SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[odekopeko]

“So Tifa is your…?”

“She’s an important woman to me.”

“Okay, but is she your girlfriend? Fiancé? Wife?”

“She’s very important.”

“No I got that, but are you guys dating? Engaged? Married?”

“We’re important people.”

Hopefully you can see why this doesn’t exactly give me the answer I’m looking for. Which I’m perfectly fine with as far as Cloud & Tifa are concerned, it’s just I’m not gonna call my wife “my important person” when asked about her, she’s my wife.

Sounds like the kind of conversations my dad has to go through all the time, except he just dgaf about what his family has to say to him. He's already been through divorce. So, are you saying that you're not really concerned with it, but you know that there are others who are, and you don't think the LTD will end unless Cloud or the devs just grow a pair and actually come out and state their relationship status in plain letters?

Edited to add: I just don't know if they're going to write Cloud and Tifa so differently in the Remake for them to say things like that, when in the original, they're bumbling fools who have a hard time telling each other how they feel, and Tifa basically goes, “Words aren’t the only thing that tell people what you’re thinking…”

 

[Eerie]

Let's be clear there, there will never be any "I love you" between Cloud and Tifa. That line of hers is absolutely iconic so it's staying. It's totally out of character for them to say such things. At best we'll get a kiss (I do think it's a likely thing considering in part 1 we had a hug, so we need something to end that arc in more than a hug).

Also, no, I don't think we had more explanation on Cloud wavering between the two girls and being unable to understand their feelings. But once we get the real Cloud, we never get anything regarding his feelings for Aerith - in fact even between her death and the Lifestream scene, is there anything really clerith? Because I don't remember so. But Cloud does tell Tifa that only her opinion counts, before making basically a huge statement about how much his life and his reasons for acting as he did were all rooted in his love for her. I'd like to know where there is such a statement for his feelings about Aerith, because I am pretty sure it doesn't exist.

Meanwhile:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352193431674773505

 

[KindOfBlue]

So, are you saying that you're not really concerned with it, but you know that there are others who are, and you don't think the LTD will end unless Cloud or the devs just grow a pair and actually come out and state their relationship status in plain letters?

Pretty much, I mean I doubt we’d actually see Cloud and Tifa go that far in the story but a mention from the devs in an interview would be perfectly fine, just say “yeah, they got married after AC” or something like that and just be done with it all lol

It's totally out of character for them to say such things.

At some point though, it’d be nice if they developed passed that especially after everything that happened in AC

But once we get the real Cloud, we never get anything regarding his feelings for Aerith - in fact even between her death and the Lifestream scene, is there anything really clerith? Because I don't remember so.

It mostly comes from AC, the line about reuniting in the Promised Land, and the stuff in AUs like Kingdom Hearts and WoFF…of course, WE know better but to a normal person who might lean more in the direction of Aerith and especially to a shipper, stuff like that seems to reaffirm the idea of Cloud constantly longing for her.

Since it’s established that Cloud was in fact wavering, the burden of proof then falls on those who claim he only wavers during his SOLIDER persona, so a statement clarifying the nature of his romantic feelings towards Aerith would go a long way in establishing how the LTD changes post-FF7. Because for some, the default assumption is “well, we know he liked Aerith during FF7 so why wouldn’t he still like her in AC?” We know he feels guilty, but we’d still need prove that he exclusively likes Tifa if we’re to truly put the final nail in the LTD’s coffin.

 

[Eerie]

At some point though, it’d be nice if they developed passed that especially after everything that happened in AC

I don't think saying "I love you" would resolve any problem. The reason why Tifa worried is because Cloud closed up and didn't let her come close. So she was worried about what they were, if they were a true family. This is why she speaks up and faces her fears as Denzel and Marlene are kidnapped, and this pushes Cloud to act and face his own fears. ACC gives closure to Cloud, which reassures Tifa in the role she has in his life. This is especially seen in The Kids Are Alright where you can see that she does not doubt or fear anymore, and that Cloud is also calmly saying that they are a family right after the end of ACC. They don't *need* words, they need to *show* their feelings to each other. It was Cloud's own fears that drove them apart, but in the end, the events of ACC allowed him to close that gap.

