GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Wouldn’t that last line cause even more shipping drama though?
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
Rose Alive
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Always hungry
This is why Cloud and Tifa are far from being my favorite ff couple. The vagueness and the shipteasing doesn't add anything to the relationships he has with Tifa and Aerith. It only takes away from them.
Rebirth looks like it's going to be a step in the right direction. But for some, the damage has already been done, and it wasn't because of the fandom.
Yea i saw those spoilers but it'd be nice for them to talk one last time after everything has settled. a proper straightforward conversation too rather than two people talking past each other.
Legend45
Pro Adventurer
Yeah Rebirth seems to be following what Nomura said
Attachments
shady
Pro Adventurer
The problem is, just as the post above alludes to..
This game builds on Cloud and Tifa in a major way, like there are major parts of Rebirth where you can see it's all about Cloud and Tifa, in a romantic sense, all the tropes are there from a filmmaking and literary standpoint, which is what leads up to what we know happens (if you've been spoiled.) So I can see why they've done it especially if they do go on to replicate the Lifestream and Highwind scenes in Part 3, the relationship progression will look a lot more natural in this regard. But then they have to throw in this Cloud and Aerith stuff that -- whilst not necessarily explicitly romantic -- will keep the debate rumbling on regardless and it's tiring. We know, even as Cloud's voice actor said it's possible for characters to have multiple close relationships with partners and not every be about sexualization or romance, this is true. But if you want this to be the case then they need to stop throwing scenes that can be interpreted as romantic to one girl whilst throwing romantic scenes at the other girl too, and i'm not even talking about the optoinal stuff.
Really for the sake of the story and the characters they needed to pick a lane and stay in it, fully committed which I think they've done in Rebirth but they just couldn't help themselves by sprinkling in some for the other side. Now I lean a certain way when it comes to the shipping debate because I think it best serves the story, but it's getting to the point that I don't think most people even care anymore because they're sick of SE taking the cowards way out and not just addressing it properly, but always talking in vague ways and having scenes that can be interpreted in different ways. Just rip the band-aid off at this point, this is your chance. They need to do it in P3.
Maybe, but I think for me I just want a proper idea about where each character stands. I don't like how cloud and aerith's relationship should have pretty big implications for cloud/tifa and zack/aerith but it's never acknowledged. like if cloud sees aerith romantically, how does that affect his love for tifa? how does tifa feel about it? personally, i think aerith and cloud will always have something that tifa and cloud can never have. They experience loneliness and loss in a way that's different from the rest of the party. It's true that Tifa lost everything as well but her experience is not quite the same as what cloud and aerith have in common. Even though I think cloud/tifa are endgame and i prefer them as a couple, i really would like to see how cloud's connection to aerith plays into their relationship instead of them just being like "aerith's our dead friend who we really cared about!".
anyways
i actually do think that cloud/aerith could've been a pretty epic romance. I see a vision for it - twin flames, mirrors of each other, etc. but that's just not the relationship that the devs gave us, so now i need them to not be so annoyingly baity and give cloud/tifa a proper love story instead of ruining two good relationships, three if you count zack/aerith.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
They definitely need to pick a lane. We’ll see if Part 3 ends this for good.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
You hit the nail on the head here. Catering to both sides, even to a minimal extent, isn't necessarily a problem and occurs in almost every LT in fiction. The issue arises when it's applied within the context of FFVII and its fandom because of its long history with this LTD. It becomes tiresome and doesn't benefit any of the ships. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm quite satisfied with what they seem to have done with Rebirth on this subject. However, it's these little moments that somewhat cheapen their effort to make things right this time, precisely because of how weary the entire fandom seems to be with all of this.
Empyrea
Pro Adventurer
I'll just add that I also agree that they need to pick a lane. Just that one line in the trailer made them come off as wishy-washy to me for a moment there.
Like, sure one could say I ship Cloud and Tifa, but that's because of the story that came with them. Really, I sometimes I find myself wishing Aerith and Tifa stayed the same character (if it's true that they were initially one character). Of course it's anyone's guess how that would've panned out, but the idea that if there was just one character connected to Cloud instead of 2, then they could focus on the relationship itself instead of doing all this hinting and pseudo-dating sim stuff.
Like, sure one could say I ship Cloud and Tifa, but that's because of the story that came with them. Really, I sometimes I find myself wishing Aerith and Tifa stayed the same character (if it's true that they were initially one character). Of course it's anyone's guess how that would've panned out, but the idea that if there was just one character connected to Cloud instead of 2, then they could focus on the relationship itself instead of doing all this hinting and pseudo-dating sim stuff.
that's actually something i don't get either. I feel like none of the other entries have a love triangle like this. it doesn't even seem like they're keeping the LTD alive to sell games cause otherwise they would've tried to recreate the LTD in a later entry. sometimes i wonder if the whole point is that the relationships are ambiguous and will stay that way forever.
aeriths
Lv. 25 Adventurer
Is it weird the last line in the trailer didn’t make them come off as wishy-washy to me (though I can see how some people could think that).
