SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
But then it makes a Clerith argument of "Look! Cloud didn't want to accept her death and lost his mind when he realised she was gone, he didn't do that for Tifa in Gongaga"

So fucking annoying. I can practically smell the twitter posts about it already.
Well, you can’t really stop hardcore shippers. They’ll do that even if Aerith doesn’t appear.
Thing is... even a flashback has nothing to do here I think. Cloud knows about loss. He experienced it again and again. His mom is dead. Avalanche is dead. Sure he loved Aerith but I don't see it as a break point. I don't know. Maybe they'll make it look good and I'll experienced it in full and will agree to their vision, but for now... meh. Aerith death has never been the FF7 main plot. I just want to let it go now and see something else.

I just don't like it when you overdo it.
I think the Lifestream will primarily focus on Cloud’s past in Nibelheim like it does in the OG, so Aerith probably won’t show up.

They’re already setting it up with the infantryman from Cloud’s version of the story.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Maybe a hot take and people will be pissed but for me Cloud never had a problem letting Aerith go. I'm sorry but in OG, she died and that's that. The team is sad, they "burry" her and they hardly talk about it until the end. It's the same with Advent Children. He never had a problem accepting her death. What depresses him is feeling useless and unable to save the people he loves. He couldn't save the people he loved before, and he still can't now. Basically, according to him, he hasn't evolved and is back to being a teenager lacking confidence. That's why he feels useless and undeserving of happiness. That's why he's looking for forgiveness.

Obviously they're changing things with Rebirth. Aerith became something too big to ignore. And I'm pretty sure they're gonna bring her there and there. I'm not totally okay with that. But whatever. I still think she shouldn't be here for the LS. If they really wanna push it, she should just be the one guiding Tifa to Cloud. But stay at the front door.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Maybe a hot take and people will be pissed but for me Cloud never had a problem letting Aerith go. I'm sorry but in OG, she died and that's that. The team is sad, they "burry" her and they hardly talk about it until the end. It's the same with Advent Children. He never had a problem accepting her death. What depresses him is feeling useless and unable to save the people he loves. He couldn't save the people he loved before, and he still can't now. Basically, according to him, he hasn't evolved and is back to being a teenager lacking confidence. That's why he feels useless and undeserving of happiness. That's why he's looking for forgiveness.

Obviously they're changing things with Rebirth. Aerith became something to big to ignore. And I'm pretty sure they're gonna bring her there and there. I'm not totally okay with that. But whatever. I still think she shouldn't be here for the LS. If they really wanna push it, she should just be the one guiding Tifa to Cloud. But stay at the front door.
I don't think she or a flashback of her will be in the lifestream at all and the main reason is That Whole sequence is meant to be a celebration of real Cloud coming back, showing he doesn't need to be a Solider to be a hero. Its the biggest hype and feel good moment of the whole game after so much angst and suffering the characters go through. To have that moment be where Cloud starts grieving is not tonally correct. It doesn't actually help him at all to know about the death here since hes meant to not feel like he failed to piece his mind back together. Theres already so many Cloud and Tifa memories and possibly new ones to go through by the fact Seventh Heaven and Stargazer are seen in the lifestream and possibly a fight sequence since Sephiroths Whispers are interfering. Instead it would be much better if after Clouds mind is fixed when we go back to Forgotten Capital he sees the death in full and then gets to grieve, Either that or it happens earlier at crater
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I don’t think we have much to worry about regarding the LS sequence. The devs have repeatedly stated it’s like their favorite part and they understand why. Not to mention the copious amounts of doubling down on why Cloud wants to join Soldier. And the fact that Rebirth has quite a bit of CT all tells me that they aren’t gonna shaft Tifa in her big moment.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
For fun, can we figure out how many days there are in between gongaga and Aeriths death?

I'd love to know the time frame between when Aerith admits to still having feelings for Zack, and her supposedly, according to Clerith. Having totally replaced him for Cloud.

We presumably have an evening in gongaga, which Cloud spends with Tifa. (Also where Aerith witnesses Cloud almost killing her best friend)
Then they go to Cosmo canyon where Cloud potentially shouts at Aerith and nothing else of note happens. One night is spent there. Next day they go to nibelheim, where Cloud talks about sitting on the water tower simping over Tifa, and then they split up. And I think they don't even spend an evening there do they? After that it's off to the gold saucer where Cloud potentially kisses Tifa, which then leads to the temple the next morning where once again Cloud and Aerith are separated. Am I missing anything? So essentially 3 days.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
For fun, can we figure out how many days there are in between gongaga and Aeriths death?

