SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rose Alive]

Not sure if we can discuss leaks freely in this thread, so I'll hide it under spoilers for now so everyone can read at their own risk.

Spoiler: Possible spoilers/leaks regarding rebirth

I do get your point, but I'm not sure if that would be a good idea, tbh. At this point in the game, Cloud is still quite a mess, which is what leads to the whole Lifestream sequence in the first place. I'm not sure if I would like their first kiss in the game to happen while Cloud is still not fully himself again. Plus, a confirmation that early in the game only opens room for more unnecessary things to be thrown between them to generate some conflict until the actual ending. If the idea is to end the LTD for good this time, they can do that by just being more clear and straightforward with the intentions (which I believe is what they were doing in Remake, for example) rather than confirming a pairing in the second instalment.

Spoiler: Possible Rebirth spoilers

I see what you mean. I suppose I was thinking that a Gold Saucer kiss would be the real Cloud just so desperately trying to reach out to Tifa, like a non-verbal way of him screaming "I'm still in here! You are still my heart!" That's where my head went as soon as I saw the pic.

 

[Rose Alive]

Ryu, as always I respect your vulgar display of dominance in LTD matters but this



is not how you spell RAINE

In my humble opinion, the earliest confirmation was Cloud handing Tifa the flower with the player choice removed. But they spent the whole game doing non-optional touching / reaching / holding / invading each other's personal space / yelling each other's names / saving each other just in time. I feel like stuff like that is more intimate than physical expression. But yeah "they haven't kissed" is the last thing to go, that's the final hiding place, it's the final fig leaf.

Spoiler: Rebirth demo spoilers

Tifa's mailbox had the reunion flower on it. I thought that was a nice touch.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ryu, as always I respect your vulgar display of dominance in LTD matters but this



is not how you spell RAINE

I was just considering the present day of the game. Raine is fantastic but as of then she was kerput.

 

[Lex]

Tbh I'd rather not have another LTD thread to police, so I'm going to to say discuss as normal but tag any Rebirth leaks/ spoilers until the game has been out for like a month.

 

[Rose Alive]

I remember them doing the same for Remake. But my question is: is this solely because the ship war is so bad? Are they refering to screen time, or "romantic" scenes with Cloud? Because one girl can have more of a romantic undertone with some of her scenes without it invalidating the other girl. It doesn't make the other girl less important.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Well Aerith is

Spoiler: Rebirth spoilers

already confirmed to have another date in Kalm. The media, trailers, etc already hype up c/a and theme songs, (the vas too, though they do this for multiple ships). Hamaguchi talks about all the moments in the game leading up to the c/a GS date. c/t also get some hype and build up in most recent pre release media too. So I think they are trying to play up the romance in general.

 

[Rose Alive]

Spoiler: Rebirth

I'm just worried Rebirth is going to be playing too many angles. Like we know there will be some Cloud and Tifa. But if they lean too hard toward Cloud and Aerith along with Zack and Aerith, it seems odd to me.

Concerning the Gold Saucer, lots of people want a kiss with Cloud with their chosen date. At first I wanted that too, but the more I think about it, I don't want Cloud to kiss Tifa if they're going the equal route. To me, all the dates are canon. We know how long a night can last in Remake. Cloud can totally go on all those dates!

But Cloud almost kissing and/or kissing both girls leaves me with an icky feeling.
Does that make sense?

 

[Stiggie]

The whole "give them both equal attention" thing always feels like bullshit to me.

Aerith is a god damn cetra, the last of her race, the savior of the planet, the one who has to summon meteor, she also has her destined death storyline as well as everything concerning Zack.

Tifa just has her personal relationship with Cloud.

So what are they pretending to equalize here? If Tifa and Aerith get equal attention then as a romance Tifa and Cloud should blow Cloud and Aerith out of the water. If Aerith however gets to be time traveling cetra jesus AND have an equal romance plot as Tifa then they might as well just kill Tifa now since they'd have already murdered her character into irrelevance. The only reason Tifa and Aerith are equal in the OG is because Aerith isn't the love interest.

The whole idea that it should be equal is nonsense anyway, they don't need forced arbitrarily equal attention. They need the attention that is required to best tell the story. I don't need Tifa to get as much attention as Aerith, I just need her to get the attention that is specific to her.

