SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

This is very healthy and it's the way I approach fandom as well. You can't make me ship canon if I don't like it, but I'm not going to argue against canon either. That's just a waste of time, in my opinion. For example, I do not ship Inuyasha and Kagome, but why would I sit there arguing that they're not canon when it's right in front of my face? Accepting the story as it's told doesn't mean you have to ship the main ship, nor does it mean you hate the media you're partaking in.

Haha I ship Inuyasha with Kikkyo myself. Funny as they're two characters of basically the same person and same coin... But I feel exactly the same way. And yes I have a rule I give myself with media "It's the creators' story, not mine" It's very simple. If something the creator does doesn't appeal to me I either move on or try to see what they want to show me instead and appreciate that as is. If don't like that then fanfiction is where I can find what I want.

Unfortunately sometimes work a gets bigger than the creators which makes it hard to not feel attachment and not feel slighted when things don't go as we expect. It's hard in a way I guess not to feel like characters or a story belongs to us.

But I wish people understood that doesn't make the creator wrong it's just their vision is different and they have every right to having their vision as they see fit because it's theirs. It's just about respecting that boundary that no matter how much we love a work it doesn't mean we dictate how it should go. And that's basically what canon is about how the work goes, not if it's better or worse or right or wrong. Just an answer to what did the creator want for their own work.

It's easy to forget that which is why see toxicity and character bashing and basically imposing what fans think the creator should want. When that isn't possible nor our choice to make.

 

[Eerie]

some random woman who just showed up one day, probably treating the main character awfully

I saw this after I posted, but you have to understand that the bickering couple is a powerful trope in Japan; being able to bicker is seen as being able to open up to someone, being your true self. It doesn't mean that the character is treating the other badly (I mean in City Hunter my OTP was RyoxKaori and she spent her time binding him in a mattress outside their flat and attacking him with 100T hammers lol).

 

[Rin]

Haha I ship Inuyasha with Kikkyo myself. Funny as they're two characters of basically the same person and same coin... But I feel exactly the same way. And yes I have a rule I give myself with media "It's the creators' story, not mine" It's very simple. If something the creator does doesn't appeal to me I either move on or try to see what they want to show me instead and appreciate that as is. If don't like that then fanfiction is where I can find what I want.

Unfortunately sometimes work a gets bigger than the creators which makes it hard to not feel attachment and not feel slighted when things don't go as we expect. It's hard in a way I guess not to feel like characters or a story belongs to us.

But I wish people understood that doesn't make the creator wrong it's just their vision is different and they have every right to having their vision as they see fit because it's theirs. It's just about respecting that boundary that no matter how much we love a work it doesn't mean we dictate how it should go. And that's basically what canon is about how the work goes, not if it's better or worse or right or wrong. Just an answer to what did the creator want for their own work.

It's easy to forget that which is why see toxicity and character bashing and basically imposing what fans think the creator should want. When that isn't possible nor our choice to make.

Ah, a fellow InuKik! We're pretty rare, so always nice to meet another one tbh!

And yeah, I agree. I'm a writer by trade myself, so I'm gonna tell the story I want regardless of fan expectation. Like, of course I don't want to piss people off who have become attached to the characters I've shared with them but, like, they're MY characters so... I'mma do what I want at the end of the day.

 

[nars305]

There are two problems with CoT:

• it's a setup to AC/C
• it doesn't show enough the good moments

We see in CoT Cloud being that anchor that Tifa needs, but because it's a setup it means that things cannot be answered to in the novella itself. "On the Way to a Smile".... actually says a lot, it means it can't be sunshines there. What we don't necessarily see but the devs tell us (which is BAD), is that Cloud was happy. He was happier and happier and that lead him to being afraid of losing it all.
And then yes you can see in AC/C that their problems are certainly going to get resolved, but you also do not get that. Only Cloud's problems of guilt are resolved (as well as Geostigma). We only are hinted at "oh look how Tifa looks at him and how he answers her with a smile". The actual ending to AC/C is in the Kids are Alright, which means that yes, you have to consume a THIRD media to see how it all ends. And honestly, that's asking a bit much even if I do love TKaA.