I'd love to know the time frame between when Aerith admits to still having feelings for Zack, and her supposedly, according to Clerith. Having totally replaced him for Cloud.

We presumably have an evening in gongaga, which Cloud spends with Tifa. (Also where Aerith witnesses Cloud almost killing her best friend)
Then they go to Cosmo canyon where Cloud potentially shouts at Aerith and nothing else of note happens. One night is spent there. Next day they go to nibelheim, where Cloud talks about sitting on the water tower simping over Tifa, and then they split up. And I think they don't even spend an evening there do they? After that it's off to the gold saucer where Cloud potentially kisses Tifa, which then leads to the temple the next morning where once again Cloud and Aerith are separated. Am I missing anything? So essentially 3 days.
I would say your guess is pretty decent. I would say 3 or 4 days tops, maybe a couple more if you like to think some sidequest-related things caused a couple of days to pass (in an off-screen manner). Definitely less than a week.

Also, I'm not sure how aware the party is that Cloud almost murdered her. In fact, I can easily believe Tifa did not tell anyone, and they maybe assumed she fell because of the Whispers. But who knows...

Another thing to note is, NPTK was written directly after Tifa tells Aerith that Cloud remembered Zack. Which I believe is earlier in the night to the Gondola dates.
 

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
I don’t think we have much to worry about regarding the LS sequence. The devs have repeatedly stated it’s like their favorite part and they understand why. Not to mention the copious amounts of doubling down on why Cloud wants to join Soldier. And the fact that Rebirth has quite a bit of CT all tells me that they aren’t gonna shaft Tifa in her big moment.
It would be a shame if they did. With the tease in Gongaga I have pretty high expectations for that scene.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Another excellent band name. I'm thinking something experimental, like industrial metal with a theremin added in and a really weird counterpoint baseline that's oddly low in the mix. Signature song: Pink Hell is on Fire (Who Brought the Marshmallows?)
I'm not saying we set the fire/
but I love to watch the flames burn higher/
We are truly glad to see it go/
So my friend, who brought the Marshmallows?

We're this literal rather than metaphorical, I'd guess you put wheels under the ship :monster:
Nah, just exploited a glitch and we're still in the surf animation so now we don't have standard collision.

I'm picturing TLS as a tented apartment structure, with you in an exterminator's jumpsuit.
You got your symbiotic Cleriths, and then you got your infestation type Cleriths. Our techniques are laser targeted to take out the infestations while leaving the beneficial ones mostly unharmed.

That sounds lovable.
It is. They have a gimmick of having created an entire 80+ years of fictional comics publishing and in addition to running a game company, they have a podcast devoted solely to filling in gaps in that history. Sentinels of the Multiverse. Plays up to 5. You can give the digital version of the old edition a look if you're curious before dropping the real money on the actual card game.

On the surface he looks cold and annoyed, inside he's melting and grinding ear to ear.
It's interesting to compare "grumpy brother" Cloud with Kyrie and Yuffie (and Aerith) vs Bro Cloud with Barret vs generally just Grumpy Cloud on the failure date with Cait, Cid and Vincent.

Oh that's good. Nothing like the thought of a Kraken attack 200 miles inland to keep people from sleeping soundly. Though I must ask, could gill breathing creatures survive in the sky as well? And how does this interact with player races with a swim speed?
Due to the general magic, it was only oceanic and fairly surface dwelling monsters for the most part, though swim speed was akin to a fly speed though not as maneuverable.

I'm jealous, I got the unofficial duty of "reminding the managers that making extremely sexual jokes at work is inviting an eventual sexual harassment suit" every friggin' day. They weren't even fun or witty.
Blegh. Sympathies.

See that you do, I like my kindness to surprise people and possibly make them suspicious.
So they never learn you're a great big softy.

Weird. And yeah, Logan's been around so long he's had who knows how many names. You'd think he'd be chill to try out a new one.
Maybe he can be the Badger.

