SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

Ah, so the love interest was Madam M all along. She’s got it all: aggressive hand-holding action and all the innuendo of a happy ending.

Isn’t that what we all want? A happy ending?

I mean, don't you? Especially when they don't cost extra.

Twitter "For You" tab hurts my brain :

Spoiler

View attachment 15060

So, this is an amazing example of how even considering Cloud not being in love with Aerith is an outside context problem for Cleriths. They actually have trouble envisioning the scenario as being one in which Cloud doesn't love Aerith. So of course the Cloud that kisses Tifa must be doing it because he feels rejected because Aerith loves someone else.

I know this was like 50 pages ago but this forum has been so dead you'd think Sephiroth caught it praying for Holy So I've been going through stuff I missed, liking old posts, and found this one. Thank you for posting it here Grim, I would likely never have seen it on my own (not the sorta thing my algorithm finds for me) and I loved it. What does Cloud cling to, to convince himself he's still him?

"I have to help her." My feels...

To be a good man for Tifa is Cloud's mental anchor. If he thinks he's being a burden or harmful, he shuts down or as we see in ACC, removes himself from the equation.

Luthor... Ok I'll stop reacting to shit people said weeks ago. For now.

But only for now! [/sing song]

Notice how in this scenario of theirs that they’ve invented in their mad lab, Cloud is an absolute jerk?

Like not spiky McJerkface jerk.

An actual terrible, hurtful, spiteful jerk who gets bitterly jealous and rebound kisses another girl. To what end? Hopefully make Aerith jealous?!

Oh how romantic! I’m actually swooning over this beautiful star-crossed lovers epic tale of romance and love

In every scenario they are inventing in order to make their ship work, it’s at such an extreme detriment to the characters, turning them into their literal exact opposites. Like it’s not enough they have to make poor Aerith a zombie in order to make Clerith work, but poor Cloud might as well be one too since apparently he’s not allowed any autonomy or decency in their scenario.

There’s coping, and then there is the complete lack of self awareness to realise that you are turning your preferred characters in your preferred pairing into awful people just to facilitate a “romance” that is founded on jealousy, rebound kisses, deceit, and hurting others feelings.

Romance of the century I guess smdh

A lot of the problem is that they are so fixated on their desired conclusion they take it as their predicate. That twists absolutely everything else.

The claim's against it I have seen are
Cloud didn't move into the kiss or understand what was happening ( they must think Square Enix are idiot's to make an almost kiss scene not romantic and Square are not so they added Yuffie telling people who don't get it SO THE PLAYER knows XD.
They also say Cloud is Jealous when asking Aerith about Zack.
Cloud didn't react to Tifas supposed Death like he cared ( Yeah death reactions should be used as evidence apparently...)
They conviently don't mention

• the talk between Cloud and Tifa before the Kiss
• the whole lifestream sequence with Tifas "Cloud I need you" wonder why developers added that line that absolutely won't come back in mideel.
• Tifa being able to see Clouds POV of his memories. Since when you actually think about it these aren't exactly Tifas memories of the events it's from Clouds POV. Possibly have connected Lifestreams? I'm not saying Soulmates but.... Would be funny.

So yeah Gongaga is one of the most important scenes that they can't really have evidence against apart from saying it's not romantic which yeah ain't exactly gonna work for anyone XD.

There is one more claim I've seen that Sephiroth has removed Tifas power to be able to help Cloud in the lifestream. You know Tifa and her famous word superpowers.......

That's another thing that burns a lot of Clerith bottoms. Aerith can be helpful to Cloud because she can sense things due to her special heritage. Tifa can be useful to Cloud because she is special to Cloud and he trusts her. She's just plain important to him. Sephiroth's been trying to take Tifa's ability to support him through gaslighting and one attempted murder. It didn't work.

He asks if Tifa has already talked with Aerith, Tifa responds with "no", Cloud responds with "she must still have feelings for him", Tifa responds with "I think it's a little more complicated than that".

Honestly not too sure what Tifa means by that though, if she's referring to the weird connection between Cloud and Zack then that's a strange wording of the sentence in that regard. If she's referring to something about Aerith perhaps having feelings for Cloud now that feels irrelevant.

It's also about Zack's falsely remembered (In Nibelheim) Death.

Isn’t there a Japanese trope about “indirect kisses” when it comes to sharing food and drinks? So imagine how much a big deal it is to actually kiss.

There is, yes. And real kisses are more serious than indirect kisses. A common comedy trope is to have someone blush about an indirect kiss regardless of how intimate they've already been.

This is like the Bermuda Triangle of CA honestly I’m so confused

Like the lying, sure that checks out lol but a developer interview where they confirm a ship as canon?

That took place at WcDonalds?! which… doesn’t exist?

I think the internet was a mistake

It was not a developer interview, but the rest is accurate about the wacdonalds interview. I will find it. I always do.

Edit: Found it. Original no longer exists, but this is a full transcript. I have screenshots as evidence as well.

The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

I'll give you a hint: it's the one with a penis. Ahh, the blonde one then. :):D = LOVE. You need to tell people these things before they make any unfounded assumptions Teef, Yeesh. I know, I know. Even I make mistakes, surprisingly. :awesome:

thelifestream.net

When the Ultis said that Cloud and Tifa expressed their mutual feelings to each other, they did not clarify that they were Mutual Feelings of Friendship

That is also an actual argument that was made. Repeatedly.

I vaguely remember WcDonald's from the ACF days, but yes it was some CA claim. I can't remember if it was a fake dev interview or just something about how their Japanese friend at WcDonald's told them that everyone in Japan believed CA was canon. Also lots of discussion about how carp/koi fish symbolized romantic love in Japanese culture or something, lmfao. So there being a big ass fish in the lake in the Forgotten Capital = CA are soulmates. y'all are so lucky to have missed it. If you think the takes are wild now, you should have seen what we were working with back then!

