SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Cat on Mars]

Probably all variations on "where are you motherF&*%r!, I know you ain't dead, I asked the planet! Why aren't you answering my voicemails! Where's my baby money!"

That's from the sequel set in an alternate timeline, FFVII: Alimony.

 

[Graymouse]

Yes, looking at the picture, she's not talking to Cloud only, because the three of them are in the scene. This is why the French assumed "vous" I guess. But I remember Maiden talking about it as a clerith motif, and I just don't see it, not for this scene, because of how it happens. It amuses me though that this "you came and it's all that matters" is both a cloti and clerith motif lol. The girls are more similar than what it looks!

There are some Cloud X Aeritih that say other wise. I guess it really depends on which lens you are looking through. Although the answer and proof is right in front of you. What is funny is that this game has done an excellent job of making sure the camera is in the right area when it comes to character interactions. There was a reason why Tifa was in the frame. I noticed while playing this game that mostly when the characters were talking one on one the camera almost always focused on that particular character in this case it did not. Which was done on purpose. With that said I do believe that Areith was talking to both Cloud and Tifa. Even, Cloud didn't make a big deal about it by replying "yeah"

I think, in chapter 3 with Tifa, Cloud is so adamant about money because he's trying to project himself as an adult, and what do adults do? They're responsible about money. I immediately thought that it's how someone who's just started on life would try to react to be "good" and on the safe side. So in ch3, he's trying to get that sorted out without taking in consideration how he feels exactly, especially since he's still having his "tough exterior" to crack - which it does in ch4, as Tifa immediately notices when she comes into his room to make sure he's not going to disappear without a word again.

Yeah, there were times in CH3, I was yelling at my screen. Cloud what the hell man, you could be a bit nicer about it. Tifa, had the patience of a Saint during this part of the game. In fact I think after Tifa was finished teaching Cloud the rules of the life below, he even mentioned that he had a patient teacher. I love their character growth there. Small but still it was growth (slow burn)

Maybe, I think it's mostly because that's just the start of his delusion of being a mercenary, and therefore, logically the point he'd still be most mercenary-ish. It steadily declines in the presence of Tifa and Avalanche, and is already basically gone by the time he gets to Aerith in the remake.


People often say that Cloud becomes himself with Aerith, but I've never put much stock in that, since, well, duh. Tifa caused his persona, avalanche is a terrorist organisation, and he's literally being a mercenary for them. Of course he'd start acting less like that if you remove him from that environment, but in the remake he basically gives up isntantly.

This is a common argument from the Cloud X Aerith side. The only problem is that it is debunked by the recent translation of FF7R Ultimania.

Different topic, but it just occurred to me. The argument that Aerith is over Zack. I don’t really get it, because at the same time, it is proclaimed that Cloud isn’t allowed to be over Aerith. Isn’t that a kind of double-standard?
I mean, if Aerith can move forward (if indeed she can), then Cloud should be as much able to move forward. Right?

I hope this isn’t off-topic in any kind of way. It just started bugging me, I don’t know, why.

One Cloud X Aerith argument that I always found hilarious when it is mentioned. Is the argument against the Zack and Aerith pairing, It is when Aerith says "Look Forward, Not backwards." Those very words are detrimental to the CLoud X Aerith pairing. Without you ever realizing it you are discrediting your own argument.

I guess when you are set in your ways one does not think that the same rule should apply to both situations. We can only move on when it is about Zack and Aerith. (2 plus year relationship) so it is alright for Aerith to move on to be with Cloud But, when it is about Aerith and Cloud (1 month relationship) Cloud suddenly is not allowed to move on from Aerith to be with Tifa. The math does not balance the equation at all. It has too many imaginary numbers involved.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Wasn't Tseng going to deliver 80 something letters to Zack from Aerith? 80!? I wouldn't consider that a "not serious" relationship lol

89, over the course of 4-5 years, to be exact. That's about 2 letters a month.

 

[DutchDread]

89, over the course of 4-5 years, to be exact. That's about 2 letters a month.

All of this brings up though, why didn't Aerith have any information about Zack?

She knows he works for Shinra, she has regular contact with people from Shinra, she says she doesn't know where to send them but apparently she tried sending them somewhere and people from Shinra apparently have her letters.