True. At least he's not famous out of universe under a name he'd never use in universe. Poor "Spider-Gwen," she still using Ghost-Spider?
In the 616 yes, and Spider-woman in her home world IIRC.

That does in fact sound loads better than the Clone Saga. I wonder if Peter and MJ got to keep the baby in that draft.
Yes! More Mayday parker! All the continuities where the parkers are allowed to become parents together have had some excellent stories.

Cable's not half bad. Even the techno-organic virus sorta fits as the dangerous monster that has to be kept under control ala Chaos.

You notice we're heavily drawing from X-books? Outside of Spidey and Shellhead, it's all X-characters up in here.
X-men has a lot of the right vibes. But you forgot one of your own suggestions- Ben Grimm. Plus we're still in the Party.
For Cid, hard to say. Trying to think of a cantankerous pilot or space related character.

That would be a smoking pile of self-hatred.
Possibly literally as it set itself on fire in various ways to burn off its conjoined other half.

Ooo rent free mobile apartments. Now we're back on track.
Need a Cetra, why not Zoidberg?

It always bothered me, you'd have books and comments mics clearly show that even legendary Jedi weren't as saintly and perfect as they wanted the Galaxy to see, but they'd never let them explore it.

The Sith creed is still superior though. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to power, power leads to victory.
The trick is whose power does the hate lead to. The sith think it's always their power. This is why both sides are lacking. Sometimes your own hate isn't the answer. Sometimes it's that fucker's hate while you stay calm and happy as he just fumes and fumes.

It's a rarity for me, a game that lets me create an in universe OC that has little to no interest from me. Infinite was the new super-powered Eggman minion that Sonic jobs to at the beginning of the game only to in turn do nothing but be cartoonishly evil and job to everyone for the rest of the game.
Yeah, I'd heard it was very imbalanced in both plot and gameplay.

Unless it's not, as if national stereotypes are to be believed Australians would be just too damn tough and jolly to go extinct. Fallout deals heavily in deconstructing or lamp shading national stereotypes. Ergo it follows that Australians ended up being what The Master wanted Super Mutants to be just by being. Boom, thriving.
The whole country is still filled with horrific monsters, but it's all proportional and the Super-Aussies honestly think swooping season isn't as bad as it was in the before times.

Good old Florida Man. I'm so glad I have a family agreement to never approach Florida.
Remember, it's not the man in florida you need to watch out for. It's the florida in the man.

I think that's a gap that could be bridged. Man I was bad at Trauma Center though.
And everyone's bad at surgeon sim. It'll be perfect!

I'll do the tripping, I have an excellent plan. I just need to shout "Hi Aerith" and wave at someone behind him and take the shot when he spins in that direction. Besides I trust your attention to detail to get us candy skull markings that really appear to be laden with symbolism. We're gonna need pink sharpies.
There will be so many fiddly little but ultimately meaningless details.

I pretty much called what Cloud was mouthing at the end. It does mean that it on some level he is aware Aerith died.
I think the thing is, Cloud isn't not aware she's dead, but he's also aware she's alive? At the same time? He's existing in a quantum superposition of worlds and may NOT quite understand what happened. The real question is whether or not the pink migraine of memory was Aerith covering up, or making him remember her death.

Yeah, I think it will likely be the first of those too.

But it will be in addition to Tifa basically losing faith in him as well.

All the dominoes will begin to fall.
I don't think it's going to happen at the same time as he loses himself. It might lead to a moment of self doubt that he recovers from through Tifa saying "I believe in you" leading us handily to the "Tifa's opinion are what matters, nothing else" line that foreshadows his mind breaking when the truth comes out he was not at Nibelheim in the manner he thought he was.



BTW, is it just me or are the Cleriths on social media sites really going hard with trying to claim victory with half understood Ultimania snippets? At least I've seen a couple of accounts spamming the same pictures and talking points with almost zero interaction.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I'm not saying we set the fire/
but I love to watch the flames burn higher/
We are truly glad to see it go/
So my friend, who brought the Marshmallows?

Hmmm... I like it, but is it intended as a chorus or first verse? I could go either way, but it changes my preferred placement of the theremin.

Nah, just exploited a glitch and we're still in the surf animation so now we don't have standard collision.