Shit was wild. Meeting in the flower fields for spirit sex!

So I was reading some old posts in other threads and I saw some people bring up Final Fantasy Tactics and Dissidia as proof that Cloud loves Aerith. But these are AUs essentially.

But if they count, one must wonder why Kingdom Hearts 2 isn’t mentioned?

What about Dissidia 012 where Cloud and Tifa spend most of their screen time worrying about each other. And of course, that classic standby Ehrgeiz.

But yeah, Dissidia and Tactics are also bad arguments for C/A because there's nothing pro C/A there, apart from him meeting a flower girl that looks like Aerith in Ivalice and then.... not caring about her and never mentioning her again.

in my head, i can just see a lifestream kiss once Cloud says we finally...meet...again. Thematically, it would be incredible and i think it could make sense depending on how intense Mideel is while Tifa is looking after him. Then Highwind could work with kissing while leaning over each other. Then waking up in undergarments since Costa Del Sol did not leave much up to the imagination for both characters XD. I guess we will see though but all i can say is Higwind Yuffie reaction might be the best part if they go that route XD

I could see an attempted kiss from spectral Cloud as we fade out, with a real kiss only coming later.

 

[loxu]

So this is supposed to be the ultimate end all arguments proofs that Cloud and Aerith is canon :

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771030628626288823

 

[hytekz]

So this is supposed to be the ultimate end all arguments proofs that Cloud and Aerith is canon :

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771030628626288823

So basically no actual material from the games?

 

[GamerSkull]

So basically no actual material from the games?

Well, one clip of the Cloti kiss should be enough of a rebuttal. inb4 “it’s optional”

 

[Eerie]

So this is supposed to be the ultimate end all arguments proofs that Cloud and Aerith is canon :

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771030628626288823

Oh no what do I do... well I'm gonna have to continue to play the games since CT only happens there.

 

[shady]

It was a Japanese Cloti sending Nojima death threats after The Game Awards trailer so… yeah there’s a Cloti fan base in Japan

Not to jump on this but wasn't that Jairus the insane Jessie fan threatening with Yakuza? Unless there was a different person who happened to be a Cloti that was also threatening stuff. Either way, absolutely no need for it.

 

[GamerSkull]

A lot of the problem is that they are so fixated on their desired conclusion they take it as their predicate. That twists absolutely everything else.

The metaphorical equivalent of putting their fingers in their ears and screaming “LALALA”

 

[Eerie]

Not to jump on this but wasn't that Jairus the insane Jessie fan threatening with Yakuza? Unless there was a different person who happened to be a Cloti that was also threatening stuff. Either way, absolutely no need for it.

Didn't that happen after though? I feel like it happened fairly recently in January or February even. And yeah we know Jairus. He has posted here pre-REMAKE for years until he wore us out.

In all honestly, I consider anyone sending death threats beyond "extreme", those people can only be deranged. As in there's something wrong and they need a LOT of therapy. And also to be put in front of a judge because that has consequences for those who receive those threats.

 

[GamerSkull]

Didn't that happen after though? I feel like it happened fairly recently in January or February even. And yeah we know Jairus. He has posted here pre-REMAKE for years until he wore us out.

In all honestly, I consider anyone sending death threats beyond "extreme", those people can only be deranged. As in there's something wrong and they need a LOT of therapy. And also to be put in front of a judge because that has consequences for those who receive those threats.

I was unaware of this debacle. What prompted this threat to happen?

I don’t want to assume it’s about Jessie’s death since that’s been set in stone since 1997.

 

[Stiggie]

I'm thinking that resolving the Cloud being deluded about Aerith being alive thing is going to come after the Lifestream sequence. Once he accepts the emotional truth of why he remembers the Nibelheim Incident the way he did, why he was hiding under that grunt mask, it seems he's able break through the influence of the Jenova cells. After they leave the Lifestream, he remembers/recounts what Hojo did to him on his own when he's explaining everything to the party on the Highwind, and he's able to remember Zack on his own in the Shinra Mansion basement. These moments aren't in the Lifestream sequence itself because they don't really have anything to do with Tifa.

My gut feeling is the opposite actually. One of my main issues when trying to predict how the remake project would be divided up was thinking about how the story is very front loaded when it comes to plot content. Stuff like fighting the weapons all feels like a lot of "doing stuff" but not really moving the plot forward.
I think that one of the motivations for the weird Aerith timeline nonsense was to add in some more content for part 3.
But I'm guessing Cloud breaking and being repaired will be left for more towards the end of the game. If we take rebirths 14 chapter structure I wouldn't be surprised if Cloud snaps in chapter 9, chapter 10 is Midgar escape, chapter 11 some weapon stuff plus lifestream. Chapter 12 weapon stuff, Chapter 13 Midgar conclusion, chapter 14 Northern cave.
My guess is that there will be a quite lengthy part prior to all that which deals with Cloud seeing Aerith, and it won't be resolved, it will be part of what finally breaks him.
I'm guessing that after the lifestream he will not see Aerith again, unless it is as a goodbye.

My biggest fear, the thing that I could most see them do that in my opinion would absolutely ruin the game and story, would be if they actually somehow kept an affection system going in part 3, that that's why they kept Aerith around, so they can play that bullshit for a third time. That is the shit that would kill the game for me before it's even out.
What would be funny though, if there were an affection system to get "the good ending" for Tifa and/or Aerith, but the good ending with Aerith is her getting a romantic ending with Zack XD

 

[Eerie]

I was unaware of this debacle. What prompted this threat to happen?

I don’t want to assume it’s about Jessie’s death since that’s been set in stone since 1997.

I think it was after they specified Jessie was only a holographic image but not quite sure. He said he had hired yakuza (haha right as if) to kill Nojima. I think at least one of his Twitter accounts was suspended, and IMHO the dude is gonna have trouble because that wasn't taken too well by Nojima.