 

[roku]

if you said that on twitter you’d be getting flamed.



I agree with you though.

 

[Rose Alive]

If Tifa and Aerith get equal attention then as a romance Tifa and Cloud should blow Cloud out of the water.

Spoiler: Rebirth

I agree. I know Aerith is going to flirt with Cloud; I watched a little bit of a playthrough of Rebirth, and Aerith grabs Cloud's arm and won't let go while Tifa watches. Cloud is looking at her holding him, seemingly uncomfortable.

But if Tifa is the one in his heart, from a writing perspective, show this to your audience. The lifestream scene will be all the more satisfying because of it.

Trying to make things equally romantic makes no sense if the narrative is Cloud/Tifa and Zack/Aerith.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Tifa is more than a love story, she is more than Cloud.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I’m just as much annoyed at shippers that take every bit of screen time, every bit of promo material, every line of dialogue, every quote from an interview or a guide book as some kind of “confirmation” for or against a ship.

Confirmation of what, exactly? Assuming the remake goes the route of the OG, there is nothing that can be done to change what happens in the story. Which makes this whole ordeal such a waste of time and I hate how much SE plays into it with the ship teasing.

 

[Theozilla]

Besides the issue of Aerith dying being an essential element in the LTD's longevity, there are many people who are just far too entrenched in viewing romantic love solely through the lens of a zero-sum game. The view that having having romantic feelings for more than one person (even at the same time) inherently diminishes the validity and sincerity of said feelings (for either of the targets of affection) is the cause of so much fandom strife. Cloud having romantic feelings for both Aerith and Tifa over the course of the game(s) but ultimately settling down/formally establishing a mutual romantic relationship with Tifa at the end, doesn't negate/ruin the feelings he also had for Aerith

 

[Stiggie]

Tifa is more than a love story, she is more than Cloud.

Yeah, and if this were real life that might matter. But in games importance is measured through impact on story as it relates to the main character and the world. And in that area Tifas unique impact comes from the romantic bond she shares with Cloud.

I might as well say that the lady who runs the orphanage has more importance than just running being "the lady who runs the orphanage that Cloud and Aerith visit", she has a dream, she wants to dance. And sure, that's all true, but when it comes to her importance to FFVII that's all irrelevant, she's the orphanage lady.

Tifas story overlaps with Clouds when it comes to Nibelheim. Her personal story is Clouds personal story, the thing that makes it indispensable is the unique bond they share and what they mean. That gives context and meaning to Clouds actions as well as Tifas, it's what puts her on the level of Aerith in terms of story importance, rather than say a red XIII. Without romance Tifa would still be a great person, but as a character she'd be reduced to just an expositional tool.

I agree that some characters should really have their importance disconnected from what they mean romantically, but that applies to Aerith, not Tifa. And even more so to Cloud, whose bonds with every single woman in the story should not be "they wanna screw each other".

 

[Rose Alive]

The view that having having romantic feelings for more than one person (even at the same time) inherently diminishes the validity and sincerity of said feelings (for either of the targets of affection) is the cause of so much fandom strife.

I agree that's what causes a lot of the strife. But for me, at least once I got older, whenever I played the game, I never saw Cloud develop romantic feelings for Aerith. I believe he loved her, but wasn't in love with her. Aerith clearly had feelings for him, but did she fall in love with him? I'm not sure.
Remake has not shown me that Cloud has feelings for Aerith. It has shown me that Cloud thinks she's pretty.
Perhaps Rebirth will change my mind.

 

[null]

Spoiler: Rebirth: Kalm

If anyone hasn’t already seen the Kalm date, it’s in the video posted in the Rebirth Ch. 2 Spoilers thread (along with the rest of Ch. 2).

 

[Stiggie]

I agree with this. But for me, at least once I got older, whenever I played the game, I never saw Cloud develop romantic feelings for Aerith. I believe he loved her, but wasn't in love with her. Aerith clearly had feelings for him, but did she fall in love with him? I'm not sure.
Remake has not shown me that Cloud has feelings for Aerith. It has shown me that Cloud thinks she's pretty.
Perhaps Rebirth will change my mind.