I kind of wish that too, but I'm not sure they're going to do that. They could however use the very hopeful first pages of CoT, for example, with them rebuilding 7th Heaven, being cute together, but CoT is already contradicted by Rebirth because in CoT Tifa states she couldn't cry for Aerith since after they defeated Sephiroth, however she definitely did cry at the end of Rebirth. But there are moments that can build up towards happiness and hope even right after the OG and that will lead to AC/C, yes.

Oh wow I just got TKAA, so I’ll be looking forward to a little more insight into the afterwards of AC.

That’s my thing with CoT though. I love it because it’s actually realistic. They have been through a lot so of course it won’t be sunshine and rainbows. I love the exchanges they have before he ultimately is ate up by his guilt and leaves.

I think it’s more like, I play the game and oooh and awww at their sweet moments, but then in the back of my head remember what they still have to go through even after the exchange they have when she sees him smiling.

They are bittersweet.

 

[Eerie]

Oh wow I just got TKAA, so I’ll be looking forward to a little more insight into the afterwards of AC.

That’s my thing with CoT though. I love it because it’s actually realistic. They have been through a lot so of course it won’t be sunshine and rainbows. I love the exchanges they have before he ultimately is ate up by his guilt and leaves.

I think it’s more like, I play the game and oooh and awww at their sweet moments, but then in the back of my head remember what they still have to go through even after the exchange they have when she sees him smiling.

They are bittersweet.

TKAA is awesome really, should be mandatory to read xD It took me a while to realise who Marlene was referring to when she said "dad" at the end

For CoT I think a lot of fans didn't understand how happy Cloud actually was, and it highlighted the bumps in their relationship, so people don't really understand that Cloud was indeed happy, which tells me that Nojima didn't have enough space to write that in (since there must have been restrictions about the number of words etc.).

 

[Sacky]

Oh wow I just got TKAA, so I’ll be looking forward to a little more insight into the afterwards of AC.

That’s my thing with CoT though. I love it because it’s actually realistic. They have been through a lot so of course it won’t be sunshine and rainbows. I love the exchanges they have before he ultimately is ate up by his guilt and leaves.

I think it’s more like, I play the game and oooh and awww at their sweet moments, but then in the back of my head remember what they still have to go through even after the exchange they have when she sees him smiling.

They are bittersweet.

We really just need part 3 to show us post advent or a book to be post advent children for more than a scene. They built so much conflict and then you don't see the payoff unless you read a book but even then its still not enough.

 

[GamerSkull]

There is Reminiscence but I agree, we really need a post-AC scene of their domestic bliss.

 

[Ryushikaze]

people should not use marketing material in a LTD discussion

Marketing should never be treated as authoritative or reflecting of the actual narrative. I've gone at length about this, but for example the FF8 commercial outright lies and tells you the opposite of the truth.

Considering it's my money I think I can discuss the marketing materials if I want (I get a bit ruffled when people tell me what I can and can't do heh unless you have actual authority)

I mean, I AM the Admiral.
But as other stated, this is less authoritative and more recommended, because Marketing is selling you a sizzle that may or may not match the final product and you're never going to convince most people that way.

Anyway it does somewhat make more sense to me now in this instance at least - apparently the version of NPTK that plays during the dream date is the One Last Date- My Dream instrumental - which yes can be about Zack and Cloud in this context but doubtful about everyone.

I mean the song as a whole seems to be about tearful goodbyes and hoping they never need come again, so it would track that while she's saying goodbye to Cloud he would be the goodbye it references.