It mostly comes from AC, the line about reuniting in the Promised Land, and the stuff in AUs like Kingdom Hearts and WoFF…of course, WE know better but to a normal person who might lean more in the direction of Aerith and especially to a shipper, stuff like that seems to reaffirm the idea of Cloud constantly longing for her.

And I tell you again, people who want to distort the game and the world and the characters will always do. It's a YT comment about Cloud's face during the hug, in which a clerith said that he zoned out, that made Peko join us. These things are all over the internet and it's not going anywhere. They were hugging and it was romantic and true Cloud showed up but to them, he "zoned out". I'll let that sink in. Meanwhile, if they want to think that KH proves clerith, well... lol.

Since it’s established that Cloud was in fact wavering, the burden of proof then falls on those who claim he only wavers during his SOLIDER persona, so a statement clarifying the nature of his romantic feelings towards Aerith would go a long way in establishing how the LTD changes post-FF7. Because for some, the default assumption is “well, we know he liked Aerith during FF7 so why wouldn’t he still like her in AC?” We know he feels guilty, but we’d still need prove that he exclusively likes Tifa if we’re to truly put the final nail in the LTD’s coffin.

Nope, the burden of proof is not onto me, not when the LT answer is given in the Lifestream scene; that Cloud has *always loved* Tifa. After this, it's not my problem, show me where Cloud says that he has tender feelings for Aerith, where the devs state that he feels anything else than guilt towards her. I don't care anymore, this is my stance on the LTD. The burden of proof is onto cleriths post-Lifestream scene, because there is only Tifa from then on. Hell, the tweet I linked shows that it's because Tifa is by his side that Cloud can fight Sephiroth too.

 

[frosty]

I guess I need to make myself clearer. I never said marriages or something like it doesn’t exist. I just never saw any “weddings” being written into the story in Nibelheim. Emilio just says he’s going to “come and get her” to live with him in Midgar. They only mention “being with someone”, or spending their life with someone. I know it sounds dumb as heck to you, but I just assumed people announced it to their friends and family and moved in together, and people just viewed them as a couple. So when I asked you guys, it was a genuine question. I really honestly wasn’t sure.

Ah no worries. I was just wondering. It would be a hoot if there was no concept of marriage or weddings in Nibelhiem. Like, they were so backward that they traded sheep for daughters (jokes. But it WOULD be funny)

The ring is a symbol for Cloud's extended family (since even Barret has one)

Yeah I get that too. But the other "rings" weren't given prominence at all in the movie. Hence my comment that someone took the pains to storyboard and program the angles of of the ring depicted on Tifa's hand.

And 10/10 Barret would be the type to suggest matching bro tattoos for him, Cloud and Tifa. Not jewellery

It's a bit hard to suspend one's incredulity when all the ladies and most of the men are thirsting for Cloud and not for Zack. I mean, Cloud is a sweet boy, but come on. He's a monosyllabic shortstuff with wierd chocobo hair. Jessie, Biggs is right there. Don't you have eyes?

Biggs is A+ in my books. And Zack wins over Cloud cos he's like, 6 feet 1.

Let's be clear there, there will never be any "I love you" between Cloud and Tifa. That line of hers is absolutely iconic so it's staying. It's totally out of character for them to say such things. At best we'll get a kiss (I do think it's a likely thing considering in part 1 we had a hug, so we need something to end that arc in more than a hug).

There are story telling techniques that do not require two characters outright having to tell each other they love one another, though.

The most common tactic is to have a third party point it out. Case in point, the Nurse(?) in Mideel saying "She must really love him" (Or something to this sort) The other common tactic is via internal monologue so the audience knows it. They've also already clearly used this in ToTP as Tifa tells herself (and the reader) what she feels - a fondness that evolved into love. But Cloud doesn't get to hear it.

Devs / Writers have an arsenal of these tools to have characters reveal their feelings. To which I would also consider the LTD "end" if they employed the same graceful technique of "ending" the Uncharted love triangle...because the third prong of the triangle removed herself
i.e. Chloe asks Nathan about Elena - "Do you love her?". He stutters and cannot bring himself to deny it, and she says "Tell her. But you're gonna miss this ass" and she walks off.

