SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Axiom]

So is the war over? Are we going to be home for Christmas?

The burning question of the Love Triangle Debate was "Who does Cloud Love?" and it isn't really a shipping question so much as a question of canonicity. It feels like with everything in Rebirth, we've gotten a pretty close to definitive answer, right? Because, sure, the most romantic scene between Cloud and Tifa was the "optional date," but who Cloud chooses to kiss isn't based on player choice. He only kisses Tifa, and he almost kisses her a few times besides.

Is the kiss not enough? Does he need a press conference to explain his feelings? I thought words weren't the only way...

There isn't any reason why a person who prefers the Cloud x Aerith pairing to stop shipping it, but it doesn't seem to be fair that the proof being provided as to why Cloud x Tifa isn't canon despite this and supplemental text proof is based largely on bad faith interpretations and arbitrary hand-waving.

It's over for me. And I imagine many others.

If Cloud loves both girls, then Tifa wins. Tifa got a kiss.

"The kiss is optional" is cope. If you have to sit in front of a computer typing out why a kiss scene isnt canon in a jRPG where one of the major selling point is date mechanics, you've lost. Not just the shipping war, but at life in general.

 

[luminous03]

Anyone run into Jenny in Costa del Sol? She’s sort of the embodiment of some of the more hardcore CA fans lol

Can you tell us what she did or says?

 

[thetriplerhyme]

It's over for me. And I imagine many others.

If Cloud loves both girls, then Tifa wins. Tifa got a kiss.

- SAME! What can you argue and besides do anyone think the devs will create a protagonist shifting from one to another? Cloud is Loyal and that's only to Tifa. Its obvious on how he treats them differently.

 

[Legend45]

Anyone know how much more until Gongaga? I just got to the coral region.

 

[r_monk]

Can you tell us what she did or says?

Lmao she is just trashtalking and straight up negging Tifa to her face the whole time. Tifa, of course, is nice the entire time (too nice IMO).

 

[Hix]

View attachment 14739

This has got to be satire, there is absolutely no way anyone has actually played or experienced even one hour of Final Fantasy VII, and/or it's supplementary media and come away with a take so utterly delusional as this.

The entire, literal story happens only because of Cloud's feelings for Tifa. Cloud's arc is shaped around it, from childhood, to adulthood, to the future and beyond. It's one of the few, enduring facets of his character - and 21 years of life - that is ever made explicit.

I have no doubt Cloud and Aerith share a very close bond, nakamas according to Cloud, but if anyone suggests it's "rare true love" after a relatively short space of time together then I'd suggest that individual doesn't actually know what love is.

Aerith ‘s fate will not change at this point, so what will Cloud get after after that? He is alive after all.
Do you wish him d*e to find Aerith in the livestream? Or just leave a lonely life without loving anyone else until his days come? Or he can love someone else but just not Tifa…?

You're asking too much of a CA fan I'm afraid, the ship largely sails on vibes rather than actual basis in the story or indeed anything beyond it.

I will say, the general opinion among "Cleriths" seems to be that Cloud is supposed to just be miserable now for the rest of his life (mercifully the end of ACC and Dirge show that doesn't happen) but yeah. See Aerith can be deeply in love with Zack, but she's allowed to move on - "can't live in the past" and all that - but Cloud? No Cloud has to die alone because he can't get over this girl who never even really got to know him. Don't worry, it's not supposed to make sense.

Can you tell us what she did or says?

Jenny basically says she expected, after Johnny's bragging, Tifa to be something special, light up the room, be chic, but turns out she's just disappointing and bland/normal. It's all a bit more ridiculous than it sounds though cause she's literally female Johnny.

 

[GamerSkull]

Nah, you see… Zack died so Aerith deserves be happy and find someone else. “Gotta look forward, not back.”

Aerith’s death doesn’t apply in the same way though. For Cloud, he needs to anticipate his reunion with Aerith after death. Nothing else is more important. Gotta look backwards, not forwards.

 

[Ruri]

Anyone know how much more until Gongaga? I just got to the coral region.

Step by step breakdown of storybeats if you'd like: But be warned as Rebirth spoilers!

Spoiler

If you mean post Costa Del Sol and you're scaling the mountain. There's mines at the top that involve Yuffie gameplay. There's Corel at the top of those which is quite short lived, then onto Gold Saucer which is interrupted by Corel prison which combined are quite lengthy then Gongaga is finally on the horizon. You have got a bit to go and some story hours actually, but as someone who was looking forward to that also, I'd rather give you a clear rundown unlike me who was was also waiting.

 

[Legend45]

Step by step breakdown of storybeats if you'd like: But be warned as Rebirth spoilers!

Spoiler

If you mean post Costa Del Sol and you're scaling the mountain. There's mines at the top that involve Yuffie gameplay. There's Corel at the top of those which is quite short lived, then onto Gold Saucer which is interrupted by Corel prison which combined are quite lengthy then Gongaga is finally on the horizon. You have got a bit to go and some story hours actually, but as someone who was looking forward to that also, I'd rather give you a clear rundown unlike me who was was also waiting.