The view that having having romantic feelings for more than one person (even at the same time) inherently diminishes the validity and sincerity of said feelings (for either of the targets of affection) is the cause of so much fandom strife

The problem I think is that arguably any equivocation is rather insulting to Tifa. Cloud fell in love with Tifa when he was what? 6? Maybe 7 if we're being generous?

If we make a line where each meter represents one week and walk along that line at an average walking speed it would take 10 minutes to walk from the start of where Cloud falls in love with Tifa, to them living together during Advent Children.
After 5:30 he'd meet Aerith.....At 5:31 Aerith dies.

The problem isn't Cloud having a Crush on Aerith sometime during the one or two weeks they know each other. The problem is that 10 minutes vs 1 second thing. If Clouds feelings towards both girls are in any way similar, then that really undermines the connection between Tifa and Cloud.

Just like two boxers fighting where one has had years of training, and the other has had a single explanation about boxing before the game, if they end up being reasonably equal as fighters then they're not actually equally treated, it's clear that one fighter is simply a much better fighter, and the other fighter was just lucky that the other fighter never got the chance to actually work their magic.

If that's how Tifa is treated, I'd rather her character had never existed in the first place.

 

[Rose Alive]

The problem I think is that arguably any equivocation is rather insulting to Tifa. Cloud fell in love with Tifa when he was what? 6? Maybe 7 if we're being generous?

If we make a line where each meter represents one week and walk along that line at an average walking speed it would take 10 minutes to walk from the start of where Cloud falls in love with Tifa, to them living together during Advent Children.
After 5:30 he'd meet Aerith.....At 5:31 Aerith dies.

The problem isn't Cloud having a Crush on Aerith sometime during the one or two weeks they know each other. The problem is that 10 minutes vs 1 second thing. If Clouds feelings towards both girls are in any way similar, then that really undermines the connection between Tifa and Cloud.

Just like two boxers fighting where one has had years of training, and the other has had a single explanation about boxing before the game, if they end up being reasonably equal as fighters then they're not actually equally treated, it's clear that one fighter is simply a much better fighter, and the other fighter was just lucky that the other fighter never got the chance to actually work their magic.

If that's how Tifa is treated, I'd rather her character had never existed in the first place.

Honestly, depending on how they handle the romance and even the dates in Rebirth, it may make me just absolutely not care about Cloud and Tifa in the romantic sense. Which sucks because I am looking forward to the lifestream scene.
But if it's constant romantic scenes with both girls, kissing them both at the GS, etc.... then meh. Tifa deserves better than that, and I'll headcanon her with Johnny.

 

[roku]

There’s a non zero chance the romance isn’t that different from the OG. ZAs in it kinda leans one way but it still isn’t definitive.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Tifa's story importance is much more personal than Aerith's big picture thing, but even setting romance aside, it's just as if not more important to Cloud's narrative, because she is the anchor and key to finding the real Cloud. She acts as his conscious, his guiding light, and his anchor of self. To paraphrase Cloud in the OG, Tifa's view of him is what matters, it's what helps him feel that he's actually himself. It's part of why Sephiroth goes so hard on proving Cloud was "never at" Nibelheim at the time of the incident, even though Sephiroth knows full well he was. He needs to attack Cloud though the one vector that actually matters, how Tifa views him. Tifa makes Cloud believe in himself in multiple senses of the word.

Aerith takes actions that can save the world, but she can't be successful without Cloud there to stop Sephiroth, and Cloud can't do that without Tifa there to remind him of who he is.

Plus she's the romantic interest, but it just sounds so trite when you put it like that.

 

[Rose Alive]

To paraphrase Cloud in the OG, Tifa's view of him is what matters

I really, really hope they have Cloud say this again. It's such an important line.

 

[frosty]

I dunno why people get so worked up about a line that says both girls get equal importance.

Equal is not the same? 6+5+1 is equal to 3+2+7 but the combination of numbers is totally different. The composition of emotional gravity, character motivations, Clouds responses are all going to be different just because they have exactly 22.43 hours of airtime each

Let's face it, the people who are worried about this line a) don't want Cloud and Aerith to kiss (things CANNOT be equal) b) are bitter that there is a high possibility Cloud and Tifa kiss (equal means u MUST give everyone a kiss)

Side note: I'm probably going to get flamed on twitter if i say this, which is why its on tls

Side note 2: i counted the equation above on my fingers for accuracy

 

[birbcode]

I'm just so tired of the LTD at this point I'm finding it hard to care about either pairing. What doesn't sit well with me about "Cloud developing romantic feelings for Aerith and Tifa" is the fact that the story of ff7 happens within the span of 40 days. If Cloud loved Aerith--which is totally possible, I'm not denying this possibility--he was able to move on awfully quick after Aerith's death...