Fuck, turn hard right then and through the rock formations, then due north. You can grab a Shaymin without needing discontinued event items :trainermon:

You got your symbiotic Cleriths, and then you got your infestation type Cleriths. Our techniques are laser targeted to take out the infestations while leaving the beneficial ones mostly unharmed.

I'm glad the d signers of this system foresaw the day beneficial Cleriths would actually post in here. Speaking of which, hi Maidenofwar!

It is. They have a gimmick of having created an entire 80+ years of fictional comics publishing and in addition to running a game company, they have a podcast devoted solely to filling in gaps in that history. Sentinels of the Multiverse. Plays up to 5. You can give the digital version of the old edition a look if you're curious before dropping the real money on the actual card game.

Might have to look into it, I've heard of SotM... somewhere. TVTropes, maybe? Sounded good whoever brought it up.

It's interesting to compare "grumpy brother" Cloud with Kyrie and Yuffie (and Aerith) vs Bro Cloud with Barret vs generally just Grumpy Cloud on the failure date with Cait, Cid and Vincent.

Cloud is multifaceted. Most of the facets are "grumpy" at minimum, but still multifaceted.

Due to the general magic, it was only oceanic and fairly surface dwelling monsters for the most part, though swim speed was akin to a fly speed though not as maneuverable.

So a Triton or Sea Elf could wreak havoc from above, but a winged Tiefling could probably do it better. Interesting. And giving high level summoners/conjurers more options to play with on top of that.

Blegh. Sympathies.

Appreciated. Besides, I'll always have the memory of walking out the front door of that job backwards while flying a double eagle and cackling. Immediately after the manager being flipped off had been overruled by their boss whilst attempting to fire me.

So they never learn you're a great big softy.

:monster:

Maybe he can be the Badger.

I was refreshing my comics knowledge with a wiki walks last night, I understand we already have a Honey Badger (she's sweet, plus claws) so I don't see why not.

In the 616 yes, and Spider-woman in her home world IIRC.

That tracks. With how multiverse focused the Spider books get even compared to Marvel as a whole, individual code names for 616 at least really should be the rule.

Yes! More Mayday parker!

One of the finest moments in comics history, Spider-Girl smacking around a young lady in a familiar (ridiculous) green and yellow suit and casually telling the bystanders "my dad used to beat up her dad."

All the continuities where the parkers are allowed to become parents together have had some excellent stories.

MC2 and Renew Your Vows alike deserve all the love they got and then some.

X-men has a lot of the right vibes. But you forgot one of your own suggestions- Ben Grimm.

I remembered our ever lovin' blue eyed pick for Barret after posting, decided not to edit and let you have the correction. S'what you do, after all.

Plus we're still in the Party.
For Cid, hard to say. Trying to think of a cantankerous pilot or space related character.

Not just a pilot, also an engineer and would be astronaut. I hate to suggest this but... MCU Rocket Raccoon?

Or, going back to Logan, isn't Mr. Howlett one of the mechanics/most common pilots for the Blackbird? Expertly trained with explosives as per the Dynamite limit break, fights primarily by throwing himself blades first at opponents? Honestly Cid's various Dragoon jumping stabs kinda work as self-propelled Fastball Specials. Also, chain smoking. Yeah I like this better than Rocket, despite my love of Rocket.

Possibly literally as it set itself on fire in various ways to burn off its conjoined other half.

While constantly trying to edit its own genes to isolate one of the fused beings from the other while granting fire resistance to a specific half but constantly stepping on its own toes and doing both. At least it's keep them out of everyone's hair for a while, till they get desperate.

Need a Cetra, why not Zoidberg?

Sadly Zoidberg's new shell house at the Forgotten Capital just burned down. Something about a cigar.

The trick is whose power does the hate lead to. The sith think it's always their power. This is why both sides are lacking. Sometimes your own hate isn't the answer. Sometimes it's that fucker's hate while you stay calm and happy as he just fumes and fumes.

Ah yes, the downfall of most Sith. Isn't this even the source of most of Vader's actual losses?

Yeah, I'd heard it was very imbalanced in both plot and gameplay.

Sonic deserves better. I mean it's not Sonic 06 bad but that's almost the definition of damning with faint praise.

The whole country is still filled with horrific monsters, but it's all proportional and the Super-Aussies honestly think swooping season isn't as bad as it was in the before times.

