Maidenofwar
They/Them
... and then there were two 
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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And also I’m an Asian, and I don’t support the claim “holding hands interlocking fingers with friends is common and platonic” IMO people can get away with a platonic hug honestly but that way of holding hands is just hard to explain the context to make it entirely platonic. Must think really hard to come up with a good one.…that is also why rebirth ending is sending mixing signals to me. Because in my play through, after Cloud kissed Tifa, he and Aerith held hands in that way looked really questionable even though he said they are Nakama.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
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- Rye
Funnily enough, I thought their dynamic at least in Remake was kind of similar to the sibling-dynamics I've seen in manga/anime. (Stress on the word manga/anime, ha ha.) Like, Aerith is the ditzy older sister who flirt-teases her oblivious younger brother and Cloud's the long-suffering younger brother who yells at her to put her pants on. But that was just me and I'm honestly not saying it to dismiss CA as a ship.
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
I see it more like the Jessie/Cloud dynamic personally. I think half the fun of the bold and flirty girls in this game is how flustered it makes Cloud lmao. I honestly imagine Jessie and Cloud would have had a similar dynamic had she lived. That said - I think the underlying Zack connection deepens the bond/confusion in the bond between Cloud and Aerith.
Now Cloud and Yuffie... That is peak sibling dynamic lmao
Ryeleigh
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Yep, I thought the same about Jessie and Cloud and Aerith. There were also a lot of similarities between their interactions and how they were framed.
Lol, I've seen bits of Yuffie and Cloud's Gold Saucer date and it was indeed cute. Never thought that Yuffie would've had a crush on Zack but that was cute too.
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
Cloud gets so flustered when openly flirted with haha I love it. That's what makes it extra adorable when he (rather clumsily) pulls out the moves for Tifa lmao. Squeezing the life outta her or just yeeting her into him lmao he's hilarious.
Ngl even though I'm a diehard Cloti - Yuffies was 110% my favourite scene to watch. That was absolutely wonderful and Cloud was acting like himself more than any of the other interactions. He's really just a big goofball and that really shines in Yuffies GS date.
Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
Maidenofwar
They/Them
So CA is semi canon
The interpretation that Tifa is his second choice has been around since 1997, and it was stupid even then. No one can look at the OG honestly and seriously think that was ever a reasonable interpretation. It was always a case of people assuming their assumptions are correct. "But they looked in love" no they didn't, people just assumed that from prior experiences with storytelling where the "meet cute" girl is always the love interest or where the most important female to the story is always the love interest. They couldn't wrap their brains around the fact that the reason Aerith had more prominence in the early game MIGHT be because she wouldn't be around for the second half, and they couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that just because a characters focus is during the early game, while another characters focus is in the second half, that that does not mean the first girl is the love interest, or that she'd have more focus in the second half as well, had she lived.
No, had she lived she simply wouldn't have had the focus in the first half either.
But people played the game, decided "she's the love interest", and then stubbornly refused to move on for 30 years.
luminous03
Lv. 25 Adventurer
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Guys, i heard that if you select chapter 14 but without zack's interlude story it will skip the dream date right to sephiroth speech about multiverse. Is it true ?
shady
Pro Adventurer
Yes in a second playthrough if you choose to skip Zacks scenes it skips the S5 date and the Church scene.
As for CA’s here great, i really hope anybody who is a CA doesn't feel unwelcome here or anything like that, or anybody who ships any dynamic really (within reason haha) everybody should be free to ship what they want and not made to feel bad about it. As long as there is debate in good faith and it’s not about things like how Cloud wanted to die in AC to be with Aerith and stuff then I personally welcome everyone here, stops things from becoming an echo chamber for starters!
I get what’s being said about CA, to say there is absolutely nothing there would be categorically false. For starters SE can’t seem to help themselves from making sure the LTD lives on for whatever reason and secondly there are clearly moments that you could define as romantic between them, if you say there aren’t then I think you’re being willfully ignorant. I don’t think it’s an accident either I think you’re made to believe there is something there, particularly on Aeriths side, even though
By the end Aerith doesn’t seem to know how much she even likes Cloud with her Church speech.