The problem with the highwind scene is regardless of how many affection points you have accumulated up until that point, Cloud stays with Tifa. There's no option to, for example, spend time at Aerith's church. You'd expect him to mourn about Aerith more but nope, that doesn't really happen until AC. And in AC Cloud isn't hit by depression until Denzel gets infected with geostigma and he falls into despair again.

I'm sorry if this may sound harsh but Cloud falling in love with both girls just cheapens...his relationship with Aerith and Tifa.

 

[Stiggie]

I'm just so tired of the LTD at this point I'm finding it hard to care about either pairing. What doesn't sit well with me about "Cloud developing romantic feelings for Aerith and Tifa" is the fact that the story of ff7 happens within the span of 40 days. If Cloud loved Aerith--which is totally possible, I'm not denying this possibility--he was able to move on awfully quick after Aerith's death...

The problem with the highwind scene is regardless of how many affection points you have accumulated up until that point, Cloud stays with Tifa. There's no option to, for example, spend time at Aerith's church. You'd expect him to mourn about Aerith more but nope, that doesn't really happen until AC. And in AC Cloud isn't hit by depression until Denzel gets infected with geostigma and he falls into despair again.

I'm sorry if this may sound harsh but Cloud falling in love with both girls just cheapens...his relationship with Aerith and Tifa.

Conversely, both girls falling in love also cheapens the story. The culmination of FFVII is the reveal that Cloud isn't a legendary 1st class soldier, but essentially just some guy. Cloud isn't the classical hero, that was Zack, Cloud was just a weak flawed human who happened to step up when he needed to because of his feelings for Tifa.

I never liked Sephiroths obsession with Cloud since that cheapened this story arc a bit by making the world revolve around Cloud a bit too much when the brilliance of the OG FFVII is that Cloud was actually relatively unimportant. While he was obsessed with Sephiroth, Sephiroth (jenova) didn't even recognize him when they first met on the boat. I thought this was brilliant, the game sets up this idea in your head of this legendary rivalry, only for you to discover that really this was completely one-sided. Id have preferred it had they leaned into that more and make Zack Sephiroths rival instead of Cloud, rather than Cloud being Sephiroths nemesis. Sephiroth says "I am your everything", but these days it really feels like the reverse.

Both girls (And jesse) falling in love with Cloud suffers from the same problem and would just make this worse, it makes Cloud the traditional boring center of the universe type MC who all girls adore, even above the man they'd been pining over for 5 years. Sure, have Jesse have a crush on Soldier persona Cloud, that makes sense. Sure, have Aerith fall in love with the version of Cloud that reminds her of Zack, that's fine. But don't make it so that Aerith just genuinely loves the real Cloud she's never met to the point that she'd just much rather have his gloomy ass after a week than Zack.

That is not fine, that is pathetic wish fulfillment writing and a stereotypical sexual power fantasy.

 

[Rose Alive]

I'm just so tired of the LTD at this point I'm finding it hard to care about either pairing.

I too have joined the jaded camp, although the fandom has more to do with that rather than the actual characters at this point. The misconceptions of many fans being presented as facts is what gets me.

The most common example is the claim that Cloud's love for both girls is equal. The girls are equally important---Cloud's love for them is  not.

From my observations, it's usually because of this argument:
It's only because Aerith died that Cloud chose Tifa. Had Aerith lived, she would have had just as much a chance as Tifa. After the lifestream scene and Cloud reverts back to himself, why would he choose Aerith over the girl he has adored for most of his life? The one who snapped him out of his mako-induced state in Midgar by just seeing her face? The one who helped piece him back together when he had no idea who he was?

Saying his love is equal for them both shows a misunderstanding of the characters, their arcs, and the story itself. This "everything-is-equal because square can't alienate fans" argument is ridiculous.