 

[LNK]

the question here is whether or not those feelings for Aerith continue past FF7, which is a popular claim for Cloud and Aerith shippers that they can pretty easily hold on to until an official statement counters that

How can they hold that statement though? There is nothing post OG that leads us to believe Cloud still has romantic feelings for Aerith. At least none that I can remember

 

[Thenir]

Yeah I get that too. But the other "rings" weren't given prominence at all in the movie. Hence my comment that someone took the pains to storyboard and program the angles of of the ring depicted on Tifa's hand.

And 10/10 Barret would be the type to suggest matching bro tattoos for him, Cloud and Tifa. Not jewellery

The Fenrir is mythologically associated to a negative significance, so the rings could symbolize also their guilt (yes, Denzel is a kid but according to his short story he suffers from survivor guilt). Indeed Marlene hasn't one.
But since Cloud has fenrirs..everywhere I think it definitely symbolizes Cloud as well. It makes sense that Barret has one and I don't think it's indicative of a weaker relation between Cloud and Tifa. The movie and the novel didn't spend time to explain it but both Cloud and Barret lost their best friends in a tragic way and feel responsible for their deaths. Their friendship must be special, no matter where he lives and what's his role in the family.

In this regard, it's worth mentioning that at the beginning of the movie Tifa hasn't the ring, she only starts wearing it when she decides not to give up on Cloud and she goes to look for him at the church. The close-ups on her hands are definitely not casual.

 

[Humming]

Fenrir wasn't negative in some meanings. It could also mean destiny or the inevitability of it. I didn't think of it as a symbol of their grief, maybe they just looked up some legendary wolf name to use and has no deeper meaning, but it's curious that Fenrir was chained by the gods because they feared its future.

I don't realize see their guilt relating to Fenrir myrh, so I assumed that it was just a cool nordic reference.

 

[Makoeyes987]

FFVII is rife with Nordic mythology, that's sorta it's defining setting feature.

Midgar, Nibelheim, the Midgardsormr, and of course Fenrir. That's on top of the other FF tropes that carry Nordic names and stuff.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Square Enix, like other fantasy creators before and since, have plundered all the world's mythologies and legends for world-building materials.
eg
Kujata and Infrit, Arabian
Shiva, originally a male Hindu deity. I suppose SE turned it into a female ice summon due to "shiver" being a close homonym
Alexander, Hades, Greek
Knights of the Round, Arthurian Legend
I'm sure I need not go on.

 

[KindOfBlue]

They don't *need* words, they need to *show* their feelings to each other.

I get that, but after a good few years of showing, it’d be nice to get some growth in that area of verbal communication (and we do see a bit of that post-FF7) because it’d be silly for Cloud and Tifa to forever exist in a perpetual state of never saying anything to each other

Nope, the burden of proof is not onto me, not when the LT answer is given in the Lifestream scene; that Cloud has *always loved* Tifa. After this, it's not my problem, show me where Cloud says that he has tender feelings for Aerith, where the devs state that he feels anything else than guilt towards her. I don't care anymore, this is my stance on the LTD. The burden of proof is onto cleriths post-Lifestream scene, because there is only Tifa from then on. Hell, the tweet I linked shows that it's because Tifa is by his side that Cloud can fight Sephiroth too.

The issue there though is that we know Cloud still carries all of the bonds that he did during his SOLDIER identity post-Lifestream, so the question then becomes if he had romantic feelings for Aerith when he thought he was a SOLDIER, why would those feelings instantly go away once his true personality come back? It’s not like the feelings he had before towards others get overwritten, why would this be any different? He unlocks his feelings for Tifa, but do those feelings completely push Aerith out of the picture romantically? It’s that small bit of hope that the shippers still hold on to because as long as a part of him still likes Aerith that’s enough for people to say “see? He’s not really committed to Tifa…”

The remake has a chance to change this dynamic and it seems like it very well might do just that (“even if you think you have, it’s not real”). That is the exact sort of clarity that’s been pretty lacking up until now, and it’s what I hope to see more of depending on where they go with that line.