But I'm guessing Cloud breaking and being repaired will be left for more towards the end of the game. If we take rebirths 14 chapter structure I wouldn't be surprised if Cloud snaps in chapter 9, chapter 10 is Midgar escape, chapter 11 some weapon stuff plus lifestream. Chapter 12 weapon stuff, Chapter 13 Midgar conclusion, chapter 14 Northern cave.

That would be terrible actually, players would never know the real Cloud. Big yikes. Also feeling like the party wouldn't get to know him either. That would sucks a lot. A big part of what's coming is what does the part do when Cloud's lost, so I feel that putting it towards the end is non-sense. We would miss A LOT.

 

[GamerSkull]

My gut feeling is the opposite actually. One of my main issues when trying to predict how the remake project would be divided up was thinking about how the story is very front loaded when it comes to plot content. Stuff like fighting the weapons all feels like a lot of "doing stuff" but not really moving the plot forward.
I think that one of the motivations for the weird Aerith timeline nonsense was to add in some more content for part 3.
But I'm guessing Cloud breaking and being repaired will be left for more towards the end of the game. If we take rebirths 14 chapter structure I wouldn't be surprised if Cloud snaps in chapter 9, chapter 10 is Midgar escape, chapter 11 some weapon stuff plus lifestream. Chapter 12 weapon stuff, Chapter 13 Midgar conclusion, chapter 14 Northern cave.
My guess is that there will be a quite lengthy part prior to all that which deals with Cloud seeing Aerith, and it won't be resolved, it will be part of what finally breaks him.
I'm guessing that after the lifestream he will not see Aerith again, unless it is as a goodbye.

My biggest fear, the thing that I could most see them do that in my opinion would absolutely ruin the game and story, would be if they actually somehow kept an affection system going in part 3, that that's why they kept Aerith around, so they can play that bullshit for a third time. That is the shit that would kill the game for me before it's even out.
What would be funny though, if there were an affection system to get "the good ending" for Tifa and/or Aerith, but the good ending with Aerith is her getting a romantic ending with Zack XD

I think there may be an affection system but it will be separate from the Highwind scene or just affect the dialogue. Like maybe you can help Cid do repairs or help Barret practice his anccuracy. I also don’t think Aerith will be included because they’re probably gonna go for some sort of Zerith payoff.

And I think Aerith’s role in Part 3 will pretty much be similar to Zack’s role in Part 2. Probably both forming a party of two during Interlude segments.

Also, I think Cloud’s breakdown will happen early in the game since the Northern Cave should be the second area in Part 3. Then we’ll get Tifa and Cid as party leaders for a good portion before returning to Cloud.

 

[billy22]

Well, one clip of the Cloti kiss should be enough of a rebuttal. inb4 “it’s optional”

Just ask them why there is no option to kiss Aerith, or at least make Cloud confess his love for her.

It's kind of funny, there was always the excuse before that she died before he realized these things, and that was supposed to be the reason he never did that with her.

And yet now, here we have Aerith's ghost walking around, with Cloud still talking to her. Here's your chance Cloud...tell her you love her. Kiss that pretty face she's got. Doesn't matter if it's just an optional scene, just do it one time, that's all I need just once...oh, doesn't look like he wants to.

(Notwithstanding that with both girls alive and he still does it with Tifa but not her)

I could see an attempted kiss from spectral Cloud as we fade out, with a real kiss only coming later.

No no, guys we're looking at this all wrong. What we need is not Cloud to kiss Tifa, what we really need is for Aerith to kiss Zack.

Imagine. Just imagine. The HA highwind scene is still optional, sure, but we see a full-on make out session between Cloud/Tifa. We get to the final cutscene, there's Aerith with Zack in the alt-timeline thingy...kissing each other as the credits roll.

It will be a new string of cope, one for the ages. For years there has been a subsection of the fandom, who while accepting that Cloud got with Tifa, assures us that Tifa was just 'second choice because Aerith died,' or 'Cloud is just using her for sex.' But now Aerith in love with someone else? Oh no. See, turns out that she too is just using Zack, as a replacement for...the Cloud that exists in her timeline.

 

[Ryeleigh]

That would be terrible actually, players would never know the real Cloud. Big yikes. Also feeling like the party wouldn't get to know him either. That would sucks a lot. A big part of what's coming is what does the part do when Cloud's lost, so I feel that putting it towards the end is non-sense. We would miss A LOT.

I agree. I would like if everyone got to spend more time with real Cloud than less. It would also be funny to see fully real Cloud interacting with Tifa because he's already like her biggest simp, lol. The boy would thirst even worse than he already does, lol.

Also Zack date please.

 

[Raindrop]

Hey everyone!
Been lurking here for the past week or so after trying to find a place to discuss Rebirth that's not Twitter because omg there are some truly head-scratching and downright nasty takes on there. So, it's been super refreshing to see that there's really fruitful and substantive conversations about the story of this game here and I felt compelled to make an account and chime in myself now!

To fully disclose my bias, I caught the Cloti bug ever since I played the OG 10 years ago and it has lasted through Remake and now Rebirth. But, I didn't want to project my desire to see Cloud and Tifa together and be as objective as I could while playing through Rebirth the first time and see what Nojima was cooking. Although excerpts from the Ultimanias and what we know from OG basically already confirm their romance, I wanted to see how their relationship blossoms and builds from Remake and see what is actually written in the text of the game and not let anything sway my perspective. And there's one part of the game that just undeniably shows why Cloud and Tifa were written to be together and that's Chapter 9 in Gongaga.

Spoiler: Spoiler thoughts!

