SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rin]

Could you provide us some links? I'd really like to see these statements.

Here's Nojimas quote:


And heres Nomura's:


And here's a link to an article talking about how there is no love triangle in ff7, published post Rebirth launch.

 

[Sacky]

Neutral? I've always seen them argue like a Clerith though, so that smells.

Whenever someone starts a discussion saying im neutral or im a casual fan but then list points that only
a shipper would know. I also don't see how them not being a shipper makes any difference? if you have a bad
take its still a bad take regardless of being a shipper or not.

 

[Yoru]

Anyway, there's no need to analyze anything. Canon or not we don't care. The dates exist in the original game. They could have chosen to just copy them, but no, they chose to extend them. So that means they had to make choices. Knowing what to add and what not to add. And they deliberately chose to give Cloti a kiss. Why did they do that? Because that's where the game tends to go in its classic form. You think it's just fan service? Fair. But then why not give fan service to everyone if you don't care about respecting the narrative?


Exactly.

(And I refuse any justification involving hands when for weeks/months the trailer teasing a Clerith kiss was apparently irrefutable proof that the war was over.)

 

[abzy1200]

And still showed a kiss… go figure

Surely if all the dates are fanservice and removed from the narrative, then surely there wouldn't be a problem giving Aerith a kiss right?

These are the questions they need to start asking themselves.

 

[eleamaya]

We'll see. I guess you're right.

But the thing is, for me, the planet is Aerith. When she thinks the planet is talking to her and guiding her... it's really just her presence in the Lifestream. She's guiding herself.

It's a totally personal interpretation. It's just the way I've always seen Aerith in OG. Because at first glance, the planet isn't really on our side. It lives its life and thinks only of its own survival. To me, it summons the weapons to eradicate everyone on the surface and make a "reset". So in my mind, I've always interpreted this planet becoming "nice" and really starting to help us as Aerith taking the reins. Or at least being its good guardian.

The planet has been 'nice' since it cures Genesis and keep it as a hero who will comes arises when the planet is in danger.

Tbh, who is Minerva?

Flowers are symbol of the Planet. It wilts away just like the planet is dying and the mako is dry in Zack's world. It has always been in the church, blooming, without Aerith's care before she find it and after her death, because the springs is under the church's ground, as well as the flowers in Elmyra's house. Though, I dont deny that Nomura ever said Aerith is associated to the flowers.

 

[Yoru]

The planet has been 'nice' since it cures Genesis and keep it as a hero who will comes arises when the planet is in danger.

Tbh, who is Minerva?

Flowers are symbol of the Planet. It wilts away just like the planet is dying and the mako is dry in Zack's world. It has always been in the church, blooming, without Aerith's care before she find it and after her death, because the springs is under the church's ground, as well as the flowers in Elmyra's house. Though, I dont deny that Nomura ever said Aerith is associated to the flowers.

That's why I made it clear that this was just my personal interpretation of things, and that I was probably wrong in the end.

But I need to see way more of the Minerva/Genesis thing to really give weight to this eventuality. It's far too unclear even in Crisis Core.

I agree that flowers are a symbol of the planet. But the yellow flowers are still intrinsically linked to Aerith. The symbol of reunion etc. That's why the whole "follow them, the YELLOW flowers" thing still seems very Aerith centric.

In the end, it doesn't change much of what I wanted to explain. Whether it's the Planet or Aerith, "allowing" Zack (because strong will or not, someone/something has to be ok to bend the rules) to stick around is still a strong sign of his importance to Aerith. He's not just there to look pretty until Cloud can join Aerith in death.

 

[Hellenic]

Also, re: the translator subtly changing that quote, anyone still calling her Aeris in the last decade is immediately suspect to me.

I've never understood the attachment to the Aeris name personally. I adapted very quickly to Aerith after every single media after OG started using it and the whole fighting between the names is dumb to begin with.