Presumably at some point she would have asked about Zacks whereabouts and presumably they'd have given her some kind or comforting lie.
"he's missing" or whatever, she should know he didn't randomly run off with some girl at the very least. I think she's smart enough to realize that if they'd said "he quit" that that would be a lie.
Not only that, but shortly after Zack goes missing, Sephiroth is declared dead, might also give some hint that stuff happened.


Tseng promised he'd look after Aerith, and he seemed genuine about wanting to deliver the letters to Zack, SURELY he must have said SOMETHING.

 

[Final_Heaven]

All of this brings up though, why didn't Aerith have any information about Zack?

She knows he works for Shinra, she has regular contact with people from Shinra, she says she doesn't know where to send them but apparently she tried sending them somewhere and people from Shinra apparently have her letters.

Presumably at some point she would have asked about Zacks whereabouts and presumably they'd have given her some kind or comforting lie.
"he's missing" or whatever, she should know he didn't randomly run off with some girl at the very least. I think she's smart enough to realize that if they'd said "he quit" that that would be a lie.
Not only that, but shortly after Zack goes missing, Sephiroth is declared dead, might also give some hint that stuff happened.


Tseng promised he'd look after Aerith, and he seemed genuine about wanting to deliver the letters to Zack, SURELY he must have said SOMETHING.

Well he’s official reported to be KIA but Aerith would know that’s a lie until he actually dies

 

[eleamaya]

shortly after Zack goes missing, Sephiroth is declared dead, might also give some hint that stuff happened.

They're both declared dead, which Aerith by her Cetra power doesn't believe.
In CC, by mails to the gamers, it's said that Zack fanclub members interview the women who are closed to Zack after the news, Aerith and his mother. Since Aerith just said he needed to fix her wagon, the FC members pitied her not knowing the news of his death. They went to his mom but they can't say her son was dead. His mom said thanks that his son is loved by everyone.
Midgar Reporter even went to "N" to see the place the SOLDIERs last seen, they're surprised no people knew about the incident as they interviewed. Indicated Nibelheim had been build

 

[LNK]

Aerith is persistent, I give her that.

Persistent... Obsessive... Depends on POV lol

 

[DutchDread]

They're both declared dead, which Aerith by her Cetra power doesn't believe.
In CC, by mails to the gamers, it's said that Zack fanclub members interview the women who are closed to Zack after the news, Aerith and his mother. Since Aerith just said he needed to fix her wagon, the FC members pitied her not knowing the news of his death. They went to his mom but they can't say her son was dead. His mom said thanks that his son is loved by everyone.
Then Sephiroth FC members went to "N" to see the last place their idol lost his life, and they're surprised no people knew about the incident as they interviewed. Indicated Nibelheim had been build

Well he’s official reported to be KIA but Aerith would know that’s a lie until he actually dies

Yeah, I kinda thought that's the message she might have heard, but like you said, she'd know that's not true, so wouldn't she demand to know the truth, or at the very least tell them that he's not dead and that they should go looking for him since he might be in danger?
I'd generally like to know more about this entire timespan.

Especially if Sephiroth and Zack are pronounced dead together, if she knows Zack is not dead, she should be suspicious as hell.

 

[Final_Heaven]

Yeah, I kinda thought that's the message she might have heard, but like you said, she'd know that's not true, so wouldn't she demand to know the truth, or at the very least tell them that he's not dead and that they should go looking for him since he might be in danger?
I'd generally like to know more about this entire timespan.

Especially if Sephiroth and Zack are pronounced dead together, if she knows Zack is not dead, she should be suspicious as hell.

Yeah it was on Shinra news. Here:

From: Shinra News

Contents:

This is an official notification of the change in status for the following personnel.

Sephiroth - SOLDIER 1st Class: Killed in action

Zack Fair - SOLDIER 1st Class: Killed in action

Two infantrymen were also killed in action.

----------------------

So Sephiroth, Zack and Cloud were announced dead in the same news piece funnily enough.

 

[eleamaya]

Especially if Sephiroth and Zack are pronounced dead together, if she knows Zack is not dead, she should be suspicious as hell.

Yeah, together. Aerith should connect the dot of Seph and Zack's relationship in FF7R.... maybe. Especially, she and Tifa would hear Cloud's explanation about the incident in the next part. She should care about any news that can give her hint where Zack is since reporter kept investigating it.... if she really wondered. But maybe, she just trusts Tseng. And perhaps, when Tseng is dying in Temple of Ancient, he'd apologize to her that he never delivered it.