Spoiler

Oh right i completely forgot about the 1st round of Gold Saucer. I cant wait to see it in updated graphics. I made sure to max out Tifa so i pray i get her. Hoping Barret's section is amazing but i really am eager to see how good the Gongaga section is.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I will say, the general opinion among "Cleriths" seems to be that Cloud is supposed to just be miserable now for the rest of his life (mercifully the end of ACC and Dirge show that doesn't happen) but yeah. See Aerith can be deeply in love with Zack, but she's allowed to move on - "can't live in the past" and all that - but Cloud? No Cloud has to die alone because he can't get over this girl who never even really got to know him. Don't worry, it's not supposed to make sense.

- when I argue a CA with this thinking " that's not our story its devs.. this is a tragic story"

LMAO NOO ITS NOOOT! I rest my case lmao on this thinking thats why when KISS happens they all panic saying ' its doesnt mattter! INVALID!

 

[gulava]

do anyone think the devs will create a protagonist shifting from one to another?

there is a precedent

 

[gulava]

I have no doubt Cloud and Aerith share a very close bond, nakamas according to Cloud, but if anyone suggests it's "rare true love" after a relatively short space of time together then I'd suggest that individual doesn't actually know what love is.

to be completely fair here, the short time they spent together doesn’t pose as an issue as there are other pairings in ff that spent even less time together, but still manage to make sense narrative wise (e.g locke/celes). CAs glaring problem is how it doesnt align with the game events or the overarching narrative itself. fans of the ship claim aerith death devastated cloud to no end, which drove him to seek revenge, but cloud had been after sephiroth since the beginning of the game. (also cloud went ice skating right after aerith death lol meanwhile in ff8 you are locked into the main story after rinoa goes into a coma)

 

[shady]

A few streamers are finally starting to get to Gongaga and particular the Golden Saucer date

Spoiler

It's interesting to see the reaction to the kiss from the streamer themselves and the chat, all going absolutely wild. There's no way when they put the kiss in this game they didn't expect this kind of reaction

 

[Empyrea]

The funny thing about CA's argument that Cloud waiting out the clock to be reunited with Aerith in the lifestream is that it reminds me of Magic Knight Rayearth.

Not the best written by any means (I will forever side-eye the main pair because Hikaru is friggin 14 and Lantis must be at least twice her age if it's not just CLAMP's art making it seem so), but even that one hammered home that someone being happy in death because that's only when they get to be together with the person they love is wrong and a tragedy that must never be repeated. And that came from a show I watched when I was 10.

 

[gulava]

even that one hammered home that someone being happy in death because that's only when they get to be together with the person they love is wrong and a tragedy that must never be repeated.

pandora hearts is a manga that tackled this trope masterfully. jack obsession with reuniting with lacie (even at the cost of dooming the world) was rightfully depicted as toxic and harmful; for both jack and everyone connected to him and her. it was one of the main driving set pieces in the narrative; and it had a strong build up and payoff at the end, which can not be said about CA.


cloud’s soldier persona was conjured precisely because he couldn’t keep up with the pain of losing his mother and hometown (before he even met aerith). he was riddled with both guilt and shame for failing to protect his loved ones, which he ultimately came face to face with during the lifestream sequence, and accepted it as a part of himself.
and it does not make sense for him to regress after all that development because of a girl he knew for less than month.

one more note: i have seen CAs bringing up locke/celes or squall/runoa to support their pairing, when both ship barely share any similarities with CAs.
locke/celes makes sense because it aligns with the main narrative of ff6 of overcoming pain and living in the present with locke letting go of rachel and embracing his newfound relationship with celes.
squall/rinoa are both lonely individuals with abandonment issues; albeit they have different coping mechanisms that led them to clash with each other. And they ultimately found love and solace with each other.
but CA represent none of these.
aerith dies so cant really say it’s about living in the present if they claim he wants to be with her in death
aerith and cloud are lonely individuals but
cloud was the one who isolated himself
aerith was perceived as a pariah because of her cetra lineage

 

[Empyrea]

pandora hearts is a manga that tackled this trope masterfully. jack obsession with reuniting with lacie (even at the cost of dooming the world) was rightfully depicted as toxic and harmful; for both jack and everyone connected to him and her. it was one of the main driving set pieces in the narrative; and it had a strong build up and payoff at the end, which can not be said about CA.

Hey! Someone who knows Pandora Hearts! I watched the anime, but I don't really know much about what happens beyond that. Well, not much aside from how it's basically depression: the story.

My sister did read the manga, though, and she pretty much said what you did minus the CA comparison.

I also recall that while Oz and Alice are torn apart, it's stated that they will reunite not in death but in their next life.

 

[eleamaya]

Not the best written by any means (I will forever side-eye the main pair because Hikaru is friggin 14 and Lantis must be at least twice her age if it's not just CLAMP's art making it seem so)

I'm in Eagle x Hikaru ship lol.

it aligns with the main narrative of ff6 of overcoming pain and living in the present with Locke letting go of Rachel and embracing his newfound relationship with Celes.

This works with Zack/Aerith/Cloud but the childhood friend and the motivation of what Cloud wanna become aka Tifa Lockhart exist.