After Cloud almost kills Tifa at the reactor, it's important to look at how he reacts once he gains his mind back from Sephiroth. He screams her name and goes catatonic. In very much the same way that he reacts to Zack's death in OG and CC, he loses the person he depends on for his strength because he was too weak to protect them, and thus loses his will to go on. We see later after Tifa's Lifestream sequence that he has already accepted that he did kill her and needed a good slap in the face by Barrett to come back to his senses once the Weapon returns Tifa to them. It's as if he feels like he doesn't deserve to know that Tifa was actually alive. But there's so much hurt and desperation in Cloud that he needs to go check on Tifa's body. Even Barrett says that Tifa needs HIM. Then the game fast forwards a bit in time to Cissnei's house where we see Yuffie, Red, Cait Sith, and Barret mulling over what happened in the living room while Aerith waits near the door, curious about how Tifa is doing while Cloud watches over her.

But what I always come back to and what I don't see people talk about enough is this: how did we even get here? Why did the party decide to leave Tifa alone in a room with the person who literally almost killed her with no apparent argument or discussion? Regardless if Cloud made the decision to be alone with her or not, I argue the game placed them in these exact positions for a reason. I think the whole party knows Cloud is hurting inside and wants to make up for what he did. They trust that Tifa has the patience and forgiveness of a saint and that Cloud and Tifa will hash it out together. But, most importantly...

They are all aware of the depth of Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other. They know that they need their time alone.

And I wanna focus on Aerith at this point too because I disagree with the all the homewrecker accusations that have been thrown at her character on Twitter.

Firstly, Aerith and Tifa are really close FRIENDS, and I feel like people don't want to acknowledge that for some reason. Back on the Shinra-8, they literally were about talk about the boys they loved, or more accurately their "first loves" according to the French translation, before being interrupted by the crew. They're seen multiple times together doing their own thing outside of the rest of the party and have a whole section of the game dedicated to them (and Red) at Costa del Sol. And yet, even Aerith knows and agrees to defer to Cloud when it comes to Tifa at Gongaga.

Second, Aerith is a smart woman. She sees how Tifa instinctively goes to care for Cloud and how physically intimate and comfortable Cloud and Tifa are together. And, I don't think that Cloud and Tifa are quiet enough during the Gongaga scene that only Yuffie and Cait can hear them. I'm pretty sure Aerith can hear the whole conversation going on, and she knows exactly what's happening. To hear Tifa make a super intimate promise to Cloud that it's Tifa's turn to save him and remembering her talk with Tifa about their "first loves", I think she can put two and two together. And when Yuffie is cheering for the two lovebirds to kiss, Aerith doesn't even step in to stop anything. In fact, I think she's secretly rooting for them too. She can hear how tender and loving they are to each other because it's undeniable at that point. And when Tifa opens the door and looks at Aerith, you would expect some unease or awkwardness from her if you were to believe some CAs, but no that's not what happens! I think it's the French translation that subtitles the inaudible words to Tifa as "Everything will be alright." which is not what you expect if you believe Cloud and Aerith should be together.

So to put it all together, we basically have the worst kept secret between everyone in the party that Cloud and Tifa intimately rely on and are smitten for each other. Yuffie and Cait Sith make this very obvious in Gongaga, but I think even Aerith shows that she's acutely aware of the fact that Tifa is really the one that knows how to get to the real Cloud. And remember, this is a NON-OPTIONAL, CANON scene that makes it very clear that Cloud and Tifa love each other and that everyone knows it. This isn't even getting to the Under Junon scene, another non-optional scene where there is clear romantic tension, or the kiss on the Skywheel where the devs make it clear how Cloud would act if Tifa is his date at the Gold Saucer. And I didn't even really get into what Cloud and Tifa said to each other in Gongaga and it's already so obvious.

 

[Sacky]

Hey everyone!
Been lurking here for the past week or so after trying to find a place to discuss Rebirth that's not Twitter because omg there are some truly head-scratching and downright nasty takes on there. So, it's been super refreshing to see that there's really fruitful and substantive conversations about the story of this game here and I felt compelled to make an account and chime in myself now!

To fully disclose my bias, I caught the Cloti bug ever since I played the OG 10 years ago and it has lasted through Remake and now Rebirth. But, I didn't want to project my desire to see Cloud and Tifa together and be as objective as I could while playing through Rebirth the first time and see what Nojima was cooking. Although excerpts from the Ultimanias and what we know from OG basically already confirm their romance, I wanted to see how their relationship blossoms and builds from Remake and see what is actually written in the text of the game and not let anything sway my perspective. And there's one part of the game that just undeniably shows why Cloud and Tifa were written to be together and that's Chapter 9 in Gongaga.

Spoiler: Spoiler thoughts!

After Cloud almost kills Tifa at the reactor, it's important to look at how he reacts once he gains his mind back from Sephiroth. He screams her name and goes catatonic. In very much the same way that he reacts to Zack's death in OG and CC, he loses the person he depends on for his strength because he was too weak to protect them, and thus loses his will to go on. We see later after Tifa's Lifestream sequence that he has already accepted that he did kill her and needed a good slap in the face by Barrett to come back to his senses once the Weapon returns Tifa to them. It's as if he feels like he doesn't deserve to know that Tifa was actually alive. But there's so much hurt and desperation in Cloud that he needs to go check on Tifa's body. Even Barrett says that Tifa needs HIM. Then the game fast forwards a bit in time to Cissnei's house where we see Yuffie, Red, Cait Sith, and Barret mulling over what happened in the living room while Aerith waits near the door, curious about how Tifa is doing while Cloud watches over her.

But what I always come back to and what I don't see people talk about enough is this: how did we even get here? Why did the party decide to leave Tifa alone in a room with the person who literally almost killed her with no apparent argument or discussion? Regardless if Cloud made the decision to be alone with her or not, I argue the game placed them in these exact positions for a reason. I think the whole party knows Cloud is hurting inside and wants to make up for what he did. They trust that Tifa has the patience and forgiveness of a saint and that Cloud and Tifa will hash it out together. But, most importantly...