At least the red and black spiders are big enough to see 'em coming now. Just watch out for the koalas, you know it's required that they become Drop Bears in Fallout or anything like Fallout.

Remember, it's not the man in florida you need to watch out for. It's the florida in the man.

I'd question my sanity for coming back down south if I'd had any other options.


And everyone's bad at surgeon sim. It'll be perfect!

Can't wait till someone tries to add a rose to a bouquet and ends up with thorns stapling it to their hand for the rest of the round.

There will be so many fiddly little but ultimately meaningless details.

This is everything I dreamed of when I suggested it.

I think the thing is, Cloud isn't not aware she's dead, but he's also aware she's alive? At the same time? He's existing in a quantum superposition of worlds and may NOT quite understand what happened. The real question is whether or not the pink migraine of memory was Aerith covering up, or making him remember her death.

I imagine most people who even briefly experience quantum superposition would come out of it confused or broken in some way. Poor kids not a Time Lord after all.

I don't think it's going to happen at the same time as he loses himself. It might lead to a moment of self doubt that he recovers from through Tifa saying "I believe in you" leading us handily to the "Tifa's opinion are what matters, nothing else" line that foreshadows his mind breaking when the truth comes out he was not at Nibelheim in the manner he thought he was.

BTW, is it just me or are the Cleriths on social media sites really going hard with trying to claim victory with half understood Ultimania snippets? At least I've seen a couple of accounts spamming the same pictures and talking points with almost zero interaction.

So... same old same old?
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Also where Aerith witnesses Cloud almost killing her best friend

Nobody knows. Barret/Red/Caith were in the bottom section where the view is hidden by the upper plate. Aerith/Yuffie are returning backward to join the rest of the team because their path was blocked by Scarlet (why Tifa is alone in the first place)

They just saw Tifa fall in the mako pool, and heard Cloud scream before being catatonic. And Tifa won't tell them because she doesn't want the other doubting about Cloud. It's the same with Aerith and the black Materia. The team doesn't see shit with the whispers tornado. So when they retrieve her and Cloud after their fall, she just told them he fought Sephiroth and lost the black materia. The girls are covering his ass.

1713604616610.jpeg
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
BTW, is it just me or are the Cleriths on social media sites really going hard with trying to claim victory with half understood Ultimania snippets? At least I've seen a couple of accounts spamming the same pictures and talking points with almost zero interaction.
I don't see the difference from before :awesome:

Also, re NC and LS sequences: for the NC scene, I don't think there will be anything else than the Nibelheim incident at play. Because it's very important to convey to the player that what makes Cloud break is the fact that Tifa doubts him. Because I feel that this sentence "it's only your opinion that counts" that makes Tifa realise that she needs the truth, that she wants to believe in him. It is their bond being tested while they're being manipulated and gaslit by Sephiroth and... it does not break. Cloud breaks, but not their bond and this is why she decides to search for him after this. If you put Aerith's death here, it will muddle the message as well as the message that their bond is being tested, it makes less sense for Tifa to search for Cloud after this. Despite everything, you have to show that the connection is still here for this scene to work, as well as the following ones.

For the Lifestream sequence, I'm still surprised at how many fans don't get that the first part of this sequence is a huge love confession (the second part being the resolution of the Nibelheim incident); I mean it's even said that this is where they realise their feelings for each other there but people stubbornely refuse to take this into account when crafting theories. This cannot be a group project, at most we'll have Aerith (and Zack?) guiding them in the Lifestream, protecting them, but that's as far as it can go. Yes, the Lifestream scene will definitely be expanded upon; it is not a surprise as we see Tifa being aware of one of the core elements, ie Cloud actually trying to help her in Mt Nibel when they were kids - that one memory that PROVED that Cloud was the true Cloud, which means they'll have to rely on something else now to prove that. We also see the Black Whispers attacking Cloud's memories in the Lifestream at the end. To me that shows expansion of the scene with new additions, however as the Weapons fled the place of the Lifestream memories, one has to wonder what happens then to Cloud's memories. IMHO they will have to talk a lot more about memories and their feelings associated, Cloud's hopes and dreams (Cosmo Canyon speaks a lot about the essence of the Lifestream being more than just memories, so I think we'll see that). I have said it before but to me, CT is probably one of SE's greatest love stories and we will see that being developped inside the Lifestream.

