SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Sacky]

That’s where a bulk of my frustration lies in particular with the OG.

I see these takes and I think to myself that I must have imagined the dialogue in the Lifestream sequence, and the Highwind scene.

But then I play the game again, see these scenes and am like “Ok, there’s no way I’m misinterpreting this.”

I feel like I’m going nuts sometimes.

I legit have to just watch the scene on YouTube again to keep myself from second guessing myself. I understand for people who played when younger but people who have played recently the dialogue isn't exactly subtle to misinterpret it. I only played OG before Rebirth so I was so confused when people say it's interpretation for Cloti when OG made it pretty clear and a plot twist in the story. For AC though I understand since frustratingly they gave Cloti everything but confirming them XD like how many other couples in fiction even get their pair living together with adopted children with matching clothes and jewellery. You have to actually read a book "the kids are alright" to get the answer in which even then its just they are my family too in comparison to evan and kyrie a bf and gf. So could they not just say it. I understand why people have the advent it was up to interpretation but even then they live together confirmed mutual feelings and have an adopted child XD.

 

[Yoru]

To be honest, I ship Zerith separately from Cloti.

If Cloti never existed, I probably would still like Zerith.

I think I see many say that Zerith shippers are just Cloti shippers so Aerith is out of the way but I take offense at that. I genuinely ship both couples, and one isn’t an excuse ship by any means.

I agree. When Remake was not a thing (=FF7 was not really a topic anymore) I was thinking about Zerith when we were talking about love and couple in videogames. This ending wrecked me man.

 

[GamerSkull]

I legit have to just watch the scene on YouTube again to keep myself from second guessing myself. I understand for people who played when younger but people who have played recently the dialogue isn't exactly subtle to misinterpret it. I only played OG before Rebirth so I was so confused when people say it's interpretation for Cloti when OG made it pretty clear and a plot twist in the story. For AC though I understand since frustratingly they gave Cloti everything but confirming them XD like how many other couples in fiction even get their pair living together with adopted children with matching clothes and jewellery. You have to actually read a book "the kids are alright" to get the answer in which even then its just they are my family too in comparison to evan and kyrie a bf and gf. So could they not just say it. I understand why people have the advent it was up to interpretation but even then they live together confirmed mutual feelings and have an adopted child XD.

This is why I just want explicit confirmation. Not to “win” or anything. I just want to know I’m not fucking nuts.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Is this why a lot of people try to say CC isn't canon? The lore of the LTD is very interesting

Pretty much. It also didn't help that it was on a handheld. It made it extra easy to ignore.

 

[Sacky]

This is why I just want explicit confirmation. Not to “win” or anything. I just want to know I’m not fucking nuts.

Legit just tell me I'm not the crazy one XD

 

[Someonesbunny]

Exactly. Don't get me wrong Zack is amazing but the problem is they tried to sell him as a better love interest for Aerith than Cloud at a time CA's were pretty much set on Cloud as Aerith's soulmate. At a time when they hadn't actually expanded on Zack's feelings for her, when he hadn't been indicated as as important as Cloud in her story. And they did this very late. About ten years after the game released. I love him I do, but I need people to understand how Crisis Core didn't help his case in the slightest when it came to Cleriths accepting him as any viable match for Aerith.

He honestly felt like a consolation prize. "Cloud loves Tifa but here, have this. Also all your precious CA moments are now ZA moments. Enjoy!" Of course CAs were mad. I was mad too at first. Nothing before that made me consider Zack as someone I wanted Aerith to be with. And to say oh she was living similar moments with Cloud, that he had fallen through the church roof first etc felt like the biggest slap in the face.

I am sorry but it was just the worse way to show him as the true love interest. I don't think he deserved the flack but I can absolutely see where it came from.

Rebirth I can argue does a way better job of painting Zack as someone Aerith loves not because Zack in CC wasn't great but because it feels less forced. Less like "Here, you like CA but check out this guy, nice huh?"

If I remember correctly as well, the devs had mentioned much later on that Nojima had ideas about including Zack as a character and deepening his role far too late in the development cycle of the OG so they sort of just... didn't - but the persistence of the view that CA was important in the OG makes sense. Then they decided later on that they would further expand the story and so we have the arrival of AC/ACC and CC so the persistence of these attitudes are really the folly of the storytellers.