I mean i’m a “Cloti” because I believe that’s what the narrative has said since the OG and I feel it even more now in Remake and Rebirth. However i’d have nothing against CA if that is the story the devs chose to portray. The problem now is that in service of the LTD the devs have basically cornered themselves here because if they hardcore push “Clerith” in Part 3 they have a major problem on their hands, because they essentially have to scrap all the romantic development between Cloud and Tifa, they have to make Cloud look like a complete asshole, stomp all over Tifa and her feelings, stomp all over Zack and his feelings after showing us he was doing nothing but caring for Aerith all game (who apparently is in support of Clerith according to some CAs) and they basically have to trash a lot of the narrative they’ve built up. The thing is despite all this they put enough crumbs particularly at the end of Rebirth to suggest to people maaayybeee (if you interpret it all as romantic) which is just stupid of them and kinda comes out of left field compared to the rest of the game before it, I won’t say why but if you romance Tifa the optional and non optional stuff is extremely telling.
This was the game to make CA the story in my opinion, and if that is the case I think they blew it and as I said backed themselves into a corner for Part 3, I wouldn’t have minded if they pushed CA from minute one in this game and interwoven it through the story with a payoff that made you think damn okay they’re pushing CA for part 3. Instead they pushed Tifa for the majority of the game then just said hey wait we kinda need to focus on Aerith, interwoven with Zack scenes in the last couple chapters here (for obvious reasons) and went with it. They even teased moments to come like the Lifestream which is a very important CT moment.
So I guess that’s kinda where we sit at the moment, but unless they dare to do what I mentioned I don’t see how CT and ZA are not the endgame here. Oh they’d also have to dramatically change part 3 too, no/or change the lifestream, no/or change highwind etc
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faefolk
Pro Adventurer
Ohhh true. To be fair to me, I was just thinking of the wife/singer/Barnum dynamic and didn't even consider the actual love story in the film. I didn't even think to compare the handhold. Man, I need to watch that movie again. It's so good.
Definitely going to go listen to Rewrite the Stars now. Though I feel like I'm now going to imagine Cloud and Tifa swinging around instead lol
thetriplerhyme
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- thetriplerhyme
- sooo that dream date is optional??? OMG I gonna remember that on my second playthrough THAAAANK YOU!!
luminous03
Lv. 25 Adventurer
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Now watch CA going unhinged about it because it's not optional and prove that CA Is CanOn
LunarTarotGirl
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- Lunarae
.Hi! Thanks. I am in general curious about what CA think Cloud should do post game, even post ACC…cause the story ends there but the character goes beyond. And he does cameos in other games a lotI can’t ship CA because she is dead. But that also makes me a bad Cloti, since the only reason I don’t ship CA is because she is dead.
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Ok so MY perspective : I think regardless of what I interpret his relationship with Aerith is or isn't both Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings for eachother in the LS, the Ultimania confirms it and so will the trilogy. And as I always say Cloud was thrown in a tube at 16 so time basically stopped for him. He had feelings for Tifa when he went in the tube and I don't think those just went away when he woke up. Remake states it's been very little time since he arrived in Midgar. A day or so when you're talk to Marle.
I think even if his feelings for Tifa are probably confused with all that mental strain they wouldn't be gone. And Rebirth shows rather clearly he does have feelings. Then and now. And so I don't consider his feelings for Tifa in the "past". They're part of the current situation whether he realizes it or not.
So it wouldn't exactly "be moving on with Tifa" after Aerith dies as it would be realizing feelings he always had but the situation locked away. I don't think him being with Tifa has anything to do with Aerith's death but about feelings he had before hand that are now coming to the forefront. And this is regardless of what I make think about his feelings are regarding Aerith.
In life you can realize suddenly that you loved someone all along and they loved you regardless of what else is going on. You also can be oblivious to what feelings for someone mean. Feelings don't really run on a clock. And in this case even if he was unaware of his feelings for Tifa before the LS he wouldn't be for much longer.
And in that case whatever his feelings for either girl he would make a choice to act on those feelings. Not in these sense of choosing a person to be with as I don't subscribe to seeing people as menu options. But in the sense of choosing to act on feelings to bring a friendship to the next level. And with Tifa I believe the events after this and Ultimanias show he did.
With Aerith this just never happened. He was oblivious and confused about her feelings and stayed that way. He thought she was a great friend and cherished her and I believe there was attraction but that doesn't a romantic relationship make.
And then the Aerith dies so whatever development there could have been or not is now forever stopped.
Then regardless he in Rebirth With Tifa they both got to share mutual feelings. And I believe the Remake trilogy will also show this. And this stands whether ppl think he did or didn't have these feelings up to that point.
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Now based on this what he should do afterwards? I don't think the story lines up than he would be living his life completely single or searching for the ghost of Aerith forever. Especially Aerith whose entire theme is living in the moment and has this sense of cherishing what's in front of you it doesn't align with what she stands for either. To have a guy forever stuck on her unable to get over her or her death doesn't match the themes of his or her story.