Also if something is too familiar to me I lose interest. I'm an anime fan so osanajimi romance is nothing new to me. Tale as old as time. I'm an introvert as is my husband so seeing two introverts getting together is just.... My life. Nothing really groundbreaking. The Lifestream scene where Tifa goes into his mind? I'm an Evangelion fan and I've seen similar with the whole Carl Jung persona memories true self being unlocked thing. Jungian psychology stuff in media is my jam but I've seen it. Many times. And FF7 is influenced by Evangelion there are literally scenes that play homage to it. So to me it's not as unique as to others. Even when I was 16 it didn't really strike me as a favorite scene. It's a very beautiful one but

I don't think FF7 was referencing Evangelion so much as it was drawing from the same source well which was the fascination with Jewish and Christian gnostic imagery and concepts that was very popular in the 90s in Japan.

 

[abzy1200]

For CoT I think a lot of fans didn't understand how happy Cloud actually was

The thing is, people aren't even really wrong for thinking that in the first place. Case of Tifa is in dire need of something that showcases Cloud was happy with them. Almost everything in it except for a couple things makes them all seem absolutely miserable.

I think devoting a segment/scene to, maybe, them having dinner together or something could have helped with that, before Cloud was asked to deliver the flowers to Forgotten Capital that is.

Then again, I'm not the author, and I'm also not very good with literature in general, so I don't actually know if my idea is a good one.

 

[GamerSkull]

I actually disagree, there are a few instances in there that imply Cloud is happy as he spends time with the three of them,

However, the more angsty stuff is explicit because they are using that as a basis to set up where he is in Advent Children.

They’re more noticeable because of that and so those are the moments that stuck out to readers.

I do agree though that they need to do more to show the happier side of that arrangement as I believe a lot of misconceptions arose because of it.

 

[Stiggie]

I saw this after I posted, but you have to understand that the bickering couple is a powerful trope in Japan; being able to bicker is seen as being able to open up to someone, being your true self. It doesn't mean that the character is treating the other badly (I mean in City Hunter my OTP was RyoxKaori and she spent her time binding him in a mattress outside their flat and attacking him with 100T hammers lol).

That might be, doesn't change the fact that I almost invariably hate them and want to dropkick them through a window XD

Like I said, Tifa and Cloud is one of the few, and probably my most historically significant feeling examples where I felt like my sweet gambare underdog girl won and finally got some happiness. And what's more after the most horrifying and depressing series of "L"s imaginable. I don't know any other character that I feel deserves a win, deserves her "happy end", more. So that's probably one of the reasons I'm just so bothered about this entire thing being drawn out by the fans if not the developers.

Look at AC, sure, if you understand the story you know it's a happy end, but what do we get to see? Tifa being miserable 2 years on. Case of Tifa, what do we see? Tifa being miserable. By never just closing the book SE have essentially just made it so that the one time where I really felt happy about a girls loyalty and efforts being rewarded....still hasn't gotten closure.

Which is why the kissing scene felt sooooo satisfying after 27 years. And why I would not take it well if after 27 years they were to decide to reverse the one win that has always meant so much to me. Honestly would feel like a confirmation that we can't have nice things in our world.

Ironically I just read a new chapter in a manga I follow where the childhood friend loses where I did actually root for the "manic pink whirlwind that came suddenly into his life".

 

[abzy1200]

I actually disagree, there are a few instances in there that imply Cloud is happy as he spends time with the three of them,

However, the more angsty stuff is explicit because they are using that as a basis to set up where he is in Advent Children.

They’re more noticeable because of that and so those are the moments that stuck out to readers.

I do agree though that they need to do more to show the happier side of that arrangement as I believe a lot of misconceptions arose because of it.

Yeah, as I said I'm not very good with literature, I'm not denying he was happy, I actually like to think he was really happy. I mean, the whole premise is that he thinks he's unworthy of said happiness he was experiencing due to past failures/inadequacy. It is meant to set up advent children after all.