They are all aware of the depth of Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other. They know that they need their time alone.

And I wanna focus on Aerith at this point too because I disagree with the all the homewrecker accusations that have been thrown at her character on Twitter.

Firstly, Aerith and Tifa are really close FRIENDS, and I feel like people don't want to acknowledge that for some reason. Back on the Shinra-8, they literally were about talk about the boys they loved, or more accurately their "first loves" according to the French translation, before being interrupted by the crew. They're seen multiple times together doing their own thing outside of the rest of the party and have a whole section of the game dedicated to them (and Red) at Costa del Sol. And yet, even Aerith knows and agrees to defer to Cloud when it comes to Tifa at Gongaga.

Second, Aerith is a smart woman. She sees how Tifa instinctively goes to care for Cloud and how physically intimate and comfortable Cloud and Tifa are together. And, I don't think that Cloud and Tifa are quiet enough during the Gongaga scene that only Yuffie and Cait can hear them. I'm pretty sure Aerith can hear the whole conversation going on, and she knows exactly what's happening. To hear Tifa make a super intimate promise to Cloud that it's Tifa's turn to save him and remembering her talk with Tifa about their "first loves", I think she can put two and two together. And when Yuffie is cheering for the two lovebirds to kiss, Aerith doesn't even step in to stop anything. In fact, I think she's secretly rooting for them too. She can hear how tender and loving they are to each other because it's undeniable at that point. And when Tifa opens the door and looks at Aerith, you would expect some unease or awkwardness from her if you were to believe some CAs, but no that's not what happens! I think it's the French translation that subtitles the inaudible words to Tifa as "Everything will be alright." which is not what you expect if you believe Cloud and Aerith should be together.

So to put it all together, we basically have the worst kept secret between everyone in the party that Cloud and Tifa intimately rely on and are smitten for each other. Yuffie and Cait Sith make this very obvious in Gongaga, but I think even Aerith shows that she's acutely aware of the fact that Tifa is really the one that knows how to get to the real Cloud. And remember, this is a NON-OPTIONAL, CANON scene that makes it very clear that Cloud and Tifa love each other and that everyone knows it. This isn't even getting to the Under Junon scene, another non-optional scene where there is clear romantic tension, or the kiss on the Skywheel where the devs make it clear how Cloud would act if Tifa is his date at the Gold Saucer. And I didn't even really get into what Cloud and Tifa said to each other in Gongaga and it's already so obvious.

Welcome!

 

[GamerSkull]

Hahahaha

Just saw someone tweet Tifa saying “Cloud and I just grew up together. Nothing more” in Corneo’s basement as proof.

Holy hell.

These people have never actually understood the story. I have to question how they perceived everything in the game after Aerith’s death.

 

[GamerSkull]

Hey everyone!
Been lurking here for the past week or so after trying to find a place to discuss Rebirth that's not Twitter because omg there are some truly head-scratching and downright nasty takes on there. So, it's been super refreshing to see that there's really fruitful and substantive conversations about the story of this game here and I felt compelled to make an account and chime in myself now!

To fully disclose my bias, I caught the Cloti bug ever since I played the OG 10 years ago and it has lasted through Remake and now Rebirth. But, I didn't want to project my desire to see Cloud and Tifa together and be as objective as I could while playing through Rebirth the first time and see what Nojima was cooking. Although excerpts from the Ultimanias and what we know from OG basically already confirm their romance, I wanted to see how their relationship blossoms and builds from Remake and see what is actually written in the text of the game and not let anything sway my perspective. And there's one part of the game that just undeniably shows why Cloud and Tifa were written to be together and that's Chapter 9 in Gongaga.

Spoiler: Spoiler thoughts!

After Cloud almost kills Tifa at the reactor, it's important to look at how he reacts once he gains his mind back from Sephiroth. He screams her name and goes catatonic. In very much the same way that he reacts to Zack's death in OG and CC, he loses the person he depends on for his strength because he was too weak to protect them, and thus loses his will to go on. We see later after Tifa's Lifestream sequence that he has already accepted that he did kill her and needed a good slap in the face by Barrett to come back to his senses once the Weapon returns Tifa to them. It's as if he feels like he doesn't deserve to know that Tifa was actually alive. But there's so much hurt and desperation in Cloud that he needs to go check on Tifa's body. Even Barrett says that Tifa needs HIM. Then the game fast forwards a bit in time to Cissnei's house where we see Yuffie, Red, Cait Sith, and Barret mulling over what happened in the living room while Aerith waits near the door, curious about how Tifa is doing while Cloud watches over her.

But what I always come back to and what I don't see people talk about enough is this: how did we even get here? Why did the party decide to leave Tifa alone in a room with the person who literally almost killed her with no apparent argument or discussion? Regardless if Cloud made the decision to be alone with her or not, I argue the game placed them in these exact positions for a reason. I think the whole party knows Cloud is hurting inside and wants to make up for what he did. They trust that Tifa has the patience and forgiveness of a saint and that Cloud and Tifa will hash it out together. But, most importantly...

They are all aware of the depth of Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other. They know that they need their time alone.

And I wanna focus on Aerith at this point too because I disagree with the all the homewrecker accusations that have been thrown at her character on Twitter.

Firstly, Aerith and Tifa are really close FRIENDS, and I feel like people don't want to acknowledge that for some reason. Back on the Shinra-8, they literally were about talk about the boys they loved, or more accurately their "first loves" according to the French translation, before being interrupted by the crew. They're seen multiple times together doing their own thing outside of the rest of the party and have a whole section of the game dedicated to them (and Red) at Costa del Sol. And yet, even Aerith knows and agrees to defer to Cloud when it comes to Tifa at Gongaga.