How can they hold that statement though? There is nothing post OG that leads us to believe Cloud still has romantic feelings for Aerith. At least none that I can remember

It’s because at some point it was stated that Cloud wavered between Aerith and Tifa, but it wasn’t specified if this is just a FF7 thing or if this continues post-FF7, hence why I’d very much appreciate a statement clarifying this and blowing the “Cloud is longing to be together with Aerith” interpretation of AC out of the water

 

[odekopeko]

The remake has a chance to change this dynamic and it seems like it very well might do just that (“even if you think you have, it’s not real”). That is the exact sort of clarity that’s been pretty lacking up until now, and it’s what I hope to see more of depending on where they go with that line.

If you've been on twitter, the latest argument is that the line "even if you think you have, it’s not real" meant the opposite—She said that to make him stop liking her because she didn't want him to get hurt, but he will fall for her anyway. Which I won't argue against. They could very well go in this route, anything's possible. (Honestly, both girls are great and I just really want this to end lol.)

But I actually agree with you. Remake seems to going in the right direction. More clarity.

I think the problem with the original game is that the otome game mechanics could essentially mess with the outcome of the LT. You could say, well, it disappears after Cloud regains agency over his own mind—he wasn't himself when he made those choices—but the results of those decisions the player made before Aerith died could result in that ridiculous low affection scene. Giving the player the option to have that different outcome is why I feel some players still cling to this perception that the love triangle is "up to interpretation". I don't agree with it because the Low Affection scene goes against the story, the rest of the compilation, and even what was said in the Ultimanias, but if that variable exists in the game, then I can see the validity of that argument, and that's why I feel there's hasn't been any closure to the LTD.

In the Remake, none of the choices you make affects any of the major events. You don't feel like you're in the mood for a drink at the bar? Well, you still have to drink it anyway. You get only Aerith's Resolution, or Tifa's Resolution? Still doesn't change how Cloud acts with any of the girls. From my POV, playing the Remake first and then playing the original, it feels like the Remake kind of took away so many options regarding the LT.

 

[Eerie]

The issue there though is that we know Cloud still carries all of the bonds that he did during his SOLDIER identity post-Lifestream, so the question then becomes if he had romantic feelings for Aerith when he thought he was a SOLDIER, why would those feelings instantly go away once his true personality come back? It’s not like the feelings he had before towards others get overwritten, why would this be any different? He unlocks his feelings for Tifa, but do those feelings completely push Aerith out of the picture romantically? It’s that small bit of hope that the shippers still hold on to because as long as a part of him still likes Aerith that’s enough for people to say “see? He’s not really committed to Tifa…”

It's never stated anywhere, instead we get him and Tifa who confirm their feelings under the Highwind without words (kudos to the disbelievers who still don't get they had sex, it's the year 2021 yet I've seen that, yes...). At some point, instead of *imagining*, show me the PROOF of his feelings post-Lifestream. I don't care. Not my burden. I go by with what the game and the Compilation show me. See if I have to show off the whole quotes that show proof for cloti but still get denied that they are canon, then I too can be an arsehole with this. I'm fed up with this, why is it me who shows plenty of proof that has to get the burden of proof. No, it's them who want to claim something, it's up to them to show it. Hint: they can't because it doesn't exist.

The remake has a chance to change this dynamic and it seems like it very well might do just that (“even if you think you have, it’s not real”). That is the exact sort of clarity that’s been pretty lacking up until now, and it’s what I hope to see more of depending on where they go with that line.

I want more clarity, but you'd be surprised at how many people think it's a good thing for their ship... (see what Peko just wrote). Personally, I think that if I were clerith I would have been heartbroken at this scene, full stop. There's no way for me to look at it and think it's good. It's basically the devs saying it's not even real, that nothing is in that ship, and Aerith aknowledging it and being hurt by this.

 

[Humming]

FFVII is rife with Nordic mythology, that's sorta it's defining setting feature.

Midgar, Nibelheim, the Midgardsormr, and of course Fenrir. That's on top of the other FF tropes that carry Nordic names and stuff.