And I don't think romantic reunion is the point of the PromisedLand personally.
As I have stated before. He and Tifa both together refer to Aerith at the end of OG in a "look if we die there's always hope in death. We will see Aerith and everyone we lost" kinda way.
This is not I believe a declaration of oh so ok now I will wait to die to be with said loved ones but an expression of hope that no matter what everything will be ok because worst case scenario they'll meet Aerith and everyone else. Death's not the bad end. If that makes sense?
And also
Even if we say oh he loved her romantically he still didn't know her feelings because he was oblivious the entire time he was with her and then we see what she says in Rebirth that's gonna confuse him even more. So what motive would there be to think he would reunite with someone who he didn't even piece together loved him like that?
So I don't agree with the idea after death he is actively waiting to die in ACC or anything like that. Nor do I believe he is searching for her across dimensions.
I see it as Aerith in a sense has a semblance of "mono-no aware" in her story with Cloud. The idea that things in life are transient and aren't forever and that there is beauty in these fleeting moments. That things we cherish don't have to be forever to be meaningful. And I think this idea Cloud must look for her forever clashes with that.
I think he cherished her in the moment. And afterwards he appreciates the time they did spend together and I don't think he needs to be pining after her ghost or forever single to do that.
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Now about Had Aerith lived:
Now had she lived Nojima himself had said well maybe it would have gone well but she had a responsibility to the Planet implying that it probably couldn't have happened even if both wanted it to. And even if she had lived this responsibility as a Cetra wouldn't just go away. And I do think Rebirth nails that idea of wrong place wrong time for both of them. And with the revelation of their feelings for Zack and Tifa it's even harder to think it would have happened in this timeline with this situation. Could it have happened had things been different? I don't think it's impossible.
But in that same vein there isn't much use in worrying about alternative outcomes because I don't think they influence the story. We're talking about this story and based on this one those above are my thoughts.
And to be honest I don't ship things because they're canon. For me canon is completely seperate and then I ship whatever I like. So I don't think Aerith dying or living influenced the fact that I ship them. And her dying also didn't stop me. I am just explaining my thoughts on the story.
I hope that is clear and I have given some perspective in this topic.
And I hope you enjoy what is to come! ^^
Man I hope he gets a happy ending though. Zack is the best. He was quite literally too good for the world.
I feel like Cleriths ship shafts everyone so bad. For them it's like Aerith is cool because she's waiting for her manz to die, Zack is just in an eternal and really depressing friend zone (cause he literally died trying to reunite with her) Cloud is just miserable and waiting for death to be reunited with Aerith and Tifa is being used as a stand in girlfriend/co-parent/housewife with literally none of the benefits. Like Jesus Christ, what a depressing ship.
I'm all for people being like 'man I loved Cloud and Aeriths dynamic and wish she lived so we could've seen their potential relationship develop' and writing fanfics and generally being hyped about this idea but like... Heck... The ones who end the story thinking Cloud has such a miserable ending. Ick. I hate it.
It's why this particular ship bothers me so much. Saw a video titled something along the lines of "Cloud and Aerith, a perfect romance" on youtube a while back and it just baffles me that people try to defend this.
The Clerith version of FFVII is the worst version of FFVII
The Clerith version or Cloud and Aeriths bond is the worst version of Clouds and Aeriths bond.
And the Clerith versions of Cloud and Aerith are the worst versions of Cloud and Aerith.
shady
Pro Adventurer
This is a great balanced take. I definitely get the feeling of “What if”, like what if Aerith didn’t die, what if Tifa or Zack wasn’t a thing. I think maybe that’s what’s so interesting or appealing about their story really, i would be intrigued for Part 3 (if it is indeed CT ZA and not CA) for them to somehow address the elephant in the room properly and say something like in another lifetime who knows, but that never happened and that’s okay because the time they did share together was amazing and in the end they both ended up where they were supposed to or really wanted to be. I think some kind of “closure” on the LTD is not only fair on the characters but also the fans at this point, whichever way they choose to run with it
I don't think people pretend that there aren't romantic scenes, but what matters is the context and purpose of the scenes.
Is it just the scene that is romantic in nature, or is that felt by the characters as well? Is it felt by both Cloud and Aerith or just by one? Is the nature of the romance centered on them developing feelings for each other or them dealing with their own feelings for someone else. If there are feelings there are they genuine or not? If they are genuine are they noteworthy to the point where we need to really address them as being meaningful or not?