It was very bittersweet to me, it’s a beautiful shot paralleling AC which, while I know it will be used for ship purposes, I don’t think was the intention. Especially when you compare it to Tifa’s which featured all heavy story beats with Cloud including an almost kiss scene.
Tifa is Cloud’s heroine while Aerith’s is the world’s. This is her last game directly with Cloud and the crew and her last goodbye. I’d be more shocked if they didn’t give them something emotional together. In fact, I AM shocked at how much Cloti content is in this game ngl.
No matter what shippers say, they’re a very loud minority. Just like last game, most people are going to play Tifa’s route and figure out the narrative. Also can’t wait to hear more people talk about that kiss scene. Arguably FF’s most popular hero finally has his first kiss and it’s with undeniable fan favorite Tifa, the reactions are going to be insane.
It was very bittersweet to me, it’s a beautiful shot paralleling AC which, while I know it will be used for ship purposes, I don’t think was the intention. Especially when you compare it to Tifa’s which featured all heavy story beats with Cloud including an almost kiss scene.
Tifa is Cloud’s heroine while Aerith’s is the world’s. This is her last game directly with Cloud and the crew and her last goodbye. I’d be more shocked if they didn’t give them something emotional together. In fact, I AM shocked at how much Cloti content is in this game ngl.
No matter what shippers say, they’re a very loud minority. Just like last game, most people are going to play Tifa’s route and figure out the narrative. Also can’t wait to hear more people talk about that kiss scene. Arguably FF’s most popular hero finally has his first kiss and it’s with undeniable fan favorite Tifa, the reactions are going to be insane.
Square Enix can put Aerith's best scenes in the trailers and it wont kill the hype for both girla. This is not the case with Tifa's stuff. Tifa's best scene is an LTD killer. It ends the question of "Does Cloud love Tifa or Aerith?". The question is now "Does Cloud love Tifa and also Aerith?". And the answer ultimately doesn't matter. If you know the OG and the content part 3 has to cover, then the writing is on the wall.
The funny thing is, the LTD is less ambiguous without Aerith's death. With her death, Cloud's guilt now gets conflated with any attraction he may have felt for her while she was alive. Rebirth pretty much shows us who Cloud will pick if everyone lived with the Gondola dates.
The funny thing is, the LTD is less ambiguous without Aerith's death. With her death, Cloud's guilt now gets conflated with any attraction he may have felt for her while she was alive. Rebirth pretty much shows us who Cloud will pick if everyone lived with the Gondola dates.
Ruri
Pro Adventurer
It is truly do or die in part 3, Mr -We're not leaving much open to interpretation this time round- Nojima. Can't hand the cards to Cloud/Tifa in the game but all the windows have Cloud/Aerith posters. I am genuinely gonna settle myself down with the clarity that the game 3/4/5 years from now is the wrap and see it through a long term lense. Cloud/Tifa have all the gaming moments in part 3, including the devs affection and love for certain scenes.
if they're faithful to the OG in part 3 with that shot of cloud and aerith reaching out to each other, the LTD will probably continue until the end of time.
Hix
Pro Adventurer
I hear, but it seems a bit unfair to Cloud/Tifa really. They have incredibly well written characters and a romance that is among the most pure and developed - not without its bumps, but resolute nonetheless - in the genre.
I guess what I'm saying is, for Cloud there's no love triangle. He was in love with Tifa as a child, as a teenager and now as a man. His very story occured because of that love and was ultimately resolved by it too.
It's only a small group fans who see the LTD in everything and yeah, it's a shame, but I don't know why we give their delusions such credence that it can spoil such a good story.
I confess I haven't been around to become so battle weary as some - and am, in any case, not really a "Cloti" as such - but it doesn't even seem to be so intense anymore, really. Like Cleriths are probably doubly tired of the whole thing too, more so than Clotis, because for their ship to even work they need to continually delegitimize Cloud/Tifa who otherwise win by default.
Is she still wearing Zack's ribbon while wearing the brooch the shopkeeper gave her? Serious question.
Last edited:
r_monk
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- RM
I remember when people were complaining about lack of Tifa content for earlier trailers, a few on Twitter guessed that square was hiding her because she would be playing a pivotal role in the actual game.
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
The fact that we're posting in this particular thread means that all of us are going to have an extremely skewed view of the fandom/fan reception, but Remake sold like 7 million copies....how many of those millions of players actually give a shit about any of this? (I mean shipping in particular, waifu wars are a different story). Not to give SE too much credit here, but just because there's also a loud, vocal minority of flat-earthers online doesn't mean that science is in its flop era.