Yeah but one thing is borrowing its names or designs and other is sharing themes from nordic myths, that's what I tried to say hahaha

Aside from sharing names, I don't think that's a common theme in Cloud's story and what Fenrir represented. Might be wrong tho, I just know the basic stuff.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think the problem with the original game is that the otome game mechanics could essentially mess with the outcome of the LT. You could say, well, it disappears after Cloud regains agency over his own mind—he wasn't himself when he made those choices—but the results of those decisions the player made before Aerith died could result in that ridiculous low affection scene. Giving the player the option to have that different outcome is why I feel some players still cling to this perception that the love triangle is "up to interpretation". I don't agree with it because the Low Affection scene goes against the story, the rest of the compilation, and even what was said in the Ultimanias, but if that variable exists in the game, then I can see the validity of that argument, and that's why I feel there's hasn't been any closure to the LTD.

I will say, one of the things I’m most looking forward to is whether or not they’ll still have the low-affection scene as an option because it really doesn’t add anything to the story lol

In the Remake, none of the choices you make affects any of the major events. You don't feel like you're in the mood for a drink at the bar? Well, you still have to drink it anyway. You get only Aerith's Resolution, or Tifa's Resolution? Still doesn't change how Cloud acts with any of the girls. From my POV, playing the Remake first and then playing the original, it feels like the Remake kind of took away so many options regarding the LT.

A pet peeve of mine is how ridiculously low the amount of people who got the Barret scene was, so I really wish none of them were optional because I know the devs were banking on players replaying the game but I doubt many casuals would do that.

The discovery scenes being optional also irks me, they should’ve left the scenes in there but have Cloud automatically pick mature if you haven’t done all of Tifa’s quests or something so that the conversation can still be experienced. The Aerith one doesn’t even end with a dress choice, so having the reveal vary could still work.

All in all, making relationship development optional annoys me lol.

It's never stated anywhere, instead we get him and Tifa who confirm their feelings under the Highwind without words (kudos to the disbelievers who still don't get they had sex, it's the year 2021 yet I've seen that, yes...). At some point, instead of *imagining*, show me the PROOF of his feelings post-Lifestream. I don't care. Not my burden. I go by with what the game and the Compilation show me. See if I have to show off the whole quotes that show proof for cloti but still get denied that they are canon, then I too can be an arsehole with this. I'm fed up with this, why is it me who shows plenty of proof that has to get the burden of proof. No, it's them who want to claim something, it's up to them to show it. Hint: they can't because it doesn't exist.

Isn’t the Cloti argument usually “Cloud can like Aerith but it doesn’t change his feelings about Tifa?” Doesn’t that open the door for Cleriths to use the same logic unless there’s a quote proving Cloud is exclusively only into Tifa after the Lifestream?

I want more clarity, but you'd be surprised at how many people think it's a good thing for their ship... (see what Peko just wrote). Personally, I think that if I were clerith I would have been heartbroken at this scene, full stop. There's no way for me to look at it and think it's good. It's basically the devs saying it's not even real, that nothing is in that ship, and Aerith aknowledging it and being hurt by this.

Perhaps, but like @odekopeko mentions, there is a way to frame that scene so that it’s meant to show Cloud actually does like Aerith and she wants to let him down easy.

Of course, I don’t particularly care for that interpretation but before I can claim that it’s false, I need to be absolutely sure that’s not what the devs meant. If I had to guess, they’ll probably just let that question go unanswered and let people decide for themselves because I’m not convinced they’ll go so far as to sink an entire ship by revealing he didn’t actually like her (though it would certainly be a bold move).

So the alternative way to end the LTD goes back to what I was saying before about making Cloud’s exclusivity to Tifa clear by calling them boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife. Because the argument then becomes:

“If Cloud still had feelings for Aerith, he wouldn’t commit to being Tifa’s boyfriend/husband.”

“But boyfriends/husbands have feelings for other people all the time, that’s why cheating happens!”

“Okay, so prove that he isn’t exclusive to Tifa.”

“…”

It just makes it so much easier to skip all the LTD nonsense and discuss what actually matters, like the story lol.

 

[Thenir]

Yeah but one thing is borrowing its names or designs and other is sharing themes from nordic myths, that's what I tried to say hahaha

Aside from sharing names, I don't think that's a common theme in Cloud's story and what Fenrir represented. Might be wrong tho, I just know the basic stuff.

I checked on Reunion Files: "The wolf is a symbolic figure that represents the deepest part of Cloud's psyche. It appears in response to some burden that Cloud is carrying deep in his heart". I haven't found anything about Fenrir in particoular but I guess the gray wolf actually is Fenrir.

