Ach yeah, Aerith also holds Kadaj's hand here despite unseen.

The only way Aerith makes sense to be in the LS sequence is if she’s the Nibelheim childhood friend. I feel like I’ve said this ad naseum.

You know what? It's the scenario that would've happened IF the character of Cetra (or the heroine) had never been split in two.

Aerith dates Zack for close to two years, they were getting very serious. Zack is Cloud's best friend and TOLD CLOUD ABOUT HOW IN LOVE WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND HE WAS. Zack was also encouraging Cloud to make a move on his own sweetheart, but that's largely irrelevant, except to reiterate, Cloud and Zack good friends. Aerith waited patiently for Zack for five long years, wrote letter after letter, and very clearly senses his death in CC and is very much in denial about it. She is regularly bringing up Zack- her interactions with Zack are constantly coloring her interactions with Cloud and she brings him up very quickly, within hours of meeting Cloud.

Rinoa and Seifer dated for a summer. They definitively ended things (and I think she ended it?). Squall and Seifer are not friends. They're barely rivals and they openly detest each other. Rinoa dating Seifer really only comes up the once, and way down the line, because it wasn't important to her, because Seifer wasn't important to her.

Also, it’s not like Seifer was actively fighting to get back to Rinoa and died doing so about… a couple days ago? Before Squall meets Rinoa? It breaks down pretty easy to mild scrutiny.

I akcnowledge there is parallel or similar scene in the dialogue between Rinoa talking to Selphie about Seifer & Aerith talking to Cloud about Zack. Rinoa also teases Squall if he's jealous of knowing her relationship with Seifer. But Seifer is right there, he's not missing, and he doesn't actively pursue romance towards her despite being a rival to Squall. It could have potential love triangle IMO since the two guys are rival, why not 'love rival' too? The three of them is also in the keyart. Rinoa was looking for Seifer the time she visits Balamb Garden, she's also sad when Seifer was missing because Edea took him. At this point, she still has feelings for him. And I dont think they're actively dating, but just going on 1-2 dates like Aerith did with Cloud. But what Zack does in CC ending and now in Rebirth was totally opposite of Seifer. So yeah, Cleriths just want Zack to be like Seifer, or an asshole depicted in Maiden.

And I bet those Cleriths also say Tifa is equal to Quistis there. Seifer --> Rinoa <--> Squall <--- Quistis

If anything, Zack/Aerith/Cloud to me closer to Chappu/Lulu/Wakka. Wakka also feels guilty for Chappu's death, they aren't just 'brother' but literally blood brother (despite Wakka is the older one). And after both Wakka & Lulu getting closure, it's the good time for moving on new releationship. Wakka doesn't break the bro-code here for getting his brother's fiancee.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ach yeah, Aerith also holds Kadaj's hand here despite unseen.


You know what? It's the scenario that would've happened IF the character of Cetra (or the heroine) had never been split in two.

Of course, Tifareth was only split because they had the idea to kill off a woman instead of the man, and I think that was back during the era of development where Jenova was a state of consciousness rather than an Alien Lifeform so we're way deep in the what if weeds there.