1997 to 2007 was a time when no one really questioned CA. In fact it's true that it was CTs back then who were considered to be wrong. It's a case of a ship war where for years one side was so sure they had won already. So it's going to take mountains to admit otherwise.

This is why it's also just really hard to convince CAs who were fans since 1997 that Zack was the true love interest. Before that the idea of Zack was an afterthought as was the idea that CA wasn't the canon not even considered.

You're right, a decade is a while to to go before being given additional evidence and also in the form of supplemental titles in the compilation and one so seminal to be released on the PSP which was not as widely in use as the primary consoles. To your point too, I suppose given this, it does feel like the RE series is meant to remedy the fact that the narrative continuity of FFVII can actually feel very fractured.

 

[Sacky]

So after OG when it first came out was it more Clerith than Cloti? Until AC and KH2 I'm assuming that's where the arguments were the most vicious then with older Vs newer fans from AC. I know that's when the infamous blogs were made right? What was both sides opinions on AC when it came out?

 

[CldS7]

Legit just tell me I'm not the crazy one XD

they definitely made it at a time where they were too scared to imply anything and wanted to get all the fans to show up

Re-Trilogy finally they seem to be getting rid of some of the ambiguity at least for most of the semicasual/casual viewers

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

In which part of the world? Or is it just because the internet was not as popular as of today so people didn’t get a chance to argue about this kind of little thing online…
Cause I definitely remember a group of my friends and I talked about this after we first watched AC…and we all by default thought CT was the couple at the end of the game and got super confused…

I don't doubt that. However my original post is about Crisis Core and Zack. I'm talking about the attitude towards Zack. How CA's reacted to CC negatively back then because they had had not thought to question Aerith had a love interest that wasn't Cloud.

 

[CldS7]

I just cant imagine how you can finish the lifestream sequence then not think Cloud and Tifa were what the game was trying to subvert the entire time tbh.

Clerith shippers are basically shipping Aerith with a Cloud who isn't even whole yet which doesnt make any sense to me especially because Tifa is literally the only one who can turn him back to his real self??

 

[GamerSkull]

Hearing all of this makes me so happy I wasn’t around for the earlier days of LTD discourse, as bad as it seems now it sounds like it was even worse way back then.

 

[Sacky]

Hearing all of this makes me so happy I wasn’t around for the earlier days of LTD discourse, as bad as it seems now it sounds like it was even worse way back then.

Advent first release would have drained me XD without complete edition that movie makes each side have something but neither be happy

 

[Lex]

Hearing all of this makes me so happy I wasn’t around for the earlier days of LTD discourse, as bad as it seems now it sounds like it was even worse way back then.

Anyone who feels this way should go back and read all the historical LTD threads. They're wild.

 

[Sacky]

Anyone who feels this way should go back and read all the historical LTD threads. They're wild.

That on the first pages of this forum XD

 

[GamerSkull]

Anyone who feels this way should go back and read all the historical LTD threads. They're wild.

I’ve read parts of them. And I’ve gotten some interesting lore on koi_bito and WcDonalds. And flower sex.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

So after OG when it first came out was it more Clerith than Cloti? Until AC and KH2 I'm assuming that's where the arguments were the most vicious then with older Vs newer fans from AC. I know that's when the infamous blogs were made right? What was both sides opinions on AC when it came out?

Pretty much. Let's also look at the facts Ultimania's weren't even really a thing till maybe 2004? And even then they weren't translated till much later. Before that what we had was Dismantled. And it was just accepted as ok Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack.

Then AC came out and the novels you started to see a shift but it's not till even ACC that Zack became a factor. And the novels didn't get translated till... i think 2009.

So yeah you had an almost decade where Clerith was convinced we're endgame and then CC came and was an affront to everything Aerith stood for in the eyes of many. I can't really blame them it was definitely whiplash and yes I do think part of that lies on the devs for taking that long to properly establish her story with Zack.

 

[Sacky]

I’ve read parts of them. And I’ve gotten some interesting lore on koi_bito and WcDonalds. And flower sex.

Koi bito hopefully returns with the new ultimania though I will say one of those weapon fishes looked awfully pink XD

 

[CldS7]

Advent first release would have drained me XD without complete edition that movie makes each side have something but neither be happy

you dont know how happy I am we have the proper edition over that rubbish nowadays

 

[Sacky]

Pretty much. Let's also look at the facts Ultimania's weren't even really a thing till maybe 2004? And even then they weren't translated till much later. Before that what we had was Dismantled. And it was just accepted as ok Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack.