 

[Hellenic]

Guys help im getting told Aeriths thank you is i love you in Japanese what level of copium is this now
This is the kinda stuff people are saying
"About the kiss scene, the devs seemingly chose to depict Cloud and Tifa's relationship as more physical because it's the only way they can express their affection at that point. They still have a lot of work to do to sort things out. On the other end, Aerith and Cloud hold hands the way only very close or married couples do in Japan, because the devs wanted to depict their bound as more emotional. Both girls represent very different archetypes of lovers, so it's only natural the relationships don't grow the same way but that doesn't mean one is more legit than the other. And for the "like" dialogue, Aerith is a lot clearer in Japanese but some of the subtlety is lost in translation. She uses two different words to say like, one being more platonic and the other more romantic and she implies very strongly she leans more on the second. When she says "thank you" later on, Cloud is totally taken off guard 'cause saying thank you in that context could be understood as "I love you". The interesting thing is FFX localisation team chose back in the day to translate the same thank you Yuna gave to Tidus as an I love you"

Did they perhaps get this idea from FF10 where Yuna does say "thank you" in japanese while she says "i love you" to Tidus in english? At least that comes to mind as an example of what they could base this stuff on.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I also want to address another thing that popped up earlier, and that's the idea that Cloud is eliding Zack from his memory so he can feel special, and that's not it. Cloud is trying to live on for Zack and honor his memory, but his mind is so fucked up that what he manages to cobble together is a house of cards heavily built from bits of Zack. He doesn't remember Zack at first because his subconscious won't let him remember Zack because Remembering Zack is both way too painful and might make his mind crack. Cloud doesn't want to forget Zack, he's mad at himself for forgetting Zack, for example. His mind just wouldn't let him remember until he had enough of his own mind built back up.

That's true that he likely is angry at himself for not remembering and his deep desire is to honor Zack.

I do think his ego is also part of it though. For several reasons.

Because of Toriyama's statement when you think of Cloud imagining another SOLDIER at the park with Aerith and that it adds depth to his character. He has a complicated feeling. Not a sad one a complicated one because yes it would break his mind and make him feel guilt. But I think also up till this point he was the coolest kid on the block we see him try to brag about his training and Jessie and Aerith indulge him and I do think this is because of his ego. And It's true that real Cloud deep inside would not want to dishonor Zack. But he calls him a loser too and in OG dialogue there was originally an option to be jealous.

Meaning there has to be some complexity as well.

I don't really think they put that dialogue option there in OG just to be like "ahh Cloud likes Aerith so he is jealous" but because of ego. Because of SOLDIER Cloud's ego specifically. (I mean maybe it was just for Aerith affection points?.. but I think it's more complicated even then) And I believe now in ReTrilogy they may have replaced that with complex feelings and calling him loser.

Finally I had a whole theory back before Rebirth about the play and how the way Cloud talks with Jessie and Aerith and they indulge him as being so cool and getting saved by him is part of Cloud's persona's insistence on wanting to be the hero. This desire comes from his childhood wish to be one for Tifa. And SOLDIER Cloud acts it out like a protagonist in a play. That play is a whole ego wonderland in my eyes. And an expression of the hero he wants to be.

And if we look at Loveless lore, and the costume hints in Ever Crisis mean anything then the real protagonist of that "play" is Zack. So there are layers here. He is standing in Zack's role currently.

So I think yes he loves Zack and misses him but also the devs are using the word complicated and let him so openly call him a loser. And I think it's because there is complicated feelings and I do think his ego and what this Zack guy represents to SOLDIER Cloud is definitely involved in that. at least up till he remembers Zack then feels horrible about it along with feeling like a failure, along with anger along with love.
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Also I noticed they made Zack also feel complicated towards Cloud in response in Japanese he does say "I hate you a little." in EN it's less "heard you been busy" probably because it's Zack who may be feeling jealousy over Aerith. Which that's interesting they added that but there is definitely complexity set up here with him. I don't think it's supposed to be love triangle bait as much as a commentary on the complex dynamic. This guy he saved basically took his "place" but also apparently his love. And he is nice about it but it must still hurt.

But I don't think like others have read it that this is romantic jealousy even in OG I think it's a commentary on his ego.

 

[null]

I've never understood the attachment to the Aeris name personally. I adapted very quickly to Aerith after every single media after OG started using it and the whole fighting between the names is dumb to begin with.

I will allow Aerith but I’m taking Cure2 to my grave.

 

[Yoru]

Also I noticed they made Zack also feel complicated towards Cloud in response in Japanese he does say "I hate you a little." in EN it's less "heard you been busy" probably because it's Zack who may be feeling jealousy over Aerith which that's interesting they added that but there is definitely complexity set up here.

Yup ! And it was good ! It's so sad they chose to change it in english.

It gives Zack depth. He's not just a empty shell who's a bit too stupid to have conflicting feelings.