She finally asked Cloud if he knew Zack when they're in playground, she probably wanted to ask Sephiroth, too, as they meet. And the vision of Zack's Last Stand she saw on the highway maybe Sephiroth's answer.

 

[MasterMoogle]

This may surprise people, but governments(which Shinra is, despite pretensions of being a private company) aren't exactly forthcoming with information. Anybody who knew about the Nibelheim incident was probably gagged.

 

[Final_Heaven]

Someone on Tumblr pointed out something interesting:

I think what’s going on here is that both Jesse and Aerith are playing to his desire to be a hero. They’re both associated with his SOLDIER! Persona. And his interactions with them is him trying his best to live up to that SOLDIER Persona.

This Persona was born out of his desire to be a hero to Tifa but UNLIKE both Jesse and Aerith Tifa doesn’t play up Cloud’s hero aspect. She also unlike Jesse and Aerith keeps him at arm’s length. His true self is still trying to impress Tifa but who he is actually impressing are Jessie and Aerith. And SOLDIER Cloud livesss for that. Pretty girl is impressed because he’s their hero. It’s what he’s always wanted.

But he’s unaware as SOLDIER Cloud that that’s what he’s always wanted from Tifa.

True Cloud knows which is why True Cloud screams for Tifa basically in every scene they’re together. His True self comes out when he’s with Tifa. And Cloud does still feel that need to impress her through SOLDIER Cloud too (driven by True Cloud’s feelings). He thinks that’s what she wants. Look I’m the hero you always wanted.

Giving her the flower, complimenting her through the drink, trying to be cool.

But notice how he never actually does. Because it’s not SOLDIER Cloud she’s into.

Jessie and Aerith however embody everything SOLDIER Cloud wants. To be recognized as a hero. So their scenes show similar reactions from the same self which is SOLDIER Cloud.



An interesting comparison I will point out is the reaction to Cloud’s eyes. All three girls comment on them.

Jessie is impressed by Cloud’s eyes. “Just keep those baby blues of yours on me.”

Aerith was also impressed with Cloud’s beautiful eyes and it was a Zack reference because she had said the same to Zack. He doesn’t know what she’s reffering to so he says oh it’s the Mako.

Tifa however DOES NOT have that same reaction she mentioned Cloud’s eyes used to be less kill happy basically and he also says it’s the Mako because he mistook it as a comment on the color

These scenes are opposites. Tifa misses the True Cloud and rejects his SOLDIER Persona. Jesse and Aerith compliment his SOLDIER persona.

Tifa is the odd one out in every reference to SOLDIER Cloud.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Someone on Tumblr pointed out something interesting:

I think what’s going on here is that both Jesse and Aerith are playing to his desire to be a hero. They’re both associated with his SOLDIER! Persona. And his interactions with them is him trying his best to live up to that SOLDIER Persona.

This Persona was born out of his desire to be a hero to Tifa but UNLIKE both Jesse and Aerith Tifa doesn’t play up Cloud’s hero aspect. She also unlike Jesse and Aerith keeps him at arm’s length. His true self is still trying to impress Tifa but who he is actually impressing are Jessie and Aerith. And SOLDIER Cloud livesss for that. Pretty girl is impressed because he’s their hero. It’s what he’s always wanted.

But he’s unaware as SOLDIER Cloud that that’s what he’s always wanted from Tifa.

True Cloud knows which is why True Cloud screams for Tifa basically in every scene they’re together. His True self comes out when he’s with Tifa. And Cloud does still feel that need to impress her through SOLDIER Cloud too (driven by True Cloud’s feelings). He thinks that’s what she wants. Look I’m the hero you always wanted.

Giving her the flower, complimenting her through the drink, trying to be cool.

But notice how he never actually does. Because it’s not SOLDIER Cloud she’s into.

Jessie and Aerith however embody everything SOLDIER Cloud wants. To be recognized as a hero. So their scenes show similar reactions from the same self which is SOLDIER Cloud.



An interesting comparison I will point out is the reaction to Cloud’s eyes. All three girls comment on them.

Jessie is impressed by Cloud’s eyes. “Just keep those baby blues of yours on me.”