Maybe I just want see more happy domestic Cloti because there's so very little of it.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, as I said I'm not very good with literature, I'm not denying he was happy, I actually like to think he was really happy. I mean, the whole premise is that he thinks he's unworthy of said happiness he was experiencing due to past failures/inadequacy. It is meant to set up advent children after all.

Maybe I just want see more happy domestic Cloti because there's so very little of it.

Hopefully, we’ll get it after Part 3. In the form of a scene or a short story.

 

[Empyrea]

Kiznaiver flashbacks.

I remember ending up hating it because it was an interesting premise that just devolved into relationship drama.

But it has some of what you mentioned here. I was annoyed.

Oh gooood Kiznaiver....
That anime had such a good premise. It's really a shame that what you said happened.

 

[GamerSkull]

Oh gooood Kiznaiver....
That anime had such a good premise. It's really a shame that what you said happened.

I like the idea that it was made to share physical pain but then tackled emotional pain.

But what really grinded my gears is the idea that the emotional pain they focused on was relationship drama. Which is maybe fine for one or two characters but it quickly becomes mostly all of them.

There are other types of emotional pain than unrequited feelings, ya know.

 

[nars305]

TKAA is awesome really, should be mandatory to read xD It took me a while to realise who Marlene was referring to when she said "dad" at the end

For CoT I think a lot of fans didn't understand how happy Cloud actually was, and it highlighted the bumps in their relationship, so people don't really understand that Cloud was indeed happy, which tells me that Nojima didn't have enough space to write that in (since there must have been restrictions about the number of words etc.).

That’s what pulls me back to not be so bent about their hurdles. He was happy, just has horrible survivor’s guilt.

I think also for the LTD it’d be nice to see a more happier scene after AC to kill that argument more. That one that he was unhappy with Tifa because he loved Aerith. That’s me being selfish, but I’d love a scene of them being happy.

But honestly, in the third game if it is so abundantly clear for all to see that they have that soul mate kind of love then I probably won’t even care and accept the realism of the afterwards.

 

[abzy1200]

But honestly, in the third game if it is so abundantly clear for all to see that they have that soul mate kind of love

This isn't really relevent to what you said, sorry, but it just reminded me of something.

What about Cloud and Aerith makes people think they are soulmates? Is it just an old thing that could have been true in the original back in 1997 that never really died out even after later story developments and or new material came out in the compilation?

 

[Rin]

This isn't really relevent to what you said, sorry, but it just reminded me of something.

What about Cloud and Aerith makes people think they are soulmates? Is it just an old thing that could have been true in the original back in 1997 that never really died out even after later story developments and or new material came out in the compilation?

Just an old thing, I think. If I remember right, it goes back to Cait's compatibility prediction specifically.

 

[abzy1200]

Just an old thing, I think. If I remember right, it goes back to Cait's compatibility prediction specifically.

They removed this in Rebirth didn't they? Just more evidence as to where this story is going.

 

[c.lupara]

In my humble opinion, people should be slightly more accurate in their reflections. Cloud, Tifa and Aerith are proof of the various shades that love can take on;

Cloud is in love with Aerith but not in love in the sense we mean:
for me it is clear that this remains the example of love understood as a strong spiritual connection that gives you strength and keeps you going. This type of love is friendship and what is friendship if not one of the purest and strongest forms of love there are?

On the other hand, Cloud loves Tifa not in the same way:
this is a love that comes from afar, carried in the heart over time and never (yet at least) expressed in all respects.
This type of love includes not only some aspects of love understood as friendship, but also some factors such as physical attraction (in rebirth it is obvious) and also a sense of inadequacy understood in never knowing how to behave with the person you are dealing with.

 

[liuliuliu]

This isn't really relevent to what you said, sorry, but it just reminded me of something.

What about Cloud and Aerith makes people think they are soulmates? Is it just an old thing that could have been true in the original back in 1997 that never really died out even after later story developments and or new material came out in the compilation?