Of course, he'll never hold a grudge against Cloud completely. Because it's not his fault per se. Zack was gone. And it's him at the end of Crisis Core who tells him to say hello to Aerith if he sees her (=I wish you could run into her and tell her what happened to me).

But it was interesting to show that yes, Zack really is in love, and it's hurting him.

 

[Hellenic]

The thing is. I don't know if they're lying or just in such denial they actually believe it. I just wonder what the Japanese speaking CA fans think of all this because one glance and these arguments fall apart.

It makes it so difficult also to talk about what is actually happening with Aerith.

Iirc some of the japanese CAs did want the devs to either remove the Highwind scene for Cloud and Tifa in the third game or put Aerith in there instead or such. To me that does tell that some do understand where everything is going and they want to try and avoid it at all cost.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Iirc some of the japanese CAs did want the devs to either remove the Highwind scene for Cloud and Tifa in the third game or put Aerith in there instead or such. To me that does tell that some do understand where everything is going and they want to try and avoid it at all cost.

It was actually a Japanese CA that gave me the quotes showing Cloud and Tifa's feelings are mutual and explained the nuances in detail to me. So yeah I do think there are those realize where endgame is going. Many just still appreciate the Clerith moments we do get.

That one specifically was defending Tifa in a thread I was in.

And yes they were 100% a Clerith. They believed Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith at some point and said they were going to continue to ship them forever but accepted his true self loved Tifa. They exist. *

 

[Hellenic]

If they are to address Aerith's feelings in Part 3, do you think there will still be an air of ambiguity or do you think we will get the clear picture of where she stands for both Cloud and Zack? I assume this would need to be discussed between ZA since Marlene told Zack that Aerith has feelings for Cloud.

What is a good way to address and resolve this in part 3 without be messy?

Also, throughout Remake and Rebirth, did you detect Cloud having any romantic feelings towards Aerith?

To be fair, Zack has no idea how Aerith and Cloud would have even met at this point. It's all too confusing to him at the moment and it definitely will be brought up between Zack and Aerith in the third game in some form i imagine.

I don't think it would be messy at all to be honest. Zack is a very understanding guy afterall and if he gets all the puzzle pieces in place, i'm sure he will understand it all just fine and not hold anything against Aerith.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I will allow Aerith but I’m taking Cure2 to my grave.

You're telling me it's not Cure2?

That's just blasphemy.

 

[nars305]

Anyway, there's no need to analyze anything. Canon or not we don't care. The dates exist in the original game. They could have chosen to just copy them, but no, they chose to extend them. So that means they had to make choices. Knowing what to add and what not to add. And they deliberately chose to give Cloti a kiss. Why did they do that? Because that's where the game tends to go in its classic form. You think it's just fan service? Fair. But then why not give fan service to everyone if you don't care about respecting the narrative?


Exactly.

(And I refuse any justification involving hands when for weeks/months the trailer teasing a Clerith kiss was apparently irrefutable proof that the war was over.)

That’s why I don’t understand the argument between optional and non-optional scene when the placement of a picture in an ultimania is relevant evidence to some people? Makes no sense.

Also, on the topic of these optional scenes, what if we look at the story strictly for the story? Ignoring ALL optional content?

When I think of that, what story beats do Cloud and Aerith have over Cloud and Tifa in Rebirth? I can’t say it’s the same, especially if you want to think about it romantically.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I don't know if it's just me but I treat everything as equally likely and I don't treat any option as optional. In anything. Ever.

Basically I don't dismiss anything. If it made into the made into the game it can't be for nothing. Someone made the choice to include it.

I try to look at it through the lens of intent why did the creator include this option surely it must be for some reason. Why did the creator give me the option of seeing this scene? Why was it included? Surely it must mean something.

Because creators can just throw stuff in for fun or Easter eggs sure but that doesn't mean options and alternative scenes etc are completely divorced from the original work or that they don't serve a purpose. They still give some information, they still tell us something.

 

[nars305]

I agree, I don’t dismiss optional things either. Especially talking about SE since they seem to put so much thought into things.

I’m just saying as far as the LTD, and for a proper debate, it can only be viewed from one basis- either optional things are considered or they are not.

Obviously this does not happen.

 

[Sacky]

I don't know if it's just me but I treat everything as equally likely and I don't treat any option as optional. In anything. Ever.