I mean, Zidane tries to make a pass at a waitress, Tidus has a dream where Rikku and Yuna fight over them. Clearly both of those are "romantic", no one pretends that they're not, but does that make them worth commenting on?
And there is no getting past the fact that at no point during the story is there ever a Cloud who is free from his Zack influence, interacting with an Aerith who is free from her Zack complex.
There are so many layer of "what about" here that I just don't see any justification to take an Aerith and Cloud romance more seriously than say a Jessie/Cloud one.
My favorite female character of all time is probably Rem from Re-Zero, and she got ROYALLY screwed over. But at least for her there has been direct confirmation that the main character essentially loves her as much as the main female love interest of the show, hell, the main character straight up attempted to elope with her and there is even a "what-if" story where they do elope and grow old together happily, and yet she STILL doesn't get the same level of people validating her potential relationship that Aerith gets.
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AncientGrimoire
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- Grim
A potential reason for the Sector 5 date and church scene being optional on a second run, is that the Aerith in these scenes is heavily implied to not be the same Aerith we’ve been travelling alongside throughout Remake and Rebirth, that she is either an alternate Aerith or outright the original Aerith, that has been hiding in this universe to safeguard her White Materia in a gambit that pays off in the end with Rebirth’s Aerith being able to retrieve it from Cloud once he returns to his universe.
I’m still surprised it’s skippable alongside the Zack scenes. It’s kind of an essential scene, not to mention a coda for the Cloud and Aerith relationship across the entire compilation, whereas the final back to back hand hold after defeating Sephiroth and then the farewells at the Tiny Bronco act as the resolution to Rebirth Cloud and Aerith’s story and relationship.
I’m still surprised it’s skippable alongside the Zack scenes. It’s kind of an essential scene, not to mention a coda for the Cloud and Aerith relationship across the entire compilation, whereas the final back to back hand hold after defeating Sephiroth and then the farewells at the Tiny Bronco act as the resolution to Rebirth Cloud and Aerith’s story and relationship.
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luminous03
Lv. 25 Adventurer
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And i think this is a recent information that's why people haven't been discussing it, but still it's an interesting choice
I actually think the LTD would be clearer if Aerith hadnt died. If Rebirth ended at the Gold Saucer, it would be clear that Cloud loves Tifa the most.
With Aerith's death, any attraction that Cloud may have felt for her is now bundled with his guilt over her death. This can be very difficult for the audience to sort out the difference. If you want to believe Cloud loves Aerith, you might just straight up not make a distinction at all.
With Aerith's death, any attraction that Cloud may have felt for her is now bundled with his guilt over her death. This can be very difficult for the audience to sort out the difference. If you want to believe Cloud loves Aerith, you might just straight up not make a distinction at all.
luminous03
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Sooo, any thoughts here ?
I would hold my homies hand in a loving gesture for a bunch of reasons, and yes, that would definitely be one of them.
Hix
Pro Adventurer
Whether or not you can interpret the overtones between Cloud and Aerith as romantic is, and always has been, irrelevant.
The burden for Cleriths is not proving CA could be thing, it's proving why CT (and ZA) isn't - despite the story making clear otherwise.
I'd say that part of the audience audience lacks imagination then.
Advent Children Complete clearly shows Cloud has moved on from his guilt and grief by the end (and it's a distant memory in Dirge) but even had one no experience with those, Cloud is a 21 year old man. He met Aerith some two weeks prior to her death. Their relationship, such as it was, was at most a miniscule part of their lives until that point and even less into the future.
Do they honestly expect Cloud to spend the rest of his life grieving alone when Tifa, who it can no longer be denied he shares mutual feelings with, is right there? Cleriths will say yes, but at the same time quote endlessly about "moving on" and "looking forward, not back" when it comes to Zerith.
The burden for Cleriths is not proving CA could be thing, it's proving why CT (and ZA) isn't - despite the story making clear otherwise.
I'd say that part of the audience audience lacks imagination then.
Advent Children Complete clearly shows Cloud has moved on from his guilt and grief by the end (and it's a distant memory in Dirge) but even had one no experience with those, Cloud is a 21 year old man. He met Aerith some two weeks prior to her death. Their relationship, such as it was, was at most a miniscule part of their lives until that point and even less into the future.
Do they honestly expect Cloud to spend the rest of his life grieving alone when Tifa, who it can no longer be denied he shares mutual feelings with, is right there? Cleriths will say yes, but at the same time quote endlessly about "moving on" and "looking forward, not back" when it comes to Zerith.