Then AC came out and the novels you started to see a shift but it's not till even ACC that Zack became a factor. And the novels didn't get translated till... i think 2009.

So yeah you had an almost decade where Clerith was convinced we're endgame and then CC came and was an affront to everything Aerith stood for in the eyes of many. I can't really blame them it was definitely whiplash and yes I do think part of that lies on the devs for taking that long to properly establish her story with Zack.

Wow to be fair that is a long time to think something is factual. but even then there's still the lifestream and Highwind. So why did a lot of Cleriths think they were endgame?

 

[GamerSkull]

Wow to be fair that is a long time to think something is factual. but even then there's still the lifestream and Highwind. So why did a lot of Cleriths think they were endgame?

Yup, this is my question.

Let’s completely just forget Zack for the moment. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around this even in a pre-CC world.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Wow to be fair that is a long time to think something is factual. but even then there's still the lifestream and Highwind. So why did a lot of Cleriths think they were endgame?

Because of the way the game was designed. It was thought to be player choice and if you're a Clerith who is gonna be in your party ? Who are you going to get the most points with? What date are you going to get?
The Lifestream scene is clear to the who favored Tifa but if you favored Aerith you were not going to get the High Affection Highwind scene to bring home the ideas the Lifestream scene brought up.

Dismantled pretty much convinced people the choice was between HIgh Affection and Low Affection HW scene as both viable options and which scene would you get as a Clerith?

Then AC vanilla came and as a Clerith what was the highlight? Aerith in a field of flowers. Even in the credits.

As a Clerith I can see exactly why this idea persisted because I too thought that same way. However I got the high affection HW scene and my attachment to Aerith was less. By the time AC became popular I also liked Tifa. AC made me like her.

But if you don't have that favor for Tifa your perspective will be different. And that's basically what happened back then.

 

[Sacky]

Because of the way the game was designed. It was thought to be player choice and if you're a Clerith who is gonna be in your party ? Who are you going to get the most points with? What date are you going to get?
The Lifestream scene is clear to the who favored Tifa but if you favored Aerith you were not going to get the High Affection Highwind scene to bring home the ideas the Lifestream scene brought up.

As a Clerith I can see exactly why this idea persisted because I too thought that same way. However I got the high affection HW scene and my attachment to Aerith was less.

Oh so the reason people are saying the game is player choice is because the original is also considered player choice.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Oh so the reason people are saying the game is player choice is because the original is also considered player choice.

Yes. It was believed to be so by CAs for a very long time. And the guides especially Dismantled kinda backed up that idea. It was the Ultimania Omega I think that started shifting the idea to huh maybe there is a set narrative and canon route. But that wasn't translated into English for a while so all you saw was fan translations for a good while. And lots of arguments from those. Anyway to be clear Im saying this as my experience that's what I saw. I myself was actually facinated by the idea of Ultimanias when I learned of them.

 

[tenabrus]

Oh so the reason people are saying the game is player choice is because the original is also considered player choice.

Generally, the debate has been that it's not, just from different sides. From my perspective, I hold that if you stop playing the game at Disk 1, you would think it's Aerith.

But if you start playing the game at Disk 2, you would just think it's Tifa. Aerith has no presence as a romantic interest from Disk 2 on. Having high affinity with Aerith doesn't lead to alternative version of any scene that preserves Cloud's affections for her. The variations are just the degree of intimacy you have with Tifa.

Put another way, if you watch A New Hope, maybe you think both Luke and Han are love interests to Leia, possibly favoring Luke a bit. If you start from Empire Strikes Back, you think it's Han, but Luke is his love rival. And if you watch Return of the Jedi first, you'll only think of Han (and go "wtf?" about Luke lol).

Different points of the narrative transform the relationship, but once that transformation happens, you don't sustain the earlier developments as if they still apply.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Maybe it's because I played OG years after its release, but I never understood how people think it's player choice kind of game? I mean, to me that's like saying that Fire Emblem Awakening is player choice game just because you can pick an option twice and which doesn't affect anything? I guess back in 1997 having dialogue choices was new but, I don't know, they still didn't really affect the story?