Shouldn't the fact that there aren't any other love triangles in mainline Final Fantasies prove that there isn't a real love triangle in this game?
FF7 is the only FF with a "love triangle" because FF7 is the only game where the protagonist has a identity crisis in which he's literally pretending to be a different person for half the game.
A typical rom-com love triangle is this: girl is attracted to two very different boys who bring out different sides of her personality. (Let's say one is a wealthy businessman with a heart of gold, one is a struggling artist who challenges her creatively). Both are valid options, but stories demand resolution, so eventually she must choose one.
This is a vast oversimplification, but here is the "love triangle" setup in FF7: Boy is attracted to two girls; one girl is initially attracted to him because of the fantasy/delusion he's projecting; one girl is literally the only person on the planet who knows his true self.
Or from Aerith's perspective: girl is attracted to two boys; one boy is her first love who dies trying to return to her (though she doesn't know this); one boy she's attracted to because he reminds her so much of her first love (since that's literally the man he's pretending to be).
There's no real love triangle in either of these situations, no real choice to be made, because your protagonists are never going to end the story choosing a fantasy/delusion vs. the real thing. The "love triangle" is resolved when Cloud's identity crisis is resolved, (and I don't see hundreds of pages of people debating whether or not Cloud was actually a First Class SOLDIER).
Obviously, SE will play into this because it's great dramatic tension, creates juicy conflict (and you're gonna need lots of conflict for three 40+ hr games), but again, narratively speaking, there is only one possible resolution for this.
I don't know what else you can ask them to do? There are always going to be people who interpret Cloud and Aerith's relationship romantically because Aerith is (at least initially) romantically attracted to Cloud. Every single interaction between them is going to be read with a romantic lens by some people, so what is SE gonna do? Just not have them interact? Even that won't stop some people. I legitmately think they could make part 3 an M-rated game where Cloud and Tifa go through every position of the Kama Sutra and there are still gonna be people who think that he's secretly thinking about Aerith the whole time.
Obviously SE is not going to make that game because they want to tell a broadly appealing, good story that will sell lots of copies. But by that same logic, they're not going to undermine their own storytelling just to tell off some shippers. Let people ship whatever the fuck they want, but the story is what it's alway been since 1997.
Shouldn't the fact that there aren't any other love triangles in mainline Final Fantasies prove that there isn't a real love triangle in this game?
FF7 is the only FF with a "love triangle" because FF7 is the only game where the protagonist has a identity crisis in which he's literally pretending to be a different person for half the game.
A typical rom-com love triangle is this: girl is attracted to two very different boys who bring out different sides of her personality. (Let's say one is a wealthy businessman with a heart of gold, one is a struggling artist who challenges her creatively). Both are valid options, but stories demand resolution, so eventually she must choose one.
This is a vast oversimplification, but here is the "love triangle" setup in FF7: Boy is attracted to two girls; one girl is initially attracted to him because of the fantasy/delusion he's projecting; one girl is literally the only person on the planet who knows his true self.
Or from Aerith's perspective: girl is attracted to two boys; one boy is her first love who dies trying to return to her (though she doesn't know this); one boy she's attracted to because he reminds her so much of her first love (since that's literally the man he's pretending to be).
There's no real love triangle in either of these situations, no real choice to be made, because your protagonists are never going to end the story choosing a fantasy/delusion vs. the real thing. The "love triangle" is resolved when Cloud's identity crisis is resolved, (and I don't see hundreds of pages of people debating whether or not Cloud was actually a First Class SOLDIER).
Obviously, SE will play into this because it's great dramatic tension, creates juicy conflict (and you're gonna need lots of conflict for three 40+ hr games), but again, narratively speaking, there is only one possible resolution for this.
I don't know what else you can ask them to do? There are always going to be people who interpret Cloud and Aerith's relationship romantically because Aerith is (at least initially) romantically attracted to Cloud. Every single interaction between them is going to be read with a romantic lens by some people, so what is SE gonna do? Just not have them interact? Even that won't stop some people. I legitmately think they could make part 3 an M-rated game where Cloud and Tifa go through every position of the Kama Sutra and there are still gonna be people who think that he's secretly thinking about Aerith the whole time.
Obviously SE is not going to make that game because they want to tell a broadly appealing, good story that will sell lots of copies. But by that same logic, they're not going to undermine their own storytelling just to tell off some shippers. Let people ship whatever the fuck they want, but the story is what it's alway been since 1997.
Maidenofwar
They/Them
In the church where she wears the brooch, no ribbon, because Zacks has ribbon, she is trying to save/protect both of them
shady
Pro Adventurer
I think it's compelling narratively to absolutely do what they do -- the problem I have is that when it gets to a certain point they should stop being ambiguous about it and actually come down hard and explicitly say what the reality is. But they don't, they continue to obfuscate and misdirect so that it's easy for one side or the to say 'well, actually..'