 

[Phantasia]

@KindOfBlue there are some points in your reply I wish to address, but by no means I am refuting your statements, I agree for the most part.

A pet peeve of mine is how ridiculously low the amount of people who got the Barret scene was, so I really wish none of them were optional because I know the devs were banking on players replaying the game but I doubt many casuals would do that.

Though I love Barret's resolution, I'll have to play the devil's advocate here and say that I understand the decision to basically skip his. While Aerith's and Tifa's add something to the story (they both hint to something yet to be "revealed"), Barret's is basically talking about members of avalanche we don't know yet plus another cloti scene. I thought we were gonna met them in Intermission?... Guess not.

All in all, making relationship development optional annoys me lol.

Totally. For example, for me, Aerith's resolution fits the best at that part of the story, but I wish Tifa's happened BEFORE that somehow, both scenes been not skippable. You get closure of Cloud wanting to comfort Tifa, and Aerith's decision to keep moving forward and a sense of her powers (at this point Cloud was already set to saving her, and honestly, with or without her mother's "permission". Tifa and Barret would have follow through too).

Perhaps, but like @odekopeko mentions, there is a way to frame that scene so that it’s meant to show Cloud actually does like Aerith and she wants to let him down easy.

People who say this are the ones that don't take that frase literally ("ShE mEaNs SoMeThInG eLsE"), but god forbid Cloud say Tifa is not his girlfriend while acting weird, there "He MeAnS iT aNd dOes NoT cArE lIKe ThAt AbOuT HeR". They nitpick what fits there preferences and don't see things objectively.

I’m not convinced they’ll go so far as to sink an entire ship by revealing he didn’t actually like her (though it would certainly be a bold move).

I agree, but what they're gonna do is tell another love story, Aerith's love story, which is Zack's too, and maybe, and I said maybe, leave Cloud out of it (...for the most part). I think that should be enough.

So the alternative way to end the LTD goes back to what I was saying before about making Cloud’s exclusivity to Tifa clear by calling them boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife.

I agree with this, and what to add that there is something that bothers about japanese media (shounen stuff specifically, which this kind of is), and is when they wait until the LAST chapter of the anime/manga/light novel to reveal the male character's feelings. I honestly hate this, and feel that it drags the romance aspect of the story, if any, way to much. At this point, even if canon, is not satisfactory (this is how I felt with AoT for example...) Yeah, many hints, lots of foreshadowing and whatever, but it gets tiring after a while).

 

[KindOfBlue]

Though I love Barret's resolution, I'll have to play the devil's advocate here and say that I understand the decision to basically skip his. While Aerith's and Tifa's add something to the story (they both hint to something yet to be "revealed"), Barret's is basically talking about members of avalanche we don't know yet plus another cloti scene. I thought we were gonna met them in Intermission?... Guess not.

I just like Cloud and Barret not wanting to rip each other’s heads off okay lol

I get what they were going for with the resolution scenes as a callback to the Gold Saucer in the OG but personally I wouldn’t mind if that particular game mechanic stayed in the past…

Totally. For example, for me, Aerith's resolution fits the best at that part of the story, but I wish Tifa's happened BEFORE that somehow, both scenes been not skippable. You get closure of Cloud wanting to comfort Tifa, and Aerith's decision to keep moving forward and a sense of her powers (at this point Cloud was already set to saving her, and honestly, with or without her mother's "permission". Tifa and Barret would have follow through too).

THANK YOU, it sure would save us the trouble of people saying stuff like “Aerith’s scene is more canon because it’s the one in the credits” lmao

I agree, but what they're gonna do is tell another love story, Aerith's love story, which is Zack's too, and maybe, and I said maybe, leave Cloud out of it (...for the most part). I think that should be enough.

Now that I didn’t even think of, highlighting Aerith and Zack instead of Cloud could be another way to solidify the pairings…I’m pretty undecided on how much Zack I think we’ll see, but I can already tell that can ruffle some feathers (the LTD annoys me but even I can enjoy a good online shitstorm lol).