Basically I don't dismiss anything. If it made into the made into the game it can't be for nothing. Someone made the choice to include it.

I try to look at it through the lens of intent why did the creator include this option surely it must be for some reason. Why did the creator give me the option of seeing this scene? Why was it included? Surely it must mean something.

Because creators can just throw stuff in for fun or Easter eggs sure but that doesn't mean options and alternative scenes etc are completely divorced from the original work or that they don't serve a purpose. They still give some information, they still tell us something.

I have never seen ths optional argument except for this fandom. If a developer spends time and money recording animating and making each scene different with different composed tracks. Then they want you to view them all. They could have easily made every scene over the top fanservice yet they still felt they needed to make them story related and not confuse players. Thats why the kiss matters so much, its not about the actual kiss its about the message the devs are telling, Part 3 makes the most sense for the canon kiss anyway. Its also opened the floodgates of what they will show Cloud doing romantically.

 

[Hellenic]

Something else about the dream date is that when Aerith says "a place of memories," it immediatly cuts to Zack sitting a the church



I asked a Japanese person about it and they had this to say:
View attachment 16120

Sorry for not doing the thing you guys are doing with twitter posts, I don't really know how to do it.

Imagine thinking that everytime i thank someone, i'm proclaiming my romantic love to them . Context is everything guys.

Wait i just realized that Tifa also says "thank you" to Cloud in Remakes Chapter 14 resolution, so basically Tifa proclaiming romantic feelings confirmed /s.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Look I will be the first to admit it. And I don't care if they come for me. If Cloud and Aerith had an optional kiss scene in Rebirth you would never hear the end of it.
Heck, I too would be bringing it up at any moment I could.
And I know many agree with me and they don't like how much copium there is over that kiss.

I will not deny that the devs made a choice there and it was to give CT a kiss. No amount of it's optional changes that. And to me it's just disingenuous because by this logic the red dress scene in Wallmarket is just optional "fan service" too and I would rather not let go of that scene thank you.

So fair is fair.

And in any argument we have the responsibility to be fair.

 

[Rin]

I don't know if it's just me but I treat everything as equally likely and I don't treat any option as optional. In anything. Ever.

Basically I don't dismiss anything. If it made into the made into the game it can't be for nothing. Someone made the choice to include it.

I try to look at it through the lens of intent why did the creator include this option surely it must be for some reason. Why did the creator give me the option of seeing this scene? Why was it included? Surely it must mean something.

Because creators can just throw stuff in for fun or Easter eggs sure but that doesn't mean options and alternative scenes etc are completely divorced from the original work or that they don't serve a purpose. They still give some information, they still tell us something.

I'm the exact same way. I go back and replay everything to get every single scene and complete the entire playlog--even if it takes me a long time to do it because I want to see the entire story in full.

 

[Rin]

Look I will be the first to admit it. And I don't care if they come for me. If Cloud and Aerith had an optional kiss scene in Rebirth you would never hear the end of it.
Heck, I too would be bringing it up at any moment I could.
And I know many agree with me and they don't like how much copium there is over that kiss.

I will not deny that the devs made a choice there and it was to give CT a kiss. No amount of it's optional changes that. And to me it's just disingenuous because by this logic the red dress scene in Wallmarket is just optional "fan service" too and I would rather not let go of that scene thank you.

So fair is fair.

Sorry for double post but YES. This is exactly why the argument doesn't make sense to me. The red and high-low pink dress respectively are two cute & adorable Clerith moments locked behind "optional" gameplay. Why would I ever say it's not canon? Lmao sure I can choose to do no quests and get Aerith's worst dress where Cloud basically is like "wtf" and say the other two scenes don't exist/aren't canon but that's disingenuous as hell.

 

[Hellenic]

New claim: Tifa wasn't as into Cloud in Rebirth as she was in OG.........

Lemme guess. Yuffies saying Tifa had a big crush on Cloud when they were kids, while she got too busy in Midgar and forgot about him after? Understandably she didn't have time to think about him with how busy she got there, but let's be real here, Cloud appearing again essentially brought those feelings back up to the surface.

 

[Suffi]

There has been times were non clerith fans have made claims that are based on their opinions or interpretations and not get as much flak. As someone who stubbles in here once and awhile while searching for someone on Google, you guys really don’t make an effort to make it inclusive to other interpretations of the very ambiguous narrative.