On a side note I was watching Welonz yesterday playing and she said that Cloud and Tifa never really had a conversation about their fight in Kalm, that the topic had been avoided so far. And yes, of course as a new player you can't understand this, but the Kalm fight is a setup not only for CT to open up about each other in Rebirth, but also for the NC and LS scenes - I realised this as she was talking about it.

Honestly for Aerith's death, I see it more as an aknowledgement later on when they return to the city of the Ancients and we can have her death and burial for real, that Cloud admits he imagined having saved her when it was not the case. Because, it is what happened there. The same way we need to have an aknowledgement on how Zack's death traumatised him as well as what happened after Cloud beat Sephiroth - this part was left out in the OG outside the Lifestream scene because it had no place there, and I feel the same towards Aerith's death.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
For the Lifestream sequence, I'm still surprised at how many fans don't get that the first part of this sequence is a huge love confession (the second part being the resolution of the Nibelheim incident); I mean it's even said that this is where they realise their feelings for each other there but people stubbornely refuse to take this into account when crafting theories. This cannot be a group project, at most we'll have Aerith (and Zack?) guiding them in the Lifestream, protecting them, but that's as far as it can go.

That's precisely what we're afraid of. We know what this scene is supposed to be. That's why the trauma of Aerith's death flies through the air like a sword of Damocles. It's something that's not present in OG, there's a lot to cover in Part III and there doesn't seem to be many places where they can resolve it from what we know.

So far, they wanted to maintain their equal girls treatment. I don't know if they'll accept that for this part of the game, unfortunately for a certain part of the fandom, one girl is more important than the other and that it's impossible to please everyone.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
The developpers know better than us what this scene is. My personal fear for a long time was that they'd include a Sephiroth fight there (still is a tiny bit, especially with all the Whispers around it now). I mean we all have our fears but in the end, if I'm wrong, I'll have to accept it. However, the LS scene is Tifa's big moment, it is her shining moment as a heroine and I think the devs know that.

In Rebirth we got to see Aerith a lot and her character fleshed out because we'll never spend time again with her the way we did now. In the same way, the defining moment between Cloud and Tifa is the Lifestream scene, and this moment can never be done in any way or shape at any other moment in the FFVII Compilation (OG aside). Aerith's death can be shown fully later on (and it's my belief it will), but this defining moment that explains all of Cloud's character until now, his motivations and feelings for Tifa can only be done once. And I believe the devs know that and won't water it, given Nojima wants to make things clear.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
The developpers know better than us what this scene is. My personal fear for a long time was that they'd include a Sephiroth fight there (still is a tiny bit, especially with all the Whispers around it now). I mean we all have our fears but in the end, if I'm wrong, I'll have to accept it. However, the LS scene is Tifa's big moment, it is her shining moment as a heroine and I think the devs know that.

In Rebirth we got to see Aerith a lot and her character fleshed out because we'll never spend time again with her the way we did now. In the same way, the defining moment between Cloud and Tifa is the Lifestream scene, and this moment can never be done in any way or shape at any other moment in the FFVII Compilation (OG aside). Aerith's death can be shown fully later on (and it's my belief it will), but this defining moment that explains all of Cloud's character until now, his motivations and feelings for Tifa can only be done once. And I believe the devs know that and won't water it, given Nojima wants to make things clear.
I think you're being too optimistic about the developers. Remember, these are the same developers who in the 2020s looked at a story about the ecological and social effects of sucking up the natural resources of the planet and decided "you know what, that isn't a poignant and topical enough subject to build a strong narrative around, we need to involve multiple timelines and fate!".

The developers have no qualms about absolutely muddying and overshadowing important aspects of the games for the sake of trying to be clever.
They seem to have the mistaken impression that you can add things onto a story and as long as the original thing is still there then the additions won't take anything away from it, totally missing the point that focus and clarity are two of the most important parts in telling a story.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I think you're being too optimistic about the developers. Remember, these are the same developers who in the 2020s looked at a story about the ecological and social effects of sucking up the natural resources of the planet and decided "you know what, that isn't a poignant and topical enough subject to build a strong narrative around, we need to involve multiple timelines and fate!".