Your point about romance and shonen is one of my biggest complaints about Naruto as much as I love the series because they had so many great moments that they could establish Naruto developing reciprocating feelings for Hinata but decided to save all of that for the movie taking place after the series. I cringed so hard even though it revolves around the pairing I liked because of how forced it felt, and they even ripped off the Lifestream scene now that I think about it...Thankfully, the reveal about Cloud and Tifa gets some pretty good setup in the remake even if you pay more attention to Aerith.

 

[LNK]

It’s because at some point it was stated that Cloud wavered between Aerith and Tifa, but it wasn’t specified if this is just a FF7 thing or if this continues post-FF7, hence why I’d very much appreciate a statement clarifying this and blowing the “Cloud is longing to be together with Aerith” interpretation of AC out of the water

Yes, he wavered prior to her death, but we don't SEE that post OG. He clearly was/is with Tifa. I doubt if Cloud still has feelings for Aerith, he would've continued the relationship with Tifa.

 

[null]

Some of the interpretations of that trailer perplex me:

“You see? They used the L-word! It’s official!”

“What was they rest of that sentence?”

“Yeah, but they still said ‘love’ though.”

“And what did they officially say about that love?”

Y’all can hopefully understand why I’d rather the devs just skip all the BS and stop trying to be so coy with some of this stuff

I mean, if I were asked to summarize Cloud and Aerith's relationship in a single line, I'd probably come up with something like the commercial did. It's not rocket science. Fans willfully misinterpreting the statement and/or the story itself doesn't mean more clarity is needed. Likewise when Nomura said Tifa's roles include mother, koibito, and ally, I thought he was just restating the obvious, yet some people instead decided to introduce significant whitespace into written Japanese rather than just accept it at face value.

The problem isn't that the relationships in FF7 are so vague that we need developer commentary to understand them. The problem is shippers making bad faith arguments in a race to the bottom. If SE made a statement right now clarifying everything beyond an absolute shadow of a doubt, those people aren't going to say "well, I was wrong and I take it all back". They'll just get on social media and scream in perpetuity about how terrible the writing is while upvoting each other. (See also: Attack on Titan.)

 

[kathy202]

I remember back when AC was released, a friend of mine who didn't play the OG watched it and was convinced Cloud loves Aerith more no matter what I told her about the game. She never denied Cloti though. Either way, I'm quite certain they were being deliberately vague in AC. Not that it matters much because one of them is dead and he's practically raising kids with the other one.

I do think it's likely for Cloud to have some lingering feelings for Aerith. It might not be like the kind of bond he has with Tifa after all they've been through, but I think he would be a moron if he said, "No I never thought about Aerith. It was always Tifa." Or even, "I no longer feel a thing about Aerith."

 

[frosty]

I agree with this, and what to add that there is something that bothers about japanese media (shounen stuff specifically, which this kind of is), and is when they wait until the LAST chapter of the anime/manga/light novel to reveal the male character's feelings. I honestly hate this, and feel that it drags the romance aspect of the story, if any, way to much. At this point, even if canon, is not satisfactory

The problem with manga and the weekly release format is the bloat of 300+++ chapters. Authors who get popular are asked to extend their initial contracts with the publisher, hence all the weird filler episodes, gaidens, side stories, plot pivots over several years that authors themselves change their minds. These often derail what was initially good pacing, that they have to drag out the "will-they-or-won't-they" till the end.

Standalone games have less of this issue, because the arcs are all set in stone in the beginning and it's wildly expensive to pivot from a set production timeline. But they do generally follow a curve. (FF 8-10), the male lead's feelings are established somewhere mid-way. It then segues into the concurrent unfolding of the main lead's arc as well as the "love problem" arc, in which the couple has to overcome some issue that keeps them from being fully together. Half of what keeps the plot flowing at a regular pace is the anticipation the couple solves their "love problem". It's the confession / resolution of the couple (or, sad dissolution) at the end thats a '"reward" for finishing the game.

It's no different from 7. The couple problem started at the Northern Crater onward, where Tifa doubts Cloud / Cloud loses his mind. Cloud's feelings were made known in the Lifestream, but the couple problem was resolved concurrent with the main character arc. Reward is the kind-of confession at the end.