Second, Aerith is a smart woman. She sees how Tifa instinctively goes to care for Cloud and how physically intimate and comfortable Cloud and Tifa are together. And, I don't think that Cloud and Tifa are quiet enough during the Gongaga scene that only Yuffie and Cait can hear them. I'm pretty sure Aerith can hear the whole conversation going on, and she knows exactly what's happening. To hear Tifa make a super intimate promise to Cloud that it's Tifa's turn to save him and remembering her talk with Tifa about their "first loves", I think she can put two and two together. And when Yuffie is cheering for the two lovebirds to kiss, Aerith doesn't even step in to stop anything. In fact, I think she's secretly rooting for them too. She can hear how tender and loving they are to each other because it's undeniable at that point. And when Tifa opens the door and looks at Aerith, you would expect some unease or awkwardness from her if you were to believe some CAs, but no that's not what happens! I think it's the French translation that subtitles the inaudible words to Tifa as "Everything will be alright." which is not what you expect if you believe Cloud and Aerith should be together.

So to put it all together, we basically have the worst kept secret between everyone in the party that Cloud and Tifa intimately rely on and are smitten for each other. Yuffie and Cait Sith make this very obvious in Gongaga, but I think even Aerith shows that she's acutely aware of the fact that Tifa is really the one that knows how to get to the real Cloud. And remember, this is a NON-OPTIONAL, CANON scene that makes it very clear that Cloud and Tifa love each other and that everyone knows it. This isn't even getting to the Under Junon scene, another non-optional scene where there is clear romantic tension, or the kiss on the Skywheel where the devs make it clear how Cloud would act if Tifa is his date at the Gold Saucer. And I didn't even really get into what Cloud and Tifa said to each other in Gongaga and it's already so obvious.

Welcome!

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Not to jump on this but wasn't that Jairus the insane Jessie fan threatening with Yakuza? Unless there was a different person who happened to be a Cloti that was also threatening stuff. Either way, absolutely no need for it.

This was after the Game Awards trailer, the one that heavily baited Clerith, with the almost kiss moment from their date, and the No Promises to Keep song debut.

A lot of very extreme Cloti’s didn’t respond well not only to all of the above, but to the fact that at this point Tifa had barely been in any of the marketing (according to them, completely forgetting a lot of the marketing prior to TGA trailer played up Sephiroth trying to drive a wedge between Cloud and Tifa, and the simple fact that they chose to keep a lot of Tifa’s stuff under wraps for the game itself)

Anyway, these extreme Cloti’s expressed their anger at Nojima, and one Japanese Cloti (NOT Jairus) threatened to kill Nojima, and a lot of the well known Aerith hating extreme Cloti’s liked those tweets with the threats against Nojima.

This instance had nothing to do with Jairus.

This was what also led to the response of “Thank You Developers of FFVII” viral thing on Twitter where people tweeted the hashtag thanking the developers of FFVII, to try and wash away the negativity and toxicity that arose from TGA trailer.

 

[insanehobbit]

Shit was wild. Meeting in the flower fields for spirit sex!

omg, not that! And that old thread you dug up reminded me of the koi_bito vs. koibito wars LMAO. This is what happens when there were like only one or two actual native speakers on the forums, and everyone else was putting shit through Babelfish and praying. How we've all managed to become seemingly functioning adults after all of that amazes me.

My gut feeling is the opposite actually. One of my main issues when trying to predict how the remake project would be divided up was thinking about how the story is very front loaded when it comes to plot content. Stuff like fighting the weapons all feels like a lot of "doing stuff" but not really moving the plot forward.
I think that one of the motivations for the weird Aerith timeline nonsense was to add in some more content for part 3.
But I'm guessing Cloud breaking and being repaired will be left for more towards the end of the game. If we take rebirths 14 chapter structure I wouldn't be surprised if Cloud snaps in chapter 9, chapter 10 is Midgar escape, chapter 11 some weapon stuff plus lifestream. Chapter 12 weapon stuff, Chapter 13 Midgar conclusion, chapter 14 Northern cave.
My guess is that there will be a quite lengthy part prior to all that which deals with Cloud seeing Aerith, and it won't be resolved, it will be part of what finally breaks him.
I'm guessing that after the lifestream he will not see Aerith again, unless it is as a goodbye.

My biggest fear, the thing that I could most see them do that in my opinion would absolutely ruin the game and story, would be if they actually somehow kept an affection system going in part 3, that that's why they kept Aerith around, so they can play that bullshit for a third time. That is the shit that would kill the game for me before it's even out.
What would be funny though, if there were an affection system to get "the good ending" for Tifa and/or Aerith, but the good ending with Aerith is her getting a romantic ending with Zack XD

I am the furthest thing from an optimist, but I can't say I share any of these fears.

I think if anything, the story is backloaded. I think it was a terrible mistake and probably the biggest mistake of Rebirth for it to end at the Forgotten Capital rather than the Northern Crater, because we still have two disks of the OG left!! There's so much to cover in part 3.

Northern Crater/Cloud's collapse is gonna be the End of Act One moment, so you'll have about 3-4 chapters of content building up to that, which would cover Rocket Town/Icicle Inn/Glacier/Whirlwind Maze like in the OG.

Act Two begins with the team in prison/breaking out and then we'll have Tifa as the party leader/dealing with Weapons/Huge Materia etc, through the midpoint of the game, when they find Cloud in Mideel and Tifa temporarily leaves the party to stay by his side. The End of Act Two is when the Weapon attacks Mideel and the two of them fall into the Lifestream.

Act Three begins with the Lifestream sequence and the emotional climax is Tifa helping Cloud find himself again there. Once Real!Cloud returns, we're gonna have a bunch of chapters of falling action, where the remaining subplots are resolved: the rest of the Huge Materia quests, the Wutai/Shinra war coming to a head, summoning Holy, return to Midgar, the night before the final battle, etc. This is where Cloud is going to resolve his feelings/delusions about Zack/Aerith, when they revisit Nibelheim and the Forgotten Capital, imo. Then, of course, the final battle with Sephiroth, and the denouement.