The developers have no qualms about absolutely muddying and overshadowing important aspects of the games for the sake of trying to be clever.
They seem to have the mistaken impression that you can add things onto a story and as long as the original thing is still there then the additions won't take anything away from it, totally missing the point that focus and clarity are two of the most important parts in telling a story.
The OG was never an ecological story, the Remake is probably more of it tbh. People focus on that but it was always a byproduct, as the OG borrowed from Cyberpunk on the idea of a company that would be above nations. I spent my first run going after Sephiroth and thinking "I will kill you, b*stard" which was the intended way of playing your first run.

Fate was always part of the OG story too, albeit only showed up once Meteor was invoked by Sephiroth - but there's this tiny bit where Aerith tells you about her fate in the prison cell in the Shinra tower so it was there from the beginning if you know what to look for. I consider this as just an expansion. As for multiple timelines, we're a far cry from what a real timeline looks like; it's more an implication of how the Lifestream functions which the devs have said they were expanding upon too. The multiple timelines aren't the focus at all, our world is.

I do have my qualms with this story, which is they don't let big moments breathe - except for the Tifa Lifestream scene in Gongaga, rather ironically because it's a whole new scene - and too many minigames (give me more main quest and less mini games for the next part I beg of you), however I will say that the way the Cloud and Tifa relationship has been handled shows a deep care. Personally I think that they never want to hear again women pitying Tifa (which is also why Cloud can never have romantic feelings for Aerith).
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
The OG was never an ecological story, the Remake is probably more of it tbh. People focus on that but it was always a byproduct, as the OG borrowed from Cyberpunk on the idea of a company that would be above nations. I spent my first run going after Sephiroth and thinking "I will kill you, b*stard" which was the intended way of playing your first run.

Fate was always part of the OG story too, albeit only showed up once Meteor was invoked by Sephiroth - but there's this tiny bit where Aerith tells you about her fate in the prison cell in the Shinra tower so it was there from the beginning if you know what to look for. I consider this as just an expansion. As for multiple timelines, we're a far cry from what a real timeline looks like; it's more an implication of how the Lifestream functions which the devs have said they were expanding upon too. The multiple timelines aren't the focus at all, our world is.

I do have my qualms with this story, which is they don't let big moments breathe - except for the Tifa Lifestream scene in Gongaga, rather ironically because it's a whole new scene - and too many minigames (give me more main quest and less mini games for the next part I beg of you), however I will say that the way the Cloud and Tifa relationship has been handled shows a deep care. Personally I think that they never want to hear again women pitying Tifa (which is also why Cloud can never have romantic feelings for Aerith).
You can debate on how essential the ecological aspect was to the themes of the original, but it's still a story that starts with bombing a power plant that is killing the planet by extracting the essence of life itself and turning it into power.
The point is that there is an entire universe of story potential there that flows naturally from that premise and perfectly lines up with all the events and worldbuilding that already exists in the game and that could easily resonate and amplify each other, and that this story is more topical even now than it was 27 years ago.

But instead they decided to focus on something that is very removed from human experience like destiny and alternate timelines, abstract transcendental things rather than something concrete and relatable. I find the decision to do that to be at least as perplexing as I would find the decision to make the lifestream some weird spectacle surrounding Aeriths death.

Hell, the fact that they MADE Aeriths death a spectacle despite always going on about its grounded nature shows you they're not above poisoning scenes for the sake of novelty and cheap intrigue.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
I think you're being too optimistic about the developers. Remember, these are the same developers who in the 2020s looked at a story about the ecological and social effects of sucking up the natural resources of the planet and decided "you know what, that isn't a poignant and topical enough subject to build a strong narrative around, we need to involve multiple timelines and fate!".

The developers have no qualms about absolutely muddying and overshadowing important aspects of the games for the sake of trying to be clever.
They seem to have the mistaken impression that you can add things onto a story and as long as the original thing is still there then the additions won't take anything away from it, totally missing the point that focus and clarity are two of the most important parts in telling a story.
See, again, this is where my original worries came from. The devs already fucked up two out of three times. With what they did to Aeriths death scene, literally anything is possible.

Time and time again throughout the re;trilogy the devs have shown they have no respect for the original, and have so far, trampled on so much of it.

It doesn't make sense for Cloud to realize he's deluded about Aerith when they return to the forgotten capital, because the lifestream sequence has already happened.

The lifestream sequence is "saving" Cloud from his mental struggles and delusions. He's supposed to come out the other end in his right mind.