Aerith was also impressed with Cloud’s beautiful eyes and it was a Zack reference because she had said the same to Zack. He doesn’t know what she’s reffering to so he says oh it’s the Mako.

Tifa however DOES NOT have that same reaction she mentioned Cloud’s eyes used to be less kill happy basically and he also says it’s the Mako because he mistook it as a comment on the color

These scenes are opposites. Tifa misses the True Cloud and rejects his SOLDIER Persona. Jesse and Aerith compliment his SOLDIER persona.

Tifa is the odd one out in every reference to SOLDIER Cloud.

I don't exactly agree about Aerith. She seems to not be interested in Cloud's persona. She constantly deflates his ego to get him to lighten up and allow her to fight alongside him.

It's not this SOLDIER persona that Aerith is seeking in Cloud. It's Zack. I think Aerith was unintentionally trying to recreate certain memories she possesses with Zack with Cloud. For instance, the high-fiving debacle(and this is speculation) was probably something her and Zack did a lot back in the day.

Same with the eye-gazing scene. Many are interpreting that as her being mesmerized by his eyes, but I did see one theory on tumblr claiming that she was trying to recreate a memory with Cloud, and became bummed out by his reaction because of how much it diverged from Zack's.

I'm not sure how much I agree with this theory, since it sounded biased towards a specific ship, but it's worth considering:

https://spectroscopes.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F619030484060717056

 

[Graymouse]

I don't exactly agree about Aerith. She seems to not be interested in Cloud's persona. She constantly deflates his ego to get him to lighten up and allow her to fight alongside him.

It's not this SOLDIER persona that Aerith is seeking in Cloud. It's Zack. I think Aerith was unintentionally trying to recreate certain memories she possesses with Zack with Cloud. For instance, the high-fiving debacle(and this is speculation) was probably something her and Zack did a lot back in the day.

Same with the eye-gazing scene. Many are interpreting that as her being mesmerized by his eyes, but I did see one theory on tumblr claiming that she was trying to recreate a memory with Cloud, and became bummed out by his reaction because of how much it diverged from Zack's.

I'm not sure how much I agree with this theory, since it sound biased towards a specific ship, but it's worth considering:

https://spectroscopes.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F619030484060717056

I haven't thought of it that way before. That is interesting.

 

[eleamaya]

I thought I had said similar things here... that Aerith stops viewing Cloud as Zack's shadow anymore in that scene. But I didn't specify it in the eyes reaction, just more about she didn't get any closure she wanted from Cloud. So, for healthy sake, she told herself to stop and let Cloud return to Sector 7.

 

[minami758]

That Tumblr post is interesting, though I don't really agree with the conclusion it's reaching. I personally never agreed that Aerith was only attracted to the "Zack-like" parts of Cloud anyway, though I could see how those interpretations came up. The OG wasn't very clear in what was Cloud and what was attributed to Zack/Jenova/other scrambled memories.

No matter, Aerith knows Cloud and Zack are two different people, even if they share similar attributes. In that eyes moment I don't really buy that Aerith is thinking, "Oh this guy is different from Zack." I think she's thinking about Zack. Period.

Cloud says all SOLDIERs have Mako-colored eyes and Aerith gets bummed out because she's reminded of Zack's eyes once again. She says, "yeah, I know," with such sadness. Then she gets down from the slide and says she has to look forward, not back. But that sentence is again said with such sadness. Aerith is desperately trying to move forward, but she can't help thinking about Zack.

I know the Tumblr post is arguing that Aerith's then continued feelings for Cloud means she likes Cloud for Cloud and not for Zack, but my disagreement there is just that I don't really see this Aerith (Remake!Aerith who knows things about the future) interested in Cloud like that, yet. That'll probably change in the next installment, though.

But then Zack shows up at the end, which could then upend a bunch of other things. I simply can't see SE bringing Zack into the story (in whatever capacity) and then not having his arc tie-in with Aerith's in any way. If anything, this just means Aerith is even less likely to move on from Zack at this point, if she senses he's alive somewhere.

 

[Final_Heaven]

https://otp-oasis-heavenxearth.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F619750154043621377
Thoughts on this?

 

[Graymouse]

It was an interesting read, I felt it was called pretty much down the middle without a bias on either side. I actually went and looked at this bloggers sources, and yeah they are from the Devs. It was surprisingly unbiased take on the whole LTD.