I don't think Cloud seeing Aerith at the end of Rebirth is such a big divergence from the OG to require such a radical change in structure? It is (like most changes in Remake/Rebirth) something that could have happened in the OG that they just didn't have the technology to show. The ending implies that he thinks Aerith is just back at the altar praying for Holy or whatever anyways, and he won't be seeing her around everywhere on the way to the Northern Crater. If anything, I think this delusion just serves to justify how Tifa ends up losing faith in him at the Northern Crater, since there's so much emphasis on Tifa's reaction to this in the ending.

There probably will be some sort of affection mechanism in the third game, but I don't think that has anything to do with shipping, lmao. Like it's just a very normal way to add some replay value to the game?

My baseline assumption for any prediction about part three is that they're going to try to make a "good" game. Even if they end up missing the mark, it wouldn't be like this. Like guys, it'll be fine, lol.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Raindrop: Welcome an' shit

@The Jairus questions: If I remember, the death threat thing was specifically motivated by the GS date giving her holy highness Jessiechrist's role of Princess Rosa to someone else But honestly, what didn't set him off? I'm remembering multiple rants about Sephiroth getting into Smash over Jessie, which was ... a thing. That happened.

@Ryu: I'm now picturing Cloud in Vegeta's armor explaining that Tifa is his motivation to grow stronger. It's sorta fucked... but then shipping Vegeta with Goku Kakarotto isn't uncommon is it

 

[Eerie]

Hey everyone!
Been lurking here for the past week or so after trying to find a place to discuss Rebirth that's not Twitter because omg there are some truly head-scratching and downright nasty takes on there. So, it's been super refreshing to see that there's really fruitful and substantive conversations about the story of this game here and I felt compelled to make an account and chime in myself now!

To fully disclose my bias, I caught the Cloti bug ever since I played the OG 10 years ago and it has lasted through Remake and now Rebirth. But, I didn't want to project my desire to see Cloud and Tifa together and be as objective as I could while playing through Rebirth the first time and see what Nojima was cooking. Although excerpts from the Ultimanias and what we know from OG basically already confirm their romance, I wanted to see how their relationship blossoms and builds from Remake and see what is actually written in the text of the game and not let anything sway my perspective. And there's one part of the game that just undeniably shows why Cloud and Tifa were written to be together and that's Chapter 9 in Gongaga.

Spoiler: Spoiler thoughts!

After Cloud almost kills Tifa at the reactor, it's important to look at how he reacts once he gains his mind back from Sephiroth. He screams her name and goes catatonic. In very much the same way that he reacts to Zack's death in OG and CC, he loses the person he depends on for his strength because he was too weak to protect them, and thus loses his will to go on. We see later after Tifa's Lifestream sequence that he has already accepted that he did kill her and needed a good slap in the face by Barrett to come back to his senses once the Weapon returns Tifa to them. It's as if he feels like he doesn't deserve to know that Tifa was actually alive. But there's so much hurt and desperation in Cloud that he needs to go check on Tifa's body. Even Barrett says that Tifa needs HIM. Then the game fast forwards a bit in time to Cissnei's house where we see Yuffie, Red, Cait Sith, and Barret mulling over what happened in the living room while Aerith waits near the door, curious about how Tifa is doing while Cloud watches over her.

But what I always come back to and what I don't see people talk about enough is this: how did we even get here? Why did the party decide to leave Tifa alone in a room with the person who literally almost killed her with no apparent argument or discussion? Regardless if Cloud made the decision to be alone with her or not, I argue the game placed them in these exact positions for a reason. I think the whole party knows Cloud is hurting inside and wants to make up for what he did. They trust that Tifa has the patience and forgiveness of a saint and that Cloud and Tifa will hash it out together. But, most importantly...

They are all aware of the depth of Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other. They know that they need their time alone.

And I wanna focus on Aerith at this point too because I disagree with the all the homewrecker accusations that have been thrown at her character on Twitter.

Firstly, Aerith and Tifa are really close FRIENDS, and I feel like people don't want to acknowledge that for some reason. Back on the Shinra-8, they literally were about talk about the boys they loved, or more accurately their "first loves" according to the French translation, before being interrupted by the crew. They're seen multiple times together doing their own thing outside of the rest of the party and have a whole section of the game dedicated to them (and Red) at Costa del Sol. And yet, even Aerith knows and agrees to defer to Cloud when it comes to Tifa at Gongaga.

Second, Aerith is a smart woman. She sees how Tifa instinctively goes to care for Cloud and how physically intimate and comfortable Cloud and Tifa are together. And, I don't think that Cloud and Tifa are quiet enough during the Gongaga scene that only Yuffie and Cait can hear them. I'm pretty sure Aerith can hear the whole conversation going on, and she knows exactly what's happening. To hear Tifa make a super intimate promise to Cloud that it's Tifa's turn to save him and remembering her talk with Tifa about their "first loves", I think she can put two and two together. And when Yuffie is cheering for the two lovebirds to kiss, Aerith doesn't even step in to stop anything. In fact, I think she's secretly rooting for them too. She can hear how tender and loving they are to each other because it's undeniable at that point. And when Tifa opens the door and looks at Aerith, you would expect some unease or awkwardness from her if you were to believe some CAs, but no that's not what happens! I think it's the French translation that subtitles the inaudible words to Tifa as "Everything will be alright." which is not what you expect if you believe Cloud and Aerith should be together.