Our brain will trick us to see whatever we believe.
IMO Cloud and Aerith will never be soulmates in any context because Aerith has never met the real cloud without the soilder persona.
She doesn’t know him as him. She only knows a fake version of Cloud

 

[Rin]

They removed this in Rebirth didn't they? Just more evidence as to where this story is going.

Yeah, they removed this along with Cloud promising to take her on an airship one day. Two of their most iconic scenes, which I did feel bad about but I think it was a good decision overall because Cloud isn't actually wavering between two girls. One is his friend and the other is the girl he's in love with.

 

[luminous03]

Just woke up to twitter in shambles again. GOD I should take this as a sign to delete it.

Apparently, many extremists jp CA are demanding and uploading hashtag to delete tifa's UTH or add an optional scene with aerith. Nothing new here but it got me wandering, as far as i know ff7 community is kinda toxic so has it ever been a similar situation that where the developers "backpedal" (heck i dnt even if i spell it correctly) in order to fulfil fan's wishes, ik it has been discussed that no need to worry about lifestream scene, but the doubt has defeated me again about UTH

 

[nars305]

This isn't really relevent to what you said, sorry, but it just reminded me of something.

What about Cloud and Aerith makes people think they are soulmates? Is it just an old thing that could have been true in the original back in 1997 that never really died out even after later story developments and or new material came out in the compilation?

I wonder this myself. From my perspective, I watched AC as a kid knowing nothing about FF7. From that I assumed Cloud and Tifa were together and it carried on to Remake. So I don’t think I ever had the capacity to view Aerith as the soulmate, seeing as the direction they took it in the Remake is very Cloud and Tifa heavy.

Rebirth is what really got me into this game, to the point of being on this forum. I was shocked when I saw there was a debate over this, and I still was a bit surprised after looking into how the OG twists and shows everything was for Tifa.

I feel like the intention was that Tifa and Cloud were soulmates and meant to be, otherwise, introducing Aerith with the intention of them being soulmates kind of makes that twist fall flat doesn’t it?

The game really can feel weird depending on who the player likes. It’s kind of like the last date. Someone here had said that moment can be jarring if you’ve romanced Tifa the whole time, and I agree. I feel like it’s very similar to how a Clerith person would view the LS sequence.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Quote cut off for some reason

I don't think FF7 was referencing Evangelion so much as it was drawing from the same source well which was the fascination with Jewish and Christian gnostic imagery and concepts that was very popular in the 90s in Japan.

Yeah I know. I am super into all that too myself. It's why I love FF7's lore so much.
I just said it was similar to me. Not exactly direct references. But on a fun note there actually are homages to Evangelion in FF7. One scene that looks very much like references the spear of longinus intentionally, the weapons, and the Dplug suit reference you get in Gold Saucer is an homage which tells me the devs were at least fans. And I love that.

It was one of the biggest influences of other media around back then. It had one of the most famous love triangles back then which is also an illusiory triangle. Which was ended in a very interesting way in Rebuild.

And other games like Xenogears developed alongside of it with several ideas from Xenogears draft making it into FF7 and vise versa ...and the Xeno series in general and even modern games like Honkai Impact today still have references to it. All games I love. It was just a phenomenon of epic proportions in terms of media influence.

I don't think that means FF7 was a copy of it or anything or that the LS scene copied it but there are as I said homages in the game. It was just one of the influences around that time in terms of sheer popularity and media influence and yeah as you said Gnostic and JudoChristrianity mysticism was huge back then. And it was stuff I was into. And still am I've written huge essays about Gnosticism as well as Jungian psychology in FF7. So I think that's great. I just have seen similar over the years so the identity stuff doesn't grab me like someone who might see a scene like that for the first time.

Still my jam lorewise though.

Edit: Clarification and elaboration added and fixed the quote (I will stop talking before I jump into a series of tangent essays of 5000 words about Gnosticism and Jungian themes but basically in context to my answer my interest in that scene is more about the Jungian and Gnostic themes in general than the romance)