 

[Ryushikaze]

If I may toot my/ TLS's horn a little, many of those points were made here long ago and several times, including "You change the affection each character has for Cloud, not that Cloud has for them" but that was for the OG.

 

[DutchDread]

If I may toot my/ TLS's horn a little, many of those points were made here long ago and several times, including "You change the affection each character has for Cloud, not that Cloud has for them" but that was for the OG.

Don't know if it came from here though, when you start talking about the LTD casually the date is the first thing that's always brought up, one of the first realizations I had myself when really getting into this topic in depth a few months ago was the fact that it's actually Aerith and Tifa that take Cloud on a date, not vice versa, including the fact that the system itself reflects that.

It's still a bit weird to me that the date is seen as one of the most prevalent arguments when I personally consider it one of the weakest, since it falls apart rather quickly as soon as you think about it.

 

[odekopeko]

The affection point system is the same in the Remake as it was in the OG. It mentioned that in the FF7R Ultimania, but man, I had another shipper convince me otherwise, even though I had that page right in front of me. Depending on how many side quests completed, you raise affection the girls have for Cloud, or if it's too low with either, you default to Barret.

The only difference in FF7R is that neither turning down the flower nor the drink will make you lose any affection points, and certain options are removed, like whom Cloud gives the flower to.

It's old news for you guys, but it's news for me. Thanks for sharing that input.

 

[Master Bates]

Reading all that felt like I was getting lectured by Moana.

Isn't it just amazing how we have all these quotes confirming C/T to not only have romantic feelings for each other, live together, and even raise a family together, and yet there are still people who insist their relationship is entirely platonic.

Even Yuna and Tidus never get to have the same amount of confirmatory quotes attributable to them, and yet no one ever questions the canonicity (is this a word?) of their romantic relationship. The standard required of C/T to be even considered as a legitimate pairing is totally absurd.

I just feel so sorry for Cloud and Tifa at this point because in-universe, they had to overcome a lot of things in order to get together. Out-of-universe, they also need to overcome a lot of shit in order to be remotely considered as viable. No matter what they do, no matter what the devs say about them, some people will never ever consider a romantic union between them possible. It almost feels like they're the real star-crossed lovers.

 

[MasterMoogle]

including "You change the affection each character has for Cloud, not that Cloud has for them" but that was for the OG.

But that doesn't make sense if certain scenes are made canon after the fact, and Cloud ends up with Tifa anyway. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying the way the devs went about it was dumb because it merely gives the player the illusion of choice.

Then again, who decided Aerith's date and the high affection highwind scene were the "canon" scenes? How was this determined?

 

[Ryushikaze]

But that doesn't make sense if certain scenes are made canon after the fact, and Cloud ends up with Tifa anyway. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying the way the devs went about it was dumb because it merely gives the player the illusion of choice.

I'd argue that the illusion of choice is entirely the point.

Then again, who decided Aerith's date and the high affection highwind scene were the "canon" scenes? How was this determined?

Ultimanias canonized the High Highwind by refering to Cloud and Tifa confirming their mutual love matched, which they do in the "High Highwind" scene, as we call it.

Aerith's date isn't specifically called out, but tends to be the image used when talking about the dates, so folks assume it's canon. I personally want somehow for ALL of the dates to be canon and just wear Cloud down over the course of a night.

 

[MasterMoogle]

I'd argue that the illusion of choice is entirely the point.

I see what you're saying, but by giving the player the choice of molding Aerith/Tifa's feelings for Cloud, the devs undermined the stories of those characters. This, I think, is why the developers have done interviews after the fact to "correct the record." It's also why I hope the devs are reintroducing Zack into the story, because Aerith needs to exist independent of Cloud and the player's choices, especially since she's doomed anyway despite her importance to the external narrative. Conversely, Tifa's story revolves around Cloud, so it makes no sense to deprive her of that simply because the player prefers Aerith.

This is something that bugs me to this day, because I plan on going into game development. It undermines the characters to add a mechanic such as the "affection meter" into the game. It's immersion-breaking because it reminds the player that the choices of this character aren't the character's actual choices. They're the player's choices.

However, if it serves a different function than turning the story into a player-controlled branching narrative, then maybe I should judge it on those grounds. I'm still thinking about this. Honestly, I feel like books could be written analyzing and criticizing FF7's story mechanics. We arguably already have in this thread.