So to put it all together, we basically have the worst kept secret between everyone in the party that Cloud and Tifa intimately rely on and are smitten for each other. Yuffie and Cait Sith make this very obvious in Gongaga, but I think even Aerith shows that she's acutely aware of the fact that Tifa is really the one that knows how to get to the real Cloud. And remember, this is a NON-OPTIONAL, CANON scene that makes it very clear that Cloud and Tifa love each other and that everyone knows it. This isn't even getting to the Under Junon scene, another non-optional scene where there is clear romantic tension, or the kiss on the Skywheel where the devs make it clear how Cloud would act if Tifa is his date at the Gold Saucer. And I didn't even really get into what Cloud and Tifa said to each other in Gongaga and it's already so obvious.

Hello and welcome!

Just to say, to be fair I am not sure that anyone but Cloud and Tifa heard what was said there. However, it is clear that the party already perceived by then that Cloud and Tifa are a thing - in KALM in ch2 everyone worries about them fighting, Barret, Red XIII, Aerith! In chapter 2! So I don't think they'd need to hear such an intimate conversation.

 

[Stiggie]

That would be terrible actually, players would never know the real Cloud. Big yikes. Also feeling like the party wouldn't get to know him either. That would sucks a lot. A big part of what's coming is what does the part do when Cloud's lost, so I feel that putting it towards the end is non-sense. We would miss A LOT.

I agree. I would like if everyone got to spend more time with real Cloud than less. It would also be funny to see fully real Cloud interacting with Tifa because he's already like her biggest simp, lol. The boy would thirst even worse than he already does, lol.

Not saying I support it, just saying that's my gut feeling. Remember, we barely got any time with normal Cloud in the OG as well. Ultimately FFVII follows the heroes journey archetype pretty closely and the "heroes rebirth" there is usually placed almost directly in front of the final confrontation. The hero must fail their first encounter with the big bad, which happens during the first north cave confrontation.
They must then undergo metamorphosis, they must undergo some internal growth that results in some insight or strength that will allow them to go back and face the trial again, but now succeed. That happens in the lifestream. From a storytelling perspective this should be what gives the hero the final strength needed to go and fight the big bad. If there is a lot happening between that and the final confrontation that usually isn't the greatest story structure, it would create the risk of the story starting to drag.

So if the lifestream is very early, then you might be forced to use something else to fill that role in the story, which would then almost have to be related to Aeriths death arc. And honestly, that I would like even less. The lifestream is one of the most prototypical versions of the transformation/atonement part of the heroes journey. It needs to be the culminating event that gives Cloud the final truth he needs to face Sephiroth, since it it what started this journey, and the guiding plotarc for his character growth. Hell, the fact that his resolution with Tifa IS "the metamorphosis" is from a story telling perspective probably the strongest evidence for why Tifa is the main love interest, because the relationship between her and Cloud forms what can easily be described as the most important part of the heroes journey, the final tribulation that grants the hero the inner strength he needs to achieve victory. If you take that away and instead give that role to some resolution concerning the death of Aerith then that could massively undermine Tifa.

Hahahaha

Just saw someone tweet Tifa saying “Cloud and I just grew up together. Nothing more” in Corneo’s basement as proof.

Holy hell.

These people have never actually understood the story. I have to question how they perceived everything in the game after Aerith’s death.

This is the problem with arguing against the Cleric worldview. It is excessively shallow. Usually you use Occams razor in these kinds of arguments, and it SHOULD work here since taking everything at face value is often NOT the simplest answer. But try explaining that to Cleriths. To intelligent people you don't have to explain this, they get it, they innately understand that just going by the letter is not simple but stupid, and that simplicity often requires not accepting that everything is literally true. But to stupid people, which are the people you're trying to convince, this immediately sounds like cope, you are immediately at a disadvantage. What's more you're trying to use a complex argument for why it's actually very simple to just go "she's being overly dismissive because that's what people do, ESPECIALLY if there is something more going on".

These are the sorts of things that you need to understand nuance for, that you need to be able to see context for. And people who are able to do that, are generally already NOT Cleriths, and if they are, these are not the arguments they're making.

I think if anything, the story is backloaded. I think it was a terrible mistake and probably the biggest mistake of Rebirth for it to end at the Forgotten Capital rather than the Northern Crater, because we still have two disks of the OG left!! There's so much to cover in part 3

I think the story in REMAKE is backloaded, yeah, but I think the reason so much was kept on the board is essentially so we can push back a lot of these events. Even in your timeline the LS is still pretty late, essentially the same thing I am saying, you have the Lifestream, and then have the different stories resolve. But I don't know if I think coming to Terms with Aeriths death really fits in there, I think it would have to be resolved already with the LS scene, with any sub-sequent scene merely being a send off in that regard. Cloud should not require healing post healing.
The lifestream starting act 3 is right, but that's only possible because they left a lot to do in game three, and act 3 out of 3....well, that's nearing the final parts of the story.

 

[Raindrop]

Hello and welcome!

Just to say, to be fair I am not sure that anyone but Cloud and Tifa heard what was said there. However, it is clear that the party already perceived by then that Cloud and Tifa are a thing - in KALM in ch2 everyone worries about them fighting, Barret, Red XIII, Aerith! In chapter 2! So I don't think they'd need to hear such an intimate conversation.

True, Kalm and Junon already established this dynamic too! I'd still argue that at least Yuffie and Cait were privy to the important parts of their conversation, at least the parts that made them think they were gonna kiss haha. I think Aerith has the emotional intelligence to get the gist of the situation too.

 

[GamerSkull]

True, Kalm and Junon already established this dynamic too! I'd still argue that at least Yuffie and Cait were privy to the important parts of their conversation, at least the parts that made them think they were gonna kiss haha. I think Aerith has the emotional intelligence to get the gist of the situation too.

The funniest part is that Yuffie and Cait are the newest members of the party. They’ve had less time to be aware of the group dynamics and they still quickly pick up on what’s happening.