What the devs didn't do from Lifestream till end in the OG is draw out will-they-or-won't-they confess even though you know both their feelings...basically the stuff that romance writers are great at dragging out deliciously and excruciatingly.

Remake could actually now do this for Cloud and Tifa, assuming there is a Part3 where Aerith is already dead.

Now that I didn’t even think of, highlighting Aerith and Zack instead of Cloud could be another way to solidify the pairings…I’m pretty undecided on how much Zack I think we’ll see, but I can already tell that can ruffle some feathers (the LTD annoys me but even I can enjoy a good online shitstorm lol).

If there is a CC flashback at Gongaga (seems to be a given) then at Aerith's date she keeps the original convo of saying Cloud reminds her of her ex...it pivots the OG story away from "Aerith wants to get to know real Cloud better" to "Aerith is still hung up on Zack ".

All it takes is a tiny tweak to turn the C/A story to a Z/A one....and you don't even have to have Zack in for multiverse /parallel universe shenanigans. I really do think this is what they're committing to.

Likewise when Nomura said Tifa's roles include mother, koibito, and ally, I thought he was just restating the obvious, yet some people instead decided to introduce significant whitespace into written Japanese rather than just accept it at face value.

I remember this! When @KindOfBlue said that what would kill the LTD for her (him?) was a confirmation of girlfriend / wife....I was like, wait, didn't an interview call Tifa koibito?

But then I remembered the internet's arguments were:
"It was koi <SPACE> bito. There was a <SPACE>"
"They never said she was CLOUD'S koi <SPACE> bito. It's used to describe her character that she can be a good girlfriend. But not to Cloud"
"Koi <SPACE> bito means sweetheart in English. Tifa was like a sweetheart. I call nice people "sweetheart" all the time!"

Good times, early 2000ies.

 

[Eerie]

Right, I had forgotten about the Reunion Files which pretty much establish cloti as canon:

​

(thumbnails cause those are big pictures). In English koibito was translated here as sweetheart. But it's really koibito lol and they insisted it must be someone else than Cloud despite her living with Cloud. Like what.

​

Nowadays though they focus on this: "oh look she's like a mother to Cloud!" well yeah he's a big kid, it happens. Me too I sometimes have a motherly feeling towards my husband cause he's still a big kid LOL. A lot of women feel that way.

​

This drove it pretty well though "she's very much like any other woman who's been left behind by a man" and yeah he did cause he was stupid, depressed and dying. Still in the end, Nojima knew that everyone would be where they belong - and that means Cloud with his family, because this is his Promise Land, where he can be happy.

Did that kill the LTD? Obviously not, yet what else can SE do, really?

 

[kathy202]

Tifa is Cloud's girl friend. Friend who is a girl. Nothing romantic at all.

 

[odekopeko]

The problem isn't that the relationships in FF7 are so vague that we need developer commentary to understand them. The problem is shippers making bad faith arguments in a race to the bottom. If SE made a statement right now clarifying everything beyond an absolute shadow of a doubt, those people aren't going to say "well, I was wrong and I take it all back". They'll just get on social media and scream in perpetuity about how terrible the writing is while upvoting each other. (See also: Attack on Titan.)

But then I remembered the internet's arguments were:
"It was koi <SPACE> bito. There was a <SPACE>"
"They never said she was CLOUD'S koi <SPACE> bito. It's used to describe her character that she can be a good girlfriend. But not to Cloud"
"Koi <SPACE> bito means sweetheart in English. Tifa was like a sweetheart. I call nice people "sweetheart" all the time!"

Good times, early 2000ies.

You know, I completely forgot about this interview. It felt like so long ago. @KindOfBlue there is what you're asking for!

But back in late April or May in 2019, when I was new to this fandom, I ran into a tweet from a CxA fan that asked if anyone could help them understand what the word meant when describing Tifa. We actually had a really nice conversation about it. I think they may have just been misguided due to some essays they read on the internet that perpetuated these false claims. Eventually someone came and asked her to block me (which she didn't), but we said good bye, and that was the end of it. This was before Remake came out and Aerith ends up being the one who uses the word when asking about Tifa.

People aren't denying what it means now. But if the Remake never had Aerith saying that line, I can guarantee you there will still be people claiming that to be true.