So if Cloud is healed mentally after the lifestream, but he actually isn't because he still has delusions about Aerith, then it makes no sense and devalues the lifestream sequence. It's also insulting to Tifa, it's supposed to be her moment as a heroine but Aerith gets in the way of it.

And like I've said before, if Clouds' mind breaks after his delusions about Aerith are torn apart in the Northern Crater, then that's a heavy Clerith talking point. Two times Cloud sees Tifa "die" and yet it's only after Aerith died that he went to these lengths not to accept that Aerith is gone.

We are talking about Tetsuya Nomura here, a notoriously obnoxious guy when it comes to creating understandable stories. He has already been unkind to the idea of Cloud and Tifa being an item in the past. I don't think he would accept removing any and all different interpretations of his works, even if they are wrong.

Hell, if they had no problem giving Tifa so many moments in a game that was supposed to be Aeriths time to shine, I don't know *why they couldn't do the exact same thing to Tifa in part 3.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the re;trilogy is completely and utterly fucked.
 
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parkdon

Rookie Adventurer
See, again, this is where my original worries came from. The devs already fucked up two out of three times. With what they did to Aeriths death scene, literally anything is possible.

Time and time again throughout the re;trilogy the devs have shown they have no respect for the original, and have so far, trampled on so much of it.

It doesn't make sense for Cloud to realize he's deluded about Aerith when they return to the forgotten capital, because the lifestream sequence has already happened.

The lifestream sequence is "saving" Cloud from his mental struggles and delusions. He's supposed to come out the other end in his right mind.

So if Cloud is healed mentally after the lifestream, but he actually isn't because he still has delusions about Aerith, then it makes no sense and devalues the lifestream sequence. It's also insulting to Tifa, it's supposed to be her moment as a heroine but Aerith gets in the way of it.

And like I've said before, if Clouds' mind breaks after his delusions about Aerith are torn apart in the Northern Crater, then that's a heavy Clerith talking point. Two times Cloud sees Tifa "die" and yet it's only after Aerith died that he went to these lengths not to accept that Aerith is gone.

We are talking about Tetsuya Nomura here, a notoriously obnoxious guy when it comes to creating understandable stories. He has already been unkind to the idea of Cloud and Tifa being an item in the past. I don't think he would accept removing any and all different interpretations of his works, even if they are wrong.

Hell, if they had no problem giving Tifa so many moments in a game that was supposed to be Aeriths time to shine, I don't know they couldn't do the exact same thing to Tifa in part 3.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the re;trilogy is completely and utterly fucked.

It has nothing to do with the LS scene and the Aerith death scene
And Cloud was heartbroken because he was rejected by Tifa

(Edited by mod to remove anti-social comment).
 
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Hellenic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Hellenic
My take on this is as follows.
We have certain storybeats in the OG, and thematic concepts that apply to them.

There is the concrete plotpoint of Clouds psyche breaking
There is the concrete plotpoint of Clouds psyche being restored
We have inner story of Cloud no longer knowing who he is
We have the inner story of Cloud losing Tifas faith in him.

And if we simplify this we have a time of Clouds situation worsening, the moment of climax where things are at their worst and he breaks, a timespan where Cloud is broken, then a moment of healing and revelation that gives Cloud the power to deal with reality.

In general we should expect moments to fall into the area where they fit. For instance, post lifestream, when Cloud has the strength to deal with reality, he should no longer have to come to grips with Aeriths death. If a scene happens post lifestream where Cloud confronts Aerith it will be with him already in a state of acceptance of that fact.

That means that the realization of Aeriths death can essentially take 2 forms.
1: it is a moment of breaking where the realization of Aeriths death is the catalyst for Cloud breaking. In this version he sees what really happened prior to breaking, and post lifestream we'd see him accept Aeriths death.

2: It is a moment of accepting, where the mystery of what's going on with Aerith as well as Clouds identity issues cause Cloud to break, and it is through accepting the past and what really happened with Tifa in Nibelheim that he is able to honestly face what happened with Aerith. Which would probably place the scene where we see Aeriths death being a part of the lifestream sequence itself, with Tifa guiding him or something.

My gut feeling is that the first is more likely.
Definitely going with the first one there. Sephiroth will use the truth to break him down in North Crater.
 
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