Again as i've said about Rebirth (without giving spoilers away) the game runs through Cloud and Tifa's story basically fresh using all the romantic tropes you can wish for, like there are huge chunks of it dedicated to them. But then they also add romantic stuff in for Cloud and Aerith, even AFTER you've done something with Tifa that is... well if you know what i'm talking about it's pretty shocking that it finally happened in FF7, it happens and then they're like ah well lets add in some moments for Cloud and Aerith now. I just feel like you're basically making the characters flip flop between each 'love interest' with specifically romantic moments which damages the story and the characters. Like again there is a moment between Cloud and Tifa in the game and instead of using that as a line to draw the sand in and say okay this is going one way now lets have the characters address this and move forward, instead they push Cloud in the other direction for a bit of time and it makes all the stuff that happened with Cloud and Tifa look cheap, just as when you do stuff with Cloud and Tifa it makes the stuff with Cloud and Aerith look cheaper.
So I would ask SE rather than continuing to play both sides even after doing something pretty romance confirming on one side, to address the situation after a certain point and say nope that's it, no matter which side that is. Instead what will happen is the game will come out, the seriously romantic moment will be all over social media, but we'll get countless interviews and Ultimania translations that will probably just say nothing about it and nothing will be addressed and this debate rolls on for another 3/4 years at which point who even knows if they'll address it properly in P3 as well.
Countless more debates of oh it's Tifa, no it's Aerith, no it's Tifa because of this, no it's Aerith because the only reason he's with Tifa is because she died etc. Like it's exhausting man, get your shit together and confirm a side so that we don't have to sit through more Dating Sim crap and we can enjoy the story and the romance properly.
That is all I personally ask
billy22
Pro Adventurer
There was a lot of needless fanservice even in Remake, and I agree about finding it mildly annoying that people are so focused on ships in this game. But what exactly is vague about Cloud/Tifa's relationship? Everything since the compilation has been very pro-Cloud/Tifa. Remake and Rebirth are no different.
I mean just look at the list of 'couple' things they are confirmed to have done:
- Kiss on a date
- Sex under the highwind
- Live together & raise adopted children
They already picked a clear lane. But there is no way the actual "debate" (lol) ends for good imo.
The only excuse left after two parts in this trilogy is "romancing Tifa is optional." But that can be easily counteracted with "but there's no option to romance Aerith."
The HA Highwind scene could be forced this time, we could watch Cloud/Tifa kiss several times while Cloud proclaims she is the only woman he's ever loved, and it would not matter. Because if that happens the inevitable coping mechanism will be that he was thinking of Aerith the entire time due to a dream sequence he had with her two chapters ago where he looked at her all misty-eyed. It will never end, because there are countless ways to make Cloud or Tifa look like d-bags and to pump up the Aerith 'ship with vague symbolism and "interpretations."
The trailers for Part 3 will 100% be heavily geared towards Aerith. Because of her death, they'll need to incentivize her fans to buy the third game. So marketing will step up with her plastered all over the trailers like "See? Look at all this Aerith! And look, she's hugging Cloud in a dream! Maybe she can come back to life and get her happy ending...wink wink"
Tbf there is a needless amount of fanservice in Remake and, from the looks of it, Rebirth. Remake for example was finding countless excuses to throw Tifa into Cloud's arms, or all the NPCs in Sector 5/Wall Market commenting on how Cloud/Aerith look like a good couple.
None of that was particularly necessary to the story OR characterization, it also tells us NOTHING of Cloud's feelings. These scenes exist purely as bait for shippers, who gladly eat it up and discuss them nonstop. It also adds fuel to the fire. Which Square wants. The more people that talk about the game, the easier it is to market.
I've been watching that stream that's going around and so far i find cloud and aerith's interactions very jarring. they'll be buddy buddy, absolutely zero romantic undertones at all, sibling-like energy and then suddenly you'll get a weird moment that could be interpreted as romantic. by weird i don't mean the moment itself is weird, it's just weird because it feels out of place
Last edited:
I agree SE need to stop with the misleading trailers and be real. They’re just adding fuel to the fire with them SE trailers. You’re right. It has turned into to a dating sims shipping fight
it’s all over twitter right now holy snap ugh
r_monk
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- RM
Wait, so then is it an equal amount of romantic content for both? I got the impression that it was heavily skewed toward Cloud and Tifa with a smattering of Cloud and Aerith moments.
I've been watching the streamer starting from Kalm and he's just finished the first GS visit. I think something that gets forgotten in the LTD is that romance is just a portion of the game. So far the "romantic" moments are not something that a nonshipper would care about imo. just small interactions throughout the game that could be interpreted as romantic if you're looking for it, but it's not a focus at all, for either of the girls. it makes sense to me so far why Darth and other leakers would say
that there's no resolution to the LTD.