 

[gulava]

I also recall that while Oz and Alice are torn apart, it's stated that they will reunite not in death but in their next life.

the author stated oz and alice relationship was purely platonic lol so again nothing for CA

 

[gulava]

This works with Zack/Aerith/Cloud but the childhood friend and the motivation of what Cloud wanna become aka Tifa Lockhart exist.

yeah definitely, i dont think locke and aerith falling for someone else detract from their affection for their first love, but as you said, tifa exists so lol

 

[Empyrea]

I'm in Eagle x Hikaru ship lol.

As am I! At least with the condition of, "if I have to actually pick a ship."

Nonetheless, you have no idea how happy I am to know another Hikaru x Eagle shipper exists out in the wild xD

 

[Hix]

Just reading through some of the, honestly wild, theories in the General Spoiler Discussion thread and it's crazy how people let shipping dictate where the game is going in their eyes. Yes, I'm primarily talking about CA.

Any sacrifice to narrative consistency, character development, even gameplay can be made if it assists in making CA a reality. This one relationship is so important to the franchise that every single detail must be reinterpreted (and, crucially, ignored) in light of it.

I actually saw someone object to a 3000 word breakdown/analysis of the ending because, and I wish I was making this up, the analysis stated that Aerith dies. Can't have that, she has to be either alive or coming back to life, or an alternate dimension Aerith comes and replaces her and has a relationship with Cloud (which isn't weird at all)! You literally can't have a serious discussion about the games because the plot has diverged so heavily from where some shippers have mentally dropped anchor.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I actually saw someone object to a 3000 word breakdown/analysis of the ending because, and I wish I was making this up, the analysis stated that Aerith dies. Can't have that, she has to be either alive or coming back to life, or an alternate dimension Aerith comes and replaces her and has a relationship with Cloud (which isn't weird at all)!

Let's be real, if Aerith is "coming back to life" in any capacity, it's going to be with Zack. Honestly, for this "debate" to even exist, you need to ignore Tifa, Zack and that Aerith dies. (And Cloud doesn't.)

The thing that I find ironically funny is that a lot of CA shippers romanticise everything about Cloud and Aerith. She dies, he's grieving and guilty, it must've been romantic love, why else would he be "that" devastated! Which honestly implies something very sad in the fundamental views of these people. Never mind that seeing someone murdered right in front of your eyes would do a number on anyone even if it was a stranger and at his core Cloud is a typical shounen protagonist. "There's not a thing I don't cherish!"

So everything in regards to CA is viewed through a romantic lens and yet at the same time, CT is held up as some kind of platonic ideal. I really want to hear a platonic reason for a guy to join the military during wartime to be noticed and become special for a particular girl. People can say that Tifa is just a side character but Cloud's story wouldn't even have started without her so?

Much like most love triangles, this debate is kind of a sham. Everyone is free to ship whatever they want but it's another thing to maintain that the story and characters are something they're not. Though, ultimately that's irrelevant too.

 

[shady]

Just reading through some of the, honestly wild, theories in the General Spoiler Discussion thread and it's crazy how people let shipping dictate where the game is going in their eyes. Yes, I'm primarily talking about CA.

Any sacrifice to narrative consistency, character development, even gameplay can be made if it assists in making CA a reality. This one relationship is so important to the franchise that every single detail must be reinterpreted (and, crucially, ignored) in light of it.

I actually saw someone object to a 3000 word breakdown/analysis of the ending because, and I wish I was making this up, the analysis stated that Aerith dies. Can't have that, she has to be either alive or coming back to life, or an alternate dimension Aerith comes and replaces her and has a relationship with Cloud (which isn't weird at all)! You literally can't have a serious discussion about the games because the plot has diverged so heavily from where some shippers have mentally dropped anchor.

It would help of the developers just came out and said what we all know, instead of being vague or contradictory for years. Though i’m sure this still wouldn’t stop some people

 

[Graymouse]

It would help of the developers just came out and said what we all know, instead of being vague or contradictory for years. Though i’m sure this still wouldn’t stop some people

If a romantic hug and a kiss doesn't stop them, nothing will. Somehow it is made out to be platonic. We all know how things would be if the shoe was on the other foot.

Edited to add: If that was the case it would suddenly be canon!

 

[Hix]

It would help of the developers just came out and said what we all know, instead of being vague or contradictory for years. Though i’m sure this still wouldn’t stop some people

Nothing vague at all about the way the Remake Trilogy has been though, to be honest. A group of developers sat around a desk and came to a collective decision - made in full awareness of this entire discourse - that one girl was going to get a kiss and the other wouldn't (and would die shortly after questioning her own feelings)

The developers very much nailed their colours to the mast this time round and it's still being ignored. Maybe they should have been so overt from the beginning - though I'd argue it was pretty obvious back in 1997 too - but they can only do what they can do.

On that note, it's disappointing that there continues to be LTD comments on that thread (someone just tried to work the old "koibito" red herring into a discussion on Zack?) rather than bringing them here, knowing people aren't willing to respond and are trying